Utility Cycling - Bakfiet Qs

So I was pedalling the tyke around in the rear rack mounted seat on my regular mountain bike and ran into an annoyance that I wonder if a bakfiet would also suffer from.

Well, first, what is the acceleration like for an 80lb bike? My kid isn't that heavy yet. And when she is, then that'll be even more mass to get moving. It makes me wonder how much a CroMo frame would help the weight. Or is it the box that's really heavy?

Yeah, there's the HPM Long John, but I'm starting to see the appeal of a stepthrough frame, internal gear, chainguard (the kid really likes grabbing at my chain and getting a greasy hand), built in lights, etc.

But the big issue is comfort- does the frame (either CroMo or HiTen) flex enough to make the ride at least moderately comfortable given the usual sad state of repair I assume most roads in the US are like? (Especially in the "bike lane" where it's usually dug up and patched over more than the center of the street, where tree roots heave the pavement more, etc.) And I mean for the passengers in the box since they can't stand on the pedals over a bump (if they even know how or when to). What do you do? Put a pillow on the bench seat? How about articulating the box and put a shock on that? Okay,that's going overboard, but I'm designing it in my head right now. How about just a rubber bumper mounted box?

Anybody have any other questions about bakfiets that I assume someone else here can answer?

The van Andel bakfiets is actually just shy of 100 lbs. It accelerates like a barge. Don't get it or other Dutch utility bike if snappy acceleration is high on your list of cargo bike virtues, unless maybe downhill. Here's dad carrying mom and 2 kids; I had the camera while riding my own son in the bak: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5526235148547506376&hl=en

The bak itself is heavy marine ply; feels like more resin than wood. CroMo is only a few percent stronger than hi-ten. The heaviness overall is because the Dutch expect a bike to be able to stand up to decades of abuse parked on the street, in the rain and marine salt air below sea level of Holland, with no protection and little or no maintenance. For example, they drill out the hub flanges to accept 12-gauge spokes, and they put 36 of them, built 3-cross, in a 20-inch wheel. MASSIVELY overbuilt.

I speculate that heaviness is a help in a flat country where strong winds are the biggest challenge. The momentum just helps it plow through, like an icebreaker. It also gives it a pleasing feeling of smoothness. The bike doesn't leap forward under your pedaling and flag immediately. It's more like shoveling coal into a boiler of a train. You can take a break and hardly notice any slowdown.

When riding a little too close to the door zone, it's nice to imagine that the bak would tear a car's door clean off. Your own private battering ram.

Low weight is the main way expensive bikes are sold in North America, and I tell you with total confidence that it's not NEARLY as important as it's made out to be, especially for applications that don't resemble mountain stages in the Tour de France. A light bike can be much more tiring than a heavy one. How? Your position on the bike, and the kind of feedback you get from the bike, determines the level of effort that feels right. Superlight bikes with aggressive rider posture make the riders try really hard. Tooling along gently on such bikes is painful and sort of makes you feel like you're wasting something. They're high maintenance in more ways than one: living up to the speed potential of your race-light bike can be a real burden. The van Andel bakfiets (there are many different bakfiets designs, not to be confused!) is not demanding this way. It feels perfectly right to ride slowly; it handles sweetly at low (and high!) speeds. It's about talking with your kids and noticing things in the world around you, not about dropping your buddies or monitoring your heart rate. It's like walking but you're going 10-15 instead of 13-18 as you might at similar effort on a speed-engineered bike, on the flat. Note: this means you get to ride longer for any given journey. Do you like riding or not?

The ride is very, very smooth for passengers especially, as the long steel boom flexes over bumps and rough stuff (if it was lighter aluminum, it would have to be made stiff enough not to flex like this, because aluminum's fatigue life isn't up to acting like a spring). The child seats are like 3-4 feet horizontally from either axle -- do the trigonometry. One of the first parties to buy in Portland was a film crew, for use as a smooth silent filming platform.

I've ridden a bakfiets 35 miles with my son in an afternoon. Totally comfortable. We rent bakfietsen. An annual Portland event is "Bridge Pedal," where they close the Willamette bridges to motor traffic. It's 26 miles if you do all of them. A fellow living a bit over 10 miles from the start rented a bakfiets the day before for the event, to haul 2 of his children. We were a little bit apprehensive because he wasn't all that avid a cyclist. He rode it 50 miles with his 2 kids that day and had a great time. No clipless pedals or aero whatever, and no "training." Impressive, but not incredible.

Thanks for the answers. I just read into it that ride compliance wasn't that great when grandma needed pillows for her ride- for comfort I had assumed. But wouldn't it be great to put a beanbag chair into the box? :)

Yeah, momentum is nice to have if you're not hitting every stoplight. Another flipside of the weight arguement is that the inertia also helps prevent giving your passenger(s) whiplash.

It had occured to me that in a land known for its windmills, Dutch bikes heve to be immune to the wind somehow, and it certainly isn't the aerodynamics. The low center of mass on a bakfiet is also much better in crosswinds than a racktop child seat.

I just read into it that ride compliance wasn't that great when grandma needed pillows for her ride- for comfort I had assumed.
The pillows were just for isolating her bony butt and back from the bare marine plywood, which would have been a bit harsh even without moving.

tfahrner,
Thanks for the input on the Bakfiets. I have been looking at the possibility and the more I read and hear the better I like it. Now to convince the CFO...:rolleyes:;) I think another year of whining and groveling should do it:p

Aaron:)

How does it deal with hills, particularly long steep ones, like http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2193995440093031584EjmmoS or http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1368491511013987822tyWKZB ? I don't want to spend all that money and then find that most of the town is inaccessible.

How does it deal with hills, particularly long steep ones, like http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2193995440093031584EjmmoS or http://outdoors.webshots.com/photo/1368491511013987822tyWKZB ? I don't want to spend all that money and then find that most of the town is inaccessible.
Bikes don't deal with hills; riders do. It can be geared with a low gear about 25 inches, which is near where some MTBs have their granny. It will climb as well as any heavy bike with a low gear of 25 inches. The braking capability is a more serious issue for riders strong enough to handle the uphills: long, steep, loaded descents require extra caution.

Bikes don't deal with hills; riders do.

That is true; but there are mechanical limitations to every machine, and not all of us are powerful trained atheletes.

You bring up brakes. Are the standard-issue brakes on the BF adiquate for Appalachian descents, especialy if the bike is loaded? If not, what sort of upgrade is suggested?

"If you have to ask..." I would not recommend a van Andel bakfiets to anybody whose routes necessarily involve extremely steep extended climbing and descending, who is not willing to push, or who is otherwise uncertain of his or her abilities and judgment. There is no practical upgrade in braking capability. That said, there's a happy owner in San Francisco who hauls 2 kids. It is usually possible to avoid the steepest grades in SF by taking a longer route. I recognize that this isn't possible in many places, Bruce.

It is usually possible to avoid the steepest grades in SF by taking a longer route. I recognize that this isn't possible in many places, Bruce.

I have some friends who live at just about the highest point in the city. The route they usually give to their place is difficult almost to the point of impossibility by bicycle. One can do it, but one arrives hot, tired, dripping with sweat, and usually in a very bad mood. I thought that, perhaps, if I went around the other side of the hill and came up that way it might be easier. No such luck; it was even harder.

On Another List I have been exchanging information with someone from Vermont who has one; Vermon't terrain is not unlike ours. I have been getting some good information from him, which leads me to think that a bak might not be as unsuitable to WV as I thought at first.

I have been pondering the question of hills as well. I live in California in Silicon Valley in a community that is mostly hills. I've got two kids (4 and 1.5 yrs) and would love to have a way to ride them around on weekends, go to farmers market, hit the coffee shop, etc.

I would think the limiting factors are indeed brakes, but also riding posture.

Re: posture. It looks very cramped to be able to stand up on the pedals to get up hills. And, I don't know if this is even something you'd want to do with 2 kids and groceries in the box. I've seen some owners put Stokemonkeys on a Bakfiets (http://johngarrish.blogspot.com/2007/12/stoked-bakfiets.html), but this seems like it adds a lot of complexity, plus weight. Plus 1200 clams.

As for brakes, I see a lot of discussion re: optimal Xtracycle setups, which I think is a comparable problem. How do you control a bike that weighs a lot, both unloaded and loaded? Especially with passengers where safety is more important than with, say, 50 lbs of cheetos from Safeway.

Here (http://clevercycles.com/blog/?p=136) is a post at Clevercycles (http://clevercycles.com/) of a recommended Xtracycle setup. The key points on this rig are:

1. FAT 26" wheels front and rear. As opposed to the Bakfiets 20" up front.
2. Downhill discs on both wheels. As opposed to ??? drums? Not sure what the Bakfiets has.
3. Wide bars for leverage and stability.

So the question I have is -- which would be better for an area with serious hills... a Bakfiets or a longtail / Xtracycle? At this point I'm thinking longtail purely for safety considerations. Though I love the simplicity of the cargo box on the Bakfiets and the cover for inclement weather so help me out here people!!! :)

You want to carry a 1.5 year old on the back of a longtail? Don't ride for too long. Kid might fall asleep and fall off.

I was riding my folding bike through Times Square last week... I do it every day, and stop at the same light every time, and know that when it goes green I have to get up to speed ASAP to take advantage of a wave of greens down to Penn Station (if I can get past 36th st, I'm golden; but I don't usually get that far before the lights start changing). Anyway, just as I'm hitting my cruising speed of somewhere around 20 mph, I notice a bicycle wheel pulling up on my left. Now that's odd, I thought, turning my head (dangerous thing to do in traffic). Oh, it's a bakfiets. DOUBLETAKE THAT! Yes, it's a bakfiets, first one I've seen on this side of the Atlantic, and the guy is hammering that pup. "Nice Bike!" I yelled. "Yeah, *#%@ you too!" yelled a taxi driver who happened to have his window down. I guess he misheard me....

Somehow, I ran across this article a while back, and found it a good read. A quote explains some things:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20061030/ai_n16811144

"All the bikes, including ours, are Dutch-built, and it doesn't look like they've changed the design since the 1890s. With hefty, high handlebars, at least one child seat and a basket, they weigh about 12 tons, have a stopping distance longer than a Rotterdam freighter and a turning circle that rarely fails to make you worried about falling into a nearby canal. But they're great. Completely unexportable because a gradient of more than 1 in 10,000 simply means you stop and fall off."

Somehow, I ran across this article a while back, and found it a good read. A quote explains some things:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20061030/ai_n16811144

"All the bikes, including ours, are Dutch-built, and it doesn't look like they've changed the design since the 1890s. With hefty, high handlebars, at least one child seat and a basket, they weigh about 12 tons, have a stopping distance longer than a Rotterdam freighter and a turning circle that rarely fails to make you worried about falling into a nearby canal. But they're great. Completely unexportable because a gradient of more than 1 in 10,000 simply means you stop and fall off."

A very clever article, but I think that the quoted paragraph was exaggerating a little for humorous effect.

Re: posture. It looks very cramped to be able to stand up on the pedals to get up hills. And, I don't know if this is even something you'd want to do with 2 kids and groceries in the box. I've seen some owners put Stokemonkeys on a Bakfiets (http://johngarrish.blogspot.com/2007/12/stoked-bakfiets.html), but this seems like it adds a lot of complexity, plus weight. Plus 1200 clams.
Please note that Stokemonkey is not available at the moment for Xtracycles, and will likely never be available in a form suitable for fitting to a bakfiets. The only 2 stoked bakfietsen in existence are experiments, not product offerings. I spend a lot of time fending off requests for this "product." There is not enough rubber on the road relative to the load capacity and odd weight distribution of a bakfiets to make motor assistance safe outside of the hands of experts.

Re standing to pedal, you don't, at least not very effectively. Climbing technique is more like that of a recumbent: spin when you can, but when you can't, lean back and pull on the bars for more torque.

As for brakes, I see a lot of discussion re: optimal Xtracycle setups, which I think is a comparable problem. How do you control a bike that weighs a lot, both unloaded and loaded? Especially with passengers where safety is more important than with, say, 50 lbs of cheetos from Safeway.

Here (http://clevercycles.com/blog/?p=136) is a post at Clevercycles (http://clevercycles.com/) of a recommended Xtracycle setup. The key points on this rig are:

1. FAT 26" wheels front and rear. As opposed to the Bakfiets 20" up front.
2. Downhill discs on both wheels. As opposed to ??? drums? Not sure what the Bakfiets has.
3. Wide bars for leverage and stability.
The key differences in braking performance of bakfiets v longtail are that the longtail has a more consistent and familiar weight distribution across wheels, that the wheels can have soft fat tires for big contact patches, that the brake cable routing is simple and short for good modulation, and that the choice of brake types is wide open. With a bakfiets you have this amazingly light feel even with huge loads in the front that can easily fool you into underestimating safe stopping distances. The bakfiets' drum brakes feel a bit soft as is, but it is still possible in extreme/panic situations to skid the wheels, including the front wheel, and then you crash. Beefing up the brakes per se isn't the answer (you can't without brazing or welding anyway). Keeping your speeds reasonable is.

(on the upside, a bakfiets crashes excellently, at least in my limited experience. the bak itself sucks up the hurt and it skids straight. my kid proclaims it fun. closed course, stupid rider, do not attempt, especially if approaching intersection )

So the question I have is -- which would be better for an area with serious hills... a Bakfiets or a longtail / Xtracycle? At this point I'm thinking longtail purely for safety considerations. Though I love the simplicity of the cargo box on the Bakfiets and the cover for inclement weather so help me out here people!!! :)
A longtail, unless you are (a) a very strong climber and (b) a very cautious descender and (c) put an inordinate priority on the ease of handling with very heavy loads, low maintenance, weather protection, and social value of a bakfiets. A longtail is a good jack-of-many-trades (master of none?). A bakfiets is a flatland kid-hauling masterpiece: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja_tBjqEzeg

There's a bakfiets in SF and another in Brisbane (hilly suburb on the peninsula). The SF owner offers test rides (so be nice): http://clevercycles.com/?p=201#comment-57002

Thanks, Todd. I'm beginning to think that a BF would be totally unsuitable for Charleston unless I restricted myself to the Flats, which would leave much of the city inaccessible. If I were to get one I'd still need my other bikes in reserve for when I needed to go up into the hills. I'm sorry about that, as they look like good machines.