octopuswithafez
10-03-07, 01:07 PM
http://kunstler.com/eyesore_200404.JPG
View Full Version : Who likes bike lanes?
Marrock
10-03-07, 01:15 PM
That looks more like a bike ditch...
frymaster
10-03-07, 01:22 PM
admit it. you went out and painted that at three in the morning.
didn't you? pleas say you did...
didn't you? pleas say you did...
filtersweep
10-03-07, 01:28 PM
I hate them and generally avoid them. They are dangerous.
maddyfish
10-03-07, 01:34 PM
What's the point of this? All the bike lanes I have seen have places like that in them. Is that unusual?
Brian Ratliff
10-03-07, 02:33 PM
^^^
Terribly unusual here to see bike lanes like this.
Terribly unusual here to see bike lanes like this.
noisebeam
10-03-07, 02:42 PM
This is not an example of the problem with 'bike lanes' themselves, but with the systems and guidelines in place to design, implement and maintain them.
This is a problem with the idea to get cyclists out of the vehicular lanes and away from other traffic and the desire to appeal to cyclists and cycling advocacy organizations by striping bike lanes just to add to the statistic of miles of bike lanes, with zero consideration as to practicality or safety. The fault lies not just with those who paint them, but with those who only advocate for the stripe and are not closely involved with the entire process.
Here is an old thread with many other examples of poorly implmented or maintained bike lanes.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=179714
Al
This is a problem with the idea to get cyclists out of the vehicular lanes and away from other traffic and the desire to appeal to cyclists and cycling advocacy organizations by striping bike lanes just to add to the statistic of miles of bike lanes, with zero consideration as to practicality or safety. The fault lies not just with those who paint them, but with those who only advocate for the stripe and are not closely involved with the entire process.
Here is an old thread with many other examples of poorly implmented or maintained bike lanes.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=179714
Al
Brian Ratliff
10-03-07, 02:43 PM
You know, if the OP picture is what people know of bike lanes, I can see where all this hostility comes from. The execution is very badly flawed.
noisebeam
10-03-07, 02:58 PM
You know, if the OP picture is what people know of bike lanes, I can see where all this hostility comes from. The execution is very badly flawed.
Which is why I think that taken as a whole poorly designed/maintained bike lanes is only one negative about the process of bike lanes vs. many thousands of negatives for each bad bike lane.
It is why when developing pro/con about bike lanes one should use the best bike lane guideline there is to evaluate the as implemented pro/cons and separately list as a con that unless local government bike lane implementation/maintence systems are robust, that bad bike lanes, worse than standard, are likely to be implemented. Not all regions in the US have this later problem, but far too many do.
Al
Which is why I think that taken as a whole poorly designed/maintained bike lanes is only one negative about the process of bike lanes vs. many thousands of negatives for each bad bike lane.
It is why when developing pro/con about bike lanes one should use the best bike lane guideline there is to evaluate the as implemented pro/cons and separately list as a con that unless local government bike lane implementation/maintence systems are robust, that bad bike lanes, worse than standard, are likely to be implemented. Not all regions in the US have this later problem, but far too many do.
Al
bmclaughlin807
10-03-07, 03:03 PM
There are exactly two places around here that I have seen that have similar problems... I'm sure there are, in fact, others... just not where I've ridden. By and large, however, the bike lanes around here are fairly well executed, and generally fairly rideable.
Brian Ratliff
10-03-07, 03:24 PM
Which is why I think that taken as a whole poorly designed/maintained bike lanes is only one negative about the process of bike lanes vs. many thousands of negatives for each bad bike lane.
It is why when developing pro/con about bike lanes one should use the best bike lane guideline there is to evaluate their as implemented pro/cons and separately list as a con that unless local government bike lane implementation/maintence systems are robust, that bad bike lanes, worse than standard, are likely to be implemented. Not all regions in the US have this later problem, but far too many do.
Al
Um... (usually you are more understandable than this...commas are your friend... sorry :))
So what you are saying is: if you are going to put bike lanes in, the city had better have a good plan for implementation and maintainance of these bike lanes. I agree. You seem to list this as a "con" though, and I am not following you there.
It is why when developing pro/con about bike lanes one should use the best bike lane guideline there is to evaluate their as implemented pro/cons and separately list as a con that unless local government bike lane implementation/maintence systems are robust, that bad bike lanes, worse than standard, are likely to be implemented. Not all regions in the US have this later problem, but far too many do.
Al
Um... (usually you are more understandable than this...commas are your friend... sorry :))
So what you are saying is: if you are going to put bike lanes in, the city had better have a good plan for implementation and maintainance of these bike lanes. I agree. You seem to list this as a "con" though, and I am not following you there.
octopuswithafez
10-03-07, 03:29 PM
Well, the bike lane in question in my original post was from Kunstler's eyesore of the month site (kunstler.com) and is supposed to be somewhere in Santa Monica ( his attribution not mine )
-=£em in Pa=-
10-03-07, 03:31 PM
Im not getting what the big deal is here ?
There are roads in about the same or worse shape than the picture.
Maybe we should have a 'who likes roads' thread ?
There are roads in about the same or worse shape than the picture.
Maybe we should have a 'who likes roads' thread ?
noisebeam
10-03-07, 03:34 PM
Um... (usually you are more understandable than this...commas are your friend... sorry :))
So what you are saying is: if you are going to put bike lanes in, the city had better have a good plan for implementation and maintainance of these bike lanes. I agree. You seem to list this as a "con" though, and I am not following you there.
No, what I am trying to say is that highlighting all the individual poor (meaning sub-existing standard/guidelines) bike lanes that exist doesn't really add substance to the 'debate' over bike lanes. It is just evidence about something in the 'process' of bike lanes that is broken in many regions.
Al
So what you are saying is: if you are going to put bike lanes in, the city had better have a good plan for implementation and maintainance of these bike lanes. I agree. You seem to list this as a "con" though, and I am not following you there.
No, what I am trying to say is that highlighting all the individual poor (meaning sub-existing standard/guidelines) bike lanes that exist doesn't really add substance to the 'debate' over bike lanes. It is just evidence about something in the 'process' of bike lanes that is broken in many regions.
Al
randya
10-03-07, 03:44 PM
^^^
Terribly unusual here to see bike lanes like this.
Not true, PDOT and BES have installed lots of double-wide drainage grates in bike lanes, which reduce the usable space from 4' +/- to less than 12".
The photo in question only differs in the amount of passable space, which looks like 6" or so, and the strip of large loose gravel between the gutter pan and the asphalt, whassup with that?
edit - the gutter pan and large gravel actually look like new construction, maybe supposed to be some sort of infiltration feature for stormwater? If so quite terribly executed.
Terribly unusual here to see bike lanes like this.
Not true, PDOT and BES have installed lots of double-wide drainage grates in bike lanes, which reduce the usable space from 4' +/- to less than 12".
The photo in question only differs in the amount of passable space, which looks like 6" or so, and the strip of large loose gravel between the gutter pan and the asphalt, whassup with that?
edit - the gutter pan and large gravel actually look like new construction, maybe supposed to be some sort of infiltration feature for stormwater? If so quite terribly executed.
Brian Ratliff
10-03-07, 03:44 PM
@noisebeam
I think I am seeing your point clearer, and it is more expansive than my last response. You are saying that, if you made a sheet that said "bike lanes" at the top with a list of "pros" and "cons" below it, that one of the "cons" of a bike lane design is that it would have to be implemented correctly.
I see this as self evident.
But the problem of how you've formulated the problem is that you've mixed a design problem with politics. Politicians honestly don't care whether the bike lanes look like the one in the OP or whether they look like the ones from Bek's pictures (which are how the new roads around here look like too). They care about the effect on the consituent they are trying to please; which in this case, are bicyclists and the people who, while they don't bike themselves, support the idea.
Here, though, the danger of opposing bike lanes on ideological grounds raises its head. Because of the infighting between cyclists about exactly what the solution should be, plus the pressures from other groups and the needs of other road users, the DOT agency gets confused. The very fear that you have, noisebeam, comes true because people are so busy opposing bike lanes on purely ideological grounds that the agency, having already made up its mind that bike lanes are the solution due to the politics, does what is cost convenient as a default. The very fear you have of "bad design" comes true precisely because the "anti-bike laner's" (for lack of a better term), fighting a losing position, manage to confuse the agency enough about the precise wants of the cycling community, that we get the worse of all worlds. The politicians get their political solution, but the engineering is bad because of lack of guidance from their constituents. This is the danger of opposing engineering designs on ideological grounds.
I think I am seeing your point clearer, and it is more expansive than my last response. You are saying that, if you made a sheet that said "bike lanes" at the top with a list of "pros" and "cons" below it, that one of the "cons" of a bike lane design is that it would have to be implemented correctly.
I see this as self evident.
But the problem of how you've formulated the problem is that you've mixed a design problem with politics. Politicians honestly don't care whether the bike lanes look like the one in the OP or whether they look like the ones from Bek's pictures (which are how the new roads around here look like too). They care about the effect on the consituent they are trying to please; which in this case, are bicyclists and the people who, while they don't bike themselves, support the idea.
Here, though, the danger of opposing bike lanes on ideological grounds raises its head. Because of the infighting between cyclists about exactly what the solution should be, plus the pressures from other groups and the needs of other road users, the DOT agency gets confused. The very fear that you have, noisebeam, comes true because people are so busy opposing bike lanes on purely ideological grounds that the agency, having already made up its mind that bike lanes are the solution due to the politics, does what is cost convenient as a default. The very fear you have of "bad design" comes true precisely because the "anti-bike laner's" (for lack of a better term), fighting a losing position, manage to confuse the agency enough about the precise wants of the cycling community, that we get the worse of all worlds. The politicians get their political solution, but the engineering is bad because of lack of guidance from their constituents. This is the danger of opposing engineering designs on ideological grounds.
Brian Ratliff
10-03-07, 03:48 PM
Not true, PDOT and BES have installed lots of double-wide drainage grates in bike lanes, which reduce the usable space from 4' +/- to less than 12".
The photo in question only differs in the amount of passable space, which looks like 6" or so, and the strip of large loose gravel between the gutter pan and the asphalt, whassup with that?
I'm local, so we can differentiate between towns here. My locale is the Hillsboro/Beaverton/Tigard/Tualatin/Willsonville area. It's all newer development than Portland, and thus the construction is newer, with many very nice, new bike lanes. It is getting pretty rare to see disasters such as the OP pic in the westside suburbs.
The photo in question only differs in the amount of passable space, which looks like 6" or so, and the strip of large loose gravel between the gutter pan and the asphalt, whassup with that?
I'm local, so we can differentiate between towns here. My locale is the Hillsboro/Beaverton/Tigard/Tualatin/Willsonville area. It's all newer development than Portland, and thus the construction is newer, with many very nice, new bike lanes. It is getting pretty rare to see disasters such as the OP pic in the westside suburbs.
Helmet Head
10-03-07, 05:02 PM
Okay, so the bike lane in the OP is narrow and has longitudinal hazards, but no one has mentioned perhaps the biggest problem. What do you think it is?
Highlight the contents of the following box to see my answer.
Solid stripe all the way to the intersection
Highlight the contents of the following box to see my answer.
Solid stripe all the way to the intersection
bmclaughlin807
10-03-07, 05:29 PM
Okay, so the bike lane in the OP is narrow and has longitudinal hazards, but no one has mentioned perhaps the biggest problem. What do you think it is?
Highlight the contents of the following box to see my answer.
If the entire section is unusable, what difference does it make that the solid line extends to the intersection??? I'm not going to be in the lane in anything short of a mountain bike with 2" knobbies, anyway.
So... yes, IN THIS CASE you'd probably be better off with no bike lane. ( I notice that the lane hasn't been repainted in a while... maybe they realized what a bad idea it was, but were unwilling to pay the extra money to physically remove the stripe and markings.
I'd be riding in the lane, or using an alternate route (That would be especially appealing if the rest of the road looks as bad as that bike lane...)
Highlight the contents of the following box to see my answer.
If the entire section is unusable, what difference does it make that the solid line extends to the intersection??? I'm not going to be in the lane in anything short of a mountain bike with 2" knobbies, anyway.
So... yes, IN THIS CASE you'd probably be better off with no bike lane. ( I notice that the lane hasn't been repainted in a while... maybe they realized what a bad idea it was, but were unwilling to pay the extra money to physically remove the stripe and markings.
I'd be riding in the lane, or using an alternate route (That would be especially appealing if the rest of the road looks as bad as that bike lane...)
noisebeam
10-03-07, 05:47 PM
Brian-
I see where you are going - however I am really being more practical than ideology driven if you can believe it.
What I am trying to say is who cares if there are super-substandard BLs? The most well known guideline (AASHTO) for BLs is already sub-standard is my opinion. It allows for 4' wide lanes and door zone lanes and a BL stripes (dashed or not) for intersection approaches whether or not they have a RTOL or not. All my cons against BLs can be made against lanes that meet those guidelines.
To me when folks pointi out BLs that are blatently super-sub-standard, this really doesn't make an anti-BL argument, if anything it weakens the arguement making it look like the only concerns 'anti-BL' folks have is that sometime bad ones get built - that is certainly a real, but fixable issue and not one that should gate to BL advocacy.
Sure there are some places where a BL stripe can be helpful, but I'd rather see the policy be: if in doubt just add pavement width and don't put the stripe in except for a very strict and optimal set of conditions*, no exceptions. That to me is a much harder guideline to screw up.
*for example: funded maintenance plan, 8' wide, only on higher speed roads with no intersections, never approaching intersections. but we don't need to debate those criteria again
Al
I see where you are going - however I am really being more practical than ideology driven if you can believe it.
What I am trying to say is who cares if there are super-substandard BLs? The most well known guideline (AASHTO) for BLs is already sub-standard is my opinion. It allows for 4' wide lanes and door zone lanes and a BL stripes (dashed or not) for intersection approaches whether or not they have a RTOL or not. All my cons against BLs can be made against lanes that meet those guidelines.
To me when folks pointi out BLs that are blatently super-sub-standard, this really doesn't make an anti-BL argument, if anything it weakens the arguement making it look like the only concerns 'anti-BL' folks have is that sometime bad ones get built - that is certainly a real, but fixable issue and not one that should gate to BL advocacy.
Sure there are some places where a BL stripe can be helpful, but I'd rather see the policy be: if in doubt just add pavement width and don't put the stripe in except for a very strict and optimal set of conditions*, no exceptions. That to me is a much harder guideline to screw up.
*for example: funded maintenance plan, 8' wide, only on higher speed roads with no intersections, never approaching intersections. but we don't need to debate those criteria again
Al
Helmet Head
10-03-07, 07:07 PM
If the entire section is unusable, what difference does it make that the solid line extends to the intersection??? I'm not going to be in the lane in anything short of a mountain bike with 2" knobbies, anyway.
The existence of the bike lane, however shabby, with the bike lane symbol, coupled with the solid stripe, supports the faulty notion that through cyclists should keep right at intersections. This is implied by the solid stripe even though that particular bike lane is unusable.
The existence of the bike lane, however shabby, with the bike lane symbol, coupled with the solid stripe, supports the faulty notion that through cyclists should keep right at intersections. This is implied by the solid stripe even though that particular bike lane is unusable.
buzzman
10-03-07, 07:18 PM
Im not getting what the big deal is here ?
There are roads in about the same or worse shape than the picture.
Maybe we should have a 'who likes roads' thread ?
my sentiments exactly.:rolleyes:
There are roads in about the same or worse shape than the picture.
Maybe we should have a 'who likes roads' thread ?
my sentiments exactly.:rolleyes:
donnamb
10-03-07, 08:30 PM
^^^
Terribly unusual here to see bike lanes like this.
+1, and Brian and I tend to ride on opposite sides of our metro area.
Not true, PDOT and BES have installed lots of double-wide drainage grates in bike lanes, which reduce the usable space from 4' +/- to less than 12".
I guess I'm not riding where lanes like that are. If you say there are lanes like that, randya, I believe it.
Terribly unusual here to see bike lanes like this.
+1, and Brian and I tend to ride on opposite sides of our metro area.
Not true, PDOT and BES have installed lots of double-wide drainage grates in bike lanes, which reduce the usable space from 4' +/- to less than 12".
I guess I'm not riding where lanes like that are. If you say there are lanes like that, randya, I believe it.
Marrock
10-03-07, 10:48 PM
I don't have a problem with riding roads like that, washouts, ruts, or down that salt pile out where the county keeps their trucks, but some people, like my girlfriend, who has to ride a trike because her sense of balance isn't up to factory specs anymore, couldn't even get their ride to fit into a lane that narrow without bashing up against the curb, hooking the storm drain, or losing it in the torn up blacktop.
Not everyone can just hop out of the way when the road gets bad or the drivers get ugly.
Not everyone can just hop out of the way when the road gets bad or the drivers get ugly.
bmclaughlin807
10-03-07, 10:51 PM
This kind of post is really shocking to me.
The fact that folks are unable to negotiate that minor bit of bad pavement, gravel, and grate over a ten to fifteen foot bit of roadway, while staying in the bike line (like when you're filtering for example) is astounding.
If that looks like some big, scary challenge, how the hell do you ride your bike in a straight line?
Shocking? There's only a few inches between the gravel and the white line (Note that I'm not even worrying about the grate... If the grate was the only issue, I'd go around it and return to the lane).... If the rest of the bike lane is similar (No way of knowing, but nothing to show that it might not be) then there's no way I'm going to be in it. I'd probably be on the line or slightly left of it.
I've LEARNED that lesson the hard way... it's a lesson I would NOT care to repeat any time soon, thank you very much.
If, on the other hand, the rest of the lane was passable, then, by all means, I'd go around the bad part and use the rest of the lane.
I do, however, take exception to you implying that I can't handle my bike because of this one comment... I have many thousands of miles of experience, ranging from mountain bike trails to Urban cycling with plenty of traffic, on roads both with and without bike lanes, to mountain descents approaching 60 mph... I must be doing SOMETHING right.
Edit: And I never said that road scared me... just that I'd be in the lane (As the bike lane at that spot is pretty obviously unusable... unless you're riding really wide tires), or... if the entire road is in disrepair, I'd find a smoother route, if available and close.
The fact that folks are unable to negotiate that minor bit of bad pavement, gravel, and grate over a ten to fifteen foot bit of roadway, while staying in the bike line (like when you're filtering for example) is astounding.
If that looks like some big, scary challenge, how the hell do you ride your bike in a straight line?
Shocking? There's only a few inches between the gravel and the white line (Note that I'm not even worrying about the grate... If the grate was the only issue, I'd go around it and return to the lane).... If the rest of the bike lane is similar (No way of knowing, but nothing to show that it might not be) then there's no way I'm going to be in it. I'd probably be on the line or slightly left of it.
I've LEARNED that lesson the hard way... it's a lesson I would NOT care to repeat any time soon, thank you very much.
If, on the other hand, the rest of the lane was passable, then, by all means, I'd go around the bad part and use the rest of the lane.
I do, however, take exception to you implying that I can't handle my bike because of this one comment... I have many thousands of miles of experience, ranging from mountain bike trails to Urban cycling with plenty of traffic, on roads both with and without bike lanes, to mountain descents approaching 60 mph... I must be doing SOMETHING right.
Edit: And I never said that road scared me... just that I'd be in the lane (As the bike lane at that spot is pretty obviously unusable... unless you're riding really wide tires), or... if the entire road is in disrepair, I'd find a smoother route, if available and close.
bmclaughlin807
10-03-07, 10:53 PM
I don't have a problem with riding roads like that, washouts, ruts, or down that salt pile out where the county keeps their trucks, but some people, like my girlfriend, who has to ride a trike because her sense of balance isn't up to factory specs anymore, couldn't even get their ride to fit into a lane that narrow without bashing up against the curb, hooking the storm drain, or losing it in the torn up blacktop.
Not everyone can just hop out of the way when the road gets bad or the drivers get ugly.
Yep... not everyone is riding identical bikes... Like I said... on a MTB with fat knobbies that would be nothing at all... on a racing bike with 19 mm tires.... well, that's a different story altogether.
Not everyone can just hop out of the way when the road gets bad or the drivers get ugly.
Yep... not everyone is riding identical bikes... Like I said... on a MTB with fat knobbies that would be nothing at all... on a racing bike with 19 mm tires.... well, that's a different story altogether.
andrelam
10-04-07, 06:37 AM
Why do some folks hate bike lanes so much? I do agree that the picture provided presents a bike lane that is a joke. That is like building a road and putting some big ruts accross it and claiming you have a good road. Motorists would complain and it would eventually be fixed.
Here is all I desire from a road, official bike lane designation or not:
Reasonably smooth shoulder on the road, preferably about 4ft wide and not sloped too badly. With that I find I can ride in any traffic and the cars can do what they want on the sections between lights, and I can ride where I need to. I LIKE it when school busses and trucks can pass me safely without having to pull into on coming traffic. It is a win-win situation. I don't bother traffic, traffic doesn't bother me. When I get to an intersection I pull into traffic a bit and take a spot behind a vehicle. After an intersection I can go back to riding again.
I don't need a MUP. I just need some reasonable streets. I must admit that I do enjoy some of the bike paths in the Greater Buffalo NY area. I especially enjoy the one near my work that I use when I have to travel between our two offices. This is part of the Amherst bike path that runs along SUNY at Buffalo. Luckily our MUP is defined as a bike path and it seems to be used largely by cyclists and runners, and less so by walkers. Therefore I can ride comfortably at 15 to 17 MPH and not have to slow down to much. There is one section of this path that runs allong the Niagara River that is so packed with people walking that it is nearly unridable, but I don't go there often.
What I realy don't like: Narrow road with less than 4" of solid road next to the white line, then a 6' to 10' deep ditch - In other words, there is absolutely no room for error or I take one hell of a dive if I am ever forced off the side of the road. I have a road like this right next to my house and sadly it is the only way to travel the 2 miles it takes to get to a bike path that currently runs all the way from the Norther Suburbs to down town Buffalo, and soon to Lockport NY to join up with the Erie Canal Barge path trail. Every vehicle that wants to get by has to pull into oncoming traffic and it hinders them and makes life uncomfortable for me. I don't see how this somehow improves my interaction with cars. I know how to deal with traffic just fine, but don't get a thril from constant close calls.
Happy riding,
André
Here is all I desire from a road, official bike lane designation or not:
Reasonably smooth shoulder on the road, preferably about 4ft wide and not sloped too badly. With that I find I can ride in any traffic and the cars can do what they want on the sections between lights, and I can ride where I need to. I LIKE it when school busses and trucks can pass me safely without having to pull into on coming traffic. It is a win-win situation. I don't bother traffic, traffic doesn't bother me. When I get to an intersection I pull into traffic a bit and take a spot behind a vehicle. After an intersection I can go back to riding again.
I don't need a MUP. I just need some reasonable streets. I must admit that I do enjoy some of the bike paths in the Greater Buffalo NY area. I especially enjoy the one near my work that I use when I have to travel between our two offices. This is part of the Amherst bike path that runs along SUNY at Buffalo. Luckily our MUP is defined as a bike path and it seems to be used largely by cyclists and runners, and less so by walkers. Therefore I can ride comfortably at 15 to 17 MPH and not have to slow down to much. There is one section of this path that runs allong the Niagara River that is so packed with people walking that it is nearly unridable, but I don't go there often.
What I realy don't like: Narrow road with less than 4" of solid road next to the white line, then a 6' to 10' deep ditch - In other words, there is absolutely no room for error or I take one hell of a dive if I am ever forced off the side of the road. I have a road like this right next to my house and sadly it is the only way to travel the 2 miles it takes to get to a bike path that currently runs all the way from the Norther Suburbs to down town Buffalo, and soon to Lockport NY to join up with the Erie Canal Barge path trail. Every vehicle that wants to get by has to pull into oncoming traffic and it hinders them and makes life uncomfortable for me. I don't see how this somehow improves my interaction with cars. I know how to deal with traffic just fine, but don't get a thril from constant close calls.
Happy riding,
André
genec
10-04-07, 06:56 AM
This kind of post is really shocking to me.
The fact that folks are unable to negotiate that minor bit of bad pavement, gravel, and grate over a ten to fifteen foot bit of roadway, while staying in the bike line (like when you're filtering for example) is astounding.
If that looks like some big, scary challenge, how the hell do you ride your bike in a straight line?
Nah, its negotiable.
On my road bike I'd probably be right on the white line all the way, the 23cm tires would fit right into that gravel track, so I'd avoid it. My commuter wouldn't care at all (which is why I built it with fat tires), the commuter could handle any or all of it.
But the real issue is why some city worker or their supervisor felt it was a "suitable bike lane."
It is somewhat akin to calling this... http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20071004/images/land280.jpg
a suitable road. Sure, my 4WD Toyota might probably negotiate it, but I doubt a Porsche could handle it.
The fact that folks are unable to negotiate that minor bit of bad pavement, gravel, and grate over a ten to fifteen foot bit of roadway, while staying in the bike line (like when you're filtering for example) is astounding.
If that looks like some big, scary challenge, how the hell do you ride your bike in a straight line?
Nah, its negotiable.
On my road bike I'd probably be right on the white line all the way, the 23cm tires would fit right into that gravel track, so I'd avoid it. My commuter wouldn't care at all (which is why I built it with fat tires), the commuter could handle any or all of it.
But the real issue is why some city worker or their supervisor felt it was a "suitable bike lane."
It is somewhat akin to calling this... http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20071004/images/land280.jpg
a suitable road. Sure, my 4WD Toyota might probably negotiate it, but I doubt a Porsche could handle it.
noisebeam
10-04-07, 09:24 AM
This kind of post is really shocking to me.
The fact that folks are unable to negotiate that minor bit of bad pavement, gravel, and grate over a ten to fifteen foot bit of roadway, while staying in the bike line (like when you're filtering for example) is astounding.
If that looks like some big, scary challenge, how the hell do you ride your bike in a straight line?
What is shocking is not that some folks prefer not to ride this crap, but that some folks seem to be accepting such sub-standard road conditions. Cycling advocates should demand better.
Yeah, most everyone here could ride thru this without a problem on any type of bike. But it greatly increases the chance of a slip up especially if a good other portion of ones attention is on other traffic including watching for a potential right hooker.
Would I ride thur it? Likely never. If I needed to filter I go to the left.
Al
The fact that folks are unable to negotiate that minor bit of bad pavement, gravel, and grate over a ten to fifteen foot bit of roadway, while staying in the bike line (like when you're filtering for example) is astounding.
If that looks like some big, scary challenge, how the hell do you ride your bike in a straight line?
What is shocking is not that some folks prefer not to ride this crap, but that some folks seem to be accepting such sub-standard road conditions. Cycling advocates should demand better.
Yeah, most everyone here could ride thru this without a problem on any type of bike. But it greatly increases the chance of a slip up especially if a good other portion of ones attention is on other traffic including watching for a potential right hooker.
Would I ride thur it? Likely never. If I needed to filter I go to the left.
Al
sbhikes
10-04-07, 10:11 AM
Pete has a point. Some roads are as bad or worse than that bike lane. I've ridden with my Vespa on some roads I'm lucky to have lived through. The problem isn't the bike lane, it's that our infrastructure as a whole is crumbling.
genec
10-04-07, 10:40 AM
My money would be on the Porsche doing a better job than a 4WD Toyota.
That is if the slide stayed in place long enough for them to both try it.
Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance? Most of them I see around here look like they are set up for well groomed roads.
Powerwise of course the Porsche is a clear winner... But ground clearance might be more of an issue.
As far as it staying in place... your guess is as good as mine... the earth there seems to be shifting by the hour.
That is if the slide stayed in place long enough for them to both try it.
Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance? Most of them I see around here look like they are set up for well groomed roads.
Powerwise of course the Porsche is a clear winner... But ground clearance might be more of an issue.
As far as it staying in place... your guess is as good as mine... the earth there seems to be shifting by the hour.
genec
10-04-07, 10:45 AM
Pete has a point. Some roads are as bad or worse than that bike lane. I've ridden with my Vespa on some roads I'm lucky to have lived through. The problem isn't the bike lane, it's that our infrastructure as a whole is crumbling.
Yup, pretty much why I built my commuter to handle broken pavement, small pot holes and the usual arrangement of junk commonly known as a public street.
It is somewhat ironic however that the American cycling public has been sold this bill of goods based on ultralight "racing bikes" vice practical bikes... especially considering that the American driving public seems to be going the route of "off road" SUV.
Of course MTBs have also made their stand at the same time.
Yup, pretty much why I built my commuter to handle broken pavement, small pot holes and the usual arrangement of junk commonly known as a public street.
It is somewhat ironic however that the American cycling public has been sold this bill of goods based on ultralight "racing bikes" vice practical bikes... especially considering that the American driving public seems to be going the route of "off road" SUV.
Of course MTBs have also made their stand at the same time.
genec
10-04-07, 10:47 AM
Yes. Ground clearance, locking differential, etc.
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/rr/images/04cayenne_2.jpg
Really, what is the ground clearance of a typical Porsche?
Compare and contrast to a typical 4wd Toyota?
(I have a Toyota handy and can measure that... Don't happen to have a Porsche handy... )
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/rr/images/04cayenne_2.jpg
Really, what is the ground clearance of a typical Porsche?
Compare and contrast to a typical 4wd Toyota?
(I have a Toyota handy and can measure that... Don't happen to have a Porsche handy... )
mwrobe1
10-04-07, 10:50 AM
It looks like it tapers down to about 6" at the narrowest bit. Yes, it's shocking that people cannot ride their bike through that section.
If you can't handle that bit of bike lane then you have bike handling issues.
+1
Moreover...that represents what, like 3-4 feet of the entire bike lane. How is the rest of the xx miles of it?
Avoid the grate...straddle the line...problem solved.
As someone else said...yeah...I also ride on some roads that (in some parts) are worse than that. So "Who likes roads" indeed.
If you can't handle that bit of bike lane then you have bike handling issues.
+1
Moreover...that represents what, like 3-4 feet of the entire bike lane. How is the rest of the xx miles of it?
Avoid the grate...straddle the line...problem solved.
As someone else said...yeah...I also ride on some roads that (in some parts) are worse than that. So "Who likes roads" indeed.
noisebeam
10-04-07, 10:55 AM
The question is not if the lane is ridable or not. It is why should a poor section of pavement be striped as a bike lane at all?
Al
Al
Helmet Head
10-04-07, 11:11 AM
Really, what is the ground clearance of a typical Porsche?
Compare and contrast to a typical 4wd Toyota?
(I have a Toyota handy and can measure that... Don't happen to have a Porsche handy... )
Typical Porsche? You're changing the challenge. Originally you said:
"... I doubt a Porsche could handle it." and "Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance?" A Porsche. Nothing about a typical Porsche.
Anyway, the ground clearance for a Porsche (http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne/featuresandspecs/?gtabindex=7) is 10.7" at max setting on the air suspension, which of course one would use here. To compare, the ground clearance of a Land Cruiser is 9.8".
Compare and contrast to a typical 4wd Toyota?
(I have a Toyota handy and can measure that... Don't happen to have a Porsche handy... )
Typical Porsche? You're changing the challenge. Originally you said:
"... I doubt a Porsche could handle it." and "Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance?" A Porsche. Nothing about a typical Porsche.
Anyway, the ground clearance for a Porsche (http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne/featuresandspecs/?gtabindex=7) is 10.7" at max setting on the air suspension, which of course one would use here. To compare, the ground clearance of a Land Cruiser is 9.8".
Helmet Head
10-04-07, 11:17 AM
Why do some folks hate bike lanes so much?
I don't hate bike lanes. Personally, I ignore them. What I hate is the widely accepted notion that bicyclists are second-class users of the road who have a safety-related, practical, etiquette-related and/or legal obligation to get and stay out of the way of the primary users: motorists . While I recognize that there are appropriate times and places for slow moving drivers, including bicyclists, to move aside to allow faster traffic to pass, when it is safe and reasonable to do so, I think this notion has gone way, way too far, is anti-cyclist and anti-cycling, and I seek to change it.
I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
I don't hate bike lanes. Personally, I ignore them. What I hate is the widely accepted notion that bicyclists are second-class users of the road who have a safety-related, practical, etiquette-related and/or legal obligation to get and stay out of the way of the primary users: motorists . While I recognize that there are appropriate times and places for slow moving drivers, including bicyclists, to move aside to allow faster traffic to pass, when it is safe and reasonable to do so, I think this notion has gone way, way too far, is anti-cyclist and anti-cycling, and I seek to change it.
I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
genec
10-04-07, 11:27 AM
Typical Porsche? You're changing the challenge. Originally you said:
"... I doubt a Porsche could handle it." and "Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance?" A Porsche. Nothing about a typical Porsche.
Anyway, the ground clearance for a Porsche (http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne/featuresandspecs/?gtabindex=7) is 10.7" at max setting on the air suspension, which of course one would use here. To compare, the ground clearance of a Land Cruiser is 9.8".
OK let me get very specific, just in case Porsche has now introduced their version of an SUV or SEV or SAV or whatever. Porsche 944 verses the rather gutless '91 Toyota Hilux 4WD.
And yeah, you're right, the Land Cruiser has lousy ground clearance compared to my old reliable 4WD Hilux with about 11+ inches of ground clearance.
"... I doubt a Porsche could handle it." and "Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance?" A Porsche. Nothing about a typical Porsche.
Anyway, the ground clearance for a Porsche (http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/cayenne/cayenne/featuresandspecs/?gtabindex=7) is 10.7" at max setting on the air suspension, which of course one would use here. To compare, the ground clearance of a Land Cruiser is 9.8".
OK let me get very specific, just in case Porsche has now introduced their version of an SUV or SEV or SAV or whatever. Porsche 944 verses the rather gutless '91 Toyota Hilux 4WD.
And yeah, you're right, the Land Cruiser has lousy ground clearance compared to my old reliable 4WD Hilux with about 11+ inches of ground clearance.
genec
10-04-07, 11:30 AM
Typical Porsche? You're changing the challenge. Originally you said:
"... I doubt a Porsche could handle it." and "Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance?" A Porsche. Nothing about a typical Porsche.
Yeah but in my mind I had a picture of a Porsche... and a picture of my Toyota... that Porsche picture was the 944... so that is what I saw as "typical."
Oh what the heck, it was meant as a light joke anyway.
Interesting issues regarding ground clearance though.
Care to compare road hazards to 23c tires verses 38c bike tires? (this is after all a bike forum)
"... I doubt a Porsche could handle it." and "Do you think a Porsche would have the ground clearance?" A Porsche. Nothing about a typical Porsche.
Yeah but in my mind I had a picture of a Porsche... and a picture of my Toyota... that Porsche picture was the 944... so that is what I saw as "typical."
Oh what the heck, it was meant as a light joke anyway.
Interesting issues regarding ground clearance though.
Care to compare road hazards to 23c tires verses 38c bike tires? (this is after all a bike forum)
bmclaughlin807
10-04-07, 11:32 AM
It looks like it tapers down to about 6" at the narrowest bit. Yes, it's shocking that people cannot ride their bike through that section.
Make that two comments now (see below). If you can't handle that bit of bike lane then you have bike handling issues.
that looks like less than 6" to me... unless those are some MONSTER curbs they've got going there...
Regardless.... How long can you maintain a straight line in 8" or so of space while keeping an eye on traffic??? You're kidding yourself if you think you can ride safely in such a small area and negotiate traffic. If the road is lightly traveled, then there's not really any worry about traffic, anyway... and no real point to having a bike lane.
If the road is in bad shape (No real evidence that it is, but IF) I'd choose a different road, if available.... Why would I want to deal with a bad road if I don't have to?
I'm sure YOU, on the other hand would happily choose the nasty, rutted gravel road over a nice, smoothly paved one, just so you can lord your better bike handling skills over someone else.
Make that two comments now (see below). If you can't handle that bit of bike lane then you have bike handling issues.
that looks like less than 6" to me... unless those are some MONSTER curbs they've got going there...
Regardless.... How long can you maintain a straight line in 8" or so of space while keeping an eye on traffic??? You're kidding yourself if you think you can ride safely in such a small area and negotiate traffic. If the road is lightly traveled, then there's not really any worry about traffic, anyway... and no real point to having a bike lane.
If the road is in bad shape (No real evidence that it is, but IF) I'd choose a different road, if available.... Why would I want to deal with a bad road if I don't have to?
I'm sure YOU, on the other hand would happily choose the nasty, rutted gravel road over a nice, smoothly paved one, just so you can lord your better bike handling skills over someone else.
noisebeam
10-04-07, 11:35 AM
I would hazard ;) a guess that the remainder of the road is much better suited and in relatively good condition vs. the striped BL in this specific case.
Why send a message to both cyclist and motorists that cyclists should be in the least ridable and most hazardous portion of the roadway?
Al
Why send a message to both cyclist and motorists that cyclists should be in the least ridable and most hazardous portion of the roadway?
Al
genec
10-04-07, 11:42 AM
I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
Personally I think it is the mere presence of the gas pedal that forms that notion more than paint on the road...
Personally I think it is the mere presence of the gas pedal that forms that notion more than paint on the road...
filtersweep
10-04-07, 11:44 AM
That is not the point at all. If you ride the line, some car will feel perfectly entitled to give you two inches passing of room, because he/she is in one lane and you are in the other.
Nah, its negotiable.
Nah, its negotiable.
noisebeam
10-04-07, 11:48 AM
That is not the point at all. If you ride the line, some car will feel perfectly entitled to give you two inches passing of room, because he/she is in one lane and you are in the other.
Exactly (assuming it is the driver that has feelings, not the car)
Al
Exactly (assuming it is the driver that has feelings, not the car)
Al
TRaffic Jammer
10-04-07, 11:52 AM
I'm of the mind BL's are unswept, glass and pebble strewn after thoughts that I avoid for the most part. THAT thing the op posted is a bloody death trap!
Helmet Head
10-04-07, 11:53 AM
I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
Personally I think it is the mere presence of the gas pedal that forms that notion more than paint on the road...
Perhaps, but there is no need to have a p!$$ing contest about which factor is most responsible for the existence and sustainment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sustainment) of the anti-cycling stay out of the way notion.
My point stands independent of the influence of any and all other factors, or their relative contributions: I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
Personally I think it is the mere presence of the gas pedal that forms that notion more than paint on the road...
Perhaps, but there is no need to have a p!$$ing contest about which factor is most responsible for the existence and sustainment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sustainment) of the anti-cycling stay out of the way notion.
My point stands independent of the influence of any and all other factors, or their relative contributions: I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
noisebeam
10-04-07, 11:56 AM
"Send a message" to motorists? I doubt that a motorist would even notice that poorly filled crack and/or grate. I can just see what would happen if they did notice it as they were cruising by:
"Send a message" to cyclists? The message that it sends to me is that there's some shoddy road work going on, not that I should be in the least ridable and most hazardous portion of the roadway.
That's exactly right. Motorist very likely do not notice the shoddy pavement & grate, but they are very likely aware that there is and has been a bike lane and that a cyclist for no apparent reason is not riding in it.
Al
"Send a message" to cyclists? The message that it sends to me is that there's some shoddy road work going on, not that I should be in the least ridable and most hazardous portion of the roadway.
That's exactly right. Motorist very likely do not notice the shoddy pavement & grate, but they are very likely aware that there is and has been a bike lane and that a cyclist for no apparent reason is not riding in it.
Al
genec
10-04-07, 11:58 AM
Perhaps, but there is no need to have a p!$$ing contest about which factor is most responsible for the existence and sustainment (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=sustainment) of the anti-cycling stay out of the way notion.
My point stands independent of the influence of any and all other factors, or their relative contributions: I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
OK just to p!$$ on it some more... then why is the attitude expressed that cyclists should get out of the way of cars, when no such lanes exist? (and long before BL existed... )
It ain't the BL... it is the notion that bikes are toys and cars are for grownups. (the whole "rite of passage" of getting a Driver's license reinforces this... along with bikes being in toy departments at the big box stores... etc)
Sorry, but in the minds of typical Americans, bikes are not for transportation. Period.
My point stands independent of the influence of any and all other factors, or their relative contributions: I believe the mere presence of bike lanes, indeed the very concept of a bike lane, reinforces that anti-cyclist notion about the stay out of the way obligation.
OK just to p!$$ on it some more... then why is the attitude expressed that cyclists should get out of the way of cars, when no such lanes exist? (and long before BL existed... )
It ain't the BL... it is the notion that bikes are toys and cars are for grownups. (the whole "rite of passage" of getting a Driver's license reinforces this... along with bikes being in toy departments at the big box stores... etc)
Sorry, but in the minds of typical Americans, bikes are not for transportation. Period.
Helmet Head
10-04-07, 11:59 AM
Am I a second-class user of the road when I'm towing a boat and I'm subject to different rules than other road users? Nope.
Am I a second-class user of the road when I'm on my bike? I certainly don't feel like that. I'm just a guy on a bike having fun (usually) getting from one place to another.
What does one have to do to acquire this victim mentality that you describe above?
What one has to do to acquire the mentality I describe is accept that as a bicyclist he has the obligation to stay out of the way of same-direction motorists. This is perhaps best exemplified by feeling that if he can't stay out of the way of same-direction motorists in some given situation, then he should probably not be on that road.
Am I a second-class user of the road when I'm on my bike? I certainly don't feel like that. I'm just a guy on a bike having fun (usually) getting from one place to another.
What does one have to do to acquire this victim mentality that you describe above?
What one has to do to acquire the mentality I describe is accept that as a bicyclist he has the obligation to stay out of the way of same-direction motorists. This is perhaps best exemplified by feeling that if he can't stay out of the way of same-direction motorists in some given situation, then he should probably not be on that road.
noisebeam
10-04-07, 12:01 PM
So, in your mind, the mere presence of a bike lane stripe (after all you agree that the motorists very likely do not notice the gravel and grate) sends a message to motorists that cyclists should be in the least ridable and most hazardous portion of the roadway?
Yes, but not because it is the least ridable and most hazardous, but because it is the lane marked with a bike icon.
Al
Yes, but not because it is the least ridable and most hazardous, but because it is the lane marked with a bike icon.
Al
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