View Full Version : Parking in America
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/10/01/parking/index1.html
I thought this was a good article about parking in America.
I am very big on making the person park in a central location.
Nightshade
10-02-07, 10:34 AM
Ever wonder where to get more farm ground to raise more food on could
be found?? Well, here it is.........
Ya, our national/city planners are a smart bunch! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Cosmoline
10-02-07, 11:34 AM
It's an interesting, if depressing, subject. Roads are bad enough, but when you think about all the incredibly useful space cars take up from rural farmland to downtowns it really throws their evil into stark relief. Future generations, if there are any, will look back on us as a unique breed of loonatics.
Every study , every article (including this one)
point to the user as the source of the problem. Yet we keep pumping money, death, and technology into the problem. Rather than fixing the problem at the source.
One day we will wake up and elect leaders who are going to make driving a motor vehicle more responsible and efficient.
bmclaughlin807
10-02-07, 12:06 PM
One day we will wake up and elect leaders who are going to make driving a motor vehicle more responsible and efficient.
Excuse me a second while I die laughing. ;)
Excuse me a second while I die laughing. ;)
Mee too. That will never happen.
Mr. Jim
10-02-07, 01:25 PM
Mee too. That will never happen.
+1
Bushman
10-02-07, 02:04 PM
HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!! I wish you luck with that pipedream.
Artkansas
10-02-07, 02:51 PM
America has a problem. Sooner or later the acres of parking spaces will vie for land with the acres of land being devoted to growing corn for Ethanol. Then which one wins?
Ever wonder where to get more farm ground to raise more food on could
be found?? Well, here it is.........
Ya, our national/city planners are a smart bunch! :rolleyes::rolleyes:
I'll turn that around on you and say our citizens, who demand the most parking from each and every development and refuse to walk more than 100 feet at any given time, are a smart bunch :rolleyes:
Mee too. That will never happen.
Maybe if this sub-forum started its own jurisdiction and held elections, we WOULD see those changes.
Maybe if this sub-forum started its own jurisdiction and held elections, we WOULD see those changes.
Wow...simply...wow.
Wow...simply...wow.
Well, a man can dream...
Well, a man can dream...
It's possible even if not likely in real life. For an interesting theoretical exercise, check out the Wooten Park Drive area in north central Austin. Currently a two-block stretch of dilapidating 1970s fourplexes and 8-plexes, it's right in the middle of one of the best areas of Austin for car free living. I could imagine (in theory) a zoning overlay for car free living in that area and a few not too expensive infrastructure improvements. Is the demand there? I don't know, and that's the key problem when we talk about any possibilities for car free urban development.
So, would this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo4MpO3kBRE) be the norm in this fictional community? Somehow I think so.
Newspaperguy
10-02-07, 06:54 PM
Ever wonder where to get more farm ground to raise more food on could
be found?? Well, here it is.........
Here in British Columbia, farmland in the province has been set aside in the Agricultural Land Reserve since 1972. If land is deemed as agricultural, it's extremely difficult to get it taken out of the land reserve for development of any sort. The commission that oversees the land reserve is set up in such a way that it does not have to bow to the government of the day. And the provincial government cannot overrule a decision by the land commission.
bmclaughlin807
10-02-07, 08:28 PM
Maybe if this sub-forum started its own jurisdiction and held elections, we WOULD see those changes.
It's not that far-fetched... this on a larger scale: Cohousing (http://cohousing.org/default.aspx)
bmclaughlin807
10-02-07, 08:30 PM
It's possible even if not likely in real life. For an interesting theoretical exercise, check out the Wooten Park Drive area in north central Austin. Currently a two-block stretch of dilapidating 1970s fourplexes and 8-plexes, it's right in the middle of one of the best areas of Austin for car free living. I could imagine (in theory) a zoning overlay for car free living in that area and a few not too expensive infrastructure improvements. Is the demand there? I don't know, and that's the key problem when we talk about any possibilities for car free urban development.
I'd point you to the Cohousing (http://cohousing.org/default.aspx) website as well.. they're DOING things like this!
I'd point you to the Cohousing (http://cohousing.org/default.aspx) website as well.. they're DOING things like this!
That's an excellent link, thanks very much. I hadn't made the connection.
As I mentioned, Wooten Park Drive is a two block long stretch of nothing but old 4- and 8-plexes. The neighborhoods surrounding are in mostly a grid layout with wide, low traffic residential streets. There is excellent old style small-box urban retail nearby. The distances are just a bit longer than ideal for pedestrian living but absolutely perfect for bicycling. It's crawling with cyclists and there is good transit nearby, including a commuter rail line scheduled to begin operating next year. I think sufficient employment exists nearby and on the transit lines.
Wooten Park Drive is actually the northern extension of a street called Woodrow, which is very close to being a bicycle highway to north central Austin. Also, it runs parallel to the arterial Anderson Lane, which is lined by small-box retail.
Here's what could be done with Wooten Park Lane in a cohousing context. You could close it off to traffic and move all the existing parking to one or two lots in the middle of the strip. Turn Wooten Park Drive into an urban plaza with of course bike lanes and sidewalks. Connect the plaza in several places to the retail and parking facilities one block over, on Anderson Lane.
Aerial photo (Google Maps) (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Wooten+Park+Dr,+Austin,+TX+78757,+USA&ie=UTF8&ll=30.353694,-97.723281&spn=0.002963,0.005187&t=h&z=18&om=1)
So, would this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo4MpO3kBRE) be the norm in this fictional community? Somehow I think so.
I've never advocated critical mass.
It's not that far-fetched... this on a larger scale: Cohousing (http://cohousing.org/default.aspx)
I've always liked this idea. I think many gentrifying urban neighborhoods are often very much like this, although not on the explicit level that cohousing is. It's a shame that this idea is seen by many as such a fringe thing. It shouldn't be. Americans are so disconnected and isolationist, it's appalling.
Aerial photo (Google Maps) (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Wooten+Park+Dr,+Austin,+TX+78757,+USA&ie=UTF8&ll=30.353694,-97.723281&spn=0.002963,0.005187&t=h&z=18&om=1)
Fascinating development pattern there. Seems like 183 does what you would expect - tears apart the well-connected street grid. Interesting mix of densities. When was this originally developed?
Bushman
10-03-07, 12:31 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo4MpO3kBRE
wow, attacking an handicapped elderly couple. Way for Critical M*******s to respect their elders. Great way of getting your point across. I'm surprised they did'nt pull the elderly lady out and rape and torture her.
:rolleyes:
...Wooten Park Drive in Austin...
Aerial photo (Google Maps) (http://maps.google.com/maps?q=Wooten+Park+Dr,+Austin,+TX+78757,+USA&ie=UTF8&ll=30.353694,-97.723281&spn=0.002963,0.005187&t=h&z=18&om=1)
Fascinating development pattern there. Seems like 183 does what you would expect - tears apart the well-connected street grid. Interesting mix of densities. When was this originally developed?
The area to the south was developed around 1960, the one to the north around 1975.
The Burnet Road / Anderson Lane area is a good location for car free cycling mainly because the traffic grid lets you avoid the arterials. Real estate and rental ads sometimes say "you don't need a car in this area." The old small box retail in that area is being recycled into funky little shops and small restaurants. Most importantly the neighborhood still seems to support local grocery stores, pharmacies, five(!) bike shops, post office, etc.
The best thing about small box retail is how it can pack so much variety into a small area.
Hwy 183 in that particular area isn't a bad barrier to bikes. It's elevated. There are several places to cross under it as a ped or on a bike.
bmclaughlin807
10-03-07, 01:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bo4MpO3kBRE
wow, attacking an handicapped elderly couple. Way for Critical M*******s to respect their elders. Great way of getting your point across. I'm surprised they did'nt pull the elderly lady out and rape and torture her.
:rolleyes:
??????
I fail to see the relevance to this thread....
??????
I fail to see the relevance to this thread....
http://eatourbrains.com/EoB/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/troll.jpg
wahoonc
10-03-07, 03:34 AM
Interesting article...and a sad commentary on American life. We own a small retail shop in a smallish town (>10,000) we are in the process of a downtown "revitalization" and of course the first question was..."what about more parking" the consultant pointed out all the empty spaces, they just happen to NOT be directly in front of the stores;). FWIW we had a customer use the no parking excuse/parking too far away to justify why she shopped at the big box competition store an hour away:rolleyes: Just to satisfy my curiosity the next time I was in that area with my work truck I took my measuring wheel and parked in the closest available space to the big box store and rolled the wheel from my truck to the front door. It was a straight line and was a bit over 400'. I did the same thing from the corner city parking lot that is diagonally across from our shop...distance was under 300'. It is all a matter of perception. Personally I think it may change for the better as oil prices continue to escalate. But the hardest part of the equation will be the retraining of people that have gotten stuck in the rut, so to speak.
Aaron:)
Interesting article...and a sad commentary on American life. We own a small retail shop in a smallish town (>10,000) we are in the process of a downtown "revitalization" and of course the first question was..."what about more parking" the consultant pointed out all the empty spaces, they just happen to NOT be directly in front of the stores;). FWIW we had a customer use the no parking excuse/parking too far away to justify why she shopped at the big box competition store an hour away:rolleyes: Just to satisfy my curiosity the next time I was in that area with my work truck I took my measuring wheel and parked in the closest available space to the big box store and rolled the wheel from my truck to the front door. It was a straight line and was a bit over 400'. I did the same thing from the corner city parking lot that is diagonally across from our shop...distance was under 300'. It is all a matter of perception. Personally I think it may change for the better as oil prices continue to escalate. But the hardest part of the equation will be the retraining of people that have gotten stuck in the rut, so to speak.
Aaron:)
Mall designers know a lot about the psychology of walking. Have you ever noticed how your sight lines are constantly being broken in a mall? That's because they know that the average American will not walk more than 600 feet without getting in their car and driving to the other side. Therefore, hey do everything they can to change your perception of how far you're walking by creating unnecessary bends in hallways. I forgot exactly where I read that. Maybe it was from something I read in a planning class. I'm not sure, but it says a lot.
I want to believe that you're right about things changing, but I personally believe that people will have to be dragged kicking and screaming before they are more participatory in their environment. As long as it's remotely cost effective be a passenger being throttled along by something other than human power, people will gladly sacrifice elsewhere to enjoy that luxury.
...We own a small retail shop in a smallish town (>10,000) we are in the process of a downtown "revitalization"...
Is "downtown revitalization" a code phrase for "we're losing all our business to the big box stores"?
How can small box retail compete with big box retail, anyway? Your consultant seems to be thinking you should turn your downtown into something like a shopping mall. Is that the best strategy?
The old urban cores were built under the assumption that people could live, work and shop all in the same area. That's still a great idea. What does your local downtown revitalization project do to accomplish that? Or have they thought about it at all?
Mall designers know a lot about the psychology of walking. Have you ever noticed how your sight lines are constantly being broken in a mall? That's because they know that the average American will not walk more than 600 feet without getting in their car and driving to the other side. Therefore, hey do everything they can to change your perception of how far you're walking by creating unnecessary bends in hallways. I forgot exactly where I read that. Maybe it was from something I read in a planning class. I'm not sure, but it says a lot.
I want to believe that you're right about things changing, but I personally believe that people will have to be dragged kicking and screaming before they are more participatory in their environment. As long as it's remotely cost effective be a passenger being throttled along by something other than human power, people will gladly sacrifice elsewhere to enjoy that luxury.
It's even worse than this. They don't even build indoor malls any more, precisely for the reason that the customers will no longer walk that far. The new "malls" are built like a faux-mainstreet with parking in front of and behind each store. People don't walk from one store to another, they drive. The fact that they call these developments "lifestyle centers" says a lot about the contemporary culture.
Sometimes I just want to puke! :D
bmclaughlin807
10-03-07, 12:27 PM
It's even worse than this. They don't even build indoor malls any more, precisely for the reason that the customers will no longer walk that far. The new "malls" are built like a faux-mainstreet with parking in front of and behind each store. People don't walk from one store to another, they drive. The fact that they call these developments "lifestyle centers" says a lot about the contemporary culture.
Sometimes I just want to puke! :D
They have a center like that here... but I've seen most people walking (Well... the ones that visit the smaller stores)
The larger stores have huge parking lots (The larger restaurants are built on the edges of these parking lots as well) , but the smaller stores at most have two on-street parking spots (metered)... most less than that.
I'm sure there ARE people that only visit the larger stores, because of the parking, but the others seem fairly well traveled, none the less.
My problem with it:
The whole place is designed as a place to spend your money. The housing is atrociously expensive, all the shops are high-end places, and the restaurants are fairly expensive (And the food isn't that great)
I went by there one morning to visit Dick's sporting Goods before a ride (I had a gift card) and I walked around the place, waiting for the sports store to open. I counted 7 banks and multiple ATMs within a block of the stores.
There WAS one bike shop in there... they specialized in beach cruiser looking things. I went in once... they had a couple bikes on the floor, and one or two accessories on the wall... the rest of the shop was empty. Looked like maybe I'd JUST missed their 'going out of business' sale (Well... other than the fact that there weren't even shelves that could have held merchandise.) Went by there a couple months later and the shop was empty.
It's even worse than this. They don't even build indoor malls any more, precisely for the reason that the customers will no longer walk that far. The new "malls" are built like a faux-mainstreet with parking in front of and behind each store. People don't walk from one store to another, they drive. The fact that they call these developments "lifestyle centers" says a lot about the contemporary culture.
Sometimes I just want to puke! :D
They just built one here and here is the map
http://www.tempemarketplace.com/marketplace-map/marketplace-map-new.aspx
Notice the parking. There is a Faux main street very ped friendly. top of the screen.
Funny thing they did nothing to improve the traffic conditions on the roads around this massive parking lot. Yet the real problem is widening the road would be easy due to zonning. I think at the very least you would add 5 ft bike lanes.
They just built one here and here is the map
http://www.tempemarketplace.com/marketplace-map/marketplace-map-new.aspx
Notice the parking. There is a Faux main street very ped friendly. top of the screen.
Funny thing they did nothing to improve the traffic conditions on the roads around this massive parking lot. Yet the real problem is widening the road would be easy due to zonning. I think at the very least you would add 5 ft bike lanes.
Fifty years from now, New Urbanists like me will be turning over in their graves when planning classes refer to this crap as "New Urbanism".
wahoonc
10-03-07, 07:11 PM
Is "downtown revitalization" a code phrase for "we're losing all our business to the big box stores"?
How can small box retail compete with big box retail, anyway? Your consultant seems to be thinking you should turn your downtown into something like a shopping mall. Is that the best strategy?
The old urban cores were built under the assumption that people could live, work and shop all in the same area. That's still a great idea. What does your local downtown revitalization project do to accomplish that? Or have they thought about it at all?
We compete with big box retail by providing a level of service that the big stores can't or won't provide. It is the only thing we can provide. We know we can't compete with them on price or selection. So many of the big box stores in our line of business focus on sales volume only and could care less if the customer is happy. We actually have repeat customers with our prom and pageant girls and they aren't shy about dragging others into to the store to shop. Our biggest problem is people coming into the store to try something on the ordering it over the internet. We have a couple of new policies in place to slow that down and it seems to be working.
Nope, our downtown is growing. In the past 3 years we added our bridal shop, a nice kitchen store, a deli/coffee shop, nice day spa and supposedly a brew pub/pizza joint is going in this year, those store join a couple of jewelry stores, an old fashioned hardware store, a couple of clothing stores and a locksmith. In addition the next phase includes getting the heavier traffic rerouted off of main street and making it more pedestrian friendly but not closing off completely, as well as getting some more housing in the immediate downtown area. There is already a 6 story apartment building, that is primarily older folks. On developer has been looking at a former cotton gin site for patio type homes. We are also looking at getting a community garden in the downtown area too. We do have some strip malls on the outskirts of town along with the usual crap like Walmart, Sonic and Lowes Home Improvements. Fortunately we aren't big enough to warrant anything like a Starbucks, Best Buy or Barnes and Nobles...yet. Those are all going in on the western side of the county:rolleyes: 30 miles away. The town has a lot to offer if we can keep the ball rolling. We have a fair amount of medium duty industry and manufacturing along with warehousing and distribution centers. A double mainline railroad, unfortunately no passenger rail that stops but that could change. We also have a major North/South Interstate on the east end of town. My favorite business in town is the local owned grocery chain, he owns 9 stores (2 in this town) as well as his own canning facility, where he cans local produce for sale in his stores and to other IGA's. We do have the perennial problem of people that don't think they can get a good deal unless you buy in the big city an hour up the road, but I figure that may start to change as fuel prices climb. There have been larger department stores downtown in the past...but they are long gone now.
Aaron:)
here is some pics of parking
Taken at campus
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/2775/park1mm0.jpg
Taken at the campus
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/2296/parkum2.jpg
Taken at a department store
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/7702/park2iu4.jpg
If I were retired and living in a small town, it would be very cool if all the local retail shops were on the same website, with a shared checkout system, and immediate bike delivery available on most items just by checking a box. Or maybe you could call a pedicab direct from the website, too.
I read somewhere that back in the old days, when downtown businesses were connected by pneumatic tubes, you could order from the local deli and they would send sandwiches to you via the tube.
Nope, our downtown is growing. In the past 3 years we added our bridal shop, a nice kitchen store, a deli/coffee shop, nice day spa and supposedly a brew pub/pizza joint is going in this year, those store join a couple of jewelry stores, an old fashioned hardware store, a couple of clothing stores and a locksmith. In addition the next phase includes getting the heavier traffic rerouted off of main street and making it more pedestrian friendly but not closing off completely, as well as getting some more housing in the immediate downtown area. There is already a 6 story apartment building, that is primarily older folks. On developer has been looking at a former cotton gin site for patio type homes. We are also looking at getting a community garden in the downtown area too. We do have some strip malls on the outskirts of town along with the usual crap like Walmart, Sonic and Lowes Home Improvements. Fortunately we aren't big enough to warrant anything like a Starbucks, Best Buy or Barnes and Nobles...yet. Those are all going in on the western side of the county:rolleyes: 30 miles away. The town has a lot to offer if we can keep the ball rolling. We have a fair amount of medium duty industry and manufacturing along with warehousing and distribution centers. A double mainline railroad, unfortunately no passenger rail that stops but that could change. We also have a major North/South Interstate on the east end of town. My favorite business in town is the local owned grocery chain, he owns 9 stores (2 in this town) as well as his own canning facility, where he cans local produce for sale in his stores and to other IGA's. We do have the perennial problem of people that don't think they can get a good deal unless you buy in the big city an hour up the road, but I figure that may start to change as fuel prices climb. There have been larger department stores downtown in the past...but they are long gone now.
Aaron:)
This reads like turning an older downtown into a mall with some token or ceremonial housing thrown in to appease the smart growth advocates. You mention so many more stores than any other community building public space kinds of infrastructure. One thing I remember in small southern towns years ago is a place to pick up day laborers. Usually it was an empty lot with some large oak trees. Most towns had such a spot. As late as 1984 or so there was such a place in Alexandria VA. a close in suburb of DC. It is gone now. You don't mention community centers or schools or community theater or any public space to anchor the social life of the community. Even the big city neighborhoods here have these farmers markets and parks. Today on my ride home I stopped at a park and chatted with a neighbor about the events on the block. If the whole area were controlled private space like a super market we wouldn't feel comfortable spending so much time going over the weeks events. It might not be earth shaking but the many conversations like that seem to help tie the community together. There must have been 50 people in that one park while I was there and the interaction wasn't about shopping or working and no one was going to tell us to leave if we didn't buy something.
wahoonc
10-04-07, 02:53 AM
This reads like turning an older downtown into a mall with some token or ceremonial housing thrown in to appease the smart growth advocates. You mention so many more stores than any other community building public space kinds of infrastructure. One thing I remember in small southern towns years ago is a place to pick up day laborers. Usually it was an empty lot with some large oak trees. Most towns had such a spot. As late as 1984 or so there was such a place in Alexandria VA. a close in suburb of DC. It is gone now. You don't mention community centers or schools or community theater or any public space to anchor the social life of the community. Even the big city neighborhoods here have these farmers markets and parks. Today on my ride home I stopped at a park and chatted with a neighbor about the events on the block. If the whole area were controlled private space like a super market we wouldn't feel comfortable spending so much time going over the weeks events. It might not be earth shaking but the many conversations like that seem to help tie the community together. There must have been 50 people in that one park while I was there and the interaction wasn't about shopping or working and no one was going to tell us to leave if we didn't buy something.
I barely scratched the surface as to what is downtown in a 4-5 square block area. The downtown is surrounded on all sides by housing, and some of it is quite affordable. I was concentrating on retail, but we also have a couple of banks, a bank service center, interior decorators, florist, bakeries, shoe store, community theater, printing company, the local newspaper, dry cleaners and churches. There are two schools within in 4 blocks of downtown on the other side of a residential area along with community tennis courts, parks and the start of a rails to trails MUP. The city police station, city offices and courthouse is downtown, ...but the county court has been moved 15 miles away to the county seat. I missed two other restaurants. We do have a monthly outdoor concert series in the big parking lot on the corner downtown during the warmer months, it is usually well supported. People bring lawn chairs and it has a street fair atmosphere. We also have a farmers market that operates from April-October, but it has suffered a bit from the drought this year. They have the stipulation in place that anything sold there has to have been produced within a 50 mile radius of the town center. The allow some hand made items, but you have to apply for a special permit to sell anything other than grown goods, the permit is a no cost permit.
I will have to give credit to the forward looking mayor and a strong city council. They were all voted in the last time around and broke the cycle of business as usual. FWIW the mayor owns a insurance business, located downtown. We also have a couple of computer guru types with store fronts, a travel agency, two real estate offices, a pool hall and T-shirt shop.
It isn't perfect but there is a lot more there than in a lot of small towns I pass through and I have my hopes that it will continue to survive. Based on my conversations with other small business owners is the feeling that we do face a daily uphill struggle sometimes to get people to even realize that their are businesses downtown, but every time there is a downtown event scheduled we always manage to get a new customer or two that didn't realize we were down there, so there is hope. We all pull together as a group and combine our advertising dollars to try to bring people in. My biggest concern is a downturn in the economy could be a problem for most of us if people cut back on discretionary spending, but so far our business has grown at a slow steady rate that is sustainable. If we were in one of the fancy, shmancy strip malls with triple the rent, I don't think we would still be in business. Most of our businesses downtown compliment each other. Someone comes in to get a dress and will have lunch at the deli or other restaurant, if it is a bride the florist, photographer and bakery are right there, so that aspect works for us.
Aaron:)
Here's something we can all do to promote car free thinking.
If you notice that some local neighborhood has good car free potential, simply mention that fact if it comes up in normal conversation.
Look back on how your own carfree thinking developed. In many cases I'm sure the initial spark came from someone else's casual comment about something.
adgrant
10-04-07, 09:10 AM
I was interested to see them mention NYC. Parking in Manhattan certainly isn't free. It can cost $400-$1000 a month for a resident to park their car in a garage and vistors $30-$60 a day. Much (but not all) of the street parking is metered. Even the free parking isn't really free. Its hard to avoid parking tickets if you use street parking an Manhattan parking tickets cost over $100 and you can get several over the course of a couple of hours. You also need to budget for car repairs if you ever want to sell the car after you have been parking it on the street.
zoltani
10-04-07, 10:15 AM
In James Howard Kunstler (http://www.ted.com/index.php/speakers/view/id/103)'s view, public spaces should be inspired centers of civic life -- the physical manifestation of the common good. Instead, he argues, what we have in America is a nation of places not worth caring about. Reengineering our cities will involve more radical change than we are prepared for, he believes, but our hand will be forced by earth crises stemming from our overconsuming lifestyle. "Life in the mid-21st century," Kunstler says, "is going to be about living locally." Passionate, profane and funny, this talk will make you think about the place where you live.
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/121
He has some interesting ideas about what to do with those empty walmarts and huge parking lots we have aquired in america.
bmclaughlin807
10-05-07, 06:03 PM
Look back on how your own carfree thinking developed. In many cases I'm sure the initial spark came from someone else's casual comment about something.
My car free history (http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=350631) thread
I thought it might make for some interesting posts!
Bushman
10-08-07, 01:17 AM
double post
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