Bicycle Mechanics - Frame Life

What is the mileage life expectancy of a steel frame (Columbus TSX tubing on a Pinarello). Discounting other factors (assuming this is a fair weather bike only), if someone says they have 4,000 miles on the frame, is that a non factor in evaluating the value of the bike?

What is the mileage life expectancy of a steel frame (Columbus TSX tubing on a Pinarello). Discounting other factors (assuming this is a fair weather bike only), if someone says they have 4,000 miles on the frame, is that a non factor in evaluating the value of the bike?

Non-factor, assuming the frame hasn't seen a REALLY hard crash. A well-built steel frame will have a nearly infinite lifespan. Be sure to check for rust, bubbled or cracked paint, etc. Light surface rust can be sanded away; you can prime, re-paint and clearcoat the bare metal.

Deep rust, or rust inside the tubes, though is bad news...

Life expectancy-till it rusts away which for all practical purposes, is forever unless you leave the bike outside in the weather. Mileage doesn't matter but obviously he more mielage, the more likely it has been crashed, but a crash that caused any damage is readily apparent.

Even though a fair weather bike, as close as you are to salt water I'd take some tools to remove the seatpost and stem and peer down with a flashlight.

In theory a steel frame can live forever (unlike some other metals *cough* any alloy of aluminum *cough*). In practice, my steel frames have never failed me. One has over 100.000 Km in it (pre-owned steel MTB frame I use as a $hitbike) the other has 20.000 Km. The third one is from 1990 and I don't know for sure, but it must have various tens of thousands of Km on it (also pre-owned, Specialized Allez).

I also have a brand new Redline Monocog 29er which I'll probably leave to my grandchildren. One day.


TO BE HONEST an aluminum frame alloyed with scandium has a very much prolongued fatigue life. But what I wrote above is true: steel CAN, in theory, support a certain amount of compressive or tensile stresses without ANY (=0) plastic deformations. Titanium is the same. Carbon fiber, in a sense, is like that, too. Aluminum isn't. There even the smallest stress will cause SOME crystal structure displacements/plastic deformations.

Steel and Ti frames can last nearly forever if not crashed or abused. I have a Litespeed Ti frame with 70,000 miles and it is still in perfect condition so 4,000 miles is not even broken-in.

I also have an '83 Trek lugged steel frame with God-knows how many miles (I got it used) and it's also perfect.

Aluminum frames, particularly very light, thin wall ones, have a finite fatigue life and are always questionable in used form.

Nishiki frames had a 25 year warranty, but mine look like they'll last at least twice that long.

Nishiki frames had a 25 year warranty, but mine look like they'll last at least twice that long.

Litespeed has a lifetime warranty and will repair a frame for the original owner forever.

I have a custom made columbus sl since 1987 maybe. No problems with him ever. And probably it will last long enough to be used by my kids in a few more years. So such a thing of a lifespan is so relative. For example years ago many italian bikes had failures in their tubes or lugs, since day 1 u knew the bike was going to last 2 or 4 years like for example atala's. A Miyata Dura ace i had (this model never came to the us) used to get craked in the middle of the BB after 6 months, all of them got the same issue so the solution was take the bike straight to a frame builder to get the BB reinforced, repaint and then the frame last forever, after more than 25 years a friend still have his. Alan's were famous for having issues in the their forks. Aluminum Vitus had similar issues and other related with bonding.

Now a days with carbon u can get lifetime warrantee from some brands but only a few brands deos that, for example Pinarello gives you 6 months i believe in their carbon frames, so no wonder why is hard to see Pinarello's moving around.

Thanks.

Total non-factor. People have daily riders with 40 + years on the frame.

I have two 1941 Schwinn chrome moly fillet brazed New Worlds. I ride both of them with regularity. 66 years and still going strong. Roger

Age and rust are much more important (unless there is crash damage). I only say age because you want to take more care checking over a 5 year old frame than a 1 year old one.

I've ridden 4,000 miles in the last 18 months and I'd bet my bike is in better condition than soneone who has ridden 20 miles and left the bike to rot in the garage the rest of the time. Don't worry about distance.

I agree with all of the above UNLESS the bike has been raced.

I once had a chance to ride Brian Walton's spare bike when he rode for Mororola. On the outside everything looked great. When I got out of the saddle it was a noodle. Take it for a quick spin on a less than perfect road and get a feel for how solid the bike still is. If it feels ok it will probably last you for years.

My 1969 Cinelli is still going strong and is way north of 150K miles.

I once had a chance to ride Brian Walton's spore bike

I hope you didn't get a rash on your as*... :D

I once had a chance to ride Brian Walton's spare bike when he rode for Mororola. On the outside everything looked great. When I got out of the saddle it was a noodle.
If the frame was flexy, it was either built that way intentionally or something had cracked. How big was Brian? Pro riders are usually fairly small and light and have a smooth pedaling action. Perhaps you are significantly larger and heavier and his frame was rigid enough for his use but not for yours.

Frames do not "soften" or become more flexible with age and miles. That is an "old wives tale" used by riders to convince their wives or sponsors they need a newer bike but it has no basis in metalurgy. Frames fail by breaking somewhere, they do not soften gradually.

If the frame was flexy, it was either built that way intentionally or something had cracked.

+1
I asked a mechanical engineer friend about this once, and he said basically the same thing. With that being said, you will still have folks who swear a frame has gotten "soft." I remember Dirtdrop saying he once stripped a steel frame of its paint and discovered hairline cracks he wouldn't have known were there otherwise. I suspect something like this scenario is the cause of "soft" frames, either that or it's all in the riders' heads.

+1
I asked a mechanical engineer friend about this once, and he said basically the same thing. With that being said, you will still have folks who swear a frame has gotten "soft." I remember Dirtdrop saying he once stripped a steel frame of its paint and discovered hairline cracks he wouldn't have known were there otherwise. I suspect something like this scenario is the cause of "soft" frames, either that or it's all in the riders' heads.

Thirded. Metal doesn't "go soft".


I once had a chance to ride Brian Walton's spare bike

The "spore" misstyping was so much more fun than this revisionist history here.

I have over 100,000 miles on a Bridgestone RB-1, and probably 35,000 miles on my Ritchey Road logic. It's gonna last.

One other thing:
If you do buy the bike, it wouldn't hurt to clean out the seat tube (a trombone cleaner works great for this, $5 at you local music store) and use some framesaver. I've been told that the seat tube is really the only tube that needs to be sprayed, but if you have a bare frame, it doesn't hurt to spray everywhere you can.

One other thing:
If you do buy the bike, it wouldn't hurt to clean out the seat tube (a trombone cleaner works great for this, $5 at you local music store) and use some framesaver. I've been told that the seat tube is really the only tube that needs to be sprayed, but if you have a bare frame, it doesn't hurt to spray everywhere you can.


Wow, great advice! Would you kindly post it in the "hints 'n' tricks"? Especially the trombone cleaner part is awesome. I'mma gonna buy me a trombone cleaner.

Aluminum frames, particularly very light, thin wall ones, have a finite fatigue life and are always questionable in used form.

So got any aluminum bikes? If so, ride them until you think they are approaching the fatigue limit, then ship them to me. I'll probably get another decade or two of use out of them.

Frame fatigue is an issue that doesn't blip my radar.

Litespeed has a lifetime warranty and will repair a frame for the original owner forever.

What's the fineprint on this deal?

The fine print is Original Owner.

So got any aluminum bikes? If so, ride them until you think they are approaching the fatigue limit, then ship them to me. I'll probably get another decade or two of use out of them.

Frame fatigue is an issue that doesn't blip my radar.
Yep, I have a '92 Trek 1420 bonded Al frame and it's not going to die anytime soon. Most Al frames made for sport and touring use (Trek, Cannondale, etc.) are made plenty durable and will last for decades so I wouldn't worry about them either.

The frames I was refering to are the ultra light, very thin wall competition frames sold strictly for racing. They are made to be light above all else and longevity isn't an issue as they are replaced every racing season. Maybe they will last a lot longer but I wouldn't spend my money finding out.

What's the fineprint on this deal?
As sivat noted, the warranty is good only for the original owner and you better have the sales receipt or have registered the bike with Litespeed when you bought it.

I am very careful to keep all of my sales documentation in good order but, so far, have never needed to use it.

Lucky ? My '89 or so Vitus 979 has seen at least 3k miles in the last 5 years, no telling before that and its still going strong. I'm probably on the upper limit as far as weight for that bike. I weigh 155 and its a 56.

My 24 year old Trek 660 steel road racing bike has over 145,000 miles (not clicks), and there is no rust on or in the frame; the only rust there is on it is one of the crank arm bolt caps as some surface rust on it now, and the both external springs on the brake calipers has some light surface rust.

I agree with the others too, all my bikes are steel and none of mine are rusty, except for one of my MTB's which is beat to hell has spotty surface rust where the paint came off from crashes and running into stuff and I never bothered to touch them up. The secret to preventing rust is to immediately touch up all scratches or where paint has been removed for some reason before the rust starts...but even after rust has started all one has to do is use a real fine emery paper and remove the light rust and touch up. I touched up my other bikes, just not that one MTB.

If the frame was flexy, it was either built that way intentionally or something had cracked. How big was Brian? Pro riders are usually fairly small and light and have a smooth pedaling action. Perhaps you are significantly larger and heavier and his frame was rigid enough for his use but not for yours.

Frames do not "soften" or become more flexible with age and miles. That is an "old wives tale" used by riders to convince their wives or sponsors they need a newer bike but it has no basis in metalurgy. Frames fail by breaking somewhere, they do not soften gradually.

I doubt Brian asked for a frame where the tires rubbed on the chain stays while sprinting. This thing was toast. I didn't ask to remove the paint to find out why.

As for steel becoming soft...I'm sure there are many threads that go back and forth on this one. Funny thing is, like all expert testimony, I have metallurgical "friends" who will beg to differ.

Regardless of which side you fall on this argument, I still think it would be useful to ride the bike on some uneven surfaces and see how sound the bike feels. Kick the tires if you will.

Regardless of which side you fall on this argument, I still think it would be useful to ride the bike on some uneven surfaces and see how sound the bike feels. Kick the tires if you will.

+11onoeoneone

Really, cycling on uneven surfaces, possibly with a few steep hills, will show the state of the frame and the other parts like no other test. That's how I discovered my stem wasn't properly screwed on, yesterday.

+11onoeoneone

Really, cycling on uneven surfaces, possibly with a few steep hills, will show the state of the frame and the other parts like no other test. That's how I discovered my stem wasn't properly screwed on, yesterday.

YIKES. Hope you still have all your teeth (or at least the same number your started the ride with. I know Finns play hockey!).

I doubt Brian asked for a frame where the tires rubbed on the chain stays while sprinting. This thing was toast. I didn't ask to remove the paint to find out why.

As for steel becoming soft...I'm sure there are many threads that go back and forth on this one. Funny thing is, like all expert testimony, I have metallurgical "friends" who will beg to differ.

Regardless of which side you fall on this argument, I still think it would be useful to ride the bike on some uneven surfaces and see how sound the bike feels. Kick the tires if you will.

I respectifully disagree with steel becoming softer from being physically worked.

I have been employed in the metals industry for over 30 years, and have studied ferrous metallurgy at various places including Illinois Institute of Technology. If the welds on this frame were good, the frame would not become softer. Steel work HARDENS when it is cyclically stressed at or near its yield point. The only way to soften 4130/40 (CrMo) is to anneal it, a thermal process.

I'm in the automotive machining business for 30+ years and I agree 100% with the post above.Carbon steels work harden when stressed over long periods of time or with thermal cycling(as long as it doesn't reach it's annealing temp).

I'm in the automotive machining business for 30+ years and I agree 100% with the post above.Carbon steels work harden when stressed over long periods of time or with thermal cycling(as long as it doesn't reach it's annealing temp).

I really didn't want to get into this. It's probably been done to death. But what the heck.

I don't disagree with the physical properties of carbon steels as you both describe them. I think what is happening when people describe steel frames becoming softer is is more akin to what someone described previously - micro cracks appearing under the paint. In short, the stuff is in the process of failing. The integrity of the TUBE is coming into question resulting in, what feels like, a softening.

When machine testing is done on parts one of the measurements of the amount of force needed to deflect a part a particular distance (as an example). How else can we explain that the amount of force needed to flex a carbon steel part the same distance decreases as it approaches failure. I would be interested to hear your comments on this.

I The only way to soften 4130/40 (CrMo) is to anneal it, a thermal process.
Even then, the Young's Modulus ("Stiffness") won't change.

In short, the stuff is in the process of failing. The integrity of the TUBE is coming into question resulting in, what feels like, a softening.

When machine testing is done on parts one of the measurements of the amount of force needed to deflect a part a particular distance (as an example). How else can we explain that the amount of force needed to flex a carbon steel part the same distance decreases as it approaches failure. I would be interested to hear your comments on this.

Exactly. If a steel frame becomes more flexiable under identical load, and after cycles of stress, it is in the process of failing, either at a (failing) weld, or in the parent material. This microfracturing can lead to total failure as the fractures expand. As an aside, and totally off subject, aircraft components cannot be punched, sheared, or laser cut because punching/shearing can introduce microfractures, and laser cutting induces a heat effected zone which can imbrittle the part. Therefore, aircraft parts are generally milled or waterjet cut.

Even then, the Young's Modulus ("Stiffness") won't change.

Aaaahhh, the damn Young's modulus.... I somehow managed to derive the formulas for my homework assignment today at the uni, without using the Young's modulus for silicon. That cost me 2 or 3 points. You're rubbing salt into that wound.



As an aside, and totally off subject, aircraft components cannot be punched, sheared, or laser cut because punching/shearing can introduce microfractures, and laser cutting induces a heat effected zone which can imbrittle the part. Therefore, aircraft parts are generally milled or waterjet cut.

Thank you very much for that note. Truly interesting! Please feel free to drop tidbits like this, around, I'll be grateful.

Exactly. If a steel frame becomes more flexiable under identical load, and after cycles of stress, it is in the process of failing, either at a (failing) weld, or in the parent material. This microfracturing can lead to total failure as the fractures expand. As an aside, and totally off subject, aircraft components cannot be punched, sheared, or laser cut because punching/shearing can introduce microfractures, and laser cutting induces a heat effected zone which can imbrittle the part. Therefore, aircraft parts are generally milled or waterjet cut.

Interesting tidbit.

So, to the person riding the steel frame that is in the "process" of failing, it will feel like the metal is becoming softer. This of course is a false conclusion but it does explain the sensation the rider has.

Would you agree with this assessment?

Interesting tidbit.

So, to the person riding the steel frame that is in the "process" of failing, it will feel like the metal is becoming softer. This of course is a false conclusion but it does explain the sensation the rider has.

If it's a steel frame, it is certainly possible that this could be the sensation prior to total failure. Lucky for me, I haven't experienced this, but perhaps others on this forum have. Steel frames are pretty durable. Of course the sensation the rider might feel would depend upon several factors, depending upon where and what type of failure is occuring. To simulate this type of failure, bend a coat hanger several times and note the sensation as it approaches fracture. Aluminum tends to fail much more dramatically.

Would you agree with this assessment?

Suggest you read Kelly's article, here>>>

http://www.sv.vt.edu/classes/MSE2094_NoteBook/97ClassProj/anal/kelly/fatigue.html

I recall the story of 7/11's Steve Bauer who, in an air terminal, discovered his bike's chain & seat stays had been bent in shipment. He leaned down, braced with a foot, and pulled things back into near-alignment.

Don't know what the relevance is , but a kool story.

There is such a thing as frame fatigue on metal bikes.
Broke the frame on our Reynolds 531 DB tandem @ 50,000 miles and again at 56,000 miles. Sold it with 64,000 on the odo.
On another tandem broke the 531 fork @ 15,000 miles, frame lasted 56,000 before we sold it.
Agree that a tandem takes much more stress than a single bike, but metal does fatigue.