Road Cycling - Cilicher or Tubular tires?

what is the difference? why should i use euther?

Clinchers are held on the rims by a raised lip. They tend to weigh slightly more and in general, are tougher. They are by far the most common tire, these days.

Tubulars are sewn around the tube and then glued onto the rim. It is much more complex to fix a flat. Some people can detect a more supple feel or claim less rolling resistance, but for the vast majority, I don't think it is noticeable. Tubulars also tend to be more expensive.

Unless you are an elite road racer and have a pressing desire to ride tubulars, I'd stick with clinchers.

Paul

I dunno, tubulars are usually "tougher" (higher tpi - threads per inch), are WAY faster to change than a clincher (providing you prepared for everything), simply grab the tire and "rip" it off the rim, and put your new pre-glued tire on the rim, inflate and go. A little practice and you're off and rolling again in 5-7 minutes. Yanking a tube out of a clincher with some flimsy tire irons and then remounting everything usually takes me a good 20-30 minutes on the side of the road.

Rolling resistance? A good tubular should be able to run up to around 180-190psi, which makes the 120psi in a good clincher seem...well, flat. :)

The bad stuff? Not so much cost, although the cheapest clinchers are cheaper than the cheapest tubulars, the wheels are about the same price wise. The bad is that most bike shops will only stock one maybe two brands of tubulars (some don't stock any, some stock more) and multiple brands of clinchers. Need a new wheel in a hurry? You are probably out of luck, most bike shops will stock a 700c Shimano compatible clincher wheelset, good luck finding a tubular setup in stock. Gluing tires to the rims the first couple of times can be a messy treat.

And in the end, it probably doesn't make that much of a difference.

Andrew

I would be too worried about changing a tubular if I get a flat. Clinchers are more convenient if you get a flat IMO.

Nope, like AJ said just rip off the tire, mount the preglued
spare and your off (after you pump it up to a good
130 psi), just don't go too hard in the corners you should be
fine.
I ride tubulars, and find I get less flats than with clinchers
and pinch flats are a thing of the past.
Oh yeah, you can ride home on a flat tubular if you need to,
the tire is still glued to the rim, it just has no air in it.

One might try the Tufo Tubular/Clincher tire to get a feel for
the ride of tubulars.

One thing tho NEVER BUY CHEAP TUBULARS.
(thank you D*Alex).

Marty

Good points, Ajay. I was thinking more in terms of the whole unstiching restiching process--something that is rarely done by the side of the road.

Paul

Originally posted by lotek
Oh yeah, you can ride home on a flat tubular if you need to,
the tire is still glued to the rim, it just has no air in it.

What effect would that have on the wheel?

Originally posted by mossi
what is the difference? why should i use euther?
please also remember that you don't really have a "choice" unless you go out and buy yourself a new wheelset. if you have clincher rims, then you have to use clincher tires.

Good points, Ajay. I was thinking more in terms of the whole unstiching restiching process--something that is rarely done by the side of the road.

Ahhh, yea well that is the "bad" side of tubulars. When you do get a flat, it's a royal pain to patch it up compared to a clincher, and more than a few people just throw them away and buy new tires, which is great for those of us with a little patience if we can find somebody like that (get lots of free tires that way!).


What effect would that have on the wheel?

For the most part, nothing, granted it's probably not good for the wheel but if you don't hit anything (potholes, etc) you're probably no worse for wear). At one of the state time trial championship a couple of years ago a guy flattened one of his tubulars (front I believe) and rode the last 8-10 miles on the flat and still won the event (so he was still going quite fast).

I think people get put off by the look of the rim and the tire, not trusting the glue, etc. But trust me, a glued on tubular is on there REALLY good and it's a royal pain to rip one off. When I said it takes about 5 minutes to change the tire, 4 and half minutes of that is going to be spent trying to work a spot to get some leverage on the tire to get it off, the next 30 seconds is putting the tire on and filling it with air, you'll also swear a lot while doing it :)

Once you start riding them, you'll never go back.

Andrew

When I put my sew-ups on, it's like going from a Chevette to a Porsche. That's how much of a difference it is for me.

They're a ***** to change though. Maybe I'm just not strong enough but they were almost impossible to get back on. I though they had a rep for that.

And the Conties that I use are inflatable to 190 psi. Never wanted to ride on that hard a tire though.

If you don't want to hassle with opening up a tubular
to repair it (and it isn't all that difficult) you can
send them to Tire Alert (http://www.tirealert.com) in
florida, he repairs them for $20 each, $15 each if 2 or more.
another good thing to do with old tubulars is donate them
to a developmental or junior racing team in your area.

Deliriou5, well now you can ride "tubulars" on a clincher
rim, thats the thing with the Tufo Tubular Clincher (I know
it sounds weird!), its a tubular tire with a bead.
I'm attaching a pic from the Tufo site of this type of tire.

Marty

oh pretty interesting! thanks for the info!!

Those Tufo's are intrigueing. I heard that braking a lot on long twisting descents could affect the glue holding tubulars onto the wheel. Is this true, or just somebody that didn't perform a proper installation?

"Edit"
Just checked out the Tufo site, and some places to buy them online. Tufo tubular clinchers aren't any more expensive than good clinchers tires. The S33 has a much higher inflation pressure than clinchers, which should give less rolling resistance. Not sure what a 28" tire is, unless they mean a 700X28 tire. Tufo has a sealant you can use with their tubulars, which might be like slime, which will fix a flat in a couple of minutes. Might have to pursue this further with a couple of the dealers in my area.

Originally posted by mossi
what is the difference? why should i use euther?

Hello......there have been a 1000 threads totalling over a million postings on this very subject here on Bike Forums! :D

I seem to remember that the reason Beloki crashed on the TdF this year was because his tyre fell off (the intense heat melted the glue). On second thought, the crash could have pulled his tyre off the rim, but even so... Paul Sherwin mentioned this before and after Beloki's crash, so presumably it's not a rare occurance. I'm no expert, but I'm not sure if I'd trust stitchers. And surely you'd have to wait ages for the glue to dry before you went back out.

Well George, you won't need to waste your time reading it then.

I seem to remember that the reason Beloki crashed on the TdF this year was because his tyre fell off (the intense heat melted the glue). On second thought, the crash could have pulled his tyre off the rim, but even so... Paul Sherwin mentioned this before and after Beloki's crash, so presumably it's not a rare occurance.

Beloki crashed because he was going to fast into the turn and used to much rear brake causing him to lose the back end (probably because the pavement was a little slippery). His tire didn't roll off until it hit the pavement when the slide got over-corrected. The heat probably did have something to do with it, not the heat of the braking, but the heat of the road itself.

The glue used to mount a tubular is basically contact cement, so when your rim temp rises to around 140 degree's you'll start to lose some of the effectiveness of the glue, usually at 140 degrees the glue retains around 60-70% of it's original bonding strength.

But here's something important, the air pressure in the tire is what really keeps the tire on the rim in all but the most extreme circumstances, like heavy cornering, side loads, etc. If tubulars were so dangerous nobody would ride them, especially guys that are trying to win the biggest bike race in the world. There were 7 mountain stages this year, many of them with multiple climbs and screaming decents, nobody rolled a tire except Beloki (again with mitigating circumstances).


I'm no expert, but I'm not sure if I'd trust stitchers. And surely you'd have to wait ages for the glue to dry before you went back out.

There's just a ton of bad information out there about tubulars, who knows where it comes from. You can safely ride a tubular in 24 hrs (remember contact cement and how it works and bonds with itself), and that is truly a VERY safe time limit.

Ask around to anybody who rides tubulars and ask them if they've ever rolled a tire or every saw (not heard of some guy from a friend of a friend of a friend) somebody roll a tire, there won't be that many positive answers.

Check out - http://www.engr.ukans.edu/~ktl/bicycle/Tubular.html for a lot of good information on sewups from a geeky technical sense.

Ride them and you'll be hooked!

Andrew

just the fact that you can inflate a tubular to 80-100 psi MORE than a clincher is totally worth all the hassle. (which is blown out of proportions to begin with, seemingly by people who really want to ride tubulars but can't give up the apparent convenience of clinchers.) imagine the rolling resistence at 210 psi as opposed to 110. much less of your tire touches the ground. they are all about power efficiency and that's why they are ridden in the TDF.

changing a flat consists of ripping the busted tire off the rim, putting another one on and pumping. if you're used to doing it, it takes just a couple of minutes.

besides that, tubulars are TOTALLY OLD SKOOL PUNK ROCK and clinchers are, well, just flat. :)

Originally posted by rnhood
Well George, you won't need to waste your time reading it then.
ok...

Originally posted by Ajay213
Yanking a tube out of a clincher with some flimsy tire irons and then remounting everything usually takes me a good 20-30 minutes on the side of the road.


Oh my god...you must be doing something wrong then. You can usually fix a flat clincher in about 8 minutes or less. What takes a lot of time is inflating the tire to 100+ psi with those mini-pumps, but then that applies to both clincher and tubular tires. With tubbies, you need to carry a whole spare tire with you. With clinchers, a spare tube and possibly a patch kit (that will get you through two flats on your ride).

I'd like to learn how to install a tubular tire and then ride one, but I can't help but think that after reading the instructions on how to install a tubular tire, it isn't worth the extra hassles for the supposed benefits. Then again I rarely flat, so once I install a tire, it's on there until it wears out.

I have just switched to thew Tufo tires. I would say that this are as close to tubulars as you can get, I have ridden both. They are not that hard to install, just follow the the directions, and you can be done in about 5mins. The sealant that you can buy will close a 1/4" slash in the wheel.
After about 100 miles on them they fell faster than the Conti Grand Prix. If you are a larger rider the extra PSI would be nice. The CS33 sell for about $40. My LBS told me that they a tandums that swear by the Tufo tire.
Go buy a set, I don't think you will go back.
Dave

FYI i am a complete novice, but i brought my dads old race bike to school a couple weeks ago and the tires were dry so i had to replace em. i went to the bike store and got a couple tubulars and some glue and just followed the directions. it took me probably 1-1.5 hours to do both wheels, but i didnt run into any problems really other than how to deal with the glue. and i got the tubulars for $20 a piece, which is pretty cheap IMO. although they're rated for only 120 psi. im not a serious rider though so 120 is enough for now.

btw i asked my dad about it and he said the same thing these guys are saying. basically if you get a flat, you just have a spare tire with you and just throw it on there and dont take any hard corners for a while :D he raced for a long time and said he never rolled a tire.

Tubulars sound intersting I must say, only information I'm a bit vague on is repairing a flat, how is it done actualy?

I think the rims for tubulars are stronger due to the cross sectional design ???

It's funny, but several of the pro teams are riding very high end clinchers (Michelins for example...Axial Pros, before and Pro Race, now) because the rolling resistance is negligable. While he races on tubulars, even Lance himself rides clinchers (Hutchinson) on his training rides.

When I raced (cat 2), I trained on clinchers and raced on tubulars...but then I was given parts like an entire wheelset for the tubulars. I ride on Michelin Pro Race now, and I cannot tell the difference, except that the Michelins are more durable...you can get more miles out of them.

BTW, if you have a stationary trainer, don't use tubulars on it unless you have a nice big tire budget.

i just thought of a possible drawback to tubulars. is you inflate your tubulars to 180 psi, where your clinchers are only 110 psi, the extra air in the tubulars will actually make them heavier. any body know how much of a weight difference this makes?

I think there will be about 40 grams more air in each tire, but this will act more like static weight than rotating weight, since it isnt firmly attached to the inside of the tube.

i just thought of a possible drawback to tubulars. is you inflate your tubulars to 180 psi, where your clinchers are only 110 psi, the extra air in the tubulars will actually make them heavier. any body know how much of a weight difference this makes?



The weight of the extra air in your tires can be calculated, but it is so small as to have no effect for our purposes. I checked into the Tufo tubular clinchers, and am still intrigued by them. I e-mailed Bontrager about my wheels handling the extra pressure, and they replied that they don't test clincher rims to tubular pressures, so they recommended against it. That was their lawyers talking. Tufo told me the tire pressure is outside the clincher sidewall, so it won't hurt the wheel. With the Tufo sealant, I imagine flats would not occur, or would be fixed easily.

Funny that the subject of weight is only coming up now. I thought *that* was the main reason racers used them. A Mavic Reflex rim is about 2 oz. lighter than an Open Pro. And the weight reduction is way out there at the circumferance.

I have a set of Tufo S33 tubular clinchers that I got partly for the reason Lotek suggested, although I kinda cheaped out... they offer a higher tpi model. I mainly bought them as a foul weather tire, but I digress. The ride of this mediocre tubular at a high psi is comparable to good clinchers that will handle similar inflation pressures. I do notice the extra weight from the tubular/clincher construction.

There are clinchers that will handle adequately high psi's, e.g. Vredestein Fortezza Tri-comps (145 psi) or Vittoria Open Corsa's (180 psi). I *would* worry about rim failure, running 180 psi in a clincher.

Also, there is ongoing debate about whether tire pressures higher than around 100 psi increases or decreases rolling resistance. The discussions don't adequately address variables like pavement surfaces and rider weight, and I have no way of measuring. IMO, When speed is important, I ride one of the tires listed above, and pump it up around 145 psi. It certainly feels faster.

I also have to chime in on Ajay's comment on a clincher taking 25 minutes to change... perhaps he only has one arm? ;) Or perhaps is patching the tube, rather than replacing it? I can typically replace a tube in 6 or 7 minutes, and with my full length frame pump, get the tire up to 120psi in 2 or 3 minutes. Far as that goes, I typically only have to do this once a year. Not enough to make tire repair time a big consideration.

That time is with patching the tube, not replacing it. In either case using a set of tire irons and wrestling the tire off and on the rim can be a HUGE pain in the butt. I'm currently riding clinchers and the last set I put on my bike (a set of cheap Specialized tires for training) took me almost an hour to mount, that included a beer and a lot of swearing to get them on the rim. Granted this is a "worst case" and is no doubt the worst experience in mounting a clincher I've ever had. But it still doesn't change the fact that I can change a tubular faster than you can change the tube in a clincher by the side of the road.

And the whole thing with tire pressures, I've heard the same, although at a higher pressure (I'm a rookie rider compared to high mileage guys and pros and I can tell the difference between 100 and 140psi), but if that were really the case those guys riding on ultra-smooth velodromes wouldn't be so anal about getting a bazillion psi in their tires.

Andrew

I know the debate over high pressure/lower pressure I'm never quite satisified with their answers. Personaly I like my Vrederstein Fortezza pumped up to around 130-140 and rest of my road tires I like at 120psi.

I've seen the glue tape around lately for tubulars anyone use that?

Kev,

I just glued on a pair of Sprinters using the Tufo Glue tape. Its pretty easy to use, gives a nice clean wheel
quickly. Is ready to ride as soon as you pump up the tire.
The only thing I don't like about it is that it usually comes off with the tire
when you demount it, which means carrying an extra glue strip for fixing flats.
If you are using Tufo tires not a problem, just use their slime
type stuff.
I've also heard it will take the base tape off your tires if
you try to remove it (too quickly?). Of course I found out
after mounting the sprinters.
Much better than the old Jantex tape, not nearly as messy.

Marty

That brings me to another question lotek, I've seen the Tufo slime type stuff for their tires. It always mentions use with Tufo tires is this just marketing or will it work with other tires as well?

I know the debate over high pressure/lower pressure I'm never quite satisified with their answers.
Exactly. The proponent (on whichever side) has a strong opinion, which is stated as immutable fact, but never provides information as to how they have determined it to be the case. Which makes it little more than superstition, in my book. And, if I'm going to be superstitious, I might as well use my own superstitions. ;)

Ajay/Andrew,

I'm going to risk raising somebodies hackles... in the frequent "best tire" discussions, Specialized only seems to get high marks in the durability category (the Armadillo tires). The last pair of Specialized tires I bought (Turbo S, or something), I hated so much that I took them back off after several rides. For the next two years, I would remount them at some point thinking that they really couldn't have been that bad, and would wind up removing them again after several rides. Since they were almost new, I eventually mounted them on a bike that I sold on e-bay. Good riddance. Since then, they've eliminated the aspect that I didn't like on those tires... a thick, soft, layer of rubber on the rolling surface that always felt like you were riding through 1/8" of mud. But it put me off Specialized tires permanently.

That brings me to another question lotek, I've seen the Tufo slime type stuff for their tires. It always mentions use with Tufo tires is this just marketing or will it work with other tires as well?
At the risk of stealing Lotek's thunder... :o

Take a look at this thread (http://www.velonews.com/phorum3/read.php?f=2&i=22235&t=22008#reply_22235) in the VeloNews forum. Most of the discussion doesn't apply, Lowrider's post indicates that it works better than slime. Elsewhere, I've read that it doesn't thicken as much as slime at cold temps (which causes heavy spots in the wheel).

There's some other pertinent discussion there as well... you might want to go just search for Tufo sealant.

I remember reading about tire pressure a while ago basicaly they sat on the bike and went down a hill. Okie this would be a fairly consistent test, and accurate if we did not pedal :)

Now I might be completely wrong here I admit, but when you are pedaling on the bike you are forcing the bike downwards and when you are really pushing it you can visibly see the tires compress under the pressure of you're pedaling. NOw this must effect the rolling resistence correct? Now how could you test this, we are humans and don't always pedal with same intensity so having even the same rider try difference pressures on a straight away you would get different results even with the same tire. I guess you could get a machine to do this type of test but real world is different then a labatory doing testing alot of times. So in the end I figured I will use what feels best to me :)

Roadbuzz, ya'll can steal my thunder, just leave my bike
alone :D

I don't use the sealant, and I'm not using TUFO tires. There's something about a nonrepairable tire (tubular) that just bugs me. Ok, I know that putting the sealant
is repairing it, but with a real tubular you can replace the
entire tube if you so desire. I do hear that it will repair up to a 1/4 inch cut. Like the tape I believe it will work
with all tires.
Marty

I'm going to risk raising somebodies hackles... in the frequent "best tire" discussions, Specialized only seems to get high marks in the durability category (the Armadillo tires). The last pair of Specialized tires I bought (Turbo S, or something), I hated so much that I took them back off after several rides. For the next two years, I would remount them at some point thinking that they really couldn't have been that bad, and would wind up removing them again after several rides. Since they were almost new, I eventually mounted them on a bike that I sold on e-bay. Good riddance. Since then, they've eliminated the aspect that I didn't like on those tires... a thick, soft, layer of rubber on the rolling surface that always felt like you were riding through 1/8" of mud. But it put me off Specialized tires permanently.

Oh I knew they were going to be cheezy tires when I bought them, and they were purchased at the beginning of this season and they "feel" fine when riding, obviously nothing like a good high end tire, but I don't have that spongy feeling either. They've been wearing nicely, and I have yet to have a flat with them (knock on carbon fiber), despite riding through some absolute junk on the sides of the streets. Now of course the first time I do get a flat, I'm going back to something a lot higher up the quality chain, spending that much time mounting tires was just an absolute pain.

Kev, you're right about pedaling and the force transfer while riding. Just coating down a hill will tell you a little something, but it won't tell you everything. In essence, unless you could setup some type of machine that will allow you to reproduce riding style exactly the same for each tire tested, it will be real hard to get a true scientific difference between them.

Andrew

Roadbuzz, ya'll can steal my thunder, just leave my bike
alone :D
Lessee. Did you have a Serotta? With good tubulars? Better keep it locked up! ;)

Lotek can't you repair Tubulars? I found some info on the net, about unlacing the side of them where the whole is and patching it, or replacing whole tube.. I'm still not positive I understand this fullsetup but still sounds like fun :)

Lotek can't you repair Tubulars?

Repairing tubulars is dead simple; you pay someone who knows what they're doing. Mail order, no problem

Tubs for racing; lighter, faster. 'Lightweight' the best. Take your compatible clinchers with you and put them in the service car or beside the track/crit circuit. Change wheel when punctured.

Clinchers for training. Specialised Armadillos are bulletproof; or take superduper tyre levers (several kinds available), spare tubes and CO2 inflator. Kysirium (spelling?) v.good - good enough to race, not as good as tubs.

Easy. Problem solved with mucho $$$$$$.

Tufo Tubulars are NOT repairable. The seam which is
under the base tape of a normal tubular is under the carcass of the tire (Tread) on the Tufo's,
there is no way to open up the tire.
On a regular tubular you can cut the stitching, pull out the tube (a small amount), and apply a patch just like a
tube on a clincher, push the tube back in, resew the tire
and reseal the base tape (with liquid latex) and your good to go (hopefully). Yeah its a pain, but it gives you something to do during those long winter nights :D .
There's also a guy in Fla (I don't have the link right now)
who repairs tubulars for $20 a tire ($15 if more than one)
It makes sense when you're riding $100 tubular tires.
Marty

Okay, maybe I'm picky. And I don't get many flats, but I don't like to ride on patched tubes. They go *bump* *bump* *bump*... okay, it's a little more subtle than that, but I notice it. I'd think a patched tubular would have the same problem.

tire alert (tirealert.com) will take apart your flatten tubulars and and put in a new inner tube and sew it back up...like new...only it will be your old tire casing. this is great for a $80 tubular that gets flat after a few rides...which rarely happens, but does every now and then. Tubulars when new tend not to flatten easily...not sure if thats because the rider is very carefull when an expensive tubular is just mounted or if the casing is that much tougher.

Fogrider,

thanks for the link, thats the guy I was thinking about.
This makes sense for expensive tubulars (anything over say $50.

Marty

Scientific studies have proven that tubulars have lower rolling resistence than clinchers. Essentialy what it comes down to is tire design and pressure. Pressure is obvious. The less a tire deforms under a riders weight the lower the rolling resistence. Rolling resistence is measured in Crr%

For instance:

100psi = .28 Crr%
150psi = .22 Crr%
200psi = .19 Crr%

This is also relative to the riders weight. A 100 lb rider may not deform a tire at 90 psi so any pressure over that is not relevant.

The surface your riding on also makes a difference.
The same tire inflated to 6.8atm (100 psi) has the following resistence:

Linoleum: 0.19
Concrete: 0.17
Smooth Asphalt: 0.22

On rough pavement rolling resisitence can easily double

So, what should you look for in a tire?
Tire casings made of thin strands silk, nylon, and kevlar are best. Inner tubes of latex are best as well. Obviously the smoother the tread the better. Find yourself a tire made of silk with a latex tube and smooth tread. Ride it on your favorite concrete surface and your almost gauranteed to fly.

Data from the same tire inflated to 100 psi:

baseline (butyl tube): .28 Crr%
latex tube: .23
butylized latex tube: .25
polyurethane tube: .29
tire liner with latex tube .54
thick latex liner with latex tube: .32

As a side note, any of the Mr. Tuffy type tire liners easily double rolling resistence. Tires with re-inforcing bands or the use of tube sealants offer lower rolling resistence but its still high. On my Mtn. bike I use kevlar re-inforced tires, Mr. Tuffy and heavy duty inner tubes. Ouch!!!!

All of this information is from, High Tech Cycling, second edition, by Edmund R. Burke. Chapter 1, selecting cycling Equiptment by Chester R. Kyle, Phd, Department of Mechanical Engineering, California State University at Long Beach.

Hi,
I am hoping to get a new wheelset with my tax refund. I have been toying with the idea of tubulars; but I remember the old days (late Sixties, early Seventies) too well. Worse, I weigh 250 and that is what I want to ask around about. Are tubulars out for Clydesdales? Mostly when you see a tubular rim it's the Reflex; should I look at something beefier? And what would be a good tire for a guy who prefers comfort to the bone rattling ride I have seen on some bikes?

Late,
I know alot of big guys who ride tubulars. The Reflex
rim is pretty beefy with the box construction.
The only one I'd be concerned with is the Helium rim,
it was lightweight and prone to breaking.
If you're really concerned about it I'd look into some NOS rims like the Campy Omitron, Superchampion Gentleman etc. Renaissance Cycles has them and others
if you need a source.
Marty