Folding Bikes - Help me out with a Raleigh 20 ultimate upgrade recipe

So in a race - would the wasp or the battleship win?

So in a race - would the wasp or the battleship win?

Well that's like asking how long is a piece of string?.............

It would depend on air speed velocity, (not of an unladened swallow), the earth's gravitational pull, the seasonal and climatic conditions in either hemisphere...and of course, wind direction.
In other words....you leave London at midnight tonight, I'll leave Melbourne at the same time tomorrow morning, half way can be Banff in Canada, the first there has the fastest bike. ;)

Really, it's who has the better engine......we may find out if I get across the the UK in the near future.

Can I ask why you'll build the rear which carries about 65% of the weight AND transmission forces with 24 spokes, when you'll be building the front which has a much lighter job with 50% more spokes?

There may be a reason that I haven't thought of. On Bromptons for example, they use heavier gauge spokes on the rear wheel I believe. I snapped two of mine on the Merc while accelerating hard.


It's because I'm an idiot. I ordered some rims, without paying attention properly. They're 48 hole rims. I'm going to build a 24 spoke wheel because the rims are so cool, and the worst that can happen is it's unreliable, and I have to build again, so it costs me some spokes. There is no good reason.

It's because I'm an idiot. I ordered some rims, without paying attention properly. They're 48 hole rims. I'm going to build a 24 spoke wheel because the rims are so cool, and the worst that can happen is it's unreliable, and I have to build again, so it costs me some spokes. There is no good reason.All of these sound like excellent reasons to me :)

My rims arrived! They're not quite the matt hot-rod red I'd have hoped for, but damn they're cool. They'll look great with a black powder coated or stove enamelled frame. Check it out!

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Samuelw72/PA140022.jpg

Thay r teh nice! :)

I think with these you *really really* ought to be looking out for a way to get some whitewall action on your tyres! I do believe you can get hookworms with a white sidewall - or try a cruiser lorider type bmx shop. And Apehanger bars. And some flames. And a cigarette packet rolled into your t-shirt sleeve :)

http://thumbnail.image.rakuten.co.jp/@0_mall/atomic-cycle/cabinet/00215335/img17782123.jpg

[thinks about re-watching 'american graffiti']

Hmmm...........I might get the Wasp's rims anodised in red as well

in yellow ?

Nah, in red.....remember L.P., Raleigh colours are red, yellow and black, might have to change it's name though.

Actually, 20's came with 451's to begin with. Sounds like a cool project, I've not seen many derailleur geared 20 upgrades.

Here's one that was converted in the 80's. I've removed the front derailleur and shifters as they were really ugly. Probably going to add a twist shifter for the rear and remove one of the front chain rings.
It also has a cotterless axle with cups that fit the raleigh thread. Pretty usefull.

Nice work Norfolk. I actually have some whitewall 406 tyres that I bought for a chopper I built for my son, but they aren't rated high enough for what I want. Hookworms go to 110 psi though, so if I could find whitewall Hookworms, I might be all over that....

Here's one that was converted in the 80's. I've removed the front derailleur and shifters as they were really ugly. Probably going to add a twist shifter for the rear and remove one of the front chain rings.
It also has a cotterless axle with cups that fit the raleigh thread. Pretty usefull.

Looks different to all the other R20's I've seen. There are no tubes coming up from the BB to the maim tube. The rear dropouts look different also. Was this a latter R20 variant?

It's a NZ Twenty built under licence - for some reason the strengthening struts weren't deemed necessary for the southern hemisphere...

It's a NZ Twenty built under licence - for some reason the strengthening struts weren't deemed necessary for the southern hemisphere...

Probably due to the Coriolis Effect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_effect

:)

The lack of that strut between the botton bracket and the main tube must put terrible strain on that maintube joint with the seat tube. You'd think it would snap if you went over a bump. What would it have cost to put that short strut in there?

It's a NZ Twenty built under licence - for some reason the strengthening struts weren't deemed necessary for the southern hemisphere...

Yeah, because we're better and more careful riders :p

I read somewhere that the cross tube is thicker on the NZ variant, maybe that's how they figured they could build them with missing tubes. I've never seen a broken or cracked r20 though, and we used to put cow horns on em and jump them a few years before bmx/mountain bikes became the norm...('78-79) Could someone in the UK or US give me the outside diameter of the cross tube?

Yeah, because we're better and more careful riders :p

And generally lighter...(joke)

Ok, so I have my Nexus 7 (for cheap - yay!), and I have my rims, and I have a 48 spoke front hub, and I have a wheelstand, and even a copy of The Bicycle Wheel. All I've got to do is get the spokes ordered, and I can build my first wheel. It's getting exciting!

I also need to figure out my BB spindle size......

Ok, so I have my Nexus 7 (for cheap - yay!), and I have my rims, and I have a 48 spoke front hub, and I have a wheelstand, and even a copy of The Bicycle Wheel. All I've got to do is get the spokes ordered, and I can build my first wheel. It's getting exciting!

I also need to figure out my BB spindle size......


How do you find all these parts for all your bikes?....and on the cheap?
Over here, the stingey mongrels want top dollar :mad:

By doing very very very thorough research when I should be working. I watched a lot of Nexus 8 hubs, then a 7 came on, and I realised that because of the presence of 8's, nobody was interested in the 7's anymore! I'm now keeping a close eye, because frankly, if I can be picking up 7's for £30 (which is what I paid), I'm going to be a happy boy. New rear wheel for my tandem ahoy! You've got to be a real ebay hound - the secret is that you watch at least 50 things for every one that you even bother bidding on. My rims were cheap because I didn't just say "hey, here are some reasonable priced 406 rims - bingo!", but instead I searched every shop I could find, and hit on someone clearing out Velocity Aeroheats. Even my Sovus front hub was marked down 50%

Well that's like asking how long is a piece of string?.............

It would depend on air speed velocity, (not of an unladened swallow), the earth's gravitational pull, the seasonal and climatic conditions in either hemisphere...and of course, wind direction.
In other words....you leave London at midnight tonight, I'll leave Melbourne at the same time tomorrow morning, half way can be Banff in Canada, the first there has the fastest bike. ;)

Really, it's who has the better engine......we may find out if I get across the the UK in the near future.

I think you missed altitude out of the list of variables. Maybe you did of you didn't - I've just come back from the pub on my Merc. It's a good job she knows the way home. Good ol' horse.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/csl2535l.jpg

I think you missed altitude out of the list of variables. Maybe you did of you didn't - I've just come back from the pub on my Merc. It's a good job she knows the way home. Good ol' horse.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/csl2535l.jpg


Attitude....ATTITUDE???...I'll teach you a thing or two about attit.......Oh, sorry old man...... ALTITUDE

Now for something completey different and in my best Michael Palin voice....."I always try to have a positive altitude about most things..really I do..it's just...you know.... :o:o...my problem."

So far no one has talked about forks. Don't you need a new fork to upgrade headset? If so, can I get some recommendations? I found a nice twenty on craigslist and want to upgrade it for my Xmas present to myself. I'm not a bike mechanic but working on it. I think I'd like a dyno hub if it matters.

Well, I'm not upgrading the headset, so this is not germane to my bike, hence not addressing it. That said, the whole BF R20 knowledge base is reading this thread........

Regarding new forks, I noticed that Rob English?? from Bikefriday has made a new prototype model with carbon fibre forks.....I wonder if someone has thought about it for their R20?
Finding a fork with a very long threaded steerer would not be easy, or even finding one long enough that you could thread yourself would be difficult as well. Then there's the problem of one that can be used with a non intergrated headset and then cutting the forks to the correct length for 406 or 451 rims, and finally re-attaching the dropouts......but if it was possible...NICE

You can get carbon 'bladed' bmx forks but I folded my hand because of the steerer thing.

https://www.jrbicycles.com/storefront/images/uploads/Forks/fork00019%20Redline%20Carbon%20Microline%20(1).jpg

I have considered all sorts of angles to get a lightweight carbon fork for my Swift. One of the angles was to shorten a road fork (al la Rob English). The problem is the forks become narrower towards the crown so the dropout spacing goes out the window.

Lengthening the steerer is a minor problem.

I have considered all sorts of angles to get a lightweight carbon fork for my Swift. One of the angles was to shorten a road fork (al la Rob English). The problem is the forks become narrower towards the crown so the dropout spacing goes out the window.

Lengthening the steerer is a minor problem.

Jur,

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your method of doing this, and if you have any thoughts on the dropouts, that could be handy as well, pics or sketches would be great. :)

Stevegor
I've skimmed this thread and can't find any mention so must ask...what sort of brakes are you going to use?

Jur,

Perhaps you could enlighten us with your method of doing this, and if you have any thoughts on the dropouts, that could be handy as well, pics or sketches would be great. :)The steerer can be lengthened by inserting a tight tube inside. There is actually an engineering firm doing exactly that not far from my work here. Re the dropouts, I don't have a solution there. They become too narrow so I shelved the idea. No further innvestigation on how to shorten the dropouts. I was merely thinking along the lines of sawing off, looking at the original bonding and coming up with similar with perhaps an adapter to make a proper fit. I'd still do it if I can solve the spacing problem.

Stevegor
I've skimmed this thread and can't find any mention so must ask...what sort of brakes are you going to use?

If I could figure out how to mod a carbon fork, I would use a 105 or Ultegra road calliper or if I was using fenders, a set of long reach Ultegra callipers. I would cut the fork length to suit the 451 rims.
I've sourced a nice set of 26" steel forks with a long threaded steerer that might be easier to mod, so I might go that way, I think it has bosses for V-brakes so I could use it for my wife's 406 wheeled R20.

Sorry i was confused there Stevegor, I meant Sammyboy, crikey this is a long thread.

Hi All 20 fans,

I haven't been frequenting the internet for a while, as life has been getting in the way. I saw this thread and just wanted to give my .02 cents on the fork thing. I did think about buying a BMX carbon fiber fork and adding a longer steerer. I didn't end up doing it, but I think it would be pretty easy to get one and lengthen the steerer. You could always buy one of those stem extenders that are made expressly for the purpose and have it welded in? It might end up being just as heavy as a non CF fork, but you would get the look. I decided against for 2 reasons.

1. My lbs guy who did the work on my chainstays wouldn't do the welding. He said it would be too difficult to get the steerer extension perfectly straight. I'm not 100% sure this would be true, but hey, he knows more than me.
2. The cost of even a used CF BMX fork is high enough that I wouldn't want to take one solely for experimentation purposes and end up throwing it away.

I have considered having my LBS guy make me a custom steel fork with an extra long stem. Oh well, good luck on your Twenty upgrade Sammyboy, and I will try to keep an eye on this thread for future developments.

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/6065/r20amh5.th.jpg (http://img356.imageshack.us/my.php?image=r20amh5.jpg)http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/2253/r20bwy5.th.jpg (http://img524.imageshack.us/my.php?image=r20bwy5.jpg)http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9840/r20drivetrainqw6.th.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=r20drivetrainqw6.jpg)http://img374.imageshack.us/img374/5121/r20frontxb3.th.jpg (http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=r20frontxb3.jpg)
click for full size

Juan

Stevegor
I've skimmed this thread and can't find any mention so must ask...what sort of brakes are you going to use?

I had a set of Alhonga deep drop dual pivot brakes lined up from SJS, cheap, plenty of reach, and combined with Kool Stop Salmons and alloy rims, they should provide a massive improvement, but I've just been back to get the picture and.....they've disappeared off the site. Damn. For those watching progress here, I'm on the verge of ordering my spokes and getting these wheels built, but I've been making damn sure I'm buying the right ones, And since checking the lacing, and whether I'm using the best cross pattern on the front, and learning about whether one should round up or down when you can't get the exact length, I've changed my shopping list 3 times. I won't order til I'm damn sure, but then you can expect the wheelbuild to happen fast. I guess the next stage will be to get the existing bike torn down and start paint stripping while I assemble money for brakes, shifter and hub fitting kit, Brooks, and seatpost.....

Wait! Found 'em. I think I'd better order these ASAP before they drop off the planet altogether. Up to 69mm drop.


http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/73alhonga_l.jpg

Sammyboy,
Check that the reach is long enough for 406mm rims with those brakes, 451mm would work, not sure if 406will. When I did the 1st rebuild on the Wasp, I used the original brakes with the 451 rims, but playing around with my wife's 406 rims on her R20 they weren't long enough...I hope I'm wrong.
I get the frames sandblasted then powder-coated for about $50AU.....less work.

PS: Can you hurry up and get this thing finished......we're all bustin' to see it, mate. ;)

If I remember rightly, I measured, and these had considerably more reach than the originals. Trouble is, Wiggle is out of stock.....

Mate, brake pads are going to wreak havoc with your red rims...a very important consideration for any r20 mod is the aesthetic...as you are probably aware most r20 mod owners spend a lot of time looking at their bikes, and planning future modifications. (expect stevgor to chip in here re: times/distances and recent continents ;-) ) It's no good for the soul to carry around 'rim resentment', which for you may be hard to avoid if there is a sudden change from a 'mint' rim to a scratchy 2-tone.

So you would propose him forgoing brakes and doing a Ted Shred (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH5W1Z23wPg)...? :D

Mate, brake pads are going to wreak havoc with your red rims...a very important consideration for any r20 mod is the aesthetic...as you are probably aware most r20 mod owners spend a lot of time looking at their bikes, and planning future modifications. (expect stevgor to chip in here re: times/distances and recent continents ;-) ) It's no good for the soul to carry around 'rim resentment', which for you may be hard to avoid if there is a sudden change from a 'mint' rim to a scratchy 2-tone.

I think I can live with the scratches more easily that with a broken head.

So you would propose him forgoing brakes and doing a Ted Shred (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH5W1Z23wPg)...? :D


Jur,
Between you and I and the rest of the R20 and folder forum guys/gals with all of our collective years of cycling, I think I can safely say that Ted Shred is nothing more than a FOOL, he's not cool, he's an idiot and his stupid game of cheating death or serious injury will come back and bite hard. Unfortunately meatheads like him won't listen to reason.....what a jerk. :mad:


Norfolk Bolt,
Ummm....me??...with never ending thoughts of future mods???
......Hmm, "Should I bid on that 32h Rohloff hub on Aussie eBay for my spare 406 32h rim.....methinks to meself"?

Re Ted Shred:
ZOMG! He's so cool!1!!shift!!!!-
I wish *I* could be like that.
Not.

Ted Shred is one of those guys that would remove his head in an attempt to look cool. To be 'more extreme' than the next man. Fixie riding is one thing but this is just sad really. Trying. Too. Hard.

So - great idea man - run freewheel with no brakes and literally burn through tyres and keds like they're going out of fashion. And fall off all the time. And burn your feet too I wouldn't wonder on those SF hills. And with no consideration for whoever you eventually rope into sharing your final big accident with.
What a silly sausage...

Re: rims - something I've considered doing in the past with anodised rims is pre-sanding the brake surface (with a Black & Decker mouse or similar) so it's looking nice and even before even fitting it. Perhaps doing this once built on the truing stand one can get something that approximates the finish one gets with machined sidewalls? I cleaned up a rim after it had broken in with a sheet of 3Ms best and definitely improved things. But maybe for the Rat Rod look it should get smeary.

In his defence, Ted Shred does get those shoes for nothing. So it's not costing him as much as you'd think....


I believe I will move to using a small multi-use parachute for deceleration purposes.

Poll: which does he prefer?

a. "the late Ted Shred"
b. "dead Ted Shred."

I know, it's a little early to ask, but better get these things straight before it's too late.

Guys,

I'm sorry if I seem too critical about that loser, and I don't want to bore you with my own sad tales of cycling woes, but......having survived some bad accidents, (which most were not my fault), some funny, some not so funny and one that I am very fortunate to be alive from, it needles me to see T.S. do that stuff, that's all. Enough said....back to the thread.

No definately not a Ted Shred.
I was sort of half joking about the colour, but also half not.
I'd go for disc brakes or none on the front mate. I take it the Nexus rear hub is a coaster brake? Well those things can stop you dead (no pun intended), rain or shine...a front cantilevered brake doesn't add a lot to your braking potential.
I have coloured rims, and it only took a couple of rides to rub/scratch the colour off. If I was having my wheels built all over, I would definately spend the money on a front disc. Even with that extention you guys have been talking about, normal cantilevered brakes don't stop too good, so it's still bosses or new forks. Why not spend the money on a disc brake?
I have red velocity 451 aeros and a 7 speed nexus. My bikes getting painted and i'll post a photo when it's done. But when you see it you won't let brake pads near your rims, I promise.
Thats a good idea littlepixel about polishing the anodising off, as you say it'd be a straight line that gave it it's effect.

One thing about the headstem....I still use the nylon bush set up on the Wasp with a long neck attached to an inverted seat post, it's heavy, so I'm thinking of making a "swan neck" stem, similar to a Bikefriday Pocket Rocket. I have the tubing and a pipebender set and I'll mig a clamp from an old stem on the end. then powder coat it, black of course. It should be lighter and more elegant.

Ha! Now I know at least one chap with a pipe bender! :D

The swan stem is a great idea - I want one for my Mini. Can you bend ally?

The swan stem is a great idea - I want one for my Mini. Can you bend ally?

Will have to experiment....let me know what type and I will get some and try it.

Bender as in robot.