Fifty Plus (50+) - As experienced 50-plussers, does spoke length matter?

No, seriously.
After swapping out the cluster on my LeMond this weekend, I am flushed with confidence and excitement and am ready to tackle rebuilding my Kaitai's rear wheel. My useless ex-LBS who delivered to me a rear wheel in pieces and with no idea what size spokes they used to build the front ("Uhhh... I don't know?" Yes, that is an actual quote when I asked them. Idiots). So, I pulled one of the spokes off of the front wheel and measured it. Seems to be about as close to 292mm as I can measure. But I read somewhere that the driver side spokes should be 2mm shorter. Does that really matter? If I'm going to buy a box 50 spokes, can't I just use them all the way around?

No, the rear wheel uses 2 different lengths. You might want to consult Sheldon Brown or a book called "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt. My LBS has a machine to cut and thread spokes in any length.

No, seriously.
After swapping out the cluster on my LeMond this weekend, I am flushed with confidence and excitement and am ready to tackle rebuilding my Kaitai's rear wheel. My useless ex-LBS who delivered to me a rear wheel in pieces and with no idea what size spokes they used to build the front ("Uhhh... I don't know?" Yes, that is an actual quote when I asked them. Idiots). So, I pulled one of the spokes off of the front wheel and measured it. Seems to be about as close to 292mm as I can measure. But I read somewhere that the driver side spokes should be 2mm shorter. Does that really matter? If I'm going to buy a box 50 spokes, can't I just use them all the way around?

Yes, size matters.


And the length of your front spokes have nothing to do with the length of your rear spokes. And half your rear spokes will be one size, the other half will be another.

Here's what Sheldon Brown says.
http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

http://www.geocities.com/spokeanwheel/index.html


Also check out "The Bicycle Wheel" by Jobst Brandt.


Good building. It's a very satisfying feeling to build a wheel and have it last and last.

Yeah, I've read through Sheldon's page a couple of times. I don't see where it says anything explicit about front vs rear spoke length. Maybe I'm just being thick this morning. Also, while I will grant that the rear drive side spokes might need to be shorter than the non-drive side, how do you figure -given the same rim and hub sizes as the front- that the rears spokes aren't the same size as the fronts?

The front is a narrower hub thus will have shorter spokes than the rear wheel. I have build many many rear wheel with the same length spokes, it can work just fine. You have to be sure that the spokes are fully engaged in the nipples on the non-drive side, and that the spokes do not protrude from the ends of the nipples on the drive side. THe

At the end of Sheldon's article there is a list of spoke length calculators. Given the model of hub and rim, one can get a listing of spokes that are appropriate for any given wheel. I was going to recomend the spoke calculator at DT Swiss but it appears that at the present they are building a new DT Swiss USA web page and none of the existing links work.

Chances are that your front wheel is symetrical (non disc) so right and left spokes are the same.
The rear is not symetrical and may not even be the same as the front. There is a hub spec called "offset" for both the drive side and non drive side flanges. this will result as you noticed in different spoke lengths for left and right rear. If the front "offset" is not the same as either of the ones for the rear then it is possible that a 3rd length spoke is necessary. Best you refer to one of the calculators for an answer.

It gets worse if disc brakes are involved or non centerline spoke holes in the rim like some of the Ritchey offset units.

You can order spokes in quantities less than 50 from many online retailers like JensenUSA, Performance, Nashbar or some others but they do not always have what you want in stock (packs of 18 or 20)

This *does* get complicated, doesn't it? And, actually, they *are* disc brakes.
I do know about those calculators and have looked at them. Unfortunately, my rims and hubs are OEM parts and not listed so I have to take all the measurements. I worry if I don't get those right that I will be in trouble. I have contacted Bontrager to see what they can tell me. Assuming they get back to me. I'm not optimistic about that.

Looks like I either (a) better find a reputable shop to do it or (b) buy a new built wheel


And thanks for all the input guys.

You might search the Mechanics Forum. There are semi-frequent posts about spoke length. It seems that "typically", rear spokes vary by about 3? MM from 1 side to the other.

I think I'm gonna take the coward's way out

I think I'm gonna take the smart way out


There. Fixed.:D

Yeah... that's what I meant to say. Thanks T'man!

I am particular about my wheels and use a very good wheelbuilder that you haven't found yet. Sometime I will have to get a decent Wheel building jig and try rebuilding one myself- but untill then- My LBS sorts my major wheelbuilding problems.

On the MTB's-My wheels used to get abused and Used so much that in one year- They would be needing major rebuilds. I found it was cheaper to buy a new wheel than have it re-rimmed or respoked. I was using the standard XT hub- 32 spokes and a lightweight rim- but with my LBS- they would charge me more than than I could send away to my Wheelbuilder and buy one of his stock replacement wheels. All that has changed as my wheels have gone upmarket and got more expensive and it is now cheaper to re-rim or spoke most of my wheels than buy a replacement. My LBS give me a "Price-Match" for what I can find on the net for rebuilds- or at least come somewhere near it.

I would suggest Finding a wheel builder to replace the wheel that is now in bits- but have a try at rebuilding your own wheel- just to see if you can do it.

In that way- You will be able to pass the Spoke length back to us in a few years time for when we want to build wheels up.

And the server is slowing up again tonight

Lickbike has all of the 29os siizes in stock.....$13.00 per 20 spokes including nipples. All you need to measure determine your rim ERD is 2 spokes and a 30 inch ruler (preferably in mm incriments) and a set of calipers to measure your hub specs. Once you measure the flange and hub spacing, plug the numbers into one of several calculators. Always round down.
I jus finished a wheelset with XT (6 bolt disc) hubs, DT Comp spokes, and Mavic XC 717 Disc rims....3 sizes total... length 1 for left front (disc) and drive rear......length 2 for right front...and length 3 for non drive (disc) rear. Left front was 1mm shorter than right front and non-drive rear was 2mm longer than drive side......all spokes were no more than one thread below flush with nipple.
Go for it.....tis fun and very gratifying.

Hmmm. Isn't Kaitai a mountain bike? 292mm sounds to me like a 700c spoke size. Generally 26" wheel spokes will be 260 something.

If you get it over here to The Bicycle Garage in Fremont, they do a nice job on wheels.

Hmmm. Isn't Kaitai a mountain bike? 292mm sounds to me like a 700c spoke size. Generally 26" wheel spokes will be 260 something.

It is a hybrid with 700c wheels, actually.

I guess I'm not ready to invest in a dish gauge and calipers.
I don't have any spokes right now... the wheel is in pieces (see the OP)

I'll be trying out a shop in SF that's supposed to have a very good rep. We'll see.
Maybe I'll do the next set of wheels. It's not like I haven't done them before, though it was 20+ years ago.

It is a hybrid with 700c wheels, actually.

I guess I'm not ready to invest in a dish gauge and calipers.
I don't have any spokes right now... the wheel is in pieces (see the OP)

I'll be trying out a shop in SF that's supposed to have a very good rep. We'll see.
Maybe I'll do the next set of wheels. It's not like I haven't done them before, though it was 20+ years ago.

Now you have learned one of lifes important lessons..................size always matters...:) and yes, it does sometimes get complicated. You can always get a better job by hiring someone else to do it but its more fun to do it yourself


:eek:

Just gotta say that when i saw this question about "does spoke length matter" I was sure it was not about spoke length.

There are a number of spoke lenght calculators on the web. Do a google search on "spokecalc". Building wheels is not all that difficult.

There are a number of spoke lenght calculators on the web. Do a google search on "spokecalc". Building wheels is not all that difficult.

I know. Read the rest of this thread.

Well, now... hold on a second.
I contacted Bontrager yesterday and, after I explained that I had no existing rear spokes to measure, they talked to the wheel engineering group and came up back with some lengths for me. Rear drive side is 261mm, rear nondrive side is 263mm. I measured the front at 292mm. Wow, a 3cm difference between front and rear? I'll say length matters.

Well, now... hold on a second.
I contacted Bontrager yesterday and, after I explained that I had no existing rear spokes to measure, they talked to the wheel engineering group and came up back with some lengths for me. Rear drive side is 261mm, rear nondrive side is 263mm. I measured the front at 292mm. Wow, a 3cm difference between front and rear? I'll say length matters.

Has to be the result of oxygen starvation........................remeasure the front....:eek:

Has to be the result of oxygen starvation........................remeasure the front....:eek:

Yeah, sounds wrong to me, as well.
I'm pretty confident in that 292mm figure.
I laid the spoke sown on paper and marked the end and the bend.
Then I put the ruler to it... 292mm.
Maybe Bontrager is really helpful but not very clueful?
I've sent them a followup, let's see if they get back to me again. I don't want to push them.

292 is in the range for 700c wheels and the 260's are appropriate for MTB wheels. That must be one strange looking bike. Maybe this is why you think your always climbing hills!

:lol: It's good climbing practice for sure... especially when I throw the bike on the trainer.

Hm Good observation on the wheel sizes. These are both 700c wheels... partly why it's classified as a hybrid, I guess. Since he confirmed that drive side is 2mm shorter than the non-drive side, maybe I could go with 290/292 (respectively)?

Or just take it to the shop.
If they can do it in 2 days as they say, I might lose out on the experience but I'll have a bike I can ride again much sooner. I haven't been able to take the Fisher out for 2 or 3 months now :(
I miss it.

The ongoing saga. I rechecked with Bontrager and they flatly state that the front and rears are the same length -263mm, non-disc side and 261mm, disc side- yet I absolutely, dead certain measure a front at 292mm plus or minus. So, either my ruler is nuts or Bontrager is. I clarified with them that I have a 700c wheel. So... do I believe them and order 261mm and 262mm or do I believe my ruler and my eyes and order 292's? This is pretty insane

The ongoing saga. I rechecked with Bontrager and they flatly state that the front and rears are the same length -263mm, non-disc side and 261mm, disc side- yet I absolutely, dead certain measure a front at 292mm plus or minus. So, either my ruler is nuts or Bontrager is. I clarified with them that I have a 700c wheel. So... do I believe them and order 261mm and 262mm or do I believe my ruler and my eyes and order 292's? This is pretty insane

You let the fellow who is going to build the wheels for you worry about that. At least that's what I would do. :D

You let the fellow who is going to build the wheels for you worry about that. At least that's what I would do. :D

Well, yeah, I should, you're right
But, for some reason, I just can't shake the desire to take a whack at it myself.
Then, if I can't get anyone to give me accurate, consistent lengths and I don't really have to tools to measure the hub so I can calculate it myself, maybe I *am* nuts for even thinking about it.
I do know the rim has an ERD of 604mm. It says so right on the rim :D

You know the ERD of your rim.
Measure the diameter of the hub (to the spoke holes).
Measure the the positions of the flanges/lock nuts such that you know how far from center the flanges are.
Know how many spokes you're going to use, and in what pattern.

Now Google "spoke length calculator" and be done.

Anyone telling you what you need without all of the above information is guessing. (maybe well, maybe not) There's no need to guess; it's just simple measurements and some trig, and the trig exists as code online.


As for not having the right tools, your best guess with a tape measure will be fine. But I would reccommend a proper truing stand for actually building the wheels.

You know the ERD of your rim.
Measure the diameter of the hub (to the spoke holes).
Measure the the positions of the flanges/lock nuts such that you know how far from center the flanges are.
Know how many spokes you're going to use, and in what pattern.

Now Google "spoke length calculator" and be done.

Anyone telling you what you need without all of the above information is guessing. (maybe well, maybe not) There's no need to guess; it's just simple measurements and some trig, and the trig exists as code online.


As for not having the right tools, your best guess with a tape measure will be fine. But I would reccommend a proper truing stand for actually building the wheels.

I see my reply to this got lost in the last DB crash.

Why would you think I haven't already "Googled spoke length calculator"? More than once.
I've looked at Sheldon Brown's site on the subject as well.

I don't know about your tape measure but mine measures in inches.
Every calculator I've found online -and there are a LOT of 'em, from ridiculously simple to hideously complex- works in mm. Sure I could convert inches to mm but why add an unnecessary degree of uncertainty?

Why would you think I haven't already "Googled spoke length calculator"? More than once.
I've looked at Sheldon Brown's site on the subject as well.

I don't know about your tape measure but mine measures in inches.
Every calculator I've found online -and there are a LOT of 'em, from ridiculously simple to hideously complex- works in mm. Sure I could convert inches to mm but why add an unnecessary degree of uncertainty?

I only meant to be complete, not to imply you couldn't find the calculator. Google or a calculator will also convert 16ths of an inch to mm with more precision than your measurements will have in the first place. My point was that you want to work from actual measurements of your hub & rim, but don't be too concerned about extreme precision. The first time I built wheels, I broke out the calipers, and did everything to some crazy number of decimal places... and then the shop helpfully rounded up to the next multiple of 4mm. If you're in the more typical spoke length range, they'll stock them to every 2mm, but in any case you've got a pretty significant range of acceptable sizes; and only the error in your measurement of hub diameter will have much impact. Get that to within a couple mm, add a mm to the final spoke length and you'll be fine.

SKT, I suspect that your rims are Bontrager Select Disc. If the model of hub is written on the hub somewhere then I have a spreadsheet that will give me the data. For example if the rim is "Bontrager select" then ERD is 604.1..........If the hub is "Bontrager select disc" then the flange diameter is 58mm, the left flange is 34.4 from centerline and the right flange is 20.4 from centerline. For this example only, the spokes would be 293 left and 289 right.

We already know the rim erd but I need to know what hub is in play here to be certain.

That's cool, TooShort... I sound a lot crustier than I really am.
You provided a lot of good info here... I have a little more piece of mind now.
I'm pretty confident I can get things to within a couple of mm.
I actually find mm a LOT easier to read than 1/16ths of an inch. Those little marks get really tiny :lol:

Maxx, that is cool!.
The rim is labeled Ranger, fwiw, but yeah, it's actually labeled with the ERD. How nice... I wish the hub was, too. And speaking of "hub", it's listed as a SuperStock Disc, which is fine except every SuperStock Disc I've seen says it's got 28H. Mine has 32H so who knows what it really is? But seeing how my front spokes are 292mm (maybe 293mm, sure), then your figure of 293mm/289mmm sounds pretty reasonable.
I wish I brought in the rough hub dimensions I took last night, I won't trust my memory at this point.

you can get a tape measure in cm and mm. I got one at the depot.

Your in luck, there is an obscure Bontrager Hub manual on the internet somewhere. (I got the data but lost the web address)

Final calculations are..............................survey says

front left 291.8mm.............front right 292.7 292 both sides was close enough

rear left 292.8mm..............rear right 291.5 293 and 291 sounds right. Bontrager help desk seems to that the details right except for the 6 vs 9 typeo.

Now you can do it yourself and have fun.......:D

Cool beans, daddy :D
Thanks MM...