A 17-year-old Incline Village man who hit and killed a cyclist early Thursday evening most likely isn’t at fault, police officials said Friday.
According to the Washoe County Sheriff’s office, Lloyd W. Clarke, a 43-year-old Maryland native, was riding down hill on Country Club Drive at a high rate of speed when a pick up truck driven by the 17 year old pulled into the intersection of Country Club and Village Boulevard. Clarke was unable to stop, and he struck the side of the truck.
Deputies from the Incline Village Substation arrived on scene at about 6:55 p.m. Thursday. Clark was pronounced dead by Careflight medical staff on scene.
The 17 year old’s name isn’t being released because he is a juvenile.
“He was real cooperative, and we don’t expect to have any issues with him,” said Brooke Keast, public information officer with Washoe County Sheriff’s Department. “It looked like the cyclist was going too fast. It’s so hilly up there that sometimes you might not be able to stop.”
Washoe County Sheriff’s Office Major Accident Investigation Team is investigating the accident, along with Washoe County Forensic Investigation Services.
Capt. Steve Kelly, commander at the Washoe County sheriff’s Office Incline Village Substation, said Clark’s autopsy was performed Thursday. Kelly said it could take two weeks for a further investigation and a discussion about the accident with the district attorney’s office to see if the juvenile could face charges.
“Tentatively, it looks like the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit,” Kelly said. “If you know that part of town, you know it’s pretty steep there. If speed was the main contributing factor the juvenile most likely isn’t to blame.”
Blue Order
10-11-07, 06:19 PM
Officials stress cycling awareness after tragic accident (http://www.tahoebonanza.com/article/20070928/NEWS/109280065)
Kevin MacMillan
bonanza staff writer, kmacmillan@tahoebonanza.com
September 28, 2007
Area officials are hoping last week's fatal cycling accident in Incline Village can serve as an unfortunate reminder to drivers and cyclists as to the rules of the road.
On Thursday, Sept. 20, Lloyd W. Clarke, a Hagerston, Md. native, was riding a bicycle southbound on Country Club Drive when a northbound pick up truck driven by a 17-year-old Incline man turned left into the intersection of Country Club Drive and Village Boulevard. Clarke was unable to stop, and he struck the side of the truck. He was pronounced dead shortly after Washoe County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene at about 6:55 p.m.
Preliminary reports from the Washoe County Sheriff's Office said Clarke most likely was exceeding the speed limit, and by the time he saw the truck turning into his path, it was too late for him to stop.
Capt. Steve Kelly, commander of the WCSO Incline Village Substation, said his office has received phone calls from upset citizens, asking why the juvenile driver isn't being blamed for the accident. Additionally, numerous comments submitted by Clarke's friends and family to the North Lake Tahoe Bonanza and on www.tahoebonanza.com have said Clarke was falsely accused.
Kelly said the ongoing investigation, which could be finished next week, may or may not reveal additional facts that could lead to charges against the driver. However, he stressed it was an unfortunate accident in which no one should be blamed.
The speed limit on Country Club is 35 mph. At the intersection, there are stop signs on Village Boulevard, but not on Country Club Drive. Country Club Drive is a winding road on a steep incline. When driving south, because of a curve, the Village intersection isn't visible until one is about 20 to 30 yards from it.
While Kelly couldn't comment extensively on what happened because of the ongoing investigation, he said a couple of factors probably led to the unfortunate accident.
"One thing I will say - the fact of the matter is, if we find he was exceeding the speed limit in a low-light situation, how do you expect the driver to see him?" Kelly said. "It was dark. It was probably hard for the driver to see him, he had no lights on the bicycle and he probably was not familiar with the area. Now obviously, I don't think it was a deliberate attempt to disregard the law. We don't have a final finding yet, but those are possible reasons why."
As tragic as last week's incident is, Kelly said it can serve as a catalyst for increased bicycle awareness.
Kelly said a common misconception by many people is cyclists are given the same right-of-way privileges as pedestrians.
According to Nevada Revised Statute 484.504, "every person riding a bicycle upon a roadway has all of the rights and is subject to all of the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle.
"(Cyclists) have to obey the speed limit, they have to signal, they can't be driving drunk, they have to do everything you would do when driving a car," Kelly said. "Just because somebody's on a bicycle doesn't mean they're automatically not at fault."
Chuck Allen, a trooper for the Nevada Highway Patrol, shared similar thoughts with Kelly.
"Mostly you see bikes riding the wrong way, not stopping at stop signs - they fail to abide by laws motorists abide by," Allen said. "I think there might be a vision put there that cyclists feel exempt from traffic laws."
According to NHP statistics, 10 cyclists were killed in Nevada last year, two of which happened in Washoe County. But in 2007, as of Monday's numbers, 10 already have occurred this year, three of which, including last week's accident in Incline Village, have taken place in Washoe County.
Allen said people have to be more careful - that includes cyclists and drivers.
"If cyclists are moving fast enough, they have every right to ride in traffic. There's nothing wrong with that," Allen said. "People just have to be aware. Cyclists too, because they have to stop at every stop sign and signal, even though a lot probably don't."
Laurie Anne Grimes, who heads the Bicycle and Pedestrian Safety division of the Nevada Office of Traffic Safety, said awareness needs to be raised about cycling safety.
The problem with trying to do that, she said, is most adults don't care.
"We would love to try a safety program so people can learn, but the problem is that we've become a vehicular society, unfortunately, and bikes get overlooked," Grimes said. "But adults don't want to go to a bicycle education class."
It's unfortunate, Grimes said, because the logistics of a bicycle versus vehicle collision are startling.
"There's so many SUVs on the road these days. That's thousands of pounds on top of you," she said. "It's common sense. If you think about it, weight times speed equals force. And there's a lot of force because you're looking at thousands of pounds versus a few hundred pounds. Do that math."
Kelly said he used to teach a cycling safety class among police officers. He said he always told his students the importance of following traffic laws as a cyclist. He said a common statistic he still tells people is fewer than 20 percent of cyclists use hand signals at intersections to inform drivers of their actions.
Something that perpetuates the problem is the lack of laws being enforced, Kelly said.
"I'm not saying my office, but generally you don't see officers enforcing traffic laws on cyclists," Kelly said. "You can actually be arrested. In Nevada, traffic laws are a misdemeanor. There's no exception for age either. Obviously, if a five-year-old isn't signaling, we're going to talk with the parents to make sure the problem gets fixed."
Kelly said another problem is, while many people might know they're supposed to come to complete stops and are supposed to make traffic signals, they don't want to be embarrassed.
"A lot of people may know the culture, they just think it's geeky," Kelly said. "But it's better to be geeky than to be dead."
In reality, Kelly, Grimes and Allen said probably not much can be done to convince people to fully change their ways. But, in light of last week's tragic events, they hope people will at least listen.
Blue Order
10-11-07, 06:21 PM
Cycling investigation to take more time (http://www.tahoebonanza.com/article/20071007/NEWS/110070045)
Kevin MacMillan
BONANZA STAFF WRITER, kmacmillan@tahoebonanza.com
October 7, 2007
An investigation into a Sept. 20 bicycle versus pedestrian accident in Incline Village that killed Maryland native Lloyd Clarke could take one to two more weeks, the sheriff's office said Friday.
Originally, it was reported that the investigation led by the Washoe County Sheriff's Office Major Accident Investigation Team and Washoe County Forensic Investigation Services could take about two weeks following the accident.
However, Capt. Steve Kelly, commander at the Washoe County Sheriff's Office Incline Village Substation, said investigators are performing blood tests, a process that always takes additional time.
Because there usually are numerous investigations on the Washoe County forensic docket, blood testing is done on a case-by-case basis.
"I spoke with the sergeant in charge of the case - they're waiting for blood tests before they come to a final conclusion," he said. "They're looking at all alcohol and drug categories. They have to eliminate all those options."
While Kelly said he still is waiting on the official investigation, he said it could come to a "convoluted conclusion," which may not include the entire logistics of the accident, he said.
According the sheriffs office, Clarke, a Hagerston, Md. native, was riding a bicycle southbound in the early evening of Sept. 20 on Country Club Drive when a northbound pick-up truck driven by a 17-year-old Incline man turned left into the intersection of Country Club Drive and Village Boulevard. Clarke was unable to stop, and hit the side of the truck. He was pronounced dead shortly after deputies arrived on the scene at 6:55 p.m.
Clarke was in Incline Village on business with ILOG, a worldwide software company, which has an office in Incline Village.
Initially, after the accident, the sheriff's office reported that the driver was "most likely" not at fault.
The 17-year-old's name is being withheld because he is a juvenile.
"Tentatively, it looks like the cyclist was exceeding the speed limit," Kelley told the Bonanza Sept. 23. "If you know that part of town, you know it's pretty steep there. If speed was the main contributing factor than the juvenile most likely isn't to blame."
However, Clarke's family members and friends have voiced concerns about the accident.
The North Lake Tahoe Bonanza has also fielded many phone calls, e-mails and comments on tahoebonanza.com.
Richard Cushwa, president of the Cumberland Valley Cycling Club, the club that Clarke belonged to in Maryland, said it was hard to believe Clarke could have been speeding and careless.
"Those of us who rode with Lloyd know that he was an experienced, skilled cyclist who didn't take risks," Cushwa wrote in an e-mail. "We who rode with him know that he was capable of riding in the mountains safely.
Cushwa also wrote that Clarke would have been used to riding in uneven terrain.
"Topographical maps indicate that the grade where he was killed was between 8 and 9 percent," Cushwa said. "Lloyd and the rest of us who ride in western Maryland are used to riding steeper grades safely. Our mountains are not as high as your mountains, but tend to be steeper."
Once the investigation is complete, Kelly said the Major Accident nvestigation Team will issue an official press release, wrapping up the investigation and its conclusions.
cooker
10-11-07, 06:25 PM
Well Mr McMillan is a poor writer...first he says "A 17-year-old Incline Village man who hit and killed a cyclist early Thursday evening ...". However, later it says the cyclist hit the side of the truck in an intersection. So it becomes a question of whether the cyclist was speeding recklessly, or the driver turned across his path without an adequate gap. Without us knowing that, we're only guessing at who is at fault.
Dchiefransom
10-11-07, 11:07 PM
If the sight line is only 30 yards for somenoe pulling out, and the speed limit is 35 mph, how can any vehicle stop in time to avoid hitting another vehicle pulling out onto the road? I don't think a car can do that even on level pavement, which would include reaction time.
filtersweep
10-11-07, 11:43 PM
Chuck Allen, a trooper for the Nevada Highway Patrol, shared similar thoughts with Kelly.
"Mostly you see bikes riding the wrong way, not stopping at stop signs - they fail to abide by laws motorists abide by," Allen said. "I think there might be a vision put there that cyclists feel exempt from traffic laws."
Mostly? You know they are giving this a fair shake when the overgeneralize like this. :rolleyes:
Helmet Head
10-12-07, 01:04 AM
[ He was pronounced dead shortly after Washoe County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene at about 6:55 p.m.
Sunset was at 6:47pm. Here is the intersection (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Country+Club+Drive+and+Village+Boulevard,+incline+village,+ca&sll=32.8418,-117.269453&sspn=0.008455,0.020728&ie=UTF8&ll=39.264266,-119.943328&spn=0.001948,0.005182&t=h&z=18&om=1).
"One thing I will say - the fact of the matter is, if we find he was exceeding the speed limit in a low-light situation, how do you expect the driver to see him?" Kelly said. "It was dark. It was probably hard for the driver to see him, he had no lights on the bicycle and he probably was not familiar with the area.
There are a lot of trees here, a blind curve, it was right about at sunset, the cyclist had no light, and was probably keeping right, which, if you look at how the road is curved, you'll see how that shortens the sight lines even more.
dobber
10-12-07, 05:16 AM
Well Mr McMillan is a poor writer...first he says "A 17-year-old Incline Village man who hit and killed a cyclist early Thursday evening ...".
Christ on a crutch..........
why2not
10-12-07, 05:58 AM
#1 - What % of bike car accidents resulting in death of cyclist result in there being a ticket issued? How does that compare to car/car accidents involving a death?
#1a- If the driver had turned into the path of an oncoming car, would he have been ticketed?
#2 - Blood tests for drugs/alcohol? We already know the driver was "let go", so the only one they could be testing is the (dead) cyclist. It seems that they're searching for reasons not to blame the driver.
#3 - What proof do they have that the cyclist was exceeding 35MPH? The obvious answer is none, so why do they make that assumption?
#4 -
"If cyclists are moving fast enough, they have every right to ride in traffic. So if they're not "going fast enough, they don't have a right to ride in traffic?
#5 - Chuck Allen, a trooper for the Nevada Highway Patrol, shared similar thoughts with Kelly.
"Mostly you see bikes riding the wrong way, not stopping at stop signs - they fail to abide by laws motorists abide by," Allen said. "I think there might be a vision put there that cyclists feel exempt from traffic laws."
The assumption is that the cyclist must have been breaking some law, because <most> cyclists do.
It seems the police department has a very biased view of the accident & I'm not sure that they are competent to set their biases aside & determine what happened. Unfortunately, I'm sure that this is the case around the country (see #1).
I-Like-To-Bike
10-12-07, 05:59 AM
...and was probably keeping right, which, if you look at how the road is curved, you'll see how that shortens the sight lines even more.
...And probably, here comes the hyperbolic wall of words, macabre speculation and pimping of HH Brand Cycling Theory.
littlewaywelt
10-12-07, 06:20 AM
If the sight line is only 30 yards for somenoe pulling out, and the speed limit is 35 mph, how can any vehicle stop in time to avoid hitting another vehicle pulling out onto the road? I don't think a car can do that even on level pavement, which would include reaction time.
That's plenty of time for that speed & distance. Even a suburban can stop from 60 in 140ft. This is ~90 feet at just over half the speed. A car will stop a lot faster than you think it will.
littlewaywelt
10-12-07, 06:24 AM
This could have easily been a combination of the kid not looking L R L, just doing a L R and then pulling out and a bike's less than immediate breaking ability. That extra second might have made the difference in seeing the rider and not pulling out.
I had a friend in high school that was killed in an identical manner. Van pulled out in front of him while he was doing ~40. Killed instantly.
cooker
10-12-07, 06:53 AM
The cyclist was southbound coming downhill and around a curve. The truck was northbound and turning left. The cyclist hit the side of the truck. The accident occurred close to sunset and the cyclist had no lights.
These are the facts. All the rest is speculation and politics.
jfmckenna
10-12-07, 07:08 AM
I wonder how they will ever be able to tell if the cyclist was actually speeding? It seems to be beyond the point now. Unless they conclude that the cyclist MUST have been speeding otherwise he would have been able to slow down and not hit the truck :rolleyes:
If he was excessively speeding then I could see it as his fault but regardless, the driver of the truck pulled into a lane with on coming traffic.
gosmsgo
10-12-07, 07:24 AM
Mostly? You know they are giving this a fair shake when the overgeneralize like this. :rolleyes:
I teach bike ed for a living and the next cyclists I see stop at a stop sign will be the first and I see hundreds of bikes per day here.
I have a few of my former students that I occasionally see that stop but noone whom I dont know.
Its sad but I agree with this police officer. I've even had a "real cyclists -lycra race kit) curse at me for stopping at a stop sign in front of her.
Az B
10-12-07, 07:26 AM
That's plenty of time for that speed & distance. Even a suburban can stop from 60 in 140ft. This is ~90 feet at just over half the speed. A car will stop a lot faster than you think it will.
Most European sport sedans stop from 60-0 in ~140 ft.
I couldnt find the Suburban's stopping distance on the net, but most SUVs start at about 155 and go up from there. By all accounts, the Suburban has one of the worst stopping distances of most SUVs, so I would think it was closer to 180-190 ft.
By the time you add in reaction time at 60mph (.5 seconds is pretty good) you add another 60 ft, easy. (90ft per second at 60mph) so you're looking at 250 at least, and maybe more depending on conditions and reaction times.
I point this out not to pick nits, but to clearly show how most people do not know how long it takes to stop thier cars. Most people have that "it doesn't take as long as you think" mentality and that's why they typically drive way too fast for conditions, follow to closely, and pay little attention.
Az
Speedo
10-12-07, 07:39 AM
...and was probably keeping right, which, if you look at how the road is curved, you'll see how that shortens the sight lines even more.
...And probably, here comes the hyperbolic wall of words, macabre speculation and pimping of HH Brand Cycling Theory.
Well there's value to that. I ride much more safely now that I know that if I were to snuff it on the roads I'd have HH picking over my poor carcase on Bike Forums.
Speedo
littlewaywelt
10-12-07, 08:49 AM
Most European sport sedans stop from 60-0 in ~140 ft.
I couldnt find the Suburban's stopping distance on the net, but most SUVs start at about 155 and go up from there. By all accounts, the Suburban has one of the worst stopping distances of most SUVs, so I would think it was closer to 180-190 ft.
By the time you add in reaction time at 60mph (.5 seconds is pretty good) you add another 60 ft, easy. (90ft per second at 60mph) so you're looking at 250 at least, and maybe more depending on conditions and reaction times.
I point this out not to pick nits, but to clearly show how most people do not know how long it takes to stop thier cars. Most people have that "it doesn't take as long as you think" mentality and that's why they typically drive way too fast for conditions, follow to closely, and pay little attention.
Az
I looked up the data less than three weeks ago. Here it is again. 138ft
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suv/112_0611_fullsize_suv_comparison/specs_pricing.html
My 4000lb wagon stops from that speed in less than 120 ft.
A 3 series bmw stops in 110ft.
.5 is too long for reaction time. .25 is more realistic
The problem is actually that most ppl don't know how hard they can press on the brakes now. This is why companies like Volvo add emergency braking assistance when the cpu senses the driver is making an emergency stop.
Keith99
10-12-07, 09:14 AM
I looked up the data less than three weeks ago. Here it is again. 138ft
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/suv/112_0611_fullsize_suv_comparison/specs_pricing.html
My 4000lb wagon stops from that speed in less than 120 ft.
.5 is too long for reaction time. .25 is more realistic
The problem is actually that most ppl don't know how hard they can press on the brakes now. This is why companies like Volvo add emergency braking assistance when the cpu senses the driver is making an emergency stop.
Yea .25 is realistic. IF you are watching a light and have your foot already on the brake. Of course in this case we have someone on a bike, hands probably not on the brakes in a low light situation.
littlewaywelt
10-12-07, 09:19 AM
Yea .25 is realistic. IF you are watching a light and have your foot already on the brake. Of course in this case we have someone on a bike, hands probably not on the brakes in a low light situation.
You're correct, the average reaction time is .45 not .25 which is the time it takes to move your foot from one pedal to the other.
Bekologist
10-12-07, 09:24 AM
driver pulls a left cross, violates a bicyclists' right of way ,kills him, and isn't charged.
tragic, and sadly typical of how cyclists' rights to the road are not given fair assessment when collisions or fatalities occur.
something I wonder about - did the police check the motorists' cellphone records to see if the kid was texting or on the phone at the time of the collision?
speed, blind corners? and twilight add complexity to this tragedy. I'm sure those of us that ride regularily know the risks taken being caught out at dusk without lights.
DPN
10-12-07, 09:25 AM
I teach bike ed for a living and the next cyclists I see stop at a stop sign will be the first and I see hundreds of bikes per day here.
I have a few of my former students that I occasionally see that stop but noone whom I dont know.
Its sad but I agree with this police officer. I've even had a "real cyclists -lycra race kit) curse at me for stopping at a stop sign in front of her.
I do stop at stop signs and traffic lights, and I do signal, but I'm the ONLY one in my group that ever does.
We as cyclist want to be treated equally and fairly but we sometimes tend to bring these motorists' bad attitudes on myself by rolling through stop signs and traffic signals.
Even I get pixxed off when I'm stopped at a sign in my car and a fellow roadie goes blowing by...
This is a tragic accident for all involved...
DPN
Blue Order
10-12-07, 09:28 AM
Sunset was at 6:47pm. Here is the intersection (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Country+Club+Drive+and+Village+Boulevard,+incline+village,+ca&sll=32.8418,-117.269453&sspn=0.008455,0.020728&ie=UTF8&ll=39.264266,-119.943328&spn=0.001948,0.005182&t=h&z=18&om=1).
There are a lot of trees here, a blind curve, it was right about at sunset, the cyclist had no light, and was probably keeping right, which, if you look at how the road is curved, you'll see how that shortens the sight lines even more.If Nevada law is the same as the law in other states, he wasn't required to have a light at that hour. BTW, I've been trying to find the time for sunset-- where'd you find it?
musicsucks
10-12-07, 09:37 AM
I like how many times that article mentioned that bikers don't stop at stop signs, when this accident was caused by a driver not yeilding at a stop sign.
bac
10-12-07, 10:16 AM
I wonder how they will ever be able to tell if the cyclist was actually speeding?
Yup, it seems odd that the police always state that the cyclist was speeding. How did they determine if he was speeding or not???????
... Brad
noisebeam
10-12-07, 10:26 AM
Yup, it seems odd that the police always state that the cyclist was speeding. How did they determine if he was speeding or not???????
Too fast for conditions which can be under posted speed limit. Three considtions are dusk, limited sightlines and an intersection.
This is Arizona law on speed limits, likely very similar to local laws where the collision occured:
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00701.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS
specifically this part with my bold:
"D. The maximum speed provided in this section is reduced to the speed that is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and with regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing, including the following conditions:
1. Approaching and crossing an intersection or railroad crossing.
2. Approaching and going around a curve.
3. Approaching a hillcrest.
4. Traveling on a narrow or winding roadway.
5. A special hazard exists with respect to pedestrians or other traffic or by reason of weather or highway conditions."
Al
bac
10-12-07, 10:31 AM
Too fast for conditions which can be under posted speed limit. Three considtions are dusk, limited sightlines and an intersection.
This is Arizona law on speed limits, likely very similar to local laws where the collision occured:
http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/28/00701.htm&Title=28&DocType=ARS
specifically this part with my bold:
"D. The maximum speed provided in this section is reduced to the speed that is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and with regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing, including the following conditions:
1. Approaching and crossing an intersection or railroad crossing.
2. Approaching and going around a curve.
3. Approaching a hillcrest.
4. Traveling on a narrow or winding roadway.
5. A special hazard exists with respect to pedestrians or other traffic or by reason of weather or highway conditions."
Al
That's all very interesting and makes sense, but how do the police know that any of the above happened? How do they have any idea how fast he was going let alone know that he was speeding or going too fast for conditions? How did they determine that fact that they used to put the cyclist at fault?
This is a very important point, as it is the entire case against the now dead cyclist.
... Brad
yes
10-12-07, 10:46 AM
All of those quotes about cyclists needing to learn and obey the rules, and none of it has any relevance to what happened. What a joke. Total incompetence. The real lessons to be learned here:
If you are turning left, watch out for bikes, motorcycles, and pedestrians. Far too many get killed by careless drivers who turn before they look.
"There's so many SUVs on the road these days. That's thousands of pounds on top of you," she said. "It's common sense. If you think about it, weight times speed equals force. And there's a lot of force because you're looking at thousands of pounds versus a few hundred pounds. Do that math."
OK. I get it. She is trying to scare people off of bikes. She is also trying to imply that death by SUV is inevitable and the result of physics. I also get that most people don't understand physics. But for crying out loud, if you don't know a formula, don't bother using it!
bac
10-12-07, 10:52 AM
But for crying out loud, if you don't know a formula, don't bother using it!
Nicely done. :beer: :roflmao:
... Brad
littlewaywelt
10-12-07, 11:13 AM
Yup, it seems odd that the police always state that the cyclist was speeding. How did they determine if he was speeding or not???????
... Brad
impact point to final resting place, or amount of damage to vehicle requires certain force. Knowing that force and the rider's weight you can go backwards.
it's done when skiers go off trail and end up in the woods.
Sir Bikesalot
10-12-07, 11:35 AM
Most European sport sedans stop from 60-0 in ~140 ft.
I couldnt find the Suburban's stopping distance on the net, but most SUVs start at about 155 and go up from there. By all accounts, the Suburban has one of the worst stopping distances of most SUVs, so I would think it was closer to 180-190 ft.
By the time you add in reaction time at 60mph (.5 seconds is pretty good) you add another 60 ft, easy. (90ft per second at 60mph) so you're looking at 250 at least, and maybe more depending on conditions and reaction times.
I point this out not to pick nits, but to clearly show how most people do not know how long it takes to stop thier cars. Most people have that "it doesn't take as long as you think" mentality and that's why they typically drive way too fast for conditions, follow to closely, and pay little attention.
Az
If the car was obeying speed limit and going only 35mph, it could have easily stopped in time. Why bring in 60-0 numbers? At 60mph it doesn't just take 2x as much distance to stop than at 30mph. It's probably like 2.5x-3x.
filtersweep
10-12-07, 12:00 PM
Show me a car that comes to a complete stop...
I teach bike ed for a living and the next cyclists I see stop at a stop sign will be the first and I see hundreds of bikes per day here.
I have a few of my former students that I occasionally see that stop but noone whom I dont know.
Its sad but I agree with this police officer. I've even had a "real cyclists -lycra race kit) curse at me for stopping at a stop sign in front of her.
littlewaywelt
10-12-07, 12:00 PM
If the car was obeying speed limit and going only 35mph, it could have easily stopped in time. Why bring in 60-0 numbers? At 60mph it doesn't just take 2x as much distance to stop than at 30mph. It's probably like 2.5x-3x.
We were talking about the speed of the bike originally, not the car.
Someone made a statement that a car couldn't stop in the distance the bicycle had in between where he came around the bend and location of the truck. A car could clearly stop in that distance at the speed the bicycle was going and we used 60-0 for breaking distances because that's the common yard stick.
Blue Order
10-12-07, 12:19 PM
That's all very interesting and makes sense, but how do the police know that any of the above happened? How do they have any idea how fast he was going let alone know that he was speeding or going too fast for conditions? How did they determine that fact that they used to put the cyclist at fault?
This is a very important point, as it is the entire case against the now dead cyclist.
... BradThere are two possibilities here. One is that the cyclist was traveling too fast for conditions. The other is that the driver turned in front of him at too close a distance. The second possibility is a common occurrence, and one that the police haven't even considered in their rush to blame the cyclist.
Keith99
10-12-07, 12:22 PM
Just to actually add some information. This is from the Naval Observitory site for 10/12 for Carson City. (The Navy does not admit Incline Village exists).
Begin civil twilight 6:39 a.m.
Sunrise 7:06 a.m.
Sun transit 12:46 p.m.
Sunset 6:25 p.m.
End civil twilight 6:52 p.m.
Looking at the map responce time from Incline village to the accident site would be pretty short, I'd guess under 5 minutes. Of course call in time gap could be more.
ccd rider
10-12-07, 12:32 PM
Check the nomenclature......at one point they refer to the 17 year old as a "man" when trying to gain credibility for his driving and judgement capabilities, then turn right around and refer to him as a juvenile when trying to illicit sympathy for any possibility of charges being filed. Hmmm.
Mos6502
10-12-07, 12:33 PM
Did it say anywhere that the driver signaled his turn before making it?
I probably wouldn't fly through an intersection without lights anyway (actually I wouldn't be out without lights anyway), but I'd be far less likely to do so if I saw the vehicle coming towards me intended to turn through my path of travel.
Blue Order
10-12-07, 12:54 PM
How do you know this?You know, I realized after I posted that that you would point out my assumption-- but I left it in anyway.
You're right, I'm making an assumption, but from the way they're handling the investigation, I'm not too worried about making that assumption.
Blue Order
10-12-07, 12:57 PM
Just to actually add some information. This is from the Naval Observitory site for 10/12 for Carson City. (The Navy does not admit Incline Village exists).
Begin civil twilight 6:39 a.m.
Sunrise 7:06 a.m.
Sun transit 12:46 p.m.
Sunset 6:25 p.m.
End civil twilight 6:52 p.m.
Looking at the map responce time from Incline village to the accident site would be pretty short, I'd guess under 5 minutes. Of course call in time gap could be more.Sunset at 6:25, emergency personnel arrived at 6:55, so the accident happened sometime with one half hour of sunset. In California, the cyclist would have been riding legally without lights at that time. In Nevada, I don't know, but I am disturbed that they're blaming him for not having lights at a time when lights were probably not legally required.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-12-07, 01:07 PM
Yup, it seems odd that the police always state that the cyclist was speeding. How did they determine if he was speeding or not???????
... Brad
If not guessing; skid marks, or more likely by the extent of impact damage to the vehicle(s) and/or victim.
Sir Bikesalot
10-12-07, 01:24 PM
That would be interesting to know (whether the driver signaled). Also if the driver had his lights on. Though we'll probably never know for sure since the driver would probably lie if he did not in fact signal or did not have his headlights on at the time.
One other detail that would be interesting to know is where exactly the cyclist impacted the truck. If he hit the back end of the truck, then I would lean more towards the scenario in which the driver did not see the cyclist. Here's my logic. In order for the driver not to be able to see the cyclist, the cyclist would have had to be somewhat far away still; it wasn't pitch black, just a few minutes past sunset afterall. So the driver starts his turn, most likely without signaling, but still giving ample time for the cyclist to register what was happening and to start to apply his brakes. Unfortunately, still not enough time to avoid hitting the truck, but probably enough to slow him down to the point where he would impact towards the rear of the truck.
However, if the impact zone is at the front of the truck, the story is quite different I would say. The driver most likely did see the cyclist, but thought he could beat him through the intersection. He probably initiated his turn at the last moment without warning, such that the cyclist had little indication of his intention to turn and consequently no time to even start to brake, thus impacting towards the front of the truck.
It is also relevant to point out here that 75% of accidents which involve teenage drivers are found to be the fault of the teenage driver. And more telling, most of these happen at intersections.
yes
10-12-07, 01:39 PM
How do you know that?
I read the article.
There were about 9 quotes (depending on how you count them). One of these quotes was related to the crash, and it was pure speculation. The officer said, 'if we find...", and "if ...", and "it was probably hard to see him."
You are so quick to ask, "How do you know ____." How come you don't question the officials who seems to be engaged in guesswork?
Why do you think that a discussion of cyclists stopping at stop signs has any relevance to this crash? It is simply a strategy to fool the listener into blaming the cyclist.
Blue Order
10-12-07, 01:43 PM
How do you know how they are handling the investigation?
Assumption piled upon assumption piled upon assumption.Blaming the cyclist for speeding-- has a qualified forensics engineer reached that conclusion, or was that conclusion made by a police officer with no engineering degree? Perhaps they could publish the name and qualifications of the expert who determined that the cyclist was speeding, along with the evidence to support that conclusion.
Blaming the cyclist for not having a light, when he was not required to have one.
Blaming cyclists for running red lights and stop signs, when that has absolutely nothing to do with this accident (and for the record, I rip other cyclists mercilessly for running red lights and stop signs.).
Saying this is an unfortunate accident in which no one should be blamed. Yet they have blamed the cyclist, and they haven't blamed the driver. If the driver turned into the cyclist's path when the cyclist had the right of way, then the driver is to blame. If the cyclist contributed to the accident through excessive speed, then the cyclist bears some of the blame. But to say no one should be blamed, while simultaneously blaming the cyclist and exonerating the driver, reveals a biased investigation.
It all points to a rush to blame the cyclist when the facts aren't in yet.
littlewaywelt
10-12-07, 01:43 PM
Why do you think that a discussion of cyclists stopping at stop signs has any relevance to this crash? It is simply a strategy to fool the listener into blaming the cyclist.
Don't give the writer that much credit. It's more likely just a slip of preconceived bias and notions and poor writing.
Helmet Head
10-12-07, 01:43 PM
Just to actually add some information. This is from the Naval Observitory site for 10/12 for Carson City. (The Navy does not admit Incline Village exists).
Begin civil twilight 6:39 a.m.
Sunrise 7:06 a.m.
Sun transit 12:46 p.m.
Sunset 6:25 p.m.
End civil twilight 6:52 p.m.
Looking at the map responce time from Incline village to the accident site would be pretty short, I'd guess under 5 minutes. Of course call in time gap could be more.
That's all very interesting, but since the crash occured on 9/20, the information from that date is more relevant. As I posted earlier, sunset on 9/20 was at 6:47pm.
http://www.boattahoe.com/sundata.htm
Blue Order
10-12-07, 01:47 PM
That's all very interesting, but since the crash occured on 9/20, the information from that date is more relevant. As I posted earlier, sunset on 9/20 was at 6:47pm.
Now, everybody, WHY would the police blame the cyclist for not having a light, when the accident occurred at approximately sunset, and he wasn't required to have a light?
bac
10-12-07, 01:50 PM
If the driver turned into the cyclist's path when the cyclist had the right of way, then the driver is to blame. If the cyclist contributed to the accident through excessive speed, then the cyclist bears some of the blame. But to say no one should be blamed, while simultaneously blaming the cyclist and exonerating the driver, reveals a biased investigation.
That's what I wanted to say, but you already stated it so well. :)
... Brad
Blue Order
10-12-07, 01:59 PM
I'm amazed that you can read those articles and miss critical pieces of information like "tentatively" and the fact that all of the "blame" that you cite above is based upon quotes from one LEO who was giving his tentative opinion and who is not part of the investigative team working on the accident.
How does that LEO's "what ifs" indicate that the investigation is biased?They should just say "We're investigating" and shut up, OR lay out more possibilities than "the cyclist is most likely to blame."
dobber
10-12-07, 02:12 PM
Though we'll probably never know for sure since the driver would probably lie if he did not in fact signal or did not have his headlights on at the time.
Interesting how we make the instant assumption that a driver will lie. Kind of like the assumption that the cyclist is ever at fault.
This reminds me of the incident several weeks ago where the cyclist got hit by a train. Momentary inattentiveness, unfamiliar conditions, speed or actions not prudent.
USAZorro
10-12-07, 02:21 PM
That's plenty of time for that speed & distance. Even a suburban can stop from 60 in 140ft. This is ~90 feet at just over half the speed. A car will stop a lot faster than you think it will.