Road Bike Racing - Rolf wheels in racing - am I not seeing them?

Hello -

Just an inquiry... I haven't seen any teams, or pros, using the Rolf wheels (read: minimal spokes) on their set-ups. Is there are particular reason for this, or is it just 'sponsorship' ?

Can you show examples of racers using Rolf wheels?

Thanks.

I think by now many people are coming to the realization that paired spoking sucks. It didn't make sense the first time they tried it in like 1902, and it doesn't make sense now.

yeah. rolf wheels kinda sorta actually blow goats.

in real world use...goats...

they be blown.

... that what I was thinking, but just wondering if it I was missing something. So then, why does Rolf continue to mfg and market their paired spoke wheels? For OCP's ??

Bontrager seems to be okay with it.

People only pay attention to overall wheelweight, which is why people buy Rolfs'. nevermind the fact that the rims are heavy as sh*t, just as long as the overall weight is down.

I think by now many people are coming to the realization that paired spoking sucks. It didn't make sense the first time they tried it in like 1902, and it doesn't make sense now.

Really?

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2007/tour07/tour0716/fs048.jpg

Huh.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/tech/?id=/tech/2007/features/tour_lance_bikes07

Coulda fooled me. Seems like they work OK.

Let me save you the trouble (see below)

Coulda fooled me. Seems like they work OK.



Sure, they're fine if you have a wheel car following you around because they constantly explode for no reason and Levi woulda won if he been on 40 spoke wood rims.

Sure, they're fine if you have a wheel car following you around because they constantly explode for no reason and Levi woulda won if he been on 40 spoke wood rims.

They won the TDF for chrissakes! Are you that big a tool that you're going to discount that? That's IT. I'm outta here.

Sure, they're fine if you have a wheel car following you around because they constantly explode for no reason and Levi woulda won if he been on 40 spoke wood rims.
I wouldn't say that, but do you think that every member of Discovery hand picked Trek to make their bikes? Pro's ride what they're given, even Lance. And how bad would it look if Bontrager and Rolf both ditched paired spoking altogether wihthout issuing a statement? Or worse, with a statement?

People only pay attention to overall wheelweight, which is why people buy Rolfs'. nevermind the fact that the rims are heavy as sh*t, just as long as the overall weight is down.

Is 370 heavy for the Elan Aero? Or are you doing a South Park and weighing your excrement for comparison to Rolf's products?

How about this?

http://www.rolfwheels.com/tech/images/comparison_chart_sm.gif

You might want to do a little research before you start chiming in.


Pro's ride what they're given, even Lance.

Incorrect as to Lance, Boonen, and a bunch of other examples I could point out where the top guys did what they wanted. Do a little reading.

Pro's ride what they're given, even Lance.

Don't read much, do you?

Don't read much, do you?

Racer Ex seems to have a twin these days...

Mods?

I guess not, because I've never seen Lance on anything but a Trek when he was on Discovery*.




*Besides the time he rode the Litespeed Blade, which I think was owned by Trek at the time.





Is 370 heavy for the Elan Aero? How about this?

http://www.rolfwheels.com/tech/images/comparison_chart_sm.gif

You might want to do a little research before you start chiming in.
Thank God you gave me some claimed rim weights. Thank you.

*Besides the time he rode the Litespeed Blade, which I think was owned by Trek at the time.

Funny on so many levels, yet sad*.

*And by funny, of course, I mean wrong.

Really?

Here's what Lance rides in the mountains when he doesn't have a wheel truck following him. This is the bike he was riding during his 2006 Giro visit, unsupported:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/news/may06/may12news/LanceGiro1-06.jpg

Haha, nice RX! I dunno if paired spoke wheels are good or not, but I still see a lot of them, and they still win races, so they can't be *that* bad (if they're bad at all).

My whole drawback to them is that the only (major) manufactures are Bontrager and Rolf. If one of them wants to give me the deal Mavic gave me, I'm down...

Here's what Lance rides in the mountains when he doesn't have a wheel truck following him. This is the bike he was riding during his 2006 Giro visit, unsupported:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2006/news/may06/may12news/LanceGiro1-06.jpg

That's also the bike that Lance rides when he doesn't care how long it takes him to get to the top, by the way.

I don't know about Pro team sponsorships, but a lot of riders use Rolf wheels in my area (probably because they are local). The Vigors are supposed to be really bomber, they are light, and also more aero than most clinchers of their weight. I know several people that really love Rolf wheels.

I guess not, because I've never seen Lance on anything but a Trek when he was on Discovery*.

*Besides the time he rode the Litespeed Blade, which I think was owned by Trek at the time.

Thank God you gave me some claimed rim weights. Thank you.

To summarize this thread:

Paired spokes suck.

Because no pro teams use them even though they do. Or did.

They suck because the rims are heavy as (I quote) s***, though there is no evidence to support this and evidence to the contrary.

Claimed weights are wrong, because I said so, invoked god, and was not smote down.

Bontrager et al have put this inferior product out there for years, because they are afraid of making some kind of statement that they are switching to something better, but more afraid of not making a statement and just switching.

They put their TDF riders on this inferior product

Lance, Alberto, and Levi are stuck with riding them

Lance knows they are no good because he doesn't use them on one of his training bikes, but he has to use them in the Tour De France.

And he would have used a saddlebag at the TDF if they had let him.

Lance had no input on what he rode, nor does any other professional racer.

All the above riders win or podium on inferior "sucky" wheels at the Tour De France.

Therefor it's abundantly clear that these wheels have heavy rims and suck.

Fabulous. Got it.

Just because there's no loss in performance doesn't make the wheels better. Rolf and Bontrager went around the long way to arrive at the same point. They are more expensive to maintain and less durable. They are solving a problem that doesn't exist.

Given the selection of wheels Lance has at his fingertips, why do you think he put those 32-spokers on there to go climb in the mountains?

If you want to see some intelligent wheel design, look at the Campy/Fulcrum rear wheels with the triplet lacing. That solves the problem of uneven DS and NDS tension, while providing a slightly lighter wheel. Brilliant solution.

Pairing spokes is supposed to allow you build a lighter wheel with fewer spokes at higher tension. Sounds good on paper, but is rarely realized. How many of the paired spoke wheels out there actually end up being any lighter than other race wheels?

Pro's ride what they're given, even Lance.

I'm sure you will think this supports your point since they are not paired but, nobody gets these for free*.
*zabel, a euro development team and unibet getting hooked up as of last year
http://grahamwatson.com/2001/tdswiss/update1/tds/image17.jpg http://grahamwatson.com/2002/tdf/tdf6/tdf6/23.jpg

I have some old school Rolf Vector Comps. They are heavy but I have no problems with them or paired spokes. I will probably buy Rolf Elans next. 1300g aluminum clincher can't beat it. I have hit some large pot holes too w/o incident on my Vectors.

I'll be sure and post a review of the Rolf Tdf38 I picked up at a price I couldn't pass up (even if they suck). It might take a while, as I am sitting on them till next season though.

They are heavy though at ~1100 grams. My Mavic Carbones SL was ~100 grams lighter than that. Of course, those weights are for a set VS a rear wheel, respectively. :)

I have some old school Rolf Vector Comps. They are heavy but I have no problems with them or paired spokes. I will probably buy Rolf Elans next. 1300g aluminum clincher can't beat it. I have hit some large pot holes too w/o incident on my Vectors.

WeightWeenies shows the Vecor Comp at 2015 with rim tape, so 1985g, which is as heavy as my 32h/36h Ultegra Deep Vs. Even if yours are different somehow, there are sub 1300g clinchers readily available. They're easy to custom build for $600-$700, and the AC Sprint350 costs $600 at 1250g.


I'll be sure and post a review of the Rolf Tdf38 I picked up at a price I couldn't pass up (even if they suck). It might take a while, as I am sitting on them till next season though.

They are heavy though at ~1100 grams. My Mavic Carbones SL was ~100 grams lighter than that. Of course, those weights are for a set VS a rear wheel, respectively. :)

Reynolds Stratus CF tubular, $1500, 1070g. If you rocked a great deal on them, then the balance can shift...

I don't see the value proposition of paired spoking. There's no weight difference. Durability is arguable, but depends greatly on maintenance. Truing requires a special jig to reach these higher tensions without stripping or breaking something, and a rebuild requires shipment back to the manufacturer (for Rolfs).

I'm riding my RaceXXXLites daily, I'll let you know the first time I have to true them. (1650 miles and counting)

I'm riding my RaceXXXLites daily, I'll let you know the first time I have to true them. (1650 miles and counting)

If they're as durable as marketed, I better not hear from you for another 8500 miles.

I have a set of Vigor SL's that I raced and trained on all spring and summer....probably around 5,000 miles or more. Only trued them once and that was because I hit a nasty sinkhole. Even then they were only slightly out of true. Conversely....I have a set of 32 spoke Mavic Open Pros with around the same miles on them that are shot. They creak....slip out of true every few rides and the ferrells are pulling out of the rim.

I have a set of Vigor SL's that I raced and trained on all spring and summer....probably around 5,000 miles or more. Only trued them once and that was because I hit a nasty sinkhole. Even then they were only slightly out of true. Conversely....I have a set of 32 spoke Mavic Open Pros with around the same miles on them that are shot. They creak....slip out of true every few rides and the ferrells are pulling out of the rim.

Rolf Prima claims their wheels are "optimized for for durability," which to me, would mean they wouldn't be out of true for 10k-15k miles, and should be in service for 30k miles. I would expect they could take a pothole hit, but our standards for durability are pretty low, I think. I beat the hell out of potholes during my commute on my Deep-Vs and it never affects them.

I agree with you on the Open Pros. You'll never see me praising Open Pros as a durable rim. I've beat the hell out of a few of them and finally stopped building with them. They're even worse if they aren't really well built, and any of the bargain sets on the market that I've tested have had extremely uneven spoke tension. For that $200 price point, it's a good deal for the parts (although I dislike straight-gauge spokes), but they need to be detensioned, spoke-line adjusted, retensioned, and stress relieved. The prebuilt sets are pretty much just nice packaging for the parts :)

Rolf Prima claims their wheels are "optimized for for durability," which to me, would mean they wouldn't be out of true for 10k-15k miles, and should be in service for 30k miles. I would expect they could take a pothole hit, but our standards for durability are pretty low, I think. I beat the hell out of potholes during my commute on my Deep-Vs and it never affects them.


Actually...they have taken a lot of hits. This was just the straw that broke the camel's back so to speak.

Yeah, I know they aren't frail wheels. It's just that there's all this handwaving they do regarding paired spoking, patents, higher tensions, greater durability, and lighter weights. What you end up with is a wheel that has normal durability, normal weight (for its "class"), that costs more than comparable wheels, and is more difficult to maintain (because of the higher tensions).

OK, Senor rockets, what's your logic against the paired spoke, anyways?

OK, Senor rockets, what's your logic against the paired spoke, anyways?

Adds no value (wieght, aerodynamic, durability, price), leaves large spans of rim unsupported, requires higher spoke tension which requires higher rim strength so you don't crack the spoke holes (which has been a problem for some models), as well as stronger hub flanges (which have also failed on some models).

Then there's the special jig needed to relieve spoke tension when adjusting the spokes, otherwise the nipples will round-out. For people who are maintaining their own paired wheels, if you can adjust the nipples yourself, the wheel is probably undertensioned, and should be sent in for maintenance.

It's not like I hate all innovation in lacing patterns, it just has to add value. As I said above, I really like the 2DS/1NDS spoke pattern used by Fulcrum/Campy in these wheels:
http://www.chicagolandbicycle.com/images/racing_zero_wheels.jpg

While this lacing pattern does not make a lighter or less expensive wheel, it will make the wheel significantly more durable than other designs with the same number of spokes. It's a subtle visual change, but a leap in engineering.

I also like other approaches to eliminating the DS/NDS tension difference, like radial drive-side, and even Rolf's own oversized DS hub flange is a great idea.

Paired spoking is just fashion masquerading around as engineering. :)

I'm riding my RaceXXXLites daily, I'll let you know the first time I have to true them. (1650 miles and counting)

Now go 10x that far and you'll be approaching the durability of my Mavic Ksyrium ES wheels. I'll talk to you in 3-5 years.

Mileage durabliity is overrated. I only ride 3,000 miles a year. By the time I get 12,000 miles from a wheel I'm ready for new ones anyway. I wouldn't complain if I got 10K.

While this lacing pattern does not make a lighter or less expensive wheel, it will make the wheel significantly more durable than other designs with the same number of spokes. It's a subtle visual change, but a leap in engineering.
:)

and your basing this off of...?

and your basing this off of...?

A rear wheel on a geared bike is dished. If the number of spokes are symmetrical between NDS and DS, then the NDS spokes will be at a MUCH lower tension than the DS spokes. This makes the NDS spokes more prone to fatigue since they get closer to going slack with every bump, and it also makes the DS spokes more prone to fatigue just by allowing more movement between the rim and hub.

If you cut the NDS spoke count in half, then the NDS spoke tensions double. This overcorrects slightly, but does bring the whole wheel into the recommended tension range, more like the front wheel. Now the NDS spokes are not going anywhere near slack tension, and the DS spokes are just as safe from that as they are in a symmetrical build. Additionally, the wheel is stiffer because of a more consistent tension from the NDS spokes, so the rim vs. hub displacement is greatly reduced.

You get a simlar effect from designs that have a radial DS, because the spoke is approaching from closer to the rim, but further out, giving the DS spokes more leverage. This means the NDS spokes have to be at a higher tension to compensate, and the overall tension in the wheel is more balanced. This is one of the reasons the Ksyrium ES, as mentioned by Pcad, is so durable.

Rolf's high DS flange is another approach to solving this problem, by giving the DS spokes more leverage, and it does help.

Nothing makes as big of a difference as 1/2 count on the NDS though.

Mileage durabliity is overrated. I only ride 3,000 miles a year..

I ride a ton of miles (more than I did 10+ years ago) and I'm amazed @ the durability of the Mavic Kysirium design. That is important for those of us who are not wussy.

I ride a ton of miles (more than I did 10+ years ago) and I'm amazed @ the durability of the Mavic Kysirium design. That is important for those of us who are not wussy.

I got 4 years and 10k+ miles out of my first set of Ks. Same for my first set of SLs...

That includes training, racing, cyclocross and generally abusing the sh*t out of them....

I'm one my second set of SLs (SL3) and haven't touched them in a year of ownership.

Now go 10x that far and you'll be approaching the durability of my Mavic Ksyrium ES wheels. I'll talk to you in 3-5 years.

OK. My Bontrager Race X Lite Aeros have 17K miles. Still going strong. I've seen people race cyclocross on the same set. I was told that the Race X Lite Aeros are a descendent of the old Vector Pros, which also had a reputation for longevity.

I don't think paired/non-paired really makes a difference. There are durable and fragile wheels of both varieties. That suggests to me that it's all a wash. The one thing I will say is that it bothers me that my wheels are *only* compatible with the original rim. If they ever do need maintenance, I'm tied into Bontrager, whereas if the hub was, say, 24 hole non-paired, I'd have lots of options.

I ride a ton of miles (more than I did 10+ years ago) and I'm amazed @ the durability of the Mavic Kysirium design. That is important for those of us who are not wussy.
I am thinking about trading up from the Elite to ES. I'm about worried about the carbon front hub though.

Now go 10x that far and you'll be approaching the durability of my Mavic Ksyrium ES wheels. I'll talk to you in 3-5 years.
Good wheels are good wheels. I do computer work for a shop and we dont get any higher % of repairs on the bontragers then we do any other brand (we sell a crap-load of treks). I know and ride with many guys that ride race x lites and xxx lites that put in 6k to 12k a year without issue.

My xxx are almost 3 months old (went on new Merckx AXM) they replaced a pair of xlites that have 10+k on em. So, run what ya brung and enjoy!

I am thinking about trading up from the Elite to ES. I'm about worried about the carbon front hub though.

These have been discounted greatly last few weeks, as have SSC-SL's.

WeightWeenies shows the Vecor Comp at 2015 with rim tape, so 1985g, which is as heavy as my 32h/36h Ultegra Deep Vs. Even if yours are different somehow, there are sub 1300g clinchers readily available. They're easy to custom build for $600-$700, and the AC Sprint350 costs $600 at 1250g.


I know they are heavy. Did you not see me say that in my original post? 2015g is ridiculous. Thats why the Elans are on my to do list at 1300g. BTW have you ever thought about the aerodynamic advantages of less spokes spinning?

I know they are heavy. Did you not see me say that in my original post? 2015g is ridiculous. Thats why the Elans are on my to do list at 1300g. BTW have you ever thought about the aerodynamic advantages of less spokes spinning?

Yeah, I misread your Vector Comp post. The Elan is a light wheel, but it's not exceptional. There are other AL clincher options in that price range with comparable weights, including custom handbuilt.

Certainly more spokes = more drag, but paired spokes also mean more drag because of the turbulence from the leading spoke. There used to be drag numbers on Rolf's site that even showed that wheels with closer pairings had higher drag.

I'm not picking on spoke counts in this thread, I'm picking on pairings, but a 14h Rolf with the same rim profile will have no better drag numbers than a 16h evenly-spaced wheel.

Reynolds Stratus CF tubular, $1500, 1070g. If you rocked a great deal on them, then the balance can shift...


Wow, that's a great price for what seems like really good wheels. But yeah, I'm still very happy with the deal I got.

You can buy the ES's for $700 per set @ Colo Cyclist. Great deal. They are utterly, completely, mind-numbingly bulletproof. Do NOT use degreaser to clean them, the 'anodization' is paint and it comes off like it's on a cheap Chinese toy. Otherwise phenomenal wheels.

The only wheels I've ever owned that never needed any truing ever were my Rolf Vector Comps. And that was in my 225# days.

The only wheels I've ever owned that never needed any truing ever were my Rolf Vector Comps. And that was in my 225# days.

:) I'd hope so, it's the 5th heaviest wheel on weightweenies