Framebuilders - Garage build pics, per request. (Long, pics.)

There was a guy here asking for a pic of my ultra-fancy alignment jig, and Bmike has asked for a few pics of my shoestring project too. So here ya go. (I'm no better with a camera than with a torch, so...)

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/framepics001.jpg
The above is a shot of the alignment tool. It's angle iron from Home Depot. The large bolt at the right end is for clamping the bottom bracket shell down. The seat or down tube is inserted into the shell and rests on the screw visible on the left side of the piece. The screw was carefully adjusted until the tube was level and aligned with the bb faces, as determined with a feeler gauge. (Actually just something that happened to fit the gap between the tube and the angle iron. I think it was a Phil Wood bb cartridge tool). The tube is then pinned into the shell (I tried tack brazing and it wasn't as accurate) then the tube/shell is removed from the jig and brazed in a workstand.

Once the down and seat tubes are brazed in, I assemble the head tube and lug onto the down tube, use my wife's granite countertop to ensure alignment with the seat tube and a protractor to get the head angle correct, drill and pin the head tube and lug, and again braze in the workstand. The top tube then drops into place, gets held by a single pin front and back, and brazed. This all works surprisingly well, although the wife isn't thrilled with the whole metal shavings/kitchen floor paradigm.

Rear triangles are a *******. I do the chainstays first, placing them into the shell while the front triangle is in the stand and then inserting the rear wheel. I get the wheel to line up in the chainstays, then place a single pin through the shell and into each stay. I put this pin through the sides, so the stays are sort-of held into place laterally but are free to move vertically. I then run a piece of string from the seat lug down to either end of the rear axle. Using a slipknot, I tighten the string until the chainstays are at the correct vertical angle to the downtube, as lifted from my frame drawing. This involves a great deal of fiddling to get both vertical and lateral alignment correct, but it does work.

I used a lazier method on my first frame, below:
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/framepics004.jpg

I used the same lateral pinning method, but didn't worry about vertical alignment. After finishing the chainstays I popped in a set of wheels and I noticed that the top tube was several degreees from horizontal. The protractor showed that the chainstays were at fault. Coldsetting them by pushing down on the top tube seemed to sort it. After the frame was finished, I noticed that the chainstays hadn't actually moved, and that I had simply pulled the BB shell into an egg shape. Yes, that's 531 and Nervex, and yes, I'm an *******.

That's pretty much the written story. Here are the rest of the pics of my newest frame in various stages of completion. It's at the paint shop now.

Down, seat, and head tubes in place.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/framepics002.jpg

Mocked up with top tube and chainstays in place.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/framepics003.jpg

Ready for prep and paint.
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/framepics006.jpg

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/framepics005.jpg

Questions will be cheerfully and incorrectly answered. :)

Frame looks good.

Confused about this part:
"After finishing the chainstays I popped in a set of wheels and I noticed that the top tube was several degreees from horizontal. The protractor showed that the chainstays were at fault. Coldsetting them by pushing down on the top tube seemed to sort it. After the frame was finished, I noticed that the chainstays hadn't actually moved, and that I had simply pulled the BB shell into an egg shape."

BB shell into an egg shape? What did you do to fix this?

BB shell into an egg shape? What did you do to fix this?

I didn't. That's why that first frame is hanging on a peg and rusting away: it's trash, pretty much.

It occurs to me that the post might not be clear, though. The first pictured frame is the one with the out-of-round BB shell. The other pics show a different frame, which came out fine. :)

Oh, and I spent today making a rear triangle jig out of angle iron and threaded rod, partly because reading the description of the way I've been doing it made it seem even dumber than it already was. :lol:

How do you pin the tubes and lugs together? I've heard of people drilling the two and inserting stainless spokes. What do you use?

Richard Sachs wrote that he uses #50 drill bits and finishing nails. I found both the #50 and #49 to be too small, but maybe that's the idea. Or maybe I've got the wrong nails. At any rate, I nip the heads off the nails and then chuck them into the drill press to taper them with a file while they're spinning.

I've heard of the spoke trick too, esp. with butted spokes. I can't see the reasoning behind spending ten dollars worth of spokes to build a frame, considering how many finishing nails you get in a three dollar box.

I'm a garage builder myself and can say from experience that you can move miles up the food chain if you spend a little money and get yourself an alignment fixture of some sort.

Mine is put together from a piece of ground plate steel, a bottom bracket insert from Joe Bringheli (bringheli.com), and some fabricated parts. Total cost was only a few hundred. That entire mess shown below is threaded into the plate which gives a good platform to align from.

Key is the bottom bracket insert purchased from Joe; keeps that BB shell from turning egg shaped as you learned about (the hard way). Don't feel bad about a setback or two; we learn from our mistakes.

Good luck.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/Picture015.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/Picture021.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/Picture020.jpg

I'm a garage builder myself and can say from experience that you can move miles up the food chain if you spend a little money and get yourself an alignment fixture of some sort.

Mine is put together from a piece of ground plate steel, a bottom bracket insert from Joe Bringheli (bringheli.com), and some fabricated parts. Total cost was only a few hundred. That entire mess shown below is threaded into the plate which gives a good platform to align from.

Key is the bottom bracket insert purchased from Joe; keeps that BB shell from turning egg shaped as you learned about (the hard way). Don't feel bad about a setback or two; we learn from our mistakes.

Good luck.

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/Picture015.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/Picture021.jpg

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m50/Nessism1/Picture020.jpg

how does this work? i see how it fits into the BB, but i'm clueless as to how it aligns things or keeps things together. any pics of this in use?

(from someone who is on the framebuilding fence...)

Hey,

thanks for the pics and info. frame looks good. I'm interested in more info:

-when you finish the rear triangle jig could you post a pic and explain.
-what kind of tubing and lugs did you use and where'd you get them from?
-is it silver brazed?

I'm intent on building my own bike after last one was stolen. Hard finding good reasonbly priced lugged steel in my size. Currently in information consumption stage. Thank you very much for sharing.

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/framepics.jpg

I'm getting a lot of use out of angle iron...

The bb shell bolts to the bit on the left of the pic. The rear dropouts attach to the threaded rod at right, which uses several nuts to hold things in correct aligment relative to the BB. I set the jig up using a factory frame; as long as BB shell width is approximately the same, it should work. I'll post when I've used it.

For the most recent frame I used a mix of tubing; some True Temper (chainstays, fork blades) from Henry James in Redondo Beach, some house brand stuff (.9/.6/.9 main tubes) from Nova Cycles, and some old Columbus seatstays from Ceeway in England. I used Long Shen fleur-de-lis lugs that came from Nova, and Long Shen socket-type dropouts also from Nova. I got the fancy lugs not because I wanted fancy, but because the seat lug that comes with that set is socketed for seatstsays. This makes jigless building a good bit easier, and also allows me to forgo the somewhat difficult (for a newbie, anyway) fillet brazing that can go along with attaching seatstays to seat lug in the traditional way. The problem is that both ends of the seatstays needed to be 10.5 O.D., which is apparently impossible to find in the US, at least in lengths suitable for my 62 cm frame. Hence the seatstay order from England.

And yes, it's silver brazed, with a Bernz-O-Matic torch, no less. I'd actually sort of prefer to use brass, but I'm not willing to invest in oxy-acetylene equipment, and anyway, my HOA forbids it.

FWIW, Nessism is correct, I think, when he says that a good alignment set-up will put me ahead of the game. The trouble is that there's really no end to that particular road, at least for my personality. I could keep improving my set-up until I've got $10,000 of equipment in my garage. But I really am just having a bit of fun and building a few frames for my personal use. For not much more than I've already spent, I could have a "name" frame custom built to my specifications, so continuing to invest in tooling doesn't make much financial sense to me -- especially considering that I'm able to build adequate frames with what I have now. Now, if my time was worth anything... :p

how does this work? i see how it fits into the BB, but i'm clueless as to how it aligns things or keeps things together. any pics of this in use?

(from someone who is on the framebuilding fence...)


The long threaded rod screws into a threaded hole in a 20x30 piece of ground-flat piece of steel. This allows the frame to be suspended parallel to the flat surface. It's easy to measure where the frame is deviating from flat, and because the plate is so sturdy, a little bending action (coldsetting) is all it takes to put things right.

The long threaded rod screws into a threaded hole in a 20x30 piece of ground-flat piece of steel. This allows the frame to be suspended parallel to the flat surface. It's easy to measure where the frame is deviating from flat, and because the plate is so sturdy, a little bending action (coldsetting) is all it takes to put things right.

ahh. i thought it was for fabricating / hold while brazing, welding, etc.

Looks great, I've buildt several frame jigs for people trying to build frames for the first time, I have custom frame jigs I use now, very adjustable and solder freindly.

Well, I'm of two minds on the subject of jigs. On the one hand, it seems like a good, professional quality jig would be a big help. On the other, what I've been doing has actually worked quite well. It does take me a very long time to build a frame, but it's purely hobby and I don't attach any value to my time. (Guess that's why they call it "free time":))

I'm fairly sure that my frames are not held to the half-millimeter tolerance that is expected of top quality work. I cannot detect any error with the tools available to me, though, and I cannot detect any error while riding. If the bike tracks perfectly with hands off the bars, and the wheels fall into the frame without effort and line up perfectly inside the stays/blades, then I do not see a need for closer tolerances. What I don't know about this topic is a lot, though...

I know this thread is a bit old, but hopefully folks are still paying attention...

Six Jours - Did you do your fork with MAPP? I've read that fork crowns are tough that way. Any tips?

Also, I'm not quite clear on your pinning process. You jig it, drill, pound in nails. Then remove everything, apply flux, reassemble, and braze? Did you ever figure out the right drill bit size for the nails (I assume 4d finish nails?)?


(Got my box from Nova yesterday. Starting my first build over Thanksgiving. I do have a nice collection of practice brazes in the basement, though...my wife thinks I'm nuts.)

My first frame jig was really good other than the fact that it wasn't rotateable. I was a milling machine table. You can do just about anything on one of those. It grew into three milling machine tables of different sizes that were locked together and gave control. I don't have it set up at the moment, but maybe I can get it put back together sometime and take some pics. Total cost of the three tables was 275 Canadian. It did take a while to get them together. I still use it as an occasional fork jig and for building wheels, and for fixturing stuff. Unfortunately it is currently just piled high...

I fiddled with nails and bit sizes for a while before contacting Fred Parr for one of his pin kits, which come with bits. I'm afraid my link doesn't work any more, but some Google-Fu should do the trick for you. It was a well-spent $15.

As for the process, I've refined it a bit over the years but am still using fairly simple home built jigs, and I only do one or two joints at a time. I'll line the joint up in the jig, drill it, then remove it form the jig, do the final prep, flux it, pin it, reinstall it in the jig to check alignment, then remove it from the jig and braze. This is a time consuming process but results in a joint that does not need to be cold set (I've really come to the opinion that cold setting is worse than slight misalignment). The only exception to the process is the fork, which I do in the jig. I haven't found a pinning process that effectively holds the precise, multi-plane alignment required by a fork, and to be honest, I don't like drilling a bunch of holes in such a critical loaded area.

Regarding MAPP, the key is that it's a big, soft flame. Best results come from a long, gentle heat soak, bringing everything up to temperature. That's especially true of the fork crown. It's actually quite easy to do; you just have to have patience. If you have big hot and cold spots you'll find that you end up with a real mess. Just take the time to get the flux around the working area glassy and fluid without any burns, and when you apply the silver you'll be happy to see it zoom through the joint.

<edit> Here's the link: http://www.cycledesignusa.com/pinkit.htm. Looks like the price has gone up, but for 20 bucks I'd still do it.

Oh, and a bit of bragging - er, I mean motivation...

http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a101/Noel3006/IMG_0063.jpg

Keep practicing, take your time, and have fun!

I fiddled with nails and bit sizes for a while before contacting Fred Parr for one of his pin kits, which come with bits. I'm afraid my link doesn't work any more, but some Google-Fu should do the trick for you. It was a well-spent $15.

As for the process, I've refined it a bit over the years but am still using fairly simple home built jigs, and I only do one or two joints at a time. I'll line the joint up in the jig, drill it, then remove it form the jig, do the final prep, flux it, pin it, reinstall it in the jig to check alignment, then remove it from the jig and braze. This is a time consuming process but results in a joint that does not need to be cold set (I've really come to the opinion that cold setting is worse than slight misalignment). The only exception to the process is the fork, which I do in the jig. I haven't found a pinning process that effectively holds the precise, multi-plane alignment required by a fork, and to be honest, I don't like drilling a bunch of holes in such a critical loaded area.

Regarding MAPP, the key is that it's a big, soft flame. Best results come from a long, gentle heat soak, bringing everything up to temperature. That's especially true of the fork crown. It's actually quite easy to do; you just have to have patience. If you have big hot and cold spots you'll find that you end up with a real mess. Just take the time to get the flux around the working area glassy and fluid without any burns, and when you apply the silver you'll be happy to see it zoom through the joint.

<edit> Here's the link: http://www.cycledesignusa.com/pinkit.htm. Looks like the price has gone up, but for 20 bucks I'd still do it.

Excellent, thanks for the help. Nice looking bike, too!

This thread is an awesome resource.