Classic & Vintage - French bikes with Reynolds 531 "Extra Leger"?

Does anyone have a French bike built with the French metric version of the late 1970s Reynolds 531 "SL" (Special Lightweight) tubing?
... This was called "Extra Leger" on French tube set decals.

This came out around the same time as Reynolds 753 tubing (1977).
Just curious because I'm not familiar with any French bikes which used this tubing.
Seatpost size would be 27.0 mm. with a seat tube outer diameter of 28.0.

This is what both the British and the French decals looked like:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2368/1561788186_e3cf5ac98c_m.jpg

Here's my wife's 1982 Andre Bertin C70-
Reynolds 531 Extra Leger frame and fork , Shimano Dura Ace EX group w Dyna Drive Pedals & crankset, Spidel Hubs, Mavic Mod E rims

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s269/caterham1700/bertin028.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s269/caterham1700/bikes002.jpghttp://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s269/caterham1700/bertin029.jpg

It was used on most versions of the Peugeot PY10, though some versions used standard 531. The Peugeot PZ10 and Pro10 also used 531SL.

I don't have that on my early 70's Gitane TdF, but I've wondered why my metric 531 tubing is different. The standard 531 metric TdF frames take a 26.4 post. Mine, just to be odd, takes a 26.6 post, and I've heard from some Gitane Super Corsa owners that also use a 26.6. Someone out there knows I'm sure.

Caterham,
That is really a stunning looking bike.
Glad I asked the question just for the opportunity to see that Bertin.
Amazing condition. That gold finish must be blinding in sunlight.
Thanks for sharing her gem with us. ... Wow!

I don't have that on my early 70's Gitane TdF, but I've wondered why my metric 531 tubing is different. The standard 531 metric TdF frames take a 26.4 post. Mine, just to be odd, takes a 26.6 post, and I've heard from some Gitane Super Corsa owners that also use a 26.6. Someone out there knows I'm sure.

My wife's Bertin also uses a 26.6

Caterham,
That is really a stunning looking bike.
Glad I asked the question just for the opportunity to see that Bertin.
Amazing condition. That gold finish must be blinding in sunlight.
Thanks for sharing her gem with us. ... Wow!

I'll pass that on to her. She's very proud of that bike. She purchased it new when she was working for Inertia , the North American Bertin importer and it's been kept & outfitted almost identically to the way it was when we first met.

best,
k

There seem to be a number of variations which frame builders can choose from. Reading an old brochure from Reynolds, they mentioned that their "Standard" selection for the 531-SL sets (at least the time the pamphlet was written) included a "single butted" seat tube - which the described as being butted only at the bottom bracket and the top would remain only .5 mm thick, like the center of the tubing - for maximum lightness, of course.

To me, his sounded completely nuts. But, it went on to explain that the seat post once inserted would ultimately serve to fortify the thin walls at the top, and of course there would also be the thicker external seat lugs. So, okay, this made some sense, I guess, in theory. Then they went on to explain that these would be carefully packaged, individually wrapped and cushioned, so as not to crush or dent the ultra thin tubes... so, again I decided: Nuts!

And, I suspect many companies also did not want to risk damage during production (or especially to their reputations after sale) from using such frail tubing and opted for a compromise with seat tubing of thicker steel or standard butting on the tops of the seat tubes they selected as well.

Reynolds may also have soon modified their own specifications, perhaps from popular outcry. So this could account for the unexplained variations. A 26.6 mm seatpost on a French seat tube would translate as the same wall thickness as a 27.2 post on a non-French frame.

Here's my wife's 1982 Andre Bertin C70-
Reynolds 531 Extra Leger frame and fork , Shimano Dura Ace EX group w Dyna Drive Pedals & crankset, Spidel Hubs, Mavic Mod E rims

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s269/caterham1700/bertin028.jpg

http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s269/caterham1700/bikes002.jpghttp://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s269/caterham1700/bertin029.jpg

That is a swoon-worthy bicycle.

Errr, what size is that bike, and where are you located in the state of Washington :p ? Seriously, I would love to see your wife's bike in person.

East Hill

it's not a given that one specific tubing will always yield the same seatpost size..
most 28.6 tubes with .6mm walls at the seatpost end will use a 27.2 seatpost, but if there was a bit too much heat during brazing (or some other variable) maybe the builder had to ream out the tube a bit more to take care of ovalization or maybe somethin else happened during the bike's lifetime...

likewise most 28mm tubes with .7mm walls will use the ubiquitous 26.4, but it's probably also possible they just pulled some lighter gauge tubing off the shelf that day, or maybe there was even a special model with thinner butting (for smaller frames, perhaps ?)


I don't have that on my early 70's Gitane TdF, but I've wondered why my metric 531 tubing is different. The standard 531 metric TdF frames take a 26.4 post. Mine, just to be odd, takes a 26.6 post, and I've heard from some Gitane Super Corsa owners that also use a 26.6. Someone out there knows I'm sure.

it's not a given that one specific tubing will always yield the same seatpost size..
most 28.6 tubes with .6mm walls at the seatpost end will use a 27.2 seatpost, but if there was a bit too much heat during brazing (or some other variable) maybe the builder had to ream out the tube a bit more to take care of ovalization or maybe somethin else happened during the bike's lifetime...

likewise most 28mm tubes with .7mm walls will use the ubiquitous 26.4, but it's probably also possible they just pulled some lighter gauge tubing off the shelf that day, or maybe there was even a special model with thinner butting (for smaller frames, perhaps ?)

French will use most often the metric tubing 28mm seat and downtube and 26mm top tube, wal thickness varied, well before there was the unique transfer, there was the light tubing, often called 3-10, also 5-10 and 7-10, .3, .5 , .7mm in the unbutted portion. Seat tubes are normally speced with a single butt, otherwise WAY too many custom lengths of tube to stock, now some custon builders would use a downtube for a seat tube, but not often. Oddball bikes like Cinelli's had internal sleeves, more work.

The 3-10 stuff is VERY fragile, if the frame is mounted in a Park workstand, grab the seat post, I have seen the damage otherwise. .3mm was really beyond the design limits of the base material, back in the pre air-hardening days. But in the mid size (56cm) without too much trouble 18lbs was possible fully built. Stays were also lighter in wall thickness too.

I have an Ellsworth Briggs Favori built with this tubing - it weighs about 19 pounds with standard super record parts and "no great shakes" wheels and tires...rides very nicely and feels plenty stiff. I don't know which grade of tubing this bike was constructed with (except for the EL sticker)...the frame requires a 27.2 seatpost...

I don't have that on my early 70's Gitane TdF, but I've wondered why my metric 531 tubing is different. The standard 531 metric TdF frames take a 26.4 post. Mine, just to be odd, takes a 26.6 post, and I've heard from some Gitane Super Corsa owners that also use a 26.6. Someone out there knows I'm sure.

The theoretical inside diameter for a French 531 seat tube is 26.6mm. During the framebuilding process there is a natural build-up on the inside of the tubes from the plating and painting operations. There may also be some distortion from the brazing process. Normally, the tube is restored to round and any build-up removed by reaming and/or honing operations. However these operations also remove metal and can enlarge the tube.

Some manufacturers will try to bypass these operations and simply substitute a smaller post. Even if the tube is a perfectly round 26.6mm the question is whether to use a 26.4mm or 26.6mm. Ideally, you want the post very slightly undersize relative to the tube so that it provides a good sliding fit when greased. Both 26.4mm and 26.6mm are reasonable sizes depending on the amount of build-up and extent of the reaming/honing operations.

A little something from the guys at Reynolds:


this is really difficult to reply to.

You see when we supplied Peugeot we did supply tubes that were metric size
(28.0mm outside) and imperial (28.6mm outside).
Then in each diameter the thickness of the tube was also supplied, 0.7mm or
0.55mm.
The frame builder would also ream the inside of the tube, so really it could
be a 26.6, 27.0 or 27.2 depending on the seat tube and reaming done.

Some additional info I recieved from Reynolds:

Jim

it's a guess, but I would say metric until early 1980's then change to imperial.

The whole range was revamped in 1981 so it could have changed then,

I have 1978 UK lit with metric & imperial
I have 1981 UK lit with only imperial

I have 1980 French lit with metric.

In the 1970's there was only France, Spain and Switzerland that used metric tubes. All others used imperial as today, but refer to it as metric measure, ie 1" = 25.4 etc

These 3 all changed to imperial as the supply on metric lugs dried up. (pre TIG welded frames)

Terry