Southern California - Ac100

After much mind changing I decided against going up to Frazier Pk for the 4 counties and instead did the AC100 as a renegade. Good call on my part as I figured I would see plenty of friends and I did. First there was Keith warming up on Alta Canada before he took off like he can.Keith finished 2nd in a little over 5 hours, awesome. All through the day I saw people who I know from doing these ultra rides, lots of KOM jerseys. I saw Karen and Tony several times, Christy, and several people who I don't know by name. At the turn around stop at Jarvi Lookout my friend Clem was passing out food and drinks and we talked of all the doubles he and daughter Reene have done this year, wonderful. On the last climb up to Mt. Wilson I passed a familiar bike, the gal we met at Newcombs this summer training for this ride alone up there and sure enough she made it just fine. At the stop at Wilson there was Carbon Dude earning his free ride, it was good to see Jon again. I also had a nice chat with Debby Bowling the commander of Planet Ultra:) Even though I was not registered she made me feel welcome with a much appreciated sandwich. I think Debby is misunderstood at times, a really nice person. I'm looking forward to seeing her at the Xmas ride they sponsor. Oh yeah the ride. It was a hard 11,000 ft of climbing under clear ,sunny ,but frigid skys. Man it was cold up there with snow on the North side of every mountain past Newcombs. I was glad I had enough clothes but just barely. We are really lucky here in So Cal to have the chance to ride such difficult rides with other dedicated athletes. I'm sorry I couldn't make it to the 4 Counties but this ride was a great alternative.

Even though I was not registered she made me feel welcome with a much appreciated sandwich. I think Debby is misunderstood at times, a really nice person.

Oh, now I see why you didn't do the other ride. Duh. Glad you had a nice ride, Bob. :)
And, yes, Debbie is a very nice person. I'm looking forward to riding with her and getting to know her better.

After much mind changing I decided against going up to Frazier Pk for the 4 counties and instead did the AC100 as a renegade.

While I appreciate that you mention that I'm a nice person (and I surely wouldn't want to change anyone's opinion about that); I'm very bummed that you posted to everyone that you rode our event as a "renegade."

It sends a very poor message to the group.

It's super unfair for riders to come and ride an event without paying. It's disrespectful to the riders who DID pay, as well as to the event organizer (whether it be Planet Ultra, or any other organizer); and it's also a huge liability for event promoters. It is stealing.

I realize that some riders don't want to pay entry fees because they foolishly believe they're only buying the food (which sometimes they don't use because they train with certain foods, or because they don't like what's offered). Most riders are ignorant of the fact that the cost of food is one of the least expensive aspects of hosting an event. Consider the insurance, time, fuel, vehicle and equipment rentals, permits, and the like.

Special events are generally hosted by special permit; and often come with rider limits and specific insurance requirements. If bunches of riders came and rode as bandits, more riders than allowed would be on the course, which could put the future of the ride in jeopardy.

Furthermore, it's not that easy to plan food needs, even when you know how many riders will attend. If folks who didn’t register come and eat the food meant for those who did; those who paid for services could be left without something they want/need.

I also realize that some folks feel upset that Planet Ultra, and most other organized rides, are for profit. Most folks have NO CLUE that this is a full time job. Do YOU get PAID FOR YOUR JOB????? Of course you do! And we deserve to as well! Part of the entry fee allows us to live and eat and survive. And believe me, we're NOT getting rich! If we couldn't earn at least a decent living, these rides wouldn't exist.

Keith, Karen, Tony, Christy, and everyone else you saw riding today, are regular Planet Ultra riders who understand that registering for an event enables them to not only receive support at checkpoints and SAG along a well-though-out route, but, more importantly, to take part in the camaraderie and special atmosphere of a large gathering of cycling enthusiasts.

While I cannot speak for Jon, we feel very strongly that he volunteers at events because he genuinely loves cycling and wants to give back to his sport by helping others. The ride credit is merely a secondary benefit.

Our policy is that if we catch bandits, they're no longer welcome to participate in Planet Ultra events. I had no idea that you rode our entire course as if you were a registered rider; or I'd have said something at Mt. Wilson. I'd still have given you a sandwich... but I may have told you how demeaning it is, both personally and professionally, to have people disrespect what we do by behaving like it has no value.

Deborah Bowling

Very valid points, Deb. I've considered renegading before (but never have), but after reading your comments below, I will think twice in the future for sure. I think sometimes we as riders just don't think through the perspective of the organizers.

Your message was spot on Deborah but would have been more powerful without the confrontational tone. I am MORE than happy to pay an organizer (and see them profit) when the support is as solid as Planet Ultra provides.

I was on the ride yesterday and when I hit the snow line on the descent, 40+ miles in, my whole body seized up and I was borderline hypothermic. I could not go on. Brian came by in the van and offered me support and I'm not sure where I'd be today (maybe in the hospital) had he not been there. Brian, as I said yesterday, you are now my write-in candidate for President in '08.

Yesterday was my second Planet Ultra event. Although I ended up dehydrated and cross-eyed at the HB100, and turned myself into a human cryogenic experiment at the AC100, I am hooked, and the support that that Ultra provides is world class.

Thanks again for a great event and for the timely rescue, and I'll certainly be back many, many more times, with dollars in hand.

gene r

While I appreciate that you mention that I'm a nice person (and I surely wouldn't want to change anyone's opinion about that); I'm very bummed that you posted to everyone that you rode our event as a "renegade."

It sends a very poor message to the group.

It's super unfair for riders to come and ride an event without paying. It's disrespectful to the riders who DID pay, as well as to the event organizer (whether it be Planet Ultra, or any other organizer); and it's also a huge liability for event promoters. It is stealing.

I realize that some riders don't want to pay entry fees because they foolishly believe they're only buying the food (which sometimes they don't use because they train with certain foods, or because they don't like what's offered). Most riders are ignorant of the fact that the cost of food is one of the least expensive aspects of hosting an event. Consider the insurance, time, fuel, vehicle and equipment rentals, permits, and the like.

Special events are generally hosted by special permit; and often come with rider limits and specific insurance requirements. If bunches of riders came and rode as bandits, more riders than allowed would be on the course, which could put the future of the ride in jeopardy.

Furthermore, it's not that easy to plan food needs, even when you know how many riders will attend. If folks who didn’t register come and eat the food meant for those who did; those who paid for services could be left without something they want/need.

I also realize that some folks feel upset that Planet Ultra, and most other organized rides, are for profit. Most folks have NO CLUE that this is a full time job. Do YOU get PAID FOR YOUR JOB????? Of course you do! And we deserve to as well! Part of the entry fee allows us to live and eat and survive. And believe me, we're NOT getting rich! If we couldn't earn at least a decent living, these rides wouldn't exist.

Keith, Karen, Tony, Christy, and everyone else you saw riding today, are regular Planet Ultra riders who understand that registering for an event enables them to not only receive support at checkpoints and SAG along a well-though-out route, but, more importantly, to take part in the camaraderie and special atmosphere of a large gathering of cycling enthusiasts.

While I cannot speak for Jon, we feel very strongly that he volunteers at events because he genuinely loves cycling and wants to give back to his sport by helping others. The ride credit is merely a secondary benefit.

Our policy is that if we catch bandits, they're no longer welcome to participate in Planet Ultra events. I had no idea that you rode our entire course as if you were a registered rider; or I'd have said something at Mt. Wilson. I'd still have given you a sandwich... but I may have told you how demeaning it is, both personally and professionally, to have people disrespect what we do by behaving like it has no value.

Deborah BowlingI'm sorry for the inappropriate use of the word "renegade" in my post yesterday. It implies that there was premeditation and a willfull intent to avoid paying your fee. I did not represent myself to anyone as a registered rider, including you,nor did I take so much as a morsel of food or drink from any of the rest stops, except the sandwich that you gave me. The only stop that I even pulled in to was Jarvi to use the bathroom and there I saw my friend Clem whom I hadn't seen in a while. I didn't decide to ride on A.C. until yesterday morning and was of the assumption that the ride was sold out. I don't understand your statement about the permits required limiting the number of riders on the road. Does that mean that only riders registered with you are allowed on public roads when you are having an event? I ride 80-100 miles just about every Saturday on Angeles Crest, yesterday was just another ride for me except there were a few more cyclist out there. There are only two roads up there so it's pretty hard not to be on the same course.
I ment no disrespect to anyone who participated in yesterday's ride and really go out of my way to support riders who are trying to improve themselves by taking on challenging routes. In a way we are both trying to accomplish the same thing, to promote safe cycling for the enjoyment of all. They are, after all, public roads, open to use by anyone. Sorry if I have in any way fostered ill will, this is an attempt to make ammends for that. :)

If you don't accept food or other services from an organizer then you're not infringing on the their event.
Simply riding the same PUBLIC roads does not consititute poaching. I'm with you VB.

If you don't accept food or other services from an organizer then you're not infringing on the their event.
Simply riding the same PUBLIC roads does not consititute poaching. I'm with you VB.

Anyone who knows Bob knows he would never try to get support that he didn't pay for. He's an honorable guy, and you couldn't call him a "bandit". He rides those roads more than any of us, and the fact that he was up there following that route is of no consequence to anyone.
Many of us have ridden on the roads at the same time as an event, sometimes following the actual route, at least part of it. I don't see this as demeaning, insulting, or injurious to anyone. Now if we were to try and get free support, that's another thing.

Gentlemen, with all due respect, I'm not sure Deborah would have said a word had Bob not called himself a renegade in the very first sentence of his OP and mentioned the fact that although he wasn't registered, she gave him a sandwich. I actually can understand her reaction and didn't find her post confrontational or inappropriate since this is a public forum full of cyclists, many of whom have ridden and will continue to ride PU events. I doubt she wants the impression on Bike Forums to be that attending a ride as a bandit is acceptable. Yes, public roads are always open to all riders (and I've never known law officials to police non-charity ride events), but there are some riders out there who do ride the routes of organized events and who do take a little here and there from the water/food supplies and don't think a thing of it (I know them and have been on rides with them while they did as such). Also, if porta potties are used and toilet supplies provided, then enough "renegade" riders could, in fact, drain those supplies as well.

I honestly don't feel she was picking on anyone with her post and was, instead, trying to provide a very valid perspective to other riders who may read Bob's OP and assume that it really is okay to join on a ride without paying, and that they might even get a sandwich out of it!

Anyone who knows Bob knows he would never try to get support that he didn't pay for. He's an honorable guy, and you couldn't call him a "bandit". He rides those roads more than any of us, and the fact that he was up there following that route is of no consequence to anyone.
Many of us have ridden on the roads at the same time as an event, sometimes following the actual route, at least part of it. I don't see this as demeaning, insulting, or injurious to anyone. Now if we were to try and get free support, that's another thing.

+1 about Bob, John. :) I do know that Bob is very honorable and absolutely self-sufficient! He could ride the AC route anytime he wants and he takes care of himself. I really do NOT believe she was attacking Bob's character.

I believe it was the use of the word "renegade" and the fact that it was posted on a public website that got her attention and subsequent response.

For my first century I inadvertantly rode bandit on *two* groups' rides. I was living in boston and decided to go to the cape for the weekend. Not having a car, and on recommendation of people from work, I pedaled my mountain bike (the only one I had, with plastic cages and straps)-- I had no idea how far it was, but it turned out to be something like 140 miles from Somerville to Provincetown.

Around Brookline (for those of you who know the area) I caught some girls on road bikes who were looking at some maps/route slips. I asked where they were headed, and they said "P-town"-- then they said they were with an AYH group that was going, and their group was stopping about 20 miles short at a hostel for the night, and I should check with their ride leader at their lunch stop if there might be space. I rode with them for a while, then we split up (can't remember who dropped who) and I continued riding.

A while further I started to bonk badly (not realizing how much you need to eat, especially when you have a loaded mountain bike on rolling hills) and was trying to decide whether to call my housemate to pick me up, when I started rolling down a long hill and at the bottom saw a big white van, a six foot table with big water coolers on it, and some big boxes. I stopped at the bottom, asked if they were with AYH, and they made faces at me "Did they pick the same day as us *again*?" I said "Huh? Who are you?". They were with Chiltern Mountain (http://chiltern.org) (who I'd never heard of before but are a big Gay/Lesbian outdoor club in the northeast). I told them I was a) not with AYH b) a crazy fool who had decided on a whim to ride to the cape, and c) really hungry and could I have a banana and some water. They said to take whatever I needed, (a couple bananas and refills of water bottles. They also had muffins and gatorade), and to not worry about the map I had, but follow the green painted lambdas with arrows on the pavement, which were at every intersection where there was any ambiguity.

So I continued on with my blood sugar restored, stopped at the first store I saw (I even had a U-lock with me!) bought a bunch of snacks and gatorade and continued on. I eventually even started catching some of the Chiltern riders, and drafting them a little bit occasionally-- there was one group I kept leapfrogging until pretty close to the end. The support guys (I think they only had one crew) smiled and waved every time I saw them, though I didn't try to beg more food, and I stopped and got food pretty regularly.

I caught the AYH people again at their lunch stop, but after seeing their lunch, decided not to try to buy into the ride and rolled onward. (Note, however, that if you do the San Diego AYH Christmas trip, there are no lunches but the dinners and breakfasts are quite good. In part because I'm a dinner supervisor and like good food.) I think I rolled into P-town almost exactly 12 hours after I started, with a sore knee and some numb fingers on my right hand from leaning on a nerve while I was shifting. I found a campground and slept on a picnic table in my sleeping bag. Living in Somerville, which is pretty much fully paved, I had forgotten that there are bugs, and had to get up at around 10 pm and walk into town to buy mosquito repellent.

In the morning I found breakfast, pedaled over to the ferry stop, and got a ferry ticket (something like $14) back to boston. We saw a whale on the ferry ride, which caused the boat to list when everyone was on one side looking at it. Back in boston, I hooked up with some of the AYH riders who were headed back toward Cambridge and pedaled home with them (maybe 10 miles).

Thanks Chris, great story. I needed a good chuckle. :D

I wonder, just from a devil's advocate point of view ... what happens of someone rides on the road, and that road happens to be on the route of a particular organized ride. Let's say the guy, not on the organized ride, bonks, and is in serious need of the essentials, like water, banana, sandwich, whatever. Will the ride organization help?

Results are in
http://www.planetultra.com/angelescrest/Results/2007%20results.htm
I enjoyed myself immensely. I am sure glad I threw some full finger gloves in my pocket at the last minute. It was cold and windy in spots. Other than that, it was a great ride.

Results are in
http://www.planetultra.com/angelescrest/Results/2007%20results.htm
I had a great time. I am sure glad I threw some full finger gloves in my pocket at the last minute. It was cold and windy in spots. Other than that, it was a great ride.

You had a great time Jim, Congrats!
Nice seeing you up there Bob :)
This was a beautiful ride with AWESOME views! But it was COLD, COLD,COLD! It was quite tough for me...at mile 26 or so we had already had 5000 ft of climbing! Then at mile 49 (the turn around spot) we had over 7000 ft..
It was a hard day for me, but a great ride none the less! I could have used ONE more layer on top of the 4
I had on though...
I wished i had a camara to take pictures, especially of the snow...so I could say SEE, we DO get snow in So cal!
The clock stopped @ top top of Mt Wilson @ mile 80 with 10,800 or so feet of climbing..the descent back down to the cars was windy, I was getting blown all over the place!!
Great Job Planet Ultra, I LOVE these climbing rides!!! I have decided to definitely do KOM AGAIN next year! :D:D

You had a great time Jim, Congrats!
Nice seeing you up there Bob :)
This was a beautiful ride with AWESOME views! But it was COLD, COLD,COLD! It was quite tough for me...at mile 26 or so we had already had 5000 ft of climbing! Then at mile 49 (the turn around spot) we had over 7000 ft..
It was a hard day for me, but a great ride none the less! I could have used ONE more layer on top of the 4
I had on though...
I wished i had a camara to take pictures, especially of the snow...so I could say SEE, we DO get snow in So cal!
The clock stopped @ top top of Mt Wilson @ mile 80 with 10,800 or so feet of climbing..the descent back down to the cars was windy, I was getting blown all over the place!!
Great Job Planet Ultra, I LOVE these climbing rides!!! I have decided to definitely do KOM AGAIN next year! :D:D


Karen, I did see you on my return trip and waved, maybe you remember me, I was the one that was freezing.. :D

Anyone that does this ride is awesome. I was fortunate to have ridden a lot on ACH with VB, BigJohn, etc. in the last several months. The last time I did, I had trouble with my back on the Cloudburst Summit climb. I was a little tentative going through there Saturday but it all went well. No issues at all. Whew.

And, I am with you, I wish I had a camera too. Did you see Mt Baldy on the Mt Wilson climb? Spectacular.


Nice to see WhiteCarbonDude out there helping!! Always nice to see a friendly face.
[edit] When I said I had a great time, I meant I enjoyed myself. Those 5 hour boys had a great ride time!!!

[edit] When I said I had a great time, I meant I enjoyed myself.

You had a great time AND you had a great time, Jim!

Good job to all. I see my friend Bruce (Amgen Masters Team Member) took 1st place. Wow. I knew he was strong but I didn't think he could beat Keith Broadsky.

Good job to all. I see my friend Bruce (Amgen Masters Team Member) took 1st place. Wow. I knew he was strong but I didn't think he could beat Keith Broadsky.

Keith (in jest) complained about the 31-pound weight difference. ;)

Considering the cold and wind, there were a lot of great times up there.

Keith (in jest) complained about the 31-pound weight difference. ;)

Considering the cold and wind, there were a lot of great times up there.

Ya... Bruce is built a lot like you Vance and he can climb like a mountain goat. What I would give to shed 30 lbs....

You had a great time AND you had a great time, Jim!

Thanks Vance

Both Keith and Bruce are animals who ate up that hill. They both went past me in a blur.

Keith (in jest) complained about the 31-pound weight difference. ;)

Considering the cold and wind, there were a lot of great times up there.

Next time you chat with Keith, ask him why he lugged two water bottles yet only drank from one. That 1 1/2 pounds is worth 10 minutes!!

I only say this as he mentioned it on the top of Mt Wilson. He simply smoked that hill and was looking for was to improve. He is awesome.

I chatted with CaliGurl and SirLanceImNot a bit at the start. They both looked terrific but have not been riding lately. The first thing I thought of when I saw the snow (at Mt Waterman) was CaliGurl isn't going to like this very much.

I chatted with CaliGurl and SirLanceImNot a bit at the start. They both looked terrific but have not been riding lately. The first thing I thought of when I saw the snow (at Mt Waterman) was CaliGurl isn't going to like this very much.

I talked with them too, and wanted to start with them but we didn't end up starting till just before 7am.
They ended up turning back @ around mile 35 or so? Probably because of the cold, I am sure Cali was beyond freezing!!

I talked with them too, and wanted to start with them but we didn't end up starting till just before 7am.
They ended up turning back @ around mile 35 or so? Probably because of the cold, I am sure Cali was beyond freezing!!

Cali was cold at the ride start!!

I think it just wasn't their day. Didn't SirLance have a busted knee too?

Cali was cold at the ride start!!

I think it just wasn't their day. Didn't SirLance have a busted knee too?

Oh, I don't know, He didn't say anything to us...
Wow...the cold and the climbing not a good combo with a bad knee.
Are you doing Spook Jim?
I was concerned about it before, but after Saturday's ride, I can't wait for it :D

Oh, I don't know, He didn't say anything to us...
Wow...the cold and the climbing not a good combo with a bad knee.
Are you doing Spook Jim?
I was concerned about it before, but after Saturday's ride, I can't wait for it :D

Nope on Spook for me, I am doing ME's Chantry ride the next day.

How about Baldy for you this Saturday?

Ya... Bruce is built a lot like you Vance and he can climb like a mountain goat. What I would give to shed 30 lbs....

I realize this is an older thread, but I met Bruce last saturday and rode around the 23/Hullholland Hwy/PCH with him and some other Amgen guys. He was saying something about a century he had just done but I didn't connect the dots until just now.