I'm temporarily back. I've been up and unable to sleep since 1:30. It's just past 3 am and I'm having the reaction I expected after coming from from 10 days in and around London. I hope I can get back in the swing of things in a couple of days. I have work soon and then I'll be off the boards again to take care of my wife. While I'm up, bikeforums.net beckons.
I sure was glad to see the city I've read much and talked much about. A first hand experience makes an impression like nothing else. I'd sure like to hear from others who have been or lived there to see what they have to say.
I managed to walk (a lot), take cabs, be driven, taken the bus, the tube, the train and even drove there and all that I had expected turned out to be true. If I spent more time, I'm sure I would have picked up more and seen drivers rude or not up to snuff, but what I experienced were perhaps the most skilled, patient, practical, civilized drivers I've ever encountered.
Not much room and lots of people, London driving is very co-operative. Drivers of all kinds pull u-turns in busy traffic, cyclists and motor cyclists split lanes, people stop mid block on roads barely big enough for 1 car to get by on and cars behind, just pass at the best opportunity. At frequent, designated cross walks, driver just stop for any pedestrian walking up to it. All of this done without a concern. Use of horn taps, light flashes and waving all help drivers communicate with each other. Many cyclists used bells.
Cycling is very popular. All kinds. Many cyclists are regular people in regular clothes. Brompton folding bikes were popular and saw many folded up and being brought onto trains. Fenders were not as common as I would have thought in rainy London, but many did have them. I saw cyclists ride vehicularily and against the flow of traffic, on sidewalks and pathways, with lights and without after dusk but all bikes were respected and given equal rights and respect as all other road users. I don't think there was any social stigma with riding bikes. I saw business men in suits riding them as well as all other kinds of people.
Helmets were present but not prevelent. If I had to guess, I'd say the reports I've read pegging the rate of wear at 18% was probably right, but I'm not sure if there were that many wearing them.
It seems skill and co-operation with traffic was the prevelent impression I had.
I took a picture of a Royal Mail bike next to a pub where I had lunch one day (and so was the postman) because it kind of summed up the ultalitarian use the Brits have with bicycles. These bikes are much used and I couldn't understand how in North America, we don't use this most efficient tool of transportation more.
Thanks for taking time to post this, CB :)
I cant wait to get to London !
And as always, best thoughts and wishes to life
getting back to some normalcy for your Wife and you.
ivegotabike
10-06-07, 06:26 AM
everybody rides on the wrond side of the street, thats what i observed... crazy *******s. Largest concentration of wrong way cyclist and even motorists ive ever seen
markf
10-06-07, 10:06 AM
Interesting post. Now go to any British cycling website and read about lunatic bus drivers, motorists who don't respect cyclists, crappy cycling facilities, truck drivers left hooking cyclists (sometimes killing them in the process), etc., etc. I've cycled very briefly in London, and a certain amount in the rest of the UK (Wales, Scotland), and I agree that there's a fair bit of truth to what you say. My overall impression wasn't quite as rosy as yours, though, I did see more harassment and aggressive driving than I wanted too. It's worth pointing out that the UK has a lower traffic fatality rate than the US, measured by deaths per vehicle mile or by deaths per capita of population. Personally I think it's because the British driving environment requires a higher level of attention than the American driving environment.
ralph12
10-06-07, 10:52 AM
everybody rides on the wrond side of the street, thats what i observed... crazy *******s. Largest concentration of wrong way cyclist and even motorists ive ever seen
:D
closetbiker
10-06-07, 03:01 PM
Interesting post. Now go to any British cycling website and read about lunatic bus drivers, motorists who don't respect cyclists, crappy cycling facilities, truck drivers left hooking cyclists (sometimes killing them in the process), etc., etc. I've cycled very briefly in London, and a certain amount in the rest of the UK (Wales, Scotland), and I agree that there's a fair bit of truth to what you say. My overall impression wasn't quite as rosy as yours, though, I did see more harassment and aggressive driving than I wanted too. It's worth pointing out that the UK has a lower traffic fatality rate than the US, measured by deaths per vehicle mile or by deaths per capita of population. Personally I think it's because the British driving environment requires a higher level of attention than the American driving environment.
I can only give an impression of what I saw in a very brief time, and I'm sure there are problems, it's just that in comparrison to what I see here, it's much more co-operative and considering the tiny streets and massive amount of traffic, I'm more convinced than ever, it's not so much the facilities or room that keep cyclists safe as it is an attitude of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians that keep every one safe. I was especially impressed with the lane splitting with a hairs width clearance between the bikes handlebars and drivers doors.
-=Łem in Pa=-
10-06-07, 03:16 PM
I'm more convinced than ever, it's not so much the facilities or room that keep cyclists safe as it is an attitude of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians that keep every one safe. .
Great observation.
This has been my belief for years and the biggest issue I have with the VC Hale Boppers.....
Culture is going to determine a cyclists overall 'quality-of-ride' (?) not laws, practices, theories,
interweb arguments etc......
closetbiker
10-07-07, 04:12 AM
.....
Culture is going to determine a cyclists overall 'quality-of-ride' (?) not laws, practices, theories,
interweb arguments etc......
which is why I think advocacy is so important.
too many people on this side of the pond, think it's me first, not, lets all just get along. If the cycling advocates can relate that by giving cyclists a fair shake (or fair access) we'll all be better off and move along more smoothly.
Maybe one of the reasons London traffic is so so-operative is they're all used to (and good at) queuing. They realize that a cyclist releives congestion and if they just give the cyclist some room, maybe when they need some room, someone will give it to them.
and to markf's point that, the UK has a lower traffic fatality rate than the US, measured by deaths per vehicle mile or by deaths per capita of population, I'd add that this is acheived with, generally speaking, much more difficult roadways to ride on and far more vehicles to deal with.
Maybe some of the cash going into bike facilities could go into driver education and enforcement. Maybe attitudes will improve as street become more conjested (but I know there are a lot of people who would disagree) * but most important I think, is the attitude of co-operation despite the circumstances *
Az B
10-07-07, 06:37 AM
Personally I think it's because the British driving environment requires a higher level of attention than the American driving environment.
And education. It's very expensive and difficult to get a driver's license over there. Not like the US, where we hand out licenses like bottles of water to anyone who asks for one. But culture obviously has a lot to do with it.
I lived in London for a year and found a car to be a liability there. Walking, taking the Tube, riding either bikes or motorbikes were far better options.
Az
donnamb
10-07-07, 09:23 AM
Maybe some of the cash going into bike facilities could go into driver education and enforcement. Maybe attitudes will improve as street become more conjested (but I know there are a lot of people who would disagree) * but most important I think, is the attitude of co-operation despite the circumstances *
Here's the problem I see with that, at least in my part of the US. Our traffic laws and drivers' licensing are regulated at the state level. All the Oregon legislature members are drivers and they all think they're great drivers. They take this further and assume that most people are great drivers and don't need any more education and training than what they get. For example, they have consistently killed any legislation introduced to put restrictions on cell phone usage while driving. That's because they do it constantly and don't want to be inconvenienced by such a law. Besides, they're such good drivers - they never have a problem with driving and talking on a cell phone at the same time. :rolleyes: There was a 3 foot passing bill this legislative session. The consistent reason cited for not supporting it was that it was too onerous a thing to expect of motorists. This happens with most proposed legislation that involves behavior change on the part of motorists.
If something were to change in this area, it would have to come at the federal level. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon in this country. Besides bridges, there isn't much interest in the domestic general welfare in Washington, DC these days - at least not enough to effect meaningful change.
Maybe one of the reasons London traffic is so so-operative is they're all used to (and good at) queuing. They realize that a cyclist releives congestion and if they just give the cyclist some room, maybe when they need some room, someone will give it to them.
Motorists still haven't realized it in Portland, despite very visual evidence (while they're sitting in traffic) that there are fewer cars on the road because of all the bikes. I've wondered about this a lot. Could it be when you're raised in a place where there's a real physical limit to how much roads can be widened/added, you're more willing to think rationally about these things? I don't think there can be an attitude change until people stop believing that you can build your way out of all traffic problems. To my mind, the one advantage London and other European cities have is that they can't delude themselves into believing that if they just widen the road and increase speeds, all will be well again.
noisebeam
10-07-07, 01:04 PM
I've spend many weeks in London and noticed that except when filtering, many (3/4?) cyclists fully use the lane. Low powered motor/moped-cycles also filtered with the cyclists.
Al
JeanCoutu
10-07-07, 01:09 PM
London looks like a cool place to ride, small cars and people swear at you in a lovely british accent.
See first vid on top left:
http://www.digave.com/videos/index.htm
AndrewP
10-07-07, 07:02 PM
I am just back from 3 weeks in England (London and S Devon). I found the drivers very cooperative because it is necessary for survival when many roads are only 2 cars wide and cars are parked on both sides of the road. In the village of Harbiton in S Devon I had to fold in both door mirrors to get through one lane. The previous time I was there I biked in London and found both bus and taxi drivers most considerate, but the narrow bike lanes in car door zones were a pain.
closetbiker
10-08-07, 06:31 AM
I've spend many weeks in London and noticed that except when filtering, many (3/4?) cyclists fully use the lane. Low powered motor/moped-cycles also filtered with the cyclists.
Al
Yup, they do. And no one seems to mind.
I tried to take some candid pics, but things often happened too fast to whip out the camera, but I did get this one.
Here's the problem I see with that, at least in my part of the US. Our traffic laws and drivers' licensing are regulated at the state level. All the Oregon legislature members are drivers and they all think they're great drivers. They take this further and assume that most people are great drivers and don't need any more education and training than what they get. For example, they have consistently killed any legislation introduced to put restrictions on cell phone usage while driving. That's because they do it constantly and don't want to be inconvenienced by such a law. Besides, they're such good drivers - they never have a problem with driving and talking on a cell phone at the same time. :rolleyes: There was a 3 foot passing bill this legislative session. The consistent reason cited for not supporting it was that it was too onerous a thing to expect of motorists. This happens with most proposed legislation that involves behavior change on the part of motorists.
If something were to change in this area, it would have to come at the federal level. Unfortunately, I don't see that happening anytime soon in this country. Besides bridges, there isn't much interest in the domestic general welfare in Washington, DC these days - at least not enough to effect meaningful change.
Motorists still haven't realized it in Portland, despite very visual evidence (while they're sitting in traffic) that there are fewer cars on the road because of all the bikes. I've wondered about this a lot. Could it be when you're raised in a place where there's a real physical limit to how much roads can be widened/added, you're more willing to think rationally about these things? I don't think there can be an attitude change until people stop believing that you can build your way out of all traffic problems. To my mind, the one advantage London and other European cities have is that they can't delude themselves into believing that if they just widen the road and increase speeds, all will be well again.
Interesting opinions. I tend to agree with you on these.
I think that we in the US still indeed have room to improve things, but adding another car lane is not the answer... there should be a massive campaign to add bike paths everywhere. A single well built bike path takes less real estate than a lane each way for an automobile. A decent well built bike path is about 9 feet wide and should be designed with speeds of about 25MPH in mind. A path this wide is patrolable and cleanable using regular width vehicles, yet forms a nice two way traffic path for cyclists.
By devoting funding to real infrastructure for cyclists, rather than "sidewalk paths" or lines of paint I believe that cycling will be encouraged for all vice those willing to "brave" traffic. Talk to anyone that doesn't cycle now but has a bike, and one of the often heard complaints is "you must be crazy to ride in traffic... " No matter how safe it really is, the perception is going to keep folks from doing it.
dpr
10-08-07, 07:55 AM
London looks like a cool place to ride, small cars and people swear at you in a lovely british accent.
See first vid on top left:
http://www.digave.com/videos/index.htm
The video shocked me so much I have contacted the London police about it. Idiots like that deserve a loss of liberty for such behaviour. Absolutely astounding. :mad:
closetbiker
10-08-07, 08:14 AM
... A single well built bike path takes less real estate than a lane each way for an automobile. A decent well built bike path is about 9 feet wide and should be designed with speeds of about 25MPH in mind. A path this wide is patrolable and cleanable using regular width vehicles, yet forms a nice two way traffic path for cyclists...
I was driving on some roads with two way traffic and parking with cyclists that were 9 feet wide.
Just enough room for 1 at a time to get by. Cars parked up on the curb.
Id hate to have to zip zag along those bike lane lines
closetbiker
10-08-07, 08:28 AM
those aren't bike lanes
closetbiker
10-09-07, 08:55 AM
Here's the problem I see with that, at least in my part of the US. Our traffic laws and drivers' licensing are regulated at the state level...they all think they're great drivers. They...don't want to be inconvenienced ...If something were to change in this area, it would have to come at the federal level. ...
Could it be when you're raised in a place where there's a real physical limit to how much roads can be widened/added, you're more willing to think rationally about these things? I don't think there can be an attitude change until people stop believing that you can build your way out of all traffic problems....
the cultural differences are interesting because I live in an area that has a large amount of recent immigrants that come from the other side of the globe (China, India) where crowds and conjestion are the norm and so is chaos in traffic. Also in my area are the Japanese, and in Japan, traffic is about as impressive as London. Tremendous order and patience.
The US is a "me first" attitude, in London, people queue for the good of all.
I wish it was just a space or legislation issue but I think it goes deeper, but at least through legislation and enforcement of that legislation, maybe behavior change change a bit at a time. Maybe that'll change attitudes. Right now, some places have half hearted or watered down attempts at good legislation and enforcement is negligible. If the cops went out and hit hard at poor driving behavior that leads to collisions, maybe the death rates would drop, but who would vote for a politician that supports giving out tickets and restrictions to his/her constituants?
genec
10-09-07, 10:10 AM
I was driving on some roads with two way traffic and parking with cyclists that were 9 feet wide.
Just enough room for 1 at a time to get by. Cars parked up on the curb.
I know what you mean. What I am saying is that the US still has room to add such paths to their real estate vice adding another two lanes to roads to support more vehicle traffic... which is usually the "solution" that officials seek.
Rather than adding 18 feet of pavement to support cars, I think we should add only 9 feet of pavement and support cycling as a way to reduce congestion.
This could hardly be done in places like London where the roads have existed for hundreds of years. But the US is a relatively new country with open space that can either be used to support two more car lanes (the typical "solution," or one two way decent path for bikes.)
Based on an ever increasing cost of oil and thus fuel, I believe we should start looking at serious infrastructure for cycling vice more road for cars.
closetbiker
10-09-07, 11:13 AM
...Based on an ever increasing cost of oil and thus fuel, I believe we should start looking at serious infrastructure for cycling vice more road for cars.
yeah. encouraging car use, by any means, can only lead to more conjestion
genec
10-09-07, 12:34 PM
yeah. encouraging car use, by any means, can only lead to more conjestion
So far that has always been the case.
Portland is trying something different by advocating for bicycle use... in an effort to keep auto congestion contained. Thus far they have the highest ridership of any area in America.
London is trying something different by adding fees to motorists who wish to drive in the city center, thus encouraging people to find other means to get around, such as by bicycle. (as you noticed)
Boston has dug a huge hole in the ground in which to place cars on a parallel hiway to the existing road infrastructure that was an earlier "solution" to congestion... apparently they still don't "get it" in Boston.
Meanwhile, few places have come to grips with the idea that the road infrastructure simply won't support all the vehicles that can possibly be brought into an area, and that infrastructure has to be maintained, and the more there is, the more the maintenance costs.
Perhaps a novel idea will brighten in someone's head that trying to get cars off the road might be a better approach, and that a bicycle takes up less than 1/4th the space of a motor car. And most cars are driven by one person, for relatively short distance trips...
Id hate to have to zip zag along those bike lane lines[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming that wasa joke..> :D But yeah, that's called a zebra crossing. There's no traffic light or anything, vehicles just have to stop.
And they do, they tend to even if you're a cyclist and stopped hanging onto the pole in order to cross lanes. Which they don't have to obviously...
doktoravalanche
10-09-07, 01:02 PM
I've spend many weeks in London and noticed that except when filtering, many (3/4?) cyclists fully use the lane. Low powered motor/moped-cycles also filtered with the cyclists.
Al
filtering's allowed, as long as you pass on the right (ie overtake correctly - we drive on the left..).
Interestingly, we have a TV show along the lines of 'TRAFFIC COPSS!!!' type US shows, which was on last night and in between the chase footage, ran a quick feature on how not to get squashed by trucks, showing a bike parked on the left (by the kerb) of a truck when it turned left (US citizens, mirror this in your heads) getting fully mushed by the rear wheels of the truck trailer. The advice given was 'always overtake stationary vehicles on the right' (ie on the outside, not the kerbside) rather than 'don't overtake at all'.
pm63
10-09-07, 01:28 PM
But yeah, that's called a zebra crossing. There's no traffic light or anything, vehicles just have to stop.
:D Hahahah! Sorry, but living in London all my life it is funny to hear someone explaining such a well known concept and how it works. Don't take offence, to me it's like someone explaining how to use stairs although to people not from England it may be new.
I agree, London has the highest "well manered" motorist/cyclist culture out of any city I've been too. However, if you stick around you should notice that busses and vans do not have that much respect for cyclists, although overall we are treated very well.
closetbiker
10-09-07, 02:32 PM
...yeah, that's called a zebra crossing. There's no traffic light or anything, vehicles just have to stop.
And they do, ...
yes, they do. it's pretty amazing. Just walk up, and they stop. Much to my delight when I visited hallowed ground :D
I lived and rode in London for nearly a year in the mid nineties. While my view isn't quite as rosy as closetbikers, I do agree that the traffic there, in general, is some of the most civilised you're likely to encounter.
noisebeam
10-09-07, 06:50 PM
My grandmother commuted by bicycle in the London area for about 40yrs before she retired. Her trips varied between 5-9mi depending on where she worked. There were no stories, no 'interesting events' to tell about.
Al
donnamb
10-11-07, 11:48 AM
I was driving on some roads with two way traffic and parking with cyclists that were 9 feet wide.
Just enough room for 1 at a time to get by. Cars parked up on the curb.
IMO, those are great situations in which to ride a bike. Car speed and bike speed equalized and everyone has to pay attention. In many parts of North America, a road like that is considered a "problem", and the "solution" is to widen it so speeds can increase.
donnamb
10-11-07, 11:56 AM
the cultural differences are interesting because I live in an area that has a large amount of recent immigrants that come from the other side of the globe (China, India) where crowds and conjestion are the norm and so is chaos in traffic. Also in my area are the Japanese, and in Japan, traffic is about as impressive as London. Tremendous order and patience.
The US is a "me first" attitude, in London, people queue for the good of all.
I wish it was just a space or legislation issue but I think it goes deeper, but at least through legislation and enforcement of that legislation, maybe behavior change change a bit at a time. Maybe that'll change attitudes. Right now, some places have half hearted or watered down attempts at good legislation and enforcement is negligible. If the cops went out and hit hard at poor driving behavior that leads to collisions, maybe the death rates would drop, but who would vote for a politician that supports giving out tickets and restrictions to his/her constituants?
Are Canadian PNWers known for their patience and reserve as compared to other parts of Canada? American PNWers have that reputation, and having lived in other parts of the US, I feel it is deserved. I think Portland's success in increasing bicycle traffic is due in part to those cultural differences in the Pacific Northwest.
doktoravalanche
10-11-07, 01:15 PM
:D Hahahah! Sorry, but living in London all my life it is funny to hear someone explaining such a well known concept and how it works. Don't take offence, to me it's like someone explaining how to use stairs although to people not from England it may be new.
I agree, London has the highest "well manered" motorist/cyclist culture out of any city I've been too. However, if you stick around you should notice that busses and vans do not have that much respect for cyclists, although overall we are treated very well.
TBH I thought i might be taking the pea writing it, but when you think about it, in our society of CCTV, health & safety and "don't do that!!" signs everywhere, the idea of painting some lines on the road and expecting traffic to just stop is actually quite unusual.. Who'da thunk it, treat people like reasonable adults, and they actually behave in kind...
PS, the PRK is secretly Cornwall. Don't tell anybody... :D
closetbiker
10-13-07, 06:48 PM
Are Canadian PNWers known for their patience and reserve as compared to other parts of Canada? American PNWers have that reputation, and having lived in other parts of the US, I feel it is deserved. I think Portland's success in increasing bicycle traffic is due in part to those cultural differences in the Pacific Northwest.
I think there are regional and cultural disparites in different areas of the country.
I've driven in LA and Toronto and they both were far more agressive than BC. Alberta is very polite but if you don't follow protocol, they can be just as nasty. They generally drive bigger vehicles faster too.
Each geographic area has it's challenges too.
From what I've read and heard from others who have driven in other areas, it's like Boston and Miami are as different from Seattle and Vancouver as I'm sure Edmonton is different from them as Kansas City is.
All quite odd given that laws are not much different from place to place. It's the attitude that counts.
I find the helmet thing interesting too. Not too many people wear them in London and they're in and out and all over traffic in tight quarters. Not just the young either. Old women, with purses in baskets too. Their death and injury rate is much lower than the US and Canada where helmets are used much more despite this interaction with traffic. The attitude of the few cyclists that I managed to chat with about helmets is not much difference from my own. (They could help in minor collisions, but not much good in collisions with MVs).
Prevention of collisions is far more important and the odds of hitting the head when riding, is as low as hitting your head doing anything else. Here we have lifetime riders who think there not much difference between walking riding or driving. Just be aware and careful to avoid collisions and you'll be fine.
I don't think there is the obsession the US and Canada have about collisions. I think they're more concerned with using the roads correctly, whereas here, I think we worry about collisions more than using the roads correctly.
I too found London to have some of the most civilised traffic I've encountered anywhere, and my cycling experience there started in the rain immediately after a 26-hour flight!
For me the best thing about riding there was the fact that it just isn't such a big deal the way it is in Australia (and apparently the US, too). For me it comes back to what cycling advocates haven't done there more so than what they have. In this country there has been a move to try to politicise cycling and tie it into a lot of other political issues that quite simply have nothing to do with cycling. This doesn't appear to have happened in London. At one point I even heard a radio debate regarding the mayoral elections in London, and the guy presenting the conservative viewpoint was a cyclist. That thought in itself would probably make the majority of "advocates" in this country start foaming at the mouth and firing off a string of insults.
My full opinion on this can be found here. (http://life-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/07/london-experience.html)
closetbiker
10-14-07, 01:45 AM
I too found London to have some of the most civilised traffic I've encountered anywhere, and my cycling experience there started in the rain immediately after a 26-hour flight! ... My full opinion on this can be found here. (http://life-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/07/london-experience.html)
a good bit Chris.
one of my primary advocacy stances is, I just want to treated like everybody else!
If I come up to a 4 way stop, just let me take my turn in order. If you have to wait behind me for a bit, it's just the same as if I have to wait for you for a bit.
Maybe that's not pro-active and simply reactive, but I think the basic act of co-operation and respect gets us further in the long run.
Chris L
10-14-07, 01:52 AM
I should add that I also rode in Glasgow and Edinburgh, and found them similarly civilised places -- even during the afternoon rush hour, and largely for the same reasons, in fact, Scotland was a lovely place to ride, but I'll stop there before I get this thread moved to the touring forum. :D
closetbiker
10-22-07, 02:30 PM
My wifes home care nurse, who just visited, is from Lancashire and she said, road rage is very much a part of her region, but in London, she agrees, it's very co-operative, polite, and civilized.