I doubt you bonked riding 100 miles per week.

Maybe at 100 miles in a day etc. But you would have to be terribly out of shape to bonk at mile 15 for example.

Also, eating pure sugar is the best way to avoid bonking. Exactly the reason why racers eat things like cookie dough etc. Its about keeping your blood sugar levels stable and to do that on a long ride you need sugar.

Not the time to eat a salad.

I was working at an LTL (Watkins) at the time, so it was bike to school, bike to work, move thousands of pounds of freight by hand and cram some of it on top of pallets in already loaded trailers. Once I nabbed a car that got decent mileage, the financial incentive for biking wasn't there, so I dropped to ~20-40 miles per week. Now that I've moved to BFE I'm lucky to see 10-20 miles per week, and my health's made that reduction obvious. I really should cycle more, even if I can't combine it w/ something constructive like errands, but where I am is pretty depressing and I spend way too much time bickering online. As you saw. :o

In my case, most of the energy I need for cycling comes from fat--my own belly fat. YMMV.

Once I nabbed a car that got decent mileage, the financial incentive for biking wasn't there..

Try adding up all your car bills. ALL of them, not just fuel. Depreciation, parking, repairs, tires, maintenance, insurance, registration. You'll find that an automobile is agonizingly expensive even if gasoline was free.

just looked at a bottle of vegetable oil. It has 12,000 calories in it and I while I do not remember I will say it costs $1.00....I have no idea.

Anyway that is .03 cents per mile. Not 3 cents per mile but 3/100ths of a cent per mile.

chug away if you want.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm vegetable oil.

I don't think it's reasonable to cycle on vegetable oil, nor on food that is as cheap (per-calorie) as veggie oil.

I'm a frugal vegetarian, so bicycle's fuel is often rice, beans, flour tortillas, and veggie oil. The cost per mile remains extremely low. Assuming I do not charge myself for the time I spend preparing food, my grocery-store-bought food costs about $2 per day/36 miles round trip, maximum, above what I would spend if I sat on my butt instead of biking.

I'm entirely unconvinced that cars are as cheap on a per-mile basis as bicycles. Many cyclists, me included, can ride a bike a couple thousand miles on a $100 budget, depreciation of the bike included. Very-old cars can be cheap for people who do their own repairs. But even then, an old $2000 used car depreciates to a $100 piece of scrap metal in some ten years ($200/year depreciation?), consuming hundreds of dollars in replacement parts, $10+ a week in gas=$500+ a year in gas, and a couple hundred a year in insurance.

If you budget for gas but not repairs, depreciation, and insurance, your budget is hugely unrealistic.

I dont get you guys.

I had a $3000.00 truck and I was spending another $600.00 per year or so just watching it sitting in the driveway.

I think those of you "biking is as expensive" as cars are running away from reality as quickly as you can.

I don't think it's reasonable to cycle on vegetable oil, nor on food that is as cheap (per-calorie) as veggie oil.

I'm a frugal vegetarian, so bicycle's fuel is often rice, beans, flour tortillas, and veggie oil. The cost per mile remains extremely low. Assuming I do not charge myself for the time I spend preparing food, my grocery-store-bought food costs about $2 per day/36 miles round trip, maximum, above what I would spend if I sat on my butt instead of biking.

I'm entirely unconvinced that cars are as cheap on a per-mile basis as bicycles. Many cyclists, me included, can ride a bike a couple thousand miles on a $100 budget, depreciation of the bike included. Very-old cars can be cheap for people who do their own repairs. But even then, an old $2000 used car depreciates to a $100 piece of scrap metal in some ten years ($200/year depreciation?), consuming hundreds of dollars in replacement parts, $10+ a week in gas=$500+ a year in gas, and a couple hundred a year in insurance.

If you budget for gas but not repairs, depreciation, and insurance, your budget is hugely unrealistic.

Oh and $2.00 for 36 miles is about 10 dollars cheaper than you could drive a car for that distance.

In my case, most of the energy I need for cycling comes from fat--my own belly fat. YMMV.

Oh, if only...:(

I still managed to bonk on one of my rides, even though I was almost 60 lbs. overweight at the time, with a lot of fat in the belly.

It's a matter of how fast you're using energy compared to how fast you can convert it... I've been in situations where I've bonked even though I was eating lots... your body can burn energy faster than it can absorb it from food or convert it from 'other' sources...

If you sustain your effort at a level faster than you're taking it in or converting it, you're going to bonk... I've had to stop during a ride and take a 20 minute nap on the side of the road before! (Actually twice.. both over 100 miles into a brevet)

In my case, most of the energy I need for cycling comes from fat--my own belly fat. YMMV.I have some'a'that! :eek: :p
Try adding up all your car bills. ALL of them, not just fuel. Depreciation, parking, repairs, tires, maintenance, insurance, registration. You'll find that an automobile is agonizingly expensive even if gasoline was free.Ja ja meng. Total cost for everything semi-permanent thus far is ~$600-650 IIRC and going down! :p That includes the cost of two cars, new starter (llt), battery (8 year prorated), solenoid switch for the gps, replacement bearings, 6 port solenoid, fuel injection line, four brand new tires with 45k mile tread life warranty, free flat repair and free replacement if repair is not possible, etc... Insurance, which covers me whether I'm on bike, foot, or car in any accident involving another vehicle is $300/year and reg is ~$35/year. Fuel is ~$0-3/gal depending on source and $1.50/gal delivered. Items like oil changes/air filters, etc... are around $60/year. About 80% of use is two or more people. It comes down to about 4 cents per personal mile, plus the cost of the vehicle, which may be positive or negative by the time I'm done with it. If I went and pushed the entire thing off a cliff right now it would be at 10 cents/mile. Otoh, if I sold it the cost per mile would likely be around -3-10 cents per mile. Yes, that's a negative. I'm not a sucker who buys depreciating assets in this arena. They either stay the same or increase. ;)

I figure by the time I'm done cost will be at ~3 cents per mile assuming I keep it and use it for a good amount of time. :D Course, I use that thing between my ears, so the average driver and/or person probably isn't able to even consider something like this, let alone do it. Most have so much $$$ they don't fret about where it goes, whatever is easiest and alla that.

I don't think it's reasonable to cycle on vegetable oil, nor on food that is as cheap (per-calorie) as veggie oil.

I'm a frugal vegetarian, so bicycle's fuel is often rice, beans, flour tortillas, and veggie oil. The cost per mile remains extremely low. Assuming I do not charge myself for the time I spend preparing food, my grocery-store-bought food costs about $2 per day/36 miles round trip, maximum, above what I would spend if I sat on my butt instead of biking.

I'm entirely unconvinced that cars are as cheap on a per-mile basis as bicycles. Many cyclists, me included, can ride a bike a couple thousand miles on a $100 budget, depreciation of the bike included. Very-old cars can be cheap for people who do their own repairs. But even then, an old $2000 used car depreciates to a $100 piece of scrap metal in some ten years ($200/year depreciation?), consuming hundreds of dollars in replacement parts, $10+ a week in gas=$500+ a year in gas, and a couple hundred a year in insurance.

If you budget for gas but not repairs, depreciation, and insurance, your budget is hugely unrealistic.That's like 5 cents/mile in fuel costs alone, not counting the cost of the bike! You would save quite a bit of money w/ a DIY electric bike conversion. ;) Besides, why would I buy a $2000 car if all it's gonna do is depreciate? Yer cherry picking meng. Even after getting beat on for hundreds of thousands of miles most cars aren't worth just $100 unless the owner is lazy. That being said, I wasn't talking about the average person, I was talking about what someone could do. The variance in cycling costs are very little due to food. Otoh, the variance in car costs are way more, and can be brought down around cycling costs if the individual is willing to put in the time. But... most people are lazy, so most people don't. Not that a car could ever touch an electric bicycle, but food's expensive meng. :mad:

lyeinyoureye, i have not seen a single other person who claims that a person's daily-driver car can realistically appreciate. My comment about a $2000 car was very realistic... you can't expect most cars driven daily that are worth $2000 now to still have enough value to be worth repairing, ten years from now. That's depreciation. Now maybe you're the type to buy a $400 broken car and fix it, run it for a few years, and then sell it as a $400 working car, but that's a difficult feat and if you're that good at car repair then your time spent on car repair could have gotten you a fair bit of money if you weren't "using up" your car repairs.

*compared to my $100/year bicycle budget

No, yes, yes, and no. ;)
No to your comment about the $2000 car. It wasn't very realistic because I was talking about what I can do/have done, and stating that most people could do it too, with the condition that they want to do it. Which, is a pretty big if because most don't want to have to get up to change the channel if ya know what I mean. Yes, a $2000 used car can hold it's value if the individual buying it chooses wisely and is handy or at least willing to learn. Yes one can buy a $400 car w/ something wrong w/ it, fix it and sell it for $400 later. They can even buy a $400 car, fix it, and sell it for more than $400 if they use their noggin'. If you say I'm that good I'm thankful... :o But, I disagree because I can't find a job for the life of me fixing cars. If I maybe had some official training/certs, or knew someone, or somethin' else, I could. But... I don't, and can't find work in that respect. Same goes for computer stuff... I can't go in a bidness and say omgz I'm gud hire me. They won't, even if I was that good. First off, they have no reason to believe me, and second, in general people who are too good (in both senses) aren't liked either if ya know what I mean... (continued via anecdote in PM) :p

Fuel is ~$0-3/gal depending on source and $1.50/gal delivered.

Where I live, a small number of diesel-engine owners hit up the deep-frying restaurants for free waste oil. I'm driving a gasoline car to work on days I don't bike, (will have an e-bike up and running in a few weeks so I can stop driving) and everybody who wants gasoline has to go to the gas station and pay $2.70/gallon for it.

Traffic being what it is around here, the best you can expect to do on fuel costs with a small, inexpensive car is about $.10/mile, far worse than my estimated $.05/mile in fuel for bicycling.

A bicycle is hands-down cheaper in repair/insurance/depreciation as well.

If you can make your car appreciate, more power to ya, but the more people that try to invest in used cars that will appreciate, the more difficult it will be to make them appreciate (free market being what it is, and all)

Oh, if only...:(

I still managed to bonk on one of my rides, even though I was almost 60 lbs. overweight at the time, with a lot of fat in the belly.


Bonking has to do with your blood sugar and nothing to do with how fat you are.

No, yes, yes, and no. ;)
No to your comment about the $2000 car. It wasn't very realistic because I was talking about what I can do/have done, and stating that most people could do it too, with the condition that they want to do it. Which, is a pretty big if because most don't want to have to get up to change the channel if ya know what I mean. Yes, a $2000 used car can hold it's value if the individual buying it chooses wisely and is handy or at least willing to learn. Yes one can buy a $400 car w/ something wrong w/ it, fix it and sell it for $400 later. They can even buy a $400 car, fix it, and sell it for more than $400 if they use their noggin'. If you say I'm that good I'm thankful... :o But, I disagree because I can't find a job for the life of me fixing cars. If I maybe had some official training/certs, or knew someone, or somethin' else, I could. But... I don't, and can't find work in that respect. Same goes for computer stuff... I can't go in a bidness and say omgz I'm gud hire me. They won't, even if I was that good. First off, they have no reason to believe me, and second, in general people who are too good (in both senses) aren't liked either if ya know what I mean... (continued via anecdote in PM) :p

I don't know how to fix a car. How long would it take me to learn? How much would I have to pay somebody to teach me? How much time would I spend or waste trying to do even "simple" jobs like changing brakes, or even changing the oil? Your idea that fixer-uppers are practical for the average motorist is absurd.

I bought $400 cars for years, drove them until something major went wrong and then sold them for $25 to the junk yard. I believe that's by far the cheapest form of auto transit available to the average person. The problem was, most of those cars couldn't be trusted for a trip out of town. If the car's only reliable for in-town trips, why not just ride a bike? Furthermore, I think that the plan of driving a $400 car into the grave is still far more expensive than my current plan of driving a $150 bike into the grave. (A $400 car will usually last about 6-10 months, in my experience. A $150 bike will last several years. And, of course, I don't need to insure my bike.)

Cycling takes about 40 calories per mile, or about one large bite of food. Maybe that will help people to put the "fuel" costs into perspective.

It's a matter of how fast you're using energy compared to how fast you can convert it... I've been in situations where I've bonked even though I was eating lots... your body can burn energy faster than it can absorb it from food or convert it from 'other' sources...

If you sustain your effort at a level faster than you're taking it in or converting it, you're going to bonk... I've had to stop during a ride and take a 20 minute nap on the side of the road before! (Actually twice.. both over 100 miles into a brevet)

In the normal course of cycling, bonking is a pretty rare occurrence. Most people on BF who say they "bonked" are really saying that they rode a lot further/faster than their physical condition would allow, and they got very tired. It's usually only racers who truly bonk, along with people like you who are doing brevets and other "extreme" rides.

As I'm sure you know, people need to use proper training techniques to avoid getting over-tired. These techniques can easily be incorporated into a carfree cycling lifestyle.

I don't know how to fix a car. How long would it take me to learn? How much would I have to pay somebody to teach me? How much time would I spend or waste trying to do even "simple" jobs like changing brakes, or even changing the oil? Your idea that fixer-uppers are practical for the average motorist is absurd.

So driving a car might be really expensive for you. It may even be really expensive for the "average motorist", although I don't pretend to know what that actually is. The point, though, is that blanket statements about how much it costs to drive a car are out of line. Just because AAA says it costs 50 cents a mile doesn't mean that Jay Leno and Cletus the slack-jawed yokel are both spending $10,000 a year on cars.

IOW, claims that driving has to cost more than cycling are incorrect.

At first I thought lyeinyoureye's fuel theory made sense. Maybe it does, for some people. But I rode 35 miles yesterday, and 25 today, and I didn't eat more than I do when my only ride is the 8 mile commute. I do feel a little skinnier, but no hungrier.

So driving a car might be really expensive for you. It may even be really expensive for the "average motorist", although I don't pretend to know what that actually is. The point, though, is that blanket statements about how much it costs to drive a car are out of line. Just because AAA says it costs 50 cents a mile doesn't mean that Jay Leno and Cletus the slack-jawed yokel are both spending $10,000 a year on cars.

IOW, claims that driving has to cost more than cycling are incorrect.

I agree that in some rather weird circumstances it might be cheaper to drive than ride.

As for "average" just look around you. The average motorist buys a new car every 5 or 6 years, or leases a new one even more frequently. IOW, on average, people are making a car payment every month of their lives, and the average payment is probably more than $200. Most drivers don't even wash their own cars, let alone do major repairs or change the oil. The average cost of insurance is also higher than that reported by the car lovers on the carfree forum. AAA knows that, even if they don't.

The average motorist buys a new car every 5 or 6 years, or leases a new one even more frequently. IOW, on average, people are making a car payment every month of their lives, and the average payment is probably more than $200. Most drivers don't even wash their own cars, let alone do major repairs or change the oil.
My glib side is telling me to ask you for a cite. It really doesn't matter what the "average" is, though. It's what one can do that's important, and if it's really important for people to save money, they can drive quite inexpensively. IMO, the "Car-free will save you millions!" argument is just another rationalization for what amounts to a personal lifestyle choice. I don't have any problem with folks who choose to be car-free for whatever reason, but some of the more militant arguments can be fairly amusing.

My glib side is telling me to ask you for a cite. It really doesn't matter what the "average" is, though. It's what one can do that's important, and if it's really important for people to save money, they can drive quite inexpensively. IMO, the "Car-free will save you millions!" argument is just another rationalization for what amounts to a personal lifestyle choice. I don't have any problem with folks who choose to be car-free for whatever reason, but some of the more militant arguments can be fairly amusing.

I'm glad we keep you amused. But what practical steps could the "average" person take to make car ownership as cheap as being carfree?

In my poorest days, I drove an old pick-up that I got for $1,000. I did my own maintenance including fluid changes, brakes, etc. Anyone who can work on their own bike can work on their own car, and I did all the work on the street in front of the house where I was renting a room. Registration for an older vehicle with a low value is next to nothing; I think it was $150 a year. Insurance can also be quite cheap if you shop around and go for liability only. I'm sure it was less than $1,000 a year. Gas was no big deal as I wasn't driving more than one or two hundred miles per week. The bottom line was that I was living, at times, on less than $500 dollars a month, so the idea that a car has to cost $10,000 per year is demonstrably false.

Again, I have zero problems with people who choose to go car-free, but what's wrong with just saying "This is the choice I've made for myself" rather than coming up with all this stuff about how owning a car will cost you millions and destroy the planet?

FWIW, life has been pretty kind to me; I could sink a lot of money into cars these days if that was my thing. But I'm not much of a car guy, so I buy nice used cars and run them until they become unreliable. That means I can spend $7500 on a car with maybe 50,000 miles on it, take it to the shop for maybe $1000 worth of initial service, and then another $250 every year at the shop, because I'm lazy. I still only carry liability insurance because replacing a $7500 car isn't going to kill me, and registration is maybe $200 per year. Gas isn't a big deal because I only drive about 100 miles per week. Even at today's prices -- and a car that likes premium -- I'm looking at about $50 a month. And I'll keep a car for 5 years at an absolute minimum.

So let's see...

Car plus initial service: $8500.
Yearly service by the shop: $250.
Yearly registration and insurance: $1000.
Yearly gas: $600
Multiplying the yearly expenses by five years gets me to $9250, and adding the initial cost brings me to $17,750. Divided by five, looks like my yearly cost is $3550 -- assuming that when I sell the car I get $0.

That's less than I spent on bicycle stuff this year...

...AAA says it costs 50 cents a mile...

...I only drive about 100 miles per week...
...looks like my yearly cost is $3550..

Then your average cost of car ownership is 68 cents per mile.

I'm no genius with arithmetic, but I think it's more than that. Isn't it dollars per year divided by miles per year? I think the actual total would be almost 74 cents per mile. Of course, if I drove twice as much and paid twice as much for mainenance and gas, that'd be about 46 cents per mile. So the cost per mile is slightly misleading, as driving more looks like it costs you less, which is obviously silly.

Anyone who can work on their own bike can work on their own car, and I did all the work on the street in front of the house where I was renting a room.
There are those of us who don't have the knowledge of how to fix a car. If I had that knowledge, I'd be happy to do my own work, but until then, I'd rather take it to someone who knows, even if it costs me more money.
Again, I have zero problems with people who choose to go car-free, but what's wrong with just saying "This is the choice I've made for myself" rather than coming up with all this stuff about how owning a car will cost you millions and destroy the planet?
I agree with you on this one.

Why are people posting about their cages in the car-free forum.

Most of us are beyond such primitive forms of transportation. Its called evolution and you guys should look into it.

Maybe I could post about my bike on www.ILOVECARS.com

ha ha.

Just kidding guys! As long as you own a car you will take this kind of medicine.

At least this guy is a cyclist who came in to diss his car, not like the two SUVs owner who just dropped in to rant about how he needs a car and how dare we discuss car-free living?

I don't know how to fix a car. How long would it take me to learn? How much would I have to pay somebody to teach me? How much time would I spend or waste trying to do even "simple" jobs like changing brakes, or even changing the oil? Your idea that fixer-uppers are practical for the average motorist is absurd.It'll take you as long as it takes you. Given your attitude, I'm not sure if you would be successful at it because you seem to have inherent biases that would probably influence whether or not you will seriously try it. You don't need to pay someone unless ya want to. It's the same as working on bikes except there's more ta do. Similarly, information can be found online, service manuals, and from asking around, although I've found the latter to be the least informative since people tend to be protective about their cut of the pie. Your bias is evident in asking how much time you would waste, since there really isn't any time wasted doing anything, unless you don't want to do it. If ya don't that's fine. No one's twisting yer arm. But, if you don't mind it, there are options that allow car ownership to be as cheap as bicycle ownership. Just like living off grid can be way cheaper than living in the city, and fixing yer own toilet can be cheaper than calling someone to fix it for ya. All that wasted time is simply time someone takes to figure out how to do something and get better at it. The more varied stuff ya do, the more ya tend to get better at doing other things and picking up skillz in general. Most people don't like to do this. They would rather do repetitive tasks for relatively little pay and not have to worry about learning new things, even if they have to do more work overall. People are lazy, that's just how it be. If ya want to be lazy about some things that's fine, but it doesn't invalidate what I do, or what others could choose to do. It may not be practical, because people tend to be lazy (including myself), but it's certainly possible for most. Changing the oil takes me about the time it would take to drive down to the shop to have the oil changed, when I first tried it, it took about twice that much time. Brakes aer similar compared to having a shop do it ,at about half the time. Although, in terms of brakes, given the relatively small labor charges, liability involved, and the fact that most shops can do volume on these things, just like tires and whatnot, it may be worthwhile to allow more down time for a car and pay a little extra to have brakes done at a shop. I didn't change the tires on my car because ordering the tires online or from a shop and installing 'em myself was the same if not more than having another shop install 'em w/o the warranties. Loss leaders and alla that...

I bought $400 cars for years, drove them until something major went wrong and then sold them for $25 to the junk yard. I believe that's by far the cheapest form of auto transit available to the average person. The problem was, most of those cars couldn't be trusted for a trip out of town. If the car's only reliable for in-town trips, why not just ride a bike? Furthermore, I think that the plan of driving a $400 car into the grave is still far more expensive than my current plan of driving a $150 bike into the grave. (A $400 car will usually last about 6-10 months, in my experience. A $150 bike will last several years. And, of course, I don't need to insure my bike.)It may be more expensive for you, but it isn't for me. Maybe there's something inherently different about me that allows me to spend time learning new skills while you can't, but I don't think there is. We just choose how to spend our time. For instance, I could be in the garage pulling apart a trans right now, but I'm not. It's not that I feel I can't pull it apart, it's that I would rather respond to your post than pull it apart atm. Stuff that you could do but choose not to follows similarly. Most people are can do what most other people can do. They don't because they choose not to, but that's a choice. When we start getting into extremes, like riding like Lance, shooting like Kobe, or whatnot, it becomes harder for most. But simply riding a bike, shooting a basketball, or even fixing a car are within the abilities of most people. They may not be able to do whatever as skillfully or as quickly as someone at the extremes, but they can likely still do it. Like I said, it's a choice for most...

Cycling takes about 40 calories per mile, or about one large bite of food. Maybe that will help people to put the "fuel" costs into perspective.Dang! :eek: I always assumed 25 calories/mile. That'll really drive up costs for cycling compared to driving from my POV. Almost to the point where driving alone using straight diesel is the same as cycling.

At first I thought lyeinyoureye's fuel theory made sense. Maybe it does, for some people. But I rode 35 miles yesterday, and 25 today, and I didn't eat more than I do when my only ride is the 8 mile commute. I do feel a little skinnier, but no hungrier.Calories are calories, they gotta come from somewhere. That's kinda like saying I didn't pay for gas today, but my car feels a little lighter, so it was free, right? :p There's also the potential to grow biofuels, which I think is easier than growing a balanced diet, but I only have info from Purdue Hort regarding this, no personal experience.

Cyling costs 31 calories per mile according to Dr. Coyle, an exercise physiologist. http://davesbikeblog.blogspot.com/2007/09/running-vs-cycling-burning-calories.html

So based on Roody's average 30 miles/day, that's 930 calories he has to add to his diet to compensate for cycling. Of course, if he didn't bike he might belong to a gym, and if he was 50 lbs heavier he might have to burn more calories just walking upstairs, so I'm not sure 930 calories is the right number. It might actually be less.

Suppose he eats the same diet whether he bikes or not, but simply adds 930 calories in carbs for the biking. That would be about 232 gram of carbohydrate. Of course, not all the calories in a gram of carbs, like spaghetti or whatever, are recovered in digestion, so he'd have to add a bit more than 232 grams to get the 930 calories, but I'm sure he wouldn't have to supplement his diet with a 900 g (1 lb) package of spaghetti a day. That package would cost about $1, so, assuming you average 31 cal/mile and 30 miles per day every day, the cost of extra food as biking fuel is well under $1/day, or well under $365/year. And that's a generous overestimate.

Assuming that raw spaghetti was eaten to provide all those calories, then I think that's accurate more or less. The thing is, if we assume that Roody's initial figure was already including digestion, the difference between burning 31 calories and eating 40 calories to get those 31 seems plausible. Even at 31 calories, $1, 30 miles/day, raw spaghetti, no sauce :( :( ;), that's still 3.3 cents/mile at 15mph. With two people at over three times the speed fuel costs for me, assuming straight from the pump, right now, are 2.7 cents/mile. An alternative fuel, ready for use, delivered to my door, is a little more than half that, and if I do all the work myself it's way less. If I drop down to ~30mph average speed, my mileage nearly doubles, and costs reflect this. A bicycle is similar if the rider is already at ~20mph, and drops to something like 10mph, but here we're already assuming 15mph.

The most cost effective form of transportation undoubtedly depends on use. There's very little point in firing up a car to go 3 miles down the road. But, an electric bike compared to a human on a bike can be just as cost effective as a human on a bike compared to a car. The same goes for an electric velo compared to an electric bike if speed is needed. Anyone can spend the ~13+ hours to go 200 miles on a bike per day at 15mph, but compared to two people in a cost effective car, it's way more time consuming and just as, if not more, expensive.

It's mostly YMMV out there. Unfortunately for cyclists, minimal fuel costs don't vary as widely as minimal fuel costs for drivers. The same can be said for vehicles with electric power compared to just about anything else out there.

There are those of us who don't have the knowledge of how to fix a car. If I had that knowledge, I'd be happy to do my own work, but until then, I'd rather take it to someone who knows, even if it costs me more money.

I had to teach myself how to work on my car, and it was a bit of a pain. But I figured it out, and most of it's not rocket science. I'm never going to be replacing my own transmission or anything, but the routine stuff really is pretty simple.

Having said that, I'm now at a place in life where I'm more than happy to pay other people to take care of that bit of drudgery. I just don't think that "I don't know how" is an adequate excuse, when the subject is the superiority of the car-free lifestyle. :)

Assuming that raw spaghetti was eaten to provide all those calories, then I think that's accurate more or less. The thing is, if we assume that Roody's initial figure was already including digestion, the difference between burning 31 calories and eating 40 calories to get those 31 seems plausible. Even at 31 calories, $1, 30 miles/day, raw spaghetti, no sauce :( :( ;), that's still 3.3 cents/mile at 15mph.

I can't figure out the cost of cooking spaghetti right now but I'm sure it's very small (pennies). We don't have to worry about having no sauce - the spaghetti has to be added to the diet, but the sauce can replace something else since it doesn't figure into the calorie count. And if the calories lost are only 30%, then he would need about 1/3 lb of spaghetti a day, so around $0.30 - $0.40/day.

Of course these are very rough figures.

Fer sure. I think it's ~.5 cent/mile, if that, depending on use. But, like oil changes or tires on a car, it's something. The assumption of 30 calories per mile via a Uni Doctor seems to be correct. So I'm not sure how that could go down much since assuming something like pre-digestion would be confusing to say the least. Even at 10mph it's still 26cal/mile. $1 for a lb of spaghetti, w/ 930cal results in 30 miles per pound (930(cal/pkg)/31(cal/mile) and 100 cents per 30 miles, or ~3.3 cents per mile at 15mph. It's ~2.8 cents/mile at 10mph. I'm pretty sure a Phd like Mr. Coyle is using what the person would need to eat since anything else would be too misleading. Food is expensive because it's fossil fuel intensive. I think the absolutely cheapest source of calories I've found is when there's a sale on a 10lb bag of potatoes for $2.50-3, at a shade over or under 2 cents per mile at 15mph. I've seen one sale, that'll happen a few times per year where I used to live, and I love, where they're $1/10lb bag, and then costs are ~.7 cents per mile raw. But that's not something I can count on.

WTF are you guys arguing about?

We aren't arguing about anything. Last I checked anyway...

I have spent $150.00 on car costs in the past 6 months and drove brand new cars both times I rented.

Those of you "cars are cheaper than bikes" feel free to tell me how much less you have spent than that.

Saying I've spent X amount w/o any mention of use is just silly. There was this one month I only used a car like two or three times and since I had a full tank and had paid my insurance already I didn't pay anything, OMGWTF beat that n3wbz0rs1!1! :P aND THIS ONE DAY i SOLD A CAR, I MADE LIKE HUNDREDS OF DOLLARS PER MILE DRIVEN11111! ;) If sum1 came to my house to buy it i would've made infinity money since i drove it zero miles that day.... ohhhhh!hhh!1 :D

I've driven twice and rented a car both times....thats where the 150 dollars came from.

Does that include gas? How many miles were driven? Like I said, w/o enough information, it's silly to compare stuff, at least wrt what I was talkin' about. I could pay someone $100 to drive their Corvette around the block, but just because I spent less than you doesn't mean my transportation costs are less in any significant way.

My only issue with your analysis, lyeinyoureye, is that you're assuming that every single calorie expended cycling is extra calories you have to take in... Look around the country... how many people already take in more calories than they should???

If you're NOT riding regularly, what DO you do for exercise??? Are you including THOSE calories in your cost analysis???

My 12.5 mile (one way) commute took me an extra 10 minutes per trip compared to driving (I lived in the same building as a coworker for a while and regularly amazed her with how fast I got back and forth)

When I WASN'T riding for 6 months (Or doing much of anything, due to an injury) I put on 15 lbs, felt lethargic and irritable, and was just all around unpleasant. Even going out for walks for as long as my knee would last wasn't enough exercise. (Usually at least a half hour walk with my dogs every night) I could have joined a gym, and probably gotten more exercise, but that's another cost.


There are other costs involved... health care, road maintenance, pollution controls, and even more! Sure, it's hard to see any possible way that you alone can impact those costs, but if EVERYBODY tried to reduce their car usage, and use other alternatives, there WOULD be a huge impact.

My only issue with your analysis, lyeinyoureye, is that you're assuming that every single calorie expended cycling is extra calories you have to take in... Look around the country... how many people already take in more calories than they should???That's true, but it's not specific to this topic in that it's not exclusive. They could just as easily drop those calories by doing something else that combines utility, like chopping firewood, building a house, doing chores, etc... Or, just minimize their caloric intake such that they loose weight naturally w/o the need for excessive exercise. Like I said before, it's fine if they do, but if we're gonna look at cycling as a form of transportation compared to other forms from whatever perspective, in this case economic, we need to look at all the inputs.

If you're NOT riding regularly, what DO you do for exercise??? Are you including THOSE calories in your cost analysis???Not when I use those calories on other endevours that I would consider useful, or just don't exercise at all. I see what yer getting at, if one can bike to get exercise, but instead drives then goes to a gym to burn extra calories it's wasteful. But... I don't do that, and wouldn't include any calories burned just to get exercise because I don't exercise for the sake of exercise.

When I WASN'T riding for 6 months (Or doing much of anything, due to an injury) I put on 15 lbs, felt lethargic and irritable, and was just all around unpleasant. Even going out for walks for as long as my knee would last wasn't enough exercise. (Usually at least a half hour walk with my dogs every night) I could have joined a gym, and probably gotten more exercise, but that's another cost.You may want to consider looking into monitoring your caloric intake more in order to avoid problems when you change your habits.

There are other costs involved... health care, road maintenance, pollution controls, and even more! Sure, it's hard to see any possible way that you alone can impact those costs, but if EVERYBODY tried to reduce their car usage, and use other alternatives, there WOULD be a huge impact.Sure thing ther are other impacts. But like I said, I was, and we were to a lesser extent (not everyone is gonna be OT wrt a post I make) looking at a specific subject. We could get into other externalized costs, but it's not as clean cut and dry as many would like to believe. If ya wanna branch into other aspects besides what my original posts and those after that have been about, shoot, go fer it. I ain't opposed to discussion, it generally rounds out what I've found about stuff.

Then your average cost of car ownership is 68 cents per mile.

PwnED!!

I'm no genius with arithmetic, but I think it's more than that. Isn't it dollars per year divided by miles per year? I think the actual total would be almost 74 cents per mile. Of course, if I drove twice as much and paid twice as much for mainenance and gas, that'd be about 46 cents per mile. So the cost per mile is slightly misleading, as driving more looks like it costs you less, which is obviously silly.

Not so silly if you know how to multiply and divide. And the AAA figures take miles per year into account. IIRC, they provide separate figures for 5000, 10000 and 15000 miles per year. And clearly, the cost per mile is lower if you drive more miles, since some of the expenses are fixed costs, like insurance and registration.

Not so silly if you know how to multiply and divide...And clearly, the cost per mile is lower if you drive more miles...
Oh good. I'll just start driving a lot more; maybe just around the block a bunch of times after work each day. I'll invest the savings and be a millionaire by the time I retire.

Never underestimate the power of self-delusion, eh? :lol:

A couple points for lyeinyoureye and others to consider.

First (as bmcglaughlin said), if I didn't ride, I would be doing other things for exercise. I get sick quickly if I don't exercise. So for me, the cost of alternaive exercise would have to be included in the cost of a car. Conversely, for me cycling doesn't require additional calories, so those costs should not be included.

Second, I agree that it would cut the cost of car ownership somewhat to do your own maintenance and repairs. But some of you have probably been learning how to do that since you were little kids handing wrenches to your dad. Not me, and not most people. I bet it would take the equivalent of a year's full time study to learn as much about car repair as some of you have picked up automatically in the course of your lives. It's like learning Chinese--labor intensive for an American adult, pretty easy for a kid growing up in Beijing.

Third, even though you can do a lot of maintenance on your own car, most can't do the reallly expensive stuff like straightening a frame after an accident or whatever. That's still going to be a major expense. (And you've said to have only liability insurance, so you will have to pay for your own repairs if you have an accident.)

I hope you warmed up before attempting those stretches, mate. Wouldn't want you to pull something. :lol:

Oh good. I'll just start driving a lot more; maybe just around the block a bunch of times after work each day. I'll invest the savings and be a millionaire by the time I retire.

Never underestimate the power of self-delusion, eh? :lol:

The cost per mile is one figure, the total cost per year is another. It will cost more in total to drive more miles per year, but cost per mile will be lower if you drive more miles. It's a pretty simple linear equation, really, and AAA did take it into account.

It will cost more in total to drive more miles per year, but cost per mile will be lower if you drive more miles.

Which is why cost per mile is a fairly useless number to begin with. What were we talking about again?

<edit> Oh, right. We were talking about many years of school it takes the average adult American to learn how to change his own oil. I can't wait to see the arithmatic games that's going to require!

Conversely, for me cycling doesn't require additional calories, so those costs should not be included.Of course it requires additional calories. Unless ya happen to violate the laws of thermodynamics or get free food. ;) Even if yer loosing weight, ya had to have put that weight on at some point, and unless ya did it for free, it cost ya money.

Second, I agree that it would cut the cost of car ownership somewhat to do your own maintenance and repairs. But some of you have probably been learning how to do that since you were little kids handing wrenches to your dad. Not me, and not most people. I bet it would take the equivalent of a year's full time study to learn as much about car repair as some of you have picked up automatically in the course of your lives. It's like learning Chinese--labor intensive for an American adult, pretty easy for a kid growing up in Beijing.Not me either. But it wasn't impossible to pick up. Spent about 40-60 hours over the course of a year and learned how ya wrench. Like I said, it mostly has to do with investing time and a desire to do something. It applies to anything really. Some may learn a bit quicker or slower, but the variance isn't very large. Course, if someone wants to spend that time in front of the TV, that's fine too...

Third, even though you can do a lot of maintenance on your own car, most can't do the reallly expensive stuff like straightening a frame after an accident or whatever. That's still going to be a major expense. (And you've said to have only liability insurance, so you will have to pay for your own repairs if you have an accident.)To an extent, sure. But... It only applies to an at-fault accident, so it encourages the driver to drive safely. I haven't had an at-fault accident in a decade of driving. Frame/body straightening/repair can be done at home, it's just not as easy as at a shop, but it's also a ton cheaper too.

Which is why cost per mile is a fairly useless number to begin with.Fer sure, if ya wanna live in the city. I mean, if ya got an extra ~$200-500k burning a hole in yer pocket and wanna spend it living somewhere, why not spend it on a house in a dense area? I'd rather spend the same per mile, at maybe double the 30 miles/day quoted, to not have to given up my firstborn for a home. But y'all can throw yer money away however ya like. Course, my cost per mile is about the same regardless of how many miles I drive or bike per year since I would still pay for insurance if I didn't touch my car once in a year just for the hit and run/liability protection. But, ya sure mengs. I understand if ya can't put in the time or effort in order to use more than one form of transportation and don't mind paying out the rear end to live in the city. Most Americans are lazy, that's just how it be... :D

Yes. Like any of the other forums on BF, anyone can post here if what they have to say is on topic. I'd assume that would include even car-only people.

Also, I think we have a couple of automotive designers and an auto mechanic who post here as well!

The auto designer of the PT Cruiser rides his bike to work everyday..saw it on a science/tech show my daughter was watching..

Real Techies appreciate bikes :)

Cheers!