Advocacy & Safety - guarding against the outside hook

well, a near collision on a ride today.

four lane one way arterial, downhill. I was keeping up with traffic, moving 35mph or so. I was fully in the outside lane. maybe even a little inside edge biased.

a car 20-30 feet ahead in the next lane over decides to cut a sharp turn across my path at speed onto a side street.

no signal, no deacelleration. I swerve and cut around the vehicle's arc, avoiding the bumper by a few inches.

Do any of you cycling A&S regulars have any ideas how to avoid a hook from an illegal turner, and how you go about conducting your everyday bicycling on multi laned roads? what do you do? How or where should I have been positioned to avoid the turn from a lane that had no business turning?

Keep in mind, I did avoid the turner.


Do you strict vehicularists suddenly deaccelerate ;) anytime a car passes you on a multilaned street and there's an intersection or driveway coming up ahead? how about multi-laned streets with parking on the side of the road?

how would a cyclist, fully in a lane of traffic along a busy urban street, get anywhere if they were forced by their technique to suddenly slow down every time a vehicle passes them? Do you avoid keeping up with traffic while in your own lane?

Noisebeam, Head, any input on how to avoid illegal turn manuvers when you are fully taking the outside lane on a road and cars are passing or catching up, or you are motor pacing?

Do you slow down for all passing traffic out of fears they will be parking or turning? If you're motorpacing, where do you position yourself relative to other traffic going the same direction?

This illegal maneuver has happened to me twice while driving a motor vehicle and once while cycling in the past few years. In all cases I slowed fairly hard and avoided collision. In all cases it appeared the driver pulling the stunt knew what they were doing and were intentionally being agressive. What this means is that they were cutting 90deg across my path with full awareness of me and their judgement in timing and relying on me to slow was fortunately correct. This does not mean it was good judgement on their part to pull the stunt in the first place.

Be vigillant.

The reverse of this maneuver is very common where I live. That is drivers making a right turn out of a side street into a multilane arterial will see a gap in the inside lane, but not a sufficient gap in the outside lane and then choose to quickly cut across the outside lane and turn into the inside lane as the vehicle traveling thru in the outside lane just barely clears them. This can lead to accidents due to driver in outside lane seeing the vehicle start to pull out and then swerve into the inside lane to avoid them.

Al

no signal, no deacelleration. I swerve and cut around the vehicle's arc, avoiding the bumper by a few inches.


I think you handled it well according to your experience, I'd have done the same (if I were able.)

We are subject to the same dangers of people doing stupid things. Glad you handled it well and are ok.

:beer:

Close call. 35 mph would be too fast for me (I'm using a Cannondale T-800 for my commute). Too fast to slow down in time for drivers like that. Can't compete with them. I usually stay far to the right in heavy and fast traffic, and I always got one eye on the helmet mirror and the other looking ahead. When I get close to an intersection to stop and its safe that's when I get in the center of the lane and command the road. They have to slow down and they can't right hook you there. Be careful, they're are capable of anything.
Glad you ok.

steve

Not certain what you mean by outside hook. Which lane were you in on this one way arterial? The far right or far left lane. Which way did the car turn to cross your path.

Just trying to get a clear picture of what happened.

I agree that, at 35 mph, there is little you can do to avoid a car that pulls suddenly across your path (and sudden for you probably doesn't seem so to the car). Most drivers have no clue that a cycle cannot stop as aggressively as they, because we don't have those huge rubber contact patches with the road. What we have are two very narrow patches, and when we lose grip, there is almost no recovery for us.

At least a car can counter steer to regain control.

Glad you weren't hurt.

Caruso

lets see.... while all traffic including myself was moving close to 35 MPH, a car in the next lane over pulled an illegal turn and cut across my path as i was fully controlling the outside lane on a four lane, one way arterial.

It was the left side and to the left, so I didn't want to call it a 'right hook' even though the motion of violating my road space was the classic 'hook' manuver.

Maybe I should have called it something different. but shortening "outside lane hook" to "outside hook" made sense to me.

niterider, what happened to me today shows that, even if you ARE fully 'controlling' the outside lane in the most vehicular bicycling manner , a car CAN hook you. from the other lane. illegally.

I'm very glad to hear you made it out of that situation ok, Bek. Were you in Seattle proper or east King County?

Thanks, Donna :). it WAS slightly dicey, I envisioned myself going over the trunk for a second before I dodged the bumper.

It was in Seattle proper, near the Seattle Center, riding on Mercer street. I always put the hammer down on this stretch.

I'm curious how the rest of the 'take the lane' crewe guards against this type of driving. Seems to me that, along any stretch of multi-laned road, even taking the lane is insufficient guard against illlegal, boneheaded manuvers like I encountered today. does the 'take the lane' crowd slow down every time a car passes them and there's parking on streetside, or every driveway? and how about when motorpacing?

I think one point I'm trying to get across is this:
Despite how far in the lane you ride, a car may still violate your right of way.

Lane position is not a panacea.

Based on what I have experienced of Mercer Street, I'm not sure what you could do differently. No one seems to decide where they need to be until the very last second.

I guess your underlying point is that there are no panaceas, and I agree with that. You can only be aware of the situation all around you, probably with special attention to your "blind" sides, where a lot of danger comes from.

You're a great rider and that (and a little luck) were what saved you. The rest of us, who may have less skill or slower RTs, should be careful not to outride the skills we do have.

I have a stretch of street in Boston that matches your description.

It's Charles Street where it runs between the Common and the Public Gardens. It's lined on the left with parked cars and there's an entrance to a popular underground parking garage on the right. Because I have to take a left at the end of it I cross the lanes and take the middle of the far left lane. The road is flat and if I get right in with the traffic there's enough of a slipstream to match their speed but still I fight with cars that I know can see me there but seem almost dumbfounded or just downright PO'd that I'm mixing in with the traffic. I have to be ready the whole 1/4 mile or so to be hooked. This disrespect continues as I make the left on Beacon Street where I am simply ignored as I signal and try to cross over to the right lane, still moving at the speed of traffic.

I think the problem of riding "vehicularly" in those instances is that many of the drivers are of the mentality that if you're going to ride in with the traffic they'll give you no more respect than they do any other car- which is none.:(

It would be nice if they would give a cyclist a "brake". Cyclists are, after all, traveling under their own power and not surrounded by thousands of pounds of steel, glass and plastic. So we are bit more vulnerable when mixing in with traffic at those speeds.

Sounds like you handled it very well- stay safe.:)

Lane position is not a panacea.
Of course lane position is not a panacea. Nobody has every claimed or implied otherwise, so far as I know.

I'm a little fuzzy on where this car came from. As I understand it, you were in the right lane, it was in the lane adjacent to yours, but 20-30 feet ahead of you, when the driver suddenly swerved right across your path (if so, that makes it a right hook). But if you roll back the clock 5, 10, 20, 30 seconds, where was this car? Where did it come from? Was it ahead and you were catching up? Was it behind, passed you, and then turned right? Or was it about 20-30 feet ahead for the last 30+ seconds?

Regardless, 20-30' means 1.5-2 car lengths in front of you. That's pretty close, especially at 35 mph. Even with your relatively good natural instincts, you were obviously pushing the limits. I would have backed off a tad.

Whether I'm driving a car or riding my bike, I don't like to be next to other vehicles. If you're moving the same speed as someone next to you, or almost next to you, just ahead, as was in this case, even if you shave only 2 mph off your speed, the gap to them (assuming they maintain the same speed) will grow at 3' per second. If 10 seconds earlier you had tapped your brakes and shaved 2 mph, the car would have been an additional 30 feet in front of you by the time he turned into the side alley.

We all know and understand the risks in tailgating, which means following someone directly in front of you too closely. But I think being that close, even in adjacent space, carries unnecessary risk as well, especially when there are places they can and might turn right. I would back off a tad for a few seconds, maybe 5-10 seconds, enough to establish a more healthy buffer.

[....]
Whether I'm driving a car or riding my bike, I don't like to be next to other vehicles. If you're moving the same speed as someone next to you, or almost next to you, just ahead, as was in this case, even if you shave only 2 mph off your speed, the gap to them (assuming they maintain the same speed) will grow at 3' per second. If 10 seconds earlier you had tapped your brakes and shaved 2 mph, the car would have been an additional 30 feet in front of you by the time he turned into the side alley.

We all know and understand the risks in tailgating, which means following someone directly in front of you too closely. But I think being that close, even in adjacent space, carries unnecessary risk as well, especially when there are places they can and might turn right. I would back off a tad for a few seconds, maybe 5-10 seconds, enough to establish a more healthy buffer.

From a driver's perspective, the right side of the car is one of the worst blind spots. Many freeway accidents are caused by drivers swerving into a car on their right side. Their mirrors don't cover this location, and many drivers fail to do the required headcheck. In some ways this is analogous to Bek's near miss. This is a lesson from defensive driving that works for cycling too.

"backing off a tad"...interesting, helmet head.

how do you get anywhere on a bike if you 'back off' every time a vehicle passes you? And how do you establish a 'healthy buffer' in steady traffic?

'Backing off'- Is that how it's done in San Diego?

Buzzman has a more realistic depiction....

and if I get right in with the traffic there's enough of a slipstream to match their speed but still I fight with cars that I know can see me there but seem almost dumbfounded or just downright PO'd that I'm mixing in with the traffic. I have to be ready the whole 1/4 mile or so to be hooked.....

I think the problem of riding "vehicularly" in those instances is that many of the drivers are of the mentality that if you're going to ride in with the traffic they'll give you no more respect than they do any other car- which is none.

Greetings Bekologist - sounds like yet another thing to watch out for... car in left outside lanes is going slower than you - is it time for "wide" right hook?

In regards to pedaling along in the lane and having an impatient driver zip to the left and then zip to the right cutting accross your path with yards - feet or inches to spare - to make that right hand turn seconds sooner than if they had just waited behind you - it is a challenge.

My favorite is pedalling down a long sloping hill (in a bike lane going 25-30) and having a car race up - merge right into the bike lane - brake & put on their right hand turn signal....

Its impossible for one technique to work consistantly because there is
no consisitancy to traffic other than it is going to happen.
I have found above and beyond the obvious 'heightened awareness'
stuff, pacing a car at the left or right FRONT of its bumper or parallel
with the end of its rear bumper is the best for me. If the car sees you
are in front of it he, a: wont turn into you for fear he will scratch is car, or
b: you will hear is motor accelerating to get around you and can prepare
accordingly. If this is not possible, leaving a blind spot buffer/riding parallel
or behind the rear bumper in anticipation of the hook, whick is SOP for me,
gives a little space for you but not enuff for a rational driver to jump in on.
I consider any point of the car from the drivers door to the rear fender to
be a blind spot and riding in that zone while pacing one might expect to
be cut-off more readily than riding in front or behind.

lets see.... while all traffic including myself was moving close to 35 MPH, a car in the next lane over pulled an illegal turn and cut across my path as i was fully controlling the outside lane on a four lane, one way arterial.

It was the left side and to the left, so I didn't want to call it a 'right hook' even though the motion of violating my road space was the classic 'hook' manuver.

Maybe I should have called it something different. but shortening "outside lane hook" to "outside hook" made sense to me.

niterider, what happened to me today shows that, even if you ARE fully 'controlling' the outside lane in the most vehicular bicycling manner , a car CAN hook you. from the other lane. illegally.

It looks to me as if posters here (including me) are still not quite clear on the relative positions - bike vs car. Posters after me are writing as though they believe you were in the right lane. If I understand you, you were to the left of the far left lane, and the car cut to its left to pull across your path. Is that correct?

Personally, I wouldn't be moving along at 35 mph taking the left lane in traffic (if that is what you were doing). The left lane, generally, is reserved for faster moving vehicles. You may have been running at the speed of traffic during your descent, but you would surely have lost speed to be among the slower vehicles on that stretch when descent had been completed.

I am not making excuses for illegals turns, but I'm guessing that you were not very visible to this car - even if it had passed you. Again, that's no excuse for cutting across lanes without checking carefully, but, riding in a position where drivers are least likely to notice, remember your position on the road is taking an unnecessary risk, in my view. I wouldn't do it.

Caruso

riding on the left of a one way road is legal; there is no 'fast lane' designation on city streets. I was IN a lane, not to the left of one. on this entire stretch, a bicyclist can easily keep up with traffic and be in the mix, motorpacing.

not visible after a car just passed me? please. I was also wearing bright yellow.

what are you guys suggesting, dumping speed every time a car passes you? :rolleyes:

what are you guys suggesting, dumping speed every time a car passes you? :rolleyes:

No I think they are suggesting to use your BRAIN.

I would be willing to bet even your arch nemesis doesn't bleed speed EVERY time a car passes. It depends on the conditions at the moment.

I have been know to bleed a little speed in the name of safety. It hasn't even affected my ride :eek: as dropping a couple MPH for 15 sec doesn't really affect my overall average speed.

I have even been known to use this while DRIVING. It's called defensive driving and it works. The only main difference is that in a car I have the option of going a little slower OR faster, while at 35mph on my bicycle I may not have much of an option to go any faster.

Gee Bek, are you really dense or do you just pretend to be when it is convenient to try and discredit those you don't agree with?

-D

riding on the left of a one way road is legal; there is no 'fast lane' designation on city streets. I was IN a lane, not to the left of one. on this entire stretch, a bicyclist can easily keep up with traffic and be in the mix, motorpacing.

not visible after a car just passed me? please. I was also wearing bright yellow.

what are you guys suggesting, dumping speed every time a car passes you? :rolleyes:

You're assuming that he was deliberately aiming for you, which is possible but not likely. Since we can't read minds, we rely on other senses when we're riding in traffic. Actually, the driver's intentions are totally irrelevant until you're pressing charges against him.

The color of your outfit doesn't matter if you were in that zone (about 4 o'clock to 5 o'clock relative to the driver) where the car's mirror system doesn't have coverage. I don't suggest slowing down for every driver that passes. I suggest spending as little time as possible in his blind spot, and being very aware of a driver's intentions while you are in the blind spot. Look for signals that he will sideswipe you: Turn signal (not bloody likely!), slowing or speeding, giving a quick look over his shoulder, etc. If I see any indication that he will suddenly swerve into my path, I'll slow, and/or move further left in the lane.

Beck, you have been asked for clarification on the situation at least twice. Make this three.

a) When you say you were in the outside lane of a 4 lane one-way arterial, do you mean leftmost lane or rightmost lane?
b) Numbering the lanes left to right, 1, 2, ..., which lane were you in?
c) Numbering the lanes left to right, 1, 2, ..., which lane was the guy in who cut you off, before he turned?
d) Did he turn left or right?
e) How wide was the lane that you were in?
f) You and the car that cut you off were moving about the same speed, 35 mph, correct?
g) Was there any other traffic? If so, where was it, and how fast were they moving?
h) You say you were on Mercer Street. What was the next cross street ahead of you? Better yet, google map link?

umm, you are obviously not reading the thread.


quoting myself...."while all traffic including myself was moving close to 35 MPH, a car in the next lane over pulled an illegal turn and cut across my path as i was fully controlling the outside lane on a four lane, one way arterial.

It was the left side and to the left..."

you can try to microdissect this scenario, head, but for those of us that ride regularily, it's a common scenario:

a bicyclist, on a multi laned road, is keeping up with traffic and fully claiming the outside lane.

what happened in front of me was an illegal turn from an inside lane of traffic.

Now, head you state you 'back off a little bit' when traffic passes you. I'm confused. how does this work in heavy or steady traffic? do you continually slow down, or just plug along in the outside lane, doing seven miles an hour?

are you recommending to never travel the same speed as other traffic on the road? But I think being that close, even in adjacent space, carries unnecessary risk as well, especially when there are places they can and might turn right. I would back off a tad for a few seconds, maybe 5-10 seconds, enough to establish a more healthy buffer. how does this work with steady traffic on a busy road? parking on the roadside? It reads like you never go the same speed of traffic, and back off when passed.

I'm not asking for 'advice'

I'm asking what the rest of you do when in traffic at speed taking the lane to prevent an illegal hook of you in the outside lane. I don't like to be alongside traffic at an intersection, but what if there's parking on the side of the road, as helemt head and al are proud to display when there's a bike lane? if there's a chance a car could cut you off and park or turn at any time on a multi laned road, how do you ride?

obviously some of the posters feel they shouldn't ever go the same speed as other traffic.

Bikes hammer down this stretch all the time. You did the right thing. Just keep watching those wheels esp. at the turn off that you mentioned.


It was in Seattle proper, near the Seattle Center, riding on Mercer street. I always put the hammer down on this stretch.... Despite how far in the lane you ride, a car may still violate your right of way.

I'm asking what the rest of you do when in traffic at speed taking the lane to prevent an illegal hook of you in the outside lane. I don't like to be alongside traffic at an intersection, but what if there's parking on the side of the road, as helemt head and al are proud to display when there's a bike lane? if there's a chance a car could cut you off and park or turn at any time on a multi laned road, how do you ride?

obviously some of the posters feel they shouldn't ever go the same speed as other traffic.

I don't understand where you're getting your conclusion that some people don't think it's safe to ride at the same speed as traffic. I personally don't mind riding at the same pace as the other traffic. But I don't like to ride (or drive) for very long directly to the side of a car, or to the side of one and a few feet behind, in the driver's blind spot. If this happens I will either speed up or slow down to place myself in a more comfortable position relative to that car. That doesn't mean I'm sacrificing speed, just making a minor adjustment in my position vis a vis the one car.

I don't expect a car to suddenly veer in front of me from lane no. 2 in order to make a right turn. This is what happened to you, if I'm reading it correctly. You were basically blindsided by an idiot making an illegal right turn. It doesn't seem like you could have foreseen this any sooner than you did, and your only chance was to ride it out and hope for the best.

Roody has already explained. If you still don't understand how this works with heavy traffic and think I never ride or drive (because I do the exact same thing when driving a car) the same speed as other traffic, let me know and I'll try to explain.

In short, if I'm going 35 and the car next to me is going 35 I'll back off a tad, to say 33, until, a few seconds later, the car that was next to me is now a reasonable distance ahead, then I'll kick it back up to 35. If there is another car there then I might stay at 33 until it passes. if it's a long line of tailgaters, I'll sometimes signal and negotiate a lane change into the line of tailgaters to break things up a bit (leaving a safe gap between myself and the car in front of me, and issuing the slow/stop arm signal if necessary to cause the car behind me to back off).

This is standard defensive driving stuff taught in motorcycle safety classes as well.

The other thing is that my tolerance for closer distances is, ironically, higher in busy traffic than in light traffic. When it's me and just one car, I definitely want to back off, because that driver is likely to be relatively relaxed and not paying much attention thinking he's basically on an empty street. But if there are cars all around, everybody is on heightened awareness, and I think overall things are less dangerous.

That's why I asked you earlier about the other traffic. You never answered.

traffic was steady.

No, helemt head, i understand how bicycling works in heavy traffic, I do it quite often. you, i'm not so sure of.

of course, if you confuse your driving with your bicycling (again!) I can see where you think you have a lot more bicycling in traffic experience...

how does that 'technique' of slowing down work in steady traffic, with traffic close behind you? you slow everybody down because of traffic in the next lane over? man, talk about contrived.

I find your textbook analysis of bicycling (and equating it with your driving) doesn't measure up. that second paragraph, about 'tailgaters' and 'moving into the line of tailgaters' is particularily muddled and confused.

The bicyclist is already in traffic, fully taking a lane, there's cars behind, (you suggest slowing because of cars in the next lane over,) how do you move into a lane of traffic you're already in?confusing!

anyway, thanks for describing how you drive your car, helemt head. I guess. I seriously doubt that 'technique' of moving into a line of tailgaters is taught in motorcycle safety classes because it doesn't make any sense.

well, a near collision on a ride today.

four lane one way arterial, downhill. I was keeping up with traffic, moving 35mph or so. I was fully in the outside lane. maybe even a little inside edge biased.

a car 20-30 feet ahead in the next lane over decides to cut a sharp turn across my path at speed onto a side street.

no signal, no deacelleration. I swerve and cut around the vehicle's arc, avoiding the bumper by a few inches.

Do any of you cycling A&S regulars have any ideas how to avoid a hook from an illegal turner, and how you go about conducting your everyday bicycling on multi laned roads? what do you do? How or where should I have been positioned to avoid the turn from a lane that had no business turning?

Keep in mind, I did avoid the turner.


Do you strict vehicularists suddenly deaccelerate ;) anytime a car passes you on a multilaned street and there's an intersection or driveway coming up ahead? how about multi-laned streets with parking on the side of the road?

how would a cyclist, fully in a lane of traffic along a busy urban street, get anywhere if they were forced by their technique to suddenly slow down every time a vehicle passes them? Do you avoid keeping up with traffic while in your own lane?

Noisebeam, Head, any input on how to avoid illegal turn manuvers when you are fully taking the outside lane on a road and cars are passing or catching up, or you are motor pacing?

Do you slow down for all passing traffic out of fears they will be parking or turning? If you're motorpacing, where do you position yourself relative to other traffic going the same direction?

Many cyclist on the road have had similar experiences. It helps to know the road, be extra vigillant and signal your intent well in advance, even if you intent is to remain in your lane. I have a scenario where there is highway access from a local road. Usually as I approach the turn-off point, where I intend to remain straight some "butthead" tries to speed in front of me to make that right turn rather than wait the half-second or so that it takes for me to clear the intersection. On more than one occasion I have had a motorist jam his brakes, anoyed at me for being in his way. I usually give the driver a look and point at my head as if to say "use your brain moron".

As I approach that point in the road, I usually look back to see who is approching, then I drop my left hand, palm back signally slow down, followed by a sweep of the hand marking my line of travel, signalling I am riding this lane, give me half a second.

Somtime you just gotta be proactive and a bit more agessive.

I kind of like looking in at the drivers while going the speed of traffic.

If they're cute, I try to get a big smile out of them.

yeah, geo les, I do some hand waving as well.

one things' for sure, there's a lot of impatient drivers out there. it seems some take offense at bicyclists just being in the road, keeping up.

last week, downtown, i had some aggressive driver yelling out the window because I was FASTER than the traffic...he felt I shouldn't be going faster than the motorists....

In that scenario, I would have made the same turn as the car that cut me off, and try to follow it to give the driver a piece of my mind.

Over the years, I've "educated" a number of drivers of the dangers of the Right Hook (I can be pretty assertive when some bozo has just nearly hit me).

traffic was steady.
You still have not confirmed whether you were in the leftmost lane. You still have not provided the nearest cross street in front of you. You still have not confirmed the guy who turned in frnont of you was in the #2 lane when he suddenly turned left. Now you introduce the vague description "steady"? Steady in what way? Speed, volume? how steady? A car every block or so? A car every 2 car lengths? Was traffic "steady" in your lane, the adjacent lane, every lane? And, most importantly, you still have not answered where this guy came from - whether he passed you and then slowed to your speed, whether you caught up with him, or what. We can't read your mind, Beck. We weren't there, you were. If you want us to tell us what we would do, you need to tell us what the situation was like.


No, helemt head, i understand how bicycling works in heavy traffic, I do it quite often. you, i'm not so sure of.

You asked how we, and me in particular, deal with situations like this. I'm answering. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem.


of course, if you confuse your driving with your bicycling (again!) I can see where you think you have a lot more bicycling in traffic experience...

Again, if you don't realize that the same techniques often can work in traffic regardless of the type of vehicle being operated, that too is your problem.


how does that 'technique' of slowing down work in steady traffic, with traffic close behind you? you slow everybody down because of traffic in the next lane over? man, talk about contrived.

Oh, yeah, it's real contrived for a driver to slow down 2 mph to back off from the car in front of him, or the car next to him in the adjacent lane, so he's not too close, thus causing the stream of traffic following behind him to slowdown 2 mph as well. Causing others to slow down is a normal part of operating in traffic Beck, whether it is "steady" or not, especially if you're on a bicycle.


I find your textbook analysis of bicycling (and equating it with your driving) doesn't measure up. that second paragraph, about 'tailgaters' and 'moving into the line of tailgaters' is particularily muddled and confused.

Why do you call my analysis "textbook", Beck? Because it is described in writing? How do you expect anyone to answer your question on this forum if not in writing?


The bicyclist is already in traffic, fully taking a lane, there's cars behind, (you suggest slowing because of cars in the next lane over,) how do you move into a lane of traffic you're already in?confusing!

You move into a different lane of traffic, Beck. A different lane. The lane with the stream of tailgaters that you want to break up, for example. But the conditions are rarely appropriate for this when on a bike, especially when you're in the leftmost lane of a 4 lane one-way. But I was talking in general.

read the thread, head. :rolleyes: if you can't figure out my road position. you're just being obtuse. left lane, one way street, taking the lane, a vehicle in the next lane over cut across without signalling or slowing.

see that? it is in the first post...a vehicle in the next lane over hooked me.

I'm asking what A&S riders do to prevent against the hook while fully taking a lane and riding the speed of traffic. head, you seem to portray bikes shouldn't go the same speed as the rest of the traffic.

however, your tailgaiting scenario persists in its' muddled confusion.

what? you're compelled to break up tailgaters in other lanes of traffic??? :roflmao:

anyway, thanks for the laugh.

read the thread, head. :rolleyes: if you can't figure out my road position. you're just being obtuse. left lane, one way street, taking the lane, a vehicle in the next lane over cut across without signalling or slowing.

see that? it is in the first post...a vehicle in the next lane over hooked me.

I'm asking what A&S riders do to prevent against the hook while fully taking a lane and riding the speed of traffic. head, you seem to portray bikes shouldn't go the same speed as the rest of the traffic.

however, your tailgaiting scenario persists in its' muddled confusion.

what? you're compelled to break up tailgaters in other lanes of traffic??? :roflmao:

anyway, thanks for the laugh.

Had that vehicle passed you? Or, did you catch up to it prior to it's turn?

It's possible the driver was intoxicated, or from out of the area and confused/lost.

Regardless, the DAM was the one who screwed up...any cop witnessing something like that would likely have pulled the guy over.

I don't think that taking the lane is any kind of panacea for boneheaded moves by drivers. Or even non-boneheaded moves for that matter.

What works best, no matter how you ride (lane grabbers or bike laners) is to know your roads (if you can) and anticipate potential problems at all times (whether you know the roads or not).

Many of you seem to have a problem with differentiating between a technique that greatly reduces the incidence of something one may wish to avoid, with something that is a panacea that totally eliminates that which we wish to avoid. No one has ever claimed lane positioning or any other technique is a panacea. Just because there are still situations in which appropriate/conspicuous lane positioning does not prevented boneheaded moves by motorists does not mean appropriate/conspicuous lane positioning does not greatly reduce the incidence of such experiences.

Had that vehicle passed you? Or, did you catch up to it prior to it's turn?

Good luck with getting Beck to cough up an answer to this, or any other specific question about what happened. He's so vague on the details I'm beginning to wonder whether it happened at all.

The problem, HH, is that you do indeed represent your particular lane-grabbing techniques as a panacea. You do this by saying things like you never have drivers behave badly toward you since doing your center lane business. You do this by framing an argument that all bike accidents where cyclists are hurt riding where cyclists normally ride is evidence that your technique is the magic solution. (I suppose I could start saying that all drivers should drive on the sidewalk since too many of them are being killed in the road. It would be the same silly thing.) You offer your own limited experience as some kind of proof that if everybody does as you do, no harm will every come to you, drivers will suddenly smile and wave at all times, the sun will come out, the birds will sing and there will be rainbows everywhere.

The problem, HH, is that you do indeed represent your particular lane-grabbing techniques as a panacea. You do this by saying things like you never have drivers behave badly toward you since doing your center lane business. You do this by framing an argument that all bike accidents where cyclists are hurt riding where cyclists normally ride is evidence that your technique is the magic solution. (I suppose I could start saying that all drivers should drive on the sidewalk since too many of them are being killed in the road. It would be the same silly thing.) You offer your own limited experience as some kind of proof that if everybody does as you do, no harm will ever come to you, drivers will suddenly smile and wave at all times, the sun will come out, the birds will sing and there will be rainbows everywhere.
Ugh. You're doing it again! I've never said anything like I NEVER have drivers behave badly towards me. I never said no harm will EVER come to me. I never said drivers will be friendly at ALL times. Why exaggerate like this?

Anyway, compared to the way most cyclists seem to ride, perhaps it is fair to call it a panacea. I mean, if something can change the frequency of negative interactions from at least few a week to at most a few a year, is that a panacea? It's certainly hard to talk about it without making it sound like a panacea. But it should not be misconstrued to mean it eliminates the negative interactions.

Keep in mind, I did avoid the turner.

Then you did exactly the right thing.

It's impossible to guard against everything. The best you can do is Be Ready.

I will add though, that it's a good thing that you weren't gazing in your mirror to see if you had to move over to let someone pass, or you might not have seen the bonehead in time. ;)

For the record, I have been right-hooked on a few occasions under a similar scenario, i.e., I was cycling in textbook vehicular fashion and some jerk made a completely illegal right turn from the through-only lane to my left. I have even been right-hooked by someone crossing the centerline of a 2-lane 2-way road!

HH realizes there are no guarantees in life, and merely recommends strategies, including creating and staying in a "bubble" in the traffic stream, which help skew the odds toward a cyclist's safety. Where he and I differ is that I vociferously advocate stricter accountability for errant motorists and traffic calming of high-speed free diverges and merges. HIs strategy for avoiding right hooks is the same as mine -- position thyself to eliminate the chance of being right-hooked from the proper lane and watch for aggressive or inattentive bozos turning right illegally from a through lane.

and I do the same, john. position and attentivenensss in traffic.

what happened to me the other day was worth starting a thread about.

I thought it illustrated the situation that a bicyclist fully claiming the lane can still be hooked.

Simply claiming the lane does not stop drivers from acting illegally and violating bicyclists right of way.

and i'm in agreement with allister on this....it's a good thing that you weren't gazing in your mirror to see if you had to move over to let someone pass, or you might not have seen the bonehead in time. :roflmao:

envisioning helemt head never doing the same speed as other traffic, slowing down to never pass a motorist on multi laned roads, and equating ones' motoring with ones' bicycling is humorous.

envisioning helemt head never doing the same speed as other traffic, slowing down to never pass a motorist on multi laned roads, and equating ones' motoring with ones' bicycling is humorous.

It's annoying that he explained himself several times and you still misquote and misrepresent him. You don't have to agree with HH, and you probably never will. But it's dishonest when you continually and deliberately "misunderstand" what he's said. And it gets pretty boring to the reader, too. You take this whole Internet thing too personal, dude. You should probably keep an eye on your blood pressure. Try to make it more about issues and less about personalities.

actually roody, if you read head's last post on page one, about tailgaters, its' apparant he's not got a clue. his advice about 'tailgaters' is particularly nonsensical.

helmet equating his driving with his bicycling is what's genuinely dishonest, roody. not my purported 'misunderstanding', his 'tailgating' 'advice' is quite daft.

So today on the bicycle to work i envisioned helemt head never doing the same speed as the rest of traffic, slowing down every time a car passes him, and never passing cars while motorpacing....so what? that's how his comments make me envision his "techniques"

regardless, I illustrated this real life situation in the forum to show that taking the lane is no guarantee against hooks, and taking the lane does not prevent illegal moves by motorists.

...picture yourself, riding along, motorpacing in steady city traffic, taking the lane on a multi laned road, riding all vehicular and assertive.
suddenly, without any warning, the vehicle in the next lane over cuts across your lane at full speed without slowing down or signalling to make a turn.....

You should probably keep an eye on your blood pressure. Try to make it more about issues and less about personalities.
He can't read, Roody. He just doesn't get it.


actually roody, if you read head's last post on page one, about tailgaters, its' apparant he's not got a clue. his advice about 'tailgaters' is particularly nonsensical.

helmet equating his driving with his bicycling is what's genuinely dishonest, roody. not my purported 'misunderstanding', his 'tailgating' 'advice' is quite daft.

So today on the bicycle to work i envisioned helemt head never doing the same speed as the rest of traffic, slowing down every time [:rolleyes:] a car passes him, and never [:rolleyes:] passing cars while motorpacing....so what? that's how his comments make me envision his "techniques"

regardless, I illustrated this real life situation in the forum to show that taking the lane is no guarantee against hooks, and taking the lane does not prevent illegal moves by motorists. [as if there is any disagreement with this super obvious point, :rolleyes: ]

It's all about ME!!! :love: :love: :love:

actually roody, if you read head's last post on page one, about tailgaters, its' apparant he's not got a clue. his advice about 'tailgaters' is particularly nonsensical.

helmet equating his driving with his bicycling is what's genuinely dishonest, roody. not my purported 'misunderstanding', his 'tailgating' 'advice' is quite daft.

So today on the bicycle to work i envisioned helemt head never doing the same speed as the rest of traffic, slowing down every time a car passes him, and never passing cars while motorpacing....so what? that's how his comments make me envision his "techniques"

regardless, I illustrated this real life situation in the forum to show that taking the lane is no guarantee against hooks, and taking the lane does not prevent illegal moves by motorists.

I understand your point in starting the thread and I think it's a good one.

But HH said several times, and I think I said it twice, that we're not talking about never going the same speed as cars. We're talking about not staying for very long in a cars lateral blind spot. Let's say you're in the left section of the (right) outer lane, and a car in the next lane is right next to you, or just a little ahead of you. You are at that point in the driver's blind spot. You and your bike will not show up in the driver's mirrors. Unless the driver turns around in his seat and looks directly at you, he can't see a bike that's in that position; he can't even see a car that's in that position. Some drivers do NOT turn and look (head check) before they merge into your lane, and right into your path.

If you're riding the same speed as the car, you could be in that blind spot for many seconds, minutes, whatever. This is very similar to what happened to you, IMO. This position in the driver's blind spot is not a good place to be riding your bike. You should get out of this blind spot rather than stay there for a long time. ONE way to get out is to slow down slightly so the car pulls ahead of you. ANOTHER way is to speed up slightly so that you pull ahead of the car. Either way might work. You're the cyclist, you decide.

This does NOT mean that you have to slow down for every car that's in the left lane. It just means that it isn't a good idea ride dead even with a car for a long time because you're in a blind spot there. Speed up, slow down, whatever. But don't just sit there where the driver can't see you.

Moving on....As you say, driving a car and riding a bike are not the same thing. But many of the same principles apply to both. Like the law of physics that two bodies can't occupy the same space at the same time. And the laws of optics that determine what can be seen in a car's rearview mirror.

This issue is so fundamental to both defensive driving and defensive cycling that I can't figure out why it's hard to understand or how it can be argued with. You know that just because HH says something, doesn't automatically mean it's wrong! ;)

roody, you too seem to think a bicyclist shouldn't be moving the same speed as other traffic.

I don't know how else to take your technique.

I wasn't in the motorists' blind spot, i was far enough behind him to not get hooked, i wasn't going exactly the same speed as the motorist for a long stretch of time, i was fully engaged in the steady roll and mix of traffic, moving 30-35 mph while fully taking a lane of traffic.

if you've ridden much in fast, steady metropolitian traffic, you'd know about the traffic dance. cars and you are moving, changing lanes, swinging and dodging.

I was tooling along, taking the lane, and a car in the next lane over decided to make an illegal turn across the lane I was in.

Pretty simple, a gross violation of the standard rules of the road.

when you and that other fella talk about slowing down, not letting a car be alongside you, is a gross oversimplification of the chaotic nature of crowded roadways.

Being visible isn't just about wearing brightly colored jerseys and using lights at night. It's also about positioning yourself where drivers can see you, not being in their blind spot any longer than you have to.

yep. that's why i was riding where & how i was riding.

roody, you too seem to think a bicyclist shouldn't be moving the same speed as other traffic. OMFG if you say that one more time I'm going to ride my freekin bike off a freeking overpass!

I don't know how else to take your technique.

I wasn't in the motorists' blind spot, i was far enough behind him to not get hooked, i wasn't going exactly the same speed as the motorist for a long stretch of time, i was fully engaged in the steady roll and mix of traffic, moving 30-35 mph while fully taking a lane of traffic.

if you've ridden much in fast, steady metropolitian traffic, you'd know about the traffic dance. cars and you are moving, changing lanes, swinging and dodging.

I was tooling along, taking the lane, and a car in the next lane over decided to make an illegal turn across the lane I was in.

How was what I said NOT about the dance of traffic. I said you should dance right out of that driver's blind spot. You said (twice I think, incl. in the OP) that you were riding the same speed as the traffic. Must be a pretty boring dance, maybe a foxtrot?

And I've ridden plenty in city traffic, thanks for asking.


Pretty simple, a gross violation of the standard rules of the road.
BTW, I didn't mean to imply that you were riding in the driver's blind spot or doing anything wrong. At this point I think we're talking pretty hypothetically.


when you and that other fella talk about slowing down, not letting a car be alongside you, is a gross oversimplification of the chaotic nature of crowded roadways.
Yeah it is simple. That's what I'm trying to say. What I said, read it again. It really does make sense.

not letting a car be alongside you, slowing down when a car passes is explicitly NOT how riding city streets work.

you're in a outside lane, it has turners up ahead, you move into the next lane over. that lane has a truck, you move around the truck, then get slowed up by a traffic light. by picking the correct lane, you move ahead of traffic, move into another lane, only to get stymied by a car changing lanes ahead of you, etc, repeat.

mix it up, change lanes, repeat.

the traffic dance. some of you are familiar with it.

claiming the necessity to slow down when other traffic passes is absolutely wacky.

As I think about it--a car in the next lane to the left, directly alongside you, pacing you. This might be a good time to actually ride further to the RIGHT in your lane. Like Bek, any second you might be "sharing" that lane a lot more closely than you want to, and being further right could give you a couple precious inches of breathing.

Just another step in the dance of traffic.