View Full Version : guarding against the outside hook
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 12:25 AM
i was far enough behind him to not get hooked
WTF? What's the title of this thread again? What did the OP describe?
I see, you were far enough behind him to not get hooked, but you got hooked by him.
Classic, Beck, classic. :rolleyes:
not letting a car be alongside you, slowing down when a car passes is explicitly NOT how riding city streets work.
:eek: You said it again! By the time you read this I'll be somewhere over the overpass, a bike lane stripe on I-96. Dude you didn't say the car was passing you. You said you were going the same speed as the car. How could the car be passing you if you were going the same speed?
you're in a outside lane, it has turners up ahead, you move into the next lane over. that lane has a truck, you move around the truck, then get slowed up by a traffic light. by picking the correct lane, you move ahead of traffic, move into another lane, only to get stymied by a car changing lanes ahead of you, etc, repeat.
mix it up, change lanes, repeat.
the traffic dance. some of you are familiar with it.
claiming the necessity to slow down when other traffic passes is absolutely wacky. Now you lost me. Sorry.
And you said it again! Bek, tell my poor old dad I love him! I'm going to the overpass. No....don't try to stop me, I'm going now.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 12:31 AM
He was far enough back to not get hooked by the guy who hooked him.
He was moving at the same speed as the guy who was passing him.
Impressive.
Never mind the principles of traffic, Beck's supreme riding abilities defy the laws of physics and logic. Wow.
It ain't riding....It's dancing!
:D
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 01:01 AM
There are some classic statements from Beck in this thread... I couldn't make this stuff up.
Was Beck hooked, or not?
a hook from an illegal turner,
the motion of violating my road space was the classic 'hook' manuver
illustrated the situation that a bicyclist fully claiming the lane can still be hooked.
I wasn't in the motorists' blind spot, i was far enough behind him to not get hooked
----
Was Beck going the same speed as the car that hooked him, I mean didn't hook him, or was he going slower so that it could pass him?
I was keeping up with traffic
a car passes you on a multilaned street
fully taking the outside lane on a road and cars are passing or catching up
every time a car passes them
... after a car just passed me ...
traffic was steady.
when other traffic passes
a vehicle in the next lane over cut across without signalling or slowing.
...
I'm asking what A&S riders do to prevent against the hook while fully taking a lane and riding the speed of traffic. head, you seem to portray bikes shouldn't go the same speed as the rest of the traffic.
Bekologist
10-09-07, 08:22 AM
jeeses.
Ridicule from the guy that confuses his car driving with bicycling.
I think you don't have any clue what riding a bike on a busy arterial at the same speed as traffic entails, helemt head, or you wouldn't be ridiculing my descriptions of how bicycling in traffic works.
it was a hook across my lane, an illegal turn at full speed across an outside lane from an inside lane.
I had to brake and swerve and weave to avoid hitting the car.
Of course lane position is not a panacea. Nobody has every claimed or implied otherwise, so far as I know.
I'm a little fuzzy on where this car came from. As I understand it, you were in the right lane, it was in the lane adjacent to yours, but 20-30 feet ahead of you, when the driver suddenly swerved right across your path (if so, that makes it a right hook). But if you roll back the clock 5, 10, 20, 30 seconds, where was this car? Where did it come from? Was it ahead and you were catching up? Was it behind, passed you, and then turned right? Or was it about 20-30 feet ahead for the last 30+ seconds?
Regardless, 20-30' means 1.5-2 car lengths in front of you. That's pretty close, especially at 35 mph. Even with your relatively good natural instincts, you were obviously pushing the limits. I would have backed off a tad.
Whether I'm driving a car or riding my bike, I don't like to be next to other vehicles. If you're moving the same speed as someone next to you, or almost next to you, just ahead, as was in this case, even if you shave only 2 mph off your speed, the gap to them (assuming they maintain the same speed) will grow at 3' per second. If 10 seconds earlier you had tapped your brakes and shaved 2 mph, the car would have been an additional 30 feet in front of you by the time he turned into the side alley.
We all know and understand the risks in tailgating, which means following someone directly in front of you too closely. But I think being that close, even in adjacent space, carries unnecessary risk as well, especially when there are places they can and might turn right. I would back off a tad for a few seconds, maybe 5-10 seconds, enough to establish a more healthy buffer.
How long have you been driving in Southern California? I work to keep a respectable gap between my vehicle and the one in front, and find quite often that gap (at least one car length for every 10MPH) is an invitation to some "bumper hugger" to come in and fill it. I again back off and often find that someone else swoops the gap.
Trying to maintain a gap in traffic when other motorists are oblivious to good motoring practices can be quite frustrating. (the inevitable car "train" of bumper to bumper motorists in the far left lane is quite evident of the lack of good motoring practices).
So at least around here, while one may desire and attempt to keep a gap... the practicality of maintaining a gap is pretty nil.
Regarding the actual events that Bek was facing, I too have had similar, albeit slower situations occur, where motorists sweep past you in a manner that leaves you only reacting in hopes of protecting your skin. Yes, in my case these motorists have come from behind, in the left lane, and then suddenly moved across the right lane in a flash to move to a turn or shopping center driveway.
I can see that in Bek's case, a move by a motorist that was 20-30 feet ahead could even be more surprising, if indeed Bek and the motorist had been in that position for a bit of time.
I find this driving behavior highly unpredictable (the motorist offers no signal, and is NOT destination positioned), quite unsafe, and probably illegal... yet it occurs.
sbhikes
10-09-07, 09:35 AM
claiming the lane does not stop drivers from acting illegally and violating bicyclists right of way.
This is so true and it is why I have found all this center lane panacea business so silly. The further left I ride the further left they drive, to the point that they'll cross a double yellow line on a blind curve in order to right-hook me.
The best thing I believe is to ride like a bicycle, like they expect bicycles to ride and then be prepared. Know your route, too, because you get to know some places certain things tend to happen and you can be extra ready for that by employing such things as center lane positioning if that will help.
But to just ride down the center thinking that you're in the optimal place to prevent certain driver moves is a complete falsehood.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 10:12 AM
jeeses.
Ridicule from the guy that confuses his car driving with bicycling.
I think you don't have any clue what riding a bike on a busy arterial at the same speed as traffic entails, helemt head, or you wouldn't be ridiculing my descriptions of how bicycling in traffic works.
Sifting out the most common statements of Beck's from among the soup of contradictory ones he has made in this thread, and assuming those, combined with the non-contradictory ones, somewhat accurately reflect what actually happened, it appears that:
Beck was riding eastbound along Mercer Street in Seattle, a four lane one-way road, somewhere "near the Seattle Center", so probably between Warren Ave and Aurora (he refuses to pinpoint exactly where).
He was positioned near the center of the leftmost lane (lane #1), riding more or less at the same speed of traffic, around 30-35 mph.
At least one driver was moving considerably faster than Beck, for he passed him in the adjacent #2 lane on Beck's right.
It's unclear to us, and probably to Beck, where the overtaker came from. It is unknown if the overtaking driver was originally also in the leftmost #1 lane, came upon Beck and decided to pass him by going around on his right, or whether he came up in lane #2, or whether he had merged over from the right to end up in #2 before he passed Beck, or what.
We don't know if Beck had a mirror (he hasn't said either way - he has mentioned at least occasional use of mirrors in the past, if I recall correctly). But if he had one, he wasn't using it to maintain rearward situational awareness, at least not enough to know and be able to tell us where this overtaker came from.
Despite the fact that he was approaching a junction with a side street on his left, Beck apparently paid little or no heed to the guy as he passed Beck on the right and then slowed. How do we know the overtaker slowed despite the fact that Beck claims the guy didn't slow before turning left across Beck's path? Because it's doubtful that Beck is mistaken about moving the same speed as the guy at the time the guy turned left, and yet he had to have been going faster than Beck in order to pass him. Therefore, he must have slowed (to Beck's speed) after passing him (at faster than Beck's speed).
j it was a hook across my lane, an illegal turn at full speed across an outside lane from an inside lane.
I had to brake and swerve and weave to avoid hitting the car.
It should not be surprising to an experienced cyclist like Beck that many drivers are resistant to being held up by bicyclists. Beck argues that there is no "fast lane" on city surface streets, but "slower traffic keeps right" applies on any 4 lane road (with the normal exceptions, like when preparing for a left turn). It behooves the vigilant cyclist in either outer lane to look for impatient drivers approaching from behind to cut around towards the inside and hook the cyclist to make their turn into a side street, rather than wait behind them in the outside lane.
When approaching any junction, be prepared for anyone who can and might turn there, legal or not, to do precisely that.
Bekologist
10-09-07, 10:33 AM
you know what assumptions do, dontchya, head.
I was well aware of traffic all around me, that's how savvy riding in traffic works.
tell the forum about your 'tailgater' fallacy again like you did in post #24....
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 11:08 AM
you know what assumptions do, dontchya, head.
I was well aware of traffic all around me, that's how savvy riding in traffic works.
Yes, we know you believe you were well aware of traffic all around you. You also have indicated you're not seeking advice, a sure sign of someone who could use some advice.
You were not aware where the overtaker had come from, and apparently did not notice that he slowed after he passed you as he approached the junction where he eventually cut left in front of you. You say he did this "without warning" which indicates you were not aware that he slowed down, or the significance of approaching the junction with the side street into which he turned left. If that's your idea of being "well aware of traffic all around" you, I suggest you reread Robert Hurst's book, particularly the sections on vigilance and personal responsibility.From now - if some ba$tard breaks every law in the book and runs you over in the process, it will be your fault and nobody else's. That is the meaning of true freedom. That is how we will keep such disasters from happening in the first place.-Robert Hurst, the Art of Urban Cycling, p 65
...
The urban cyclist's best chance is to gather all the responsibility that can be gathered. Hoard it from those around you. Have faith that you will do a better job with it than they will, and make it so. Don't trust your fate to the police, the planners, the pedestrians, or the paramedics. Don't leave your fate to the stars, or to luck. Definitely don't leave your fate to the drivers. -Ibid, p. 67?
I don't hear you claiming any responsibility for what happened, Beck, much less hoarding it. Pay heed to the wise words of Robert, Beck. Pay heed.
Bekologist
10-09-07, 11:26 AM
what if i caught up with the motorist? What if I was pacing traffic? The vehicle didn't pass me, then slow down.
your bully pulpit, "listen to me" attitude is a bit presumptous, head.
tell us about your made up 'tailgater' scenario again...
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 12:03 PM
what if i caught up with the motorist? What if I was pacing traffic? The vehicle didn't pass me, then slow down.
your bully pulpit, "listen to me" attitude is a bit presumptous, head.
tell us about your made up 'tailgater' scenario again...
I still don't hear you claiming any responsibility for what happened, Beck, much less hoarding it. Pay heed to the wise words of Robert, Beck. Pay heed.
If you follow Robert's advice, then you will find the answers to your questions within yourself. "That is the meaning of true freedom. That is how we will keep such disasters from happening in the first place." -RH
It should not be surprising to an experienced cyclist like Beck that many drivers are resistant to being held up by bicyclists.
What I find "surprising" is that many drivers assume they are "being held up," in spite of evidence to indicate otherwise...
Such as when a cyclist is moving at the same speed as other traffic...
Such as when a cyclist and motorist are approaching a stop light....
Such as when traffic is actually stopped at a light and a motorist insists that a cyclist get out of the way...
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 12:29 PM
What I find "surprising" is that many drivers assume they are "being held up," in spite of evidence to indicate otherwise...
Such as when a cyclist is moving at the same speed as other traffic...
Such as when a cyclist and motorist are approaching a stop light....
Such as when traffic is actually stopped at a light and a motorist insists that a cyclist get out of the way...
If you are surprised by that, then you are not a good student of human nature.
joejack951
10-09-07, 12:35 PM
What I find "surprising" is that many drivers assume they are "being held up," in spite of evidence to indicate otherwise...
Such as when a cyclist is moving at the same speed as other traffic...
Such as when a cyclist and motorist are approaching a stop light....
Such as when traffic is actually stopped at a light and a motorist insists that a cyclist get out of the way...
How many more times does it have to occur to you before it's not "surprising" any more? I think the sign of someone who's used to being in traffic, whether on a bike or any other vehicle, is not being surprised when drivers do stupid things. Learning to expect the stupid and knowing how to deal with it makes for a much more pleasant driving experience than being constantly "surprised" at poor driving behavior.
How many more times does it have to occur to you before it's not "surprising" any more? I think the sign of someone who's used to being in traffic, whether on a bike or any other vehicle, is not being surprised when drivers do stupid things. Learning to expect the stupid and knowing how to deal with it makes for a much more pleasant driving experience than being constantly "surprised" at poor driving behavior.
You and I both used quotes in our use of "surprising." I think we both understand that it was a rhetoric statement about motorists, not actual surprise by an experienced cyclist and driver.
What I do find "surprising" is that state authorities continue to give away licenses to people that really should not be driving, or that traffic enforcement is so shoddy that so many motorists get away with so much poor behaviour.
Perhaps it is time for the motoring pendulum to swing back the other way... we have seen the enemy and frankly we are they... not those that propose to terrorize us from abroad, but those that terrorize us daily on our own streets.
noisebeam
10-09-07, 12:49 PM
Maybe 'disappointed' instead of 'surprised'?
Al
littlewaywelt
10-09-07, 12:54 PM
It's purely a matter of judgement. Assuming you have good handling skills which only come from experience be hypervigilant of what's going on around you, spacing and braking distance, you should be fine nearly all of time time if you're not bombing or overly aggressive. It's no different than a car in snow. Don't ride faster than the conditions safely permit.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 01:13 PM
How long have you been driving in Southern California? I work to keep a respectable gap between my vehicle and the one in front, and find quite often that gap (at least one car length for every 10MPH) is an invitation to some "bumper hugger" to come in and fill it. I again back off and often find that someone else swoops the gap.
Trying to maintain a gap in traffic when other motorists are oblivious to good motoring practices can be quite frustrating. (the inevitable car "train" of bumper to bumper motorists in the far left lane is quite evident of the lack of good motoring practices).
So at least around here, while one may desire and attempt to keep a gap... the practicality of maintaining a gap is pretty nil.
Regarding the actual events that Bek was facing, I too have had similar, albeit slower situations occur, where motorists sweep past you in a manner that leaves you only reacting in hopes of protecting your skin. Yes, in my case these motorists have come from behind, in the left lane, and then suddenly moved across the right lane in a flash to move to a turn or shopping center driveway.
I can see that in Bek's case, a move by a motorist that was 20-30 feet ahead could even be more surprising, if indeed Bek and the motorist had been in that position for a bit of time.
I find this driving behavior highly unpredictable (the motorist offers no signal, and is NOT destination positioned), quite unsafe, and probably illegal... yet it occurs.
Of course I'm familiar with the difficulty in maintaining a safe following distance in fast/dense traffic, Gene. It's not clear that this traffic was that dense. In fact, it sounds like it wasn't (unfortunately, Beck has not been very forthcoming with detailed information about the scenario, especially about any other traffic around at the time, indicating a probable overall lack of awareness/vigilance on his part more than anything else). After all, someone was able to pass him in the adjacent lane, so there was space to do at least that. Also, people tend to be paying more attention and are less careless in busy traffic, and so are less likely to suddenly pull a fast one like cutting across another lane. It's impossible to know if the motorist intentionally cut off Beck or simply did not notice him - but either possibility indicates relatively low density in traffic.
But the most important factor here is that they were approaching a junction and Beck was apparently not doing so with due diligence, before, or at the moment the guy cut left. What apparently saved his butt, this time, was good reaction time and exceptional riding skills. It's likely that Beck relies on these skills too much. He should pay heed to Robert's advice, whose book is written for exactly the type of overconfident urban cyclist Beck appears to be. It's good to remind a cyclist like that to "ride with fear". For a cyclist like you, Gene, not so much... ;)
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 01:34 PM
You are a certified loon. Good grief.
Certified by Pete Fagerlin as a loon. Woo hoo! :love: :love: :love:
:rolleyes:
Edit: retracted inappropriate/juvenile stunt.
joejack951
10-09-07, 01:40 PM
You and I both used quotes in our use of "surprising." I think we both understand that it was a rhetoric statement about motorists, not actual surprise by an experienced cyclist and driver.
What I do find "surprising" is that state authorities continue to give away licenses to people that really should not be driving, or that traffic enforcement is so shoddy that so many motorists get away with so much poor behaviour.
Perhaps it is time for the motoring pendulum to swing back the other way... we have seen the enemy and frankly we are they... not those that propose to terrorize us from abroad, but those that terrorize us daily on our own streets.
While in China, I heard (though did not confirm) that it costs 20,000 USD (~160,000 RMB) to get a license plate. That's A LOT of money in China. If you think people here drive poorly, you should spend some time there. Note that I don't drivers there are necessarily poor, just not very defensive which is compensated for by being extremely vigilant. They are most definitely a very large group of impatient people. Lines on the roadway might as well not be there, although the vast, vast majority obey the basic rules of the road still.
You did ask me for a report on the traffic there. There's my summary :)
San Rensho
10-09-07, 01:54 PM
As far as your position in the lane is concerned, this is quite similar to riding on a freeway, but at lower speed. From my motorcycle riding I quickly learned that the safest place to be on the freeway is in the left most lane, because then the idiots can only come at you from the right.
But within the left hand lane, its best to stay as close to the right side of the lane as possible, first, because you are more visible in the rear view mirrors of the cars and second, if a car swerves, you have more room to maneouvre, you can go left or right, while if you are in the left hand side of the lane, you can only move to the right.
noisebeam
10-09-07, 01:58 PM
While in China, I heard (though did not confirm) that it costs 20,000 USD (~160,000 RMB) to get a license plate. That's A LOT of money in China. If you think people here drive poorly, you should spend some time there. Note that I don't drivers there are necessarily poor, just not very defensive which is compensated for by being extremely vigilant. They are most definitely a very large group of impatient people. Lines on the roadway might as well not be there, although the vast, vast majority obey the basic rules of the road still.
You did ask me for a report on the traffic there. There's my summary :)
Fatality Rates--Per 10k M.Vehicle---Per 100k population
China (1996)---------26-------------------6
US (2001)-----------19.1-----------------14.8
http://www.driveandstayalive.com/info%20section/statistics/stats-usa.htm
http://www.factbook.net/EGRF_Regional_analyses_AsiaPacific.htm
Al
While in China, I heard (though did not confirm) that it costs 20,000 USD (~160,000 RMB) to get a license plate. That's A LOT of money in China. If you think people here drive poorly, you should spend some time there. Note that I don't drivers there are necessarily poor, just not very defensive which is compensated for by being extremely vigilant. They are most definitely a very large group of impatient people. Lines on the roadway might as well not be there, although the vast, vast majority obey the basic rules of the road still.
You did ask me for a report on the traffic there. There's my summary :)
Been there, tend to agree... especially on your assessment of the lines on the road. Now the most ironic situation is that a visiting Chinese person can easily get a drivers' license here in the US with very little effort.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 03:03 PM
The "fag" bit was quite popular with the insecure boys in junior high school.
Yeah, I figured. Probably where you learned the best defense is a strong offensive offense when dealing with people.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 03:08 PM
As far as your position in the lane is concerned, this is quite similar to riding on a freeway, but at lower speed. From my motorcycle riding I quickly learned that the safest place to be on the freeway is in the left most lane, because then the idiots can only come at you from the right.
But within the left hand lane, its best to stay as close to the right side of the lane as possible, first, because you are more visible in the rear view mirrors of the cars and second, if a car swerves, you have more room to maneouvre, you can go left or right, while if you are in the left hand side of the lane, you can only move to the right.
Good point - it's the mirror image of being in the leftmost/outside lane where being further left makes you more conspicuous for the same reasons.
Yeah, I figured. Probably where you learned the best defense is a strong offensive offense when dealing with people.
Translated - "When in doubt, be a d*ck". In this case, a juvenile d*ck.
Allister
10-09-07, 05:58 PM
You also have indicated you're not seeking advice, a sure sign of someone who could use some advice.
Dang. That one burst my ironometer. I'm gonna have to get an extra heavy duty one if you're going to post any more like that.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 06:11 PM
Dang. That one burst my ironometer. I'm gonna have to get an extra heavy duty one if you're going to post any more like that.
If you're trying to imply that I don't seek advice, you're very wrong.
Allister
10-09-07, 06:25 PM
Certified by Pete Fagerlin as a loon. Woo hoo! :love: :love: :love:
Quoting Hurst as though it was holy scripture is kinda loony.
Edit: retracted inappropriate/juvenile stunt.
Such wisdom in one so young.
Allister
10-09-07, 06:27 PM
If you're trying to imply that I don't seek advice, you're very wrong.
You could certainly use some.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 06:34 PM
You could certainly use some.
Bring it on.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 06:35 PM
Quoting Hurst as though it was holy scripture is kinda loony.
Yes it is, except I didn't do that. I just quoted him, and suggest it would behoove Beck to follow his advice.
Quoting Hurst as though it was holy scripture is kinda loony.
Especially in light of the fact that Hurst himself has, on several occasions, reamed HH for being such a persistent whack job.
Allister
10-09-07, 08:08 PM
Yes it is, except I didn't do that. I just quoted him, and suggest it would behoove Beck to follow his advice.
Using the word 'behoove' is definitely a sign of instabilty.
Allister
10-09-07, 09:31 PM
Bring it on.
Never underestimate the value of brevity.
Always put the toilet seat down.
Don't tug on Superman's cape
Don't spit into the wind
Don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
And don't mess around with Jim
Bekologist
10-09-07, 10:42 PM
It's good to remind a cyclist like that to "ride with fear".
:roflmao:
a new slogan! "Ride with fear, the Helmet Head way!"
I want to hear more about Head's fantasies of cutting in on the tailgaters.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 10:51 PM
Never underestimate the value of brevity.
Always put the toilet seat down.
Don't tug on Superman's cape
Don't spit into the wind
Don't pull the mask off the old Lone Ranger
And don't mess around with Jim
Thanks.
Helmet Head
10-09-07, 11:00 PM
:roflmao:
a new slogan! "Ride with fear, the Helmet Head way!"
I want to hear more about Head's fantasies of cutting in on the tailgaters.
Ride with Fear is Robert Hurst's slogan, Beck, not mine. You should read his book again. Given your close call described in the OP and refusal to acknowledge any personal responsibility for what happened, you could definitely use a refresher.
Bekologist
10-09-07, 11:31 PM
you think, honestly purport "ride with fear" is Robert Hurst's slogan? dude, you are so far fetched. Ride with fear is your little monster in the closet, Helmet.
my personal responsibilty was avoiding getting hooked, which i did with aplomb. go reread my first post, maybe you can figure out how and why I avoided the hook (hint-inside edge biased)
reading your purported 'techniques' for avoiding hooks - I loved the bit about the 'cutting in on the taligaters' by the way - I can see how "ride with fear" is definetly Helmet Head's traffic mantra.
Helmet Head
10-10-07, 12:13 AM
you think, honestly purport "ride with fear" is Robert Hurst's slogan? dude, you are so far fetched. Ride with fear is your little monster in the closet, Helmet.
Read his book, Beck. You'll find it when you get to the last line.
my personal responsibilty was avoiding getting hooked, which i did with aplomb. go reread my first post, maybe you can figure out how and why I avoided the hook (hint-inside edge biased)
reading your purported 'techniques' for avoiding hooks - I loved the bit about the 'cutting in on the taligaters' by the way - I can see how "ride with fear" is definetly Helmet Head's traffic mantra.
Okay, Beck, I'm starting to worry about you. Your revisionism is bordering on being delusional.
In the OP you wrote:
I was fully in the outside lane. maybe even a little inside edge biased.
Now that San Rensho has pointed out (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5422527#post5422527) you should not have been in the center of the lane, but further right, to be more visible to others, you're claiming that you weren't merely "maybe even a little inside edge biased", but you were definitely a lot inside edge biased??? Dude, get a grip. You were controlling the full lane, from a centerish position, "maybe even a little inside edge biased". You were not out at the right tire track. You were not out at the right edge of the lane. And you were not being very vigilant. You did not notice the guy who passed you slowing down (because you were traveling at his speed when he cut left, so he must have slowed down to get to your speed after he passed you). You did not bleed the brakes to slow down a tad as you approached the intersection where he might cut left in front of you. You're just darn lucky you have good reactions and bike handling skills.
Allister
10-10-07, 12:56 AM
you think, honestly purport "ride with fear" is Robert Hurst's slogan? dude, you are so far fetched. Ride with fear is your little monster in the closet, Helmet.
I find it amusing that Serge seems to be disowning himself from his theories and putting them all onto Hurst and Franklin, as if that will give him more credibility. :lol:
Bekologist
10-10-07, 08:34 AM
I think helment head is the one who needs to get a grip.
enough with your deconstructionism about how and where i was riding. you think when I say in the first post, "I was controlling the lane, maybe even a little inside edge biased" doesn't mean I was riding inside tire track or close to the edge?
why doesn't that mean I was inside edge biased and controlling the lane?
why don't your also recognize that riding in traffic is NOT static positioning to begin with, that a rider moves in the lanes according to conditions unfolding up ahead?
and the driver did NOT pass me, dude. everyone else began to make assumptions that the driver passed me. I was in traffic, riding the same speed of traffic.
what is your problem?
I can see you get a little thrill out of being the safety nanny and making broad sweeping conclusions based on the 'hed (thinks) he knows best' fallacy.
Bekologist
10-10-07, 08:42 AM
ride with fear and joy- robert hurst.
ride with fear - helemt head.
Helmet Head
10-10-07, 09:16 AM
I don't think you need to be reminded to ride with joy, Beck. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Per the incident that you describe in this thread, and the vague and inconsistent manner in which you describe it, you do seem to need to be reminded to pay more attention to traffic around you, especially whenever approaching junctions. For the first time since I read Robert's book several years ago, I have discovered possible value for the dark "fear" theme that is threaded through the whole thing, and culminates with being half the message in the final sentence of his book. Such an approach may be useful to reach a rider like you - someone who views his ability to barely avoid a normal predictable traffic scenario (dude turns into a side street from one lane over - wow, so rare :rolleyes:) by the skin of his scrotum thanks to his riding skills - to get you to realize that you should be more careful and pay better attention. You refer to your emergency maneuver as being done with "with aplomb", and I don't doubt it. And that's good. What concerns me is the aplomb with which you write about this incident, conveying little if any genuine interest in learning how you could avoid having to resort to such a maneuver in the first place. Maybe, just maybe, Robert's "ride with fear" message can drill through your thick skull. But I'm not holding my breath.
Bekologist
10-10-07, 09:22 AM
what a safety nanny :rolleyes:
head. one last time. stop thinking you know best. go reread my first post. none of what you made up about my riding position, how the car was positioned or it's speed on the road holds water. why don't you think, in my first post, when I said i was going the same speed as traffic, and was 20-30 feet behind the car, means I WASN'T properly 'paying attention to the vehicles around me?' your presumptions are far reaching and incorrect.
just because a car hooked me in an outside lane without any notice, you think I wasn't aware of the possibility of it occuring?
Because you conviently dodge questions when you think you have a point to make, i'm going to repeat myself.
.....enough with your deconstructionism about how and where i was riding. you think when I say in the first post, "I was controlling the lane, maybe even a little inside edge biased" doesn't mean I was riding inside tire track or close to the edge?
why doesn't that mean I was inside edge biased and controlling the lane?
why don't you also recognize that riding in traffic is NOT static positioning to begin with, that a rider moves in the lanes according to conditions unfolding up ahead?
however, your armchair advice of slowing down when cars pass, and breaking up lines of tailgaters was hilarious!
do you ever pass cars, serge? do you ever go about the same speed as motorists? It sounds like your 'ride with fear' belief prevent you from mixing it up with traffic.
and on a related note, are you riding your bicycle to work this morning?
(and I DON'T mean "driving your car as if it were a bike", part timer!)
(it's kind of funny, head. on my ride to work this morning, I'm going to be picturing you riding, 9 miles an hour, plodding along in the outside lane, terrified of traffic approaching from behind and slowing down every time a car comes alongside.
Helmet Head
10-10-07, 09:25 AM
You're welcome.
Farleybob
10-10-07, 02:24 PM
Ok, I'm a total newbie.......and I've read this stupid thread looking to gain some knowledge and information........what a friggin' waste of time!
Bek started out with a story of near collision, I was a little vague on lane position until his second or third post clarified that.
HHead made some valid observations and comments about safe positioning and avoiding blind spots if possible, but never seemed to understand what Bek obviously stated about his lane position??
Bek totally misconstrues what HHead is saying about lane positioning and blind spots and then the two of you piss on each others' shoes for almost five pages!!!!
Is this what I can expect when reading threads on this forum?? .........or do you two just have such an adversarial relationship that you can never agree on anything? or try to understand a simple point made by the other?
Helmet Head
10-10-07, 03:02 PM
Ok, I'm a total newbie.......and I've read this stupid thread looking to gain some knowledge and information........what a friggin' waste of time!
Bek started out with a story of near collision, I was a little vague on lane position until his second or third post clarified that.
HHead made some valid observations and comments about safe positioning and avoiding blind spots if possible, but never seemed to understand what Bek obviously stated about his lane position??
I still don't understand where Beck was in the lane at the time the guy cut left. Now he's claiming he was near the "inside" (right) edge of the leftmost lane, but then why did he say he was "maybe" a "little" towards the inside edge in the OP, which clearly implied a centerish position, not a position several feet right of center?
Bek totally misconstrues what HHead is saying ...
Welcome to A&S. Your guess is good as mine as to whether he does this because he's incapable of understanding or because he's just a jack*****.
about lane positioning and blind spots and then the two of you piss on each others' shoes for almost five pages!!!!
I apologize to you and everyone else whose time that was wasted for my contribution to the shoe pissing. I try not to engage, but sometimes it's hard.
Is this what I can expect when reading threads on this forum?? .........or do you two just have such an adversarial relationship that you can never agree on anything? or try to understand a simple point made by the other?
Bek is one of several regulars here whose sole purpose seems to be to piss on my shoes.
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