# Commuting - Formal Testing of Grant Peterson's Theory

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kill.cactus
10-19-07, 03:02 PM
Okay so this has been invalidated. I just was shown a section of the Grant Peterson Article that says in "vicious sprints" clipless helps.

But I went to all this trouble! So I'll post it anyways.

Today I went out to my school's track (which I was barred from biking on after the athletic director saw me) and I put the clipless theory to the test.

Conditions: I made sure to do the tests in quick succession, having just finished a three mile warm up. I allowed 60 second rests between each sprint. The wind direction was almost entirely constant (to my back on the sprint-side of the track), as was its speed. I'd say the differences between speeds due to wind could be as much as plus or minus 1.5 mph (but that is a generous uncertainty, and in the end what matters is not speed but the analysis of the sprint's form and foot position).

Test series one:
Tennis Shoes. In-saddle sprint. Approach to sprint - Spinning. Position - balls of feet.
I started with 17mph on the initial straightaway into the turn and once I passed the start of the opposite 100 meter straightaway I pushed as hard as I could (remember, in-saddle).
Observations: I got to 26.0 mph before the end of the 100 meter stretch. ~75 RPM max before I couldn't keep my feet on the pedals.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Tennis Shoes. Out of saddle sprint. Approach to sprint - Hammering. Position - balls of feet.
Started at same speed on initial straightaway and turn, passing the start of the opposite 100 meter straightaway at 17mph. Began the out of saddle spring and finished with max speed of 27.5.
Observations: Slightly faster than in-saddle spinning, but taking the wind into account, the uncertainty of plus or minus 1.5 mph eliminates the discrepancy. ~70 RPM max before I couldn't keep my feet on the pedals.

Test series two:
SIDI shoes with LOOK style clips. Cheap Nashbar pedal model "Nashbar Special Road Pedal" set to highest tension setting. In saddle sprint. Approach to sprint - Spinning. Position - locked.
Same routine. Crossed the start of the 100 meter straightaway at 17mph.
Began the in-saddle sprint and finished with a max speed of 30.5mph.
Observations: My RPMs were much higher (as I was able to spin without losing my footing) at ~90. During the second 50 meters of the sprint, my upward-bound foot lifted repeatedly from the surface of the sole of its clipless shoe. I did not experience "pulling", or physically pulling the shoes (and thus pedals) up with my foot - only the slight (but real) lifting of my foot from the shoe's sole.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
SIDI shoes with LOOK style clips. Cheap Nashbar pedal model "Nashbar Special Road Pedal" set to highest tension setting. Out of saddle sprint. Approach to sprint - Hammering. Position - locked.
Same routine. Crossed the start of the 100 meter straightaway at 17mph.
Began the hammering, out of saddle sprint and finished with a max speed of 33.0mph.
Observations: My RPMs were higher than the tennis-shoe-hammering sprint at ~80. During the second 50 meters of the sprint, my upward-bound foot lifted repeatedly from the surface of the sole of its clipless shoe. There was pressure on the top of my foot from "pulling" the shoe upwards (my foot was pulling the shoe and was pressed against its top.

To note:
I did not use the same shifting techniques for each test. I shifted opportunely - that is to say I shifted with the intention to get as fast as I could. This involves (for me) spinning high RPMs, even while hammering.
While pedaling, I was trying to test Grant Peterson's point that even the pros "minimize the downward force on the upward-moving pedal more. They don't pull up on it or even unweight it." (quoted directly from article). Thus, I tested to see if in a powerful sprint one's feet lift naturally. See analysis for results.

Analysis:
The clipless pedals were definitely faster. They allowed me to run higher RPMs without the danger of having my feet slip or fly off of the pedals.
The most important thing:
In both tests of series two, my feet lifted from the soles of my SIDIs on the upstroke.
If I had done this with tennis shoes/no clips I would have lifted my foot away from the pedal. Even if I modulated this effect of lifting, I would have such little weight on the pedal in upstroke that my feet would slip off the pedals dangerously.

My feet do not do this during normal pedaling. Truthfully, I noticed on the way to school that I apply surprisingly great pressure downwards on the up stroke. I'm working on modifying this so that I apply as little pressure as possible on the downward stroke (but I don't want to nor think I can make the "pulling" or lifting effects part of a safe, everyday cycling stroke. That must be saved for pure sprints or climbs, if it can be).

I did not go into these tests with the intention of pulling up so hard that I would lift my foot from the soles of my clipless shoes in test series two. I realized before the tests that anyone who tried to do this could, and it would result in an awkward pedaling style (the person would probably be so focused on the upstroke that he/she'd be able to focus less energy into the downstroke, making it counterproductive). I simply tried to eliminate all downward force (this took concentration) while putting as much force into the downstroke with the other leg. I happened to lift my feet, though. (oops :o - but it mounted considerable evidence that Mr. Peterson's claims are false)

These tests strongly support the conclusion that one can (and does) either apply such little weight to the pedal on upstroke that slippage is guaranteed to occur without clipless, or lift one's foot completely from the pedal/shoe-sole surface.

QED. Lol :)

ghettocruiser
10-19-07, 03:08 PM
All my rides are vicious sprints.

Although the above statement is quite false, I kind of like the sound of it.

Banzai
10-19-07, 03:21 PM
Trainers and hundreds of racers have already demonstrated the clear advantages of platforms when it comes to efficiency, which is why they use them almost exclusively in their events. ;)

JeffS
10-19-07, 03:23 PM
All my rides are vicious sprints.

Although the above statement is quite false, I kind of like the sound of it.

I suspect that if you subscribe to the peterson theories and are riding around in your seersucker that none of your rides are vicious sprints.

 this was just a general comment, not directed at ghettocruiser specifically

genec
10-19-07, 03:25 PM
Trainers and hundreds of racers have already demonstrated the clear advantages of platforms when it comes to efficiency, which is why they use them almost exclusively in their events. ;)

"platforms?" really?

Banzai
10-19-07, 03:27 PM
"platforms?" really?

Maybe I should have used more winking smilies at the end of that sentence, since one wasn't enough to convey the dripping sarcasm.

eyemgh
10-19-07, 10:30 PM
Well, in reality platforms are are frequently used preferentially to clipless in the most demanding sprints. It's just that the shoes have cleats and the pedals have straps that basically bolt the shoe to the pedal w/ no hope of unintentional release.

M

vrkelley
10-20-07, 12:24 AM
To the Op. Good tests! Good work! Now that you know this...are you considering racing?

M_S
10-20-07, 01:46 AM
Maybe I should have used more winking smilies at the end of that sentence, since one wasn't enough to convey the dripping sarcasm.

You should know better than to rely on subtlety on this place, even if it is blatantly un-subtle.

Sammyboy
10-20-07, 01:46 AM
Thing is Peterson expressly states that hard sprinting is one of the few places that being clipped in is a positive advantage. This didn't show anything to disprove what he stated. What he ACTUALLY said was that in normal riding, ie, what 95% of us are doing 95% of the time, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

I should point out, I disagree with him, at least regarding clips and straps. I hate clipless, because of the special shoes, and because of falling on my arse over and over, but I love clips and straps, regardless of whether I'm hard sprinting, because they keep my feet correctly located on the pedals, and prevent them slipping off. My most painful ever accident happened pulling away from the kerb on an empty street in the drizzle. My right foot slipped off the pedal, hit the floor, and the pedal hit me in the back of the calf, gouging me quite badly, and throwing me over the bars, I ended up with my bars and seat out of whack, numerous bruises, a gouge out of the back of my leg, and several other cuts from the bike landing on me. Wouldn't have happened had I had clips and straps.

DoB
10-20-07, 06:48 AM
My most painful ever accident happened pulling away from the kerb on an empty street in the drizzle. My right foot slipped off the pedal, hit the floor, and the pedal hit me in the back of the calf, gouging me quite badly, and throwing me over the bars, I ended up with my bars and seat out of whack, numerous bruises, a gouge out of the back of my leg, and several other cuts from the bike landing on me. Wouldn't have happened had I had clips and straps.

One accident like that justifies a lifetime of riding with clips or clipless, doesn't it? I've done the old slipping off the pedal trick myself and it invariably causes some big time pain.

I happen to prefer clipless on my commuter and toe clips on my 'round town bike (so I can wear street shoes). I ride with a fast cadence / low torque and I like having my feet attached. It's more comfortable and I'd just as soon avoid ever wracking myself on the bike again when a foot slips off.

I guess I really don't know if it is more efficient or not.

I-Like-To-Bike
10-20-07, 06:50 AM
Trainers and hundreds of racers have already demonstrated the clear advantages of platforms when it comes to efficiency, which is why they use them almost exclusively in their events. ;)

What exactly is the relevance for commuting cyclists, of the opinions of trainers and hundreds of racers on the most efficient technique meant for the specialized realm of bike racing?

Sammyboy
10-20-07, 07:18 AM
One accident like that justifies a lifetime of riding with clips or clipless, doesn't it? I've done the old slipping off the pedal trick myself and it invariably causes some big time pain.

Yep, pretty much. I do use platforms on a couple of bikes, notably those I wear my office shoes with (clips scuff the ends unacceptably). I'm even considering Powergrips for those.

SSP
10-20-07, 09:53 AM
What exactly is the relevance for commuting cyclists, of the opinions of trainers and hundreds of racers on the most efficient technique meant for the specialized realm of bike racing?

For some commuters...none at all.

But, for many of us, the joys of commuting include:

the fitness benefits, and
the ease with which we can incorporate "training time" into our busy lives.

Last month, I commuted for several weeks on a full-on time trial bike (see below). The commutes helped me to get my position on the bike sorted out, and the training helped me to win one bronze, one silver, and two gold medals at the Huntsman World Senior Games (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=351911) last week.
http://www.cyclistats.com/biketours/2007SeniorGames/TTWarmup_web.jpg

As for the question of platform vs. clipless vs. straps:

I've ridden with all three, and much prefer clipless. However, I'm currently building up an around town bike that will use Shimano's PD-M324 pedals...clipless SPD on one side, and platform on the other (for those quick trips to the grocery store).

SSP
10-20-07, 10:43 AM
Thing is Peterson expressly states that hard sprinting is one of the few places that being clipped in is a positive advantage. This didn't show anything to disprove what he stated. What he ACTUALLY said was that in normal riding, ie, what 95% of us are doing 95% of the time, the disadvantages outweigh the advantages.

I should point out, I disagree with him, at least regarding clips and straps. I hate clipless, because of the special shoes, and because of falling on my arse over and over, but I love clips and straps, regardless of whether I'm hard sprinting, because they keep my feet correctly located on the pedals, and prevent them slipping off. My most painful ever accident happened pulling away from the kerb on an empty street in the drizzle. My right foot slipped off the pedal, hit the floor, and the pedal hit me in the back of the calf, gouging me quite badly, and throwing me over the bars, I ended up with my bars and seat out of whack, numerous bruises, a gouge out of the back of my leg, and several other cuts from the bike landing on me. Wouldn't have happened had I had clips and straps.

If you're falling on your arse over and over with clipless...something's wrong. For most folks, clipless are a no-brainer - "click" you're in, and "click" you're out.

After riding with straps for years, for me the transition to clipless was reasonably painless. And I find it much easier to quickly get out of clipless than to get out of straps...and easier to get locked in too (though I usually trackstand at intersections, so that's a non-issue for me).

Barabaika
10-20-07, 10:52 AM
Why didn't you test the theory that it's less dangerous to have platform pedals for a commuter bike that allow to stop and wait at every intersection than to run red lights and stop signs in order to avoid unclipping clipless pedals?

SSP
10-20-07, 11:15 AM
Why didn't you test the theory that it's less dangerous to have platform pedals for a commuter bike that allow to stop and wait at every intersection than to run red lights and stop signs in order to avoid unclipping clipless pedals?

Sounds bogus to me...unclipping at a light or intersection is a no-brainer with modern clipless pedals.

I doubt that the choice of pedal has any relationship with red-light running behavior.

Banzai
10-20-07, 11:24 AM
What exactly is the relevance for commuting cyclists, of the opinions of trainers and hundreds of racers on the most efficient technique meant for the specialized realm of bike racing?

The OP was running a test, insofar as I could tell, concerning efficiency. I'll go read the text again, but I don't think the test involved the ease and efficiency of walking through the grocery store after a short ride to pick up some bread.

But I could be wrong. Was that 30 mph walking down the frozen food aisle?

To my poor reading comprehension skills it seemed the OP was attempting to test the efficiency involved in making his bike go, as well as some of the more subtle aspects of Mr. Peterson's hypothesis about foot lift, etc. I thought I'd make a seemingly relevant comment about speed and efficiency in generating it.

To illustrate my impartiality on this, I have two "commuters"...one with platforms and trekking bars, the other with clipless. The bike with clipless makes most of the commutes, though I prize my other bike for short casual rides. So I wouldn't say that my clipless pedals only have a place in the "specialized realm" of bike racing. They do pretty well in the specialized realm of my commutes and errand running.

And a recessed cleat with egg beaters even makes it simple to pick up that loaf of bread.

Banzai
10-20-07, 11:26 AM
Why didn't you test the theory that it's less dangerous to have platform pedals for a commuter bike that allow to stop and wait at every intersection than to run red lights and stop signs in order to avoid unclipping clipless pedals?

Ummmm...uncliping isn't that hard. It takes about one extra movement of your foot more to step off the pedal.

Your theory isn't about clipless pedals, it's about the mentality of a particular rider on a particular day.

Barabaika
10-20-07, 11:52 AM
Your theory isn't about clipless pedals, it's about the mentality of a particular rider on a particular day.
Well, it's possible to expand this theory.

There are bikes that are good for stop-and-go traffic; and there are those that are not.
Look at the photo of a trial biker above. I'm sure his bike is not comfortable for the city traffic, and he will try to avoid stops.

SSP
10-20-07, 12:09 PM
Well, it's possible to expand this theory.

There are bikes that are good for stop-and-go traffic; and there are those that are not.
Look at the photo of a trial biker above. I'm sure his bike is not comfortable for the city traffic, and he will try to avoid stops.

I agree that my time trial bike is not appropriate for urban cycling...but, not because of the clipless pedal system.

It's inappropriate because of:

the riding position,
the fact that my hands are not near the brakes when on the aero bars, and
the brakes themselves are not very good (due to the use of "soft" carbon brake pads to help extend the life of those expensive wheels).

That said, no matter what bike I'm commuting on, I stop for red lights (though I'll also roll through 4-way stop signs if there's no other traffic in sight). But that has more to do with common sense and safety than a desire to avoid unclipping.

slvoid
10-20-07, 12:20 PM
...., hit the floor, and the pedal hit me in the back of the calf, gouging me quite badly, and throwing me over the bars, I ended up with my bars and seat out of whack, numerous bruises, a gouge out of the back of my leg, and several other cuts from the bike landing on me. Wouldn't have happened had I had clips and straps.

It wouldn't have happened either if you were more careful and aware of the situation.

Barabaika
10-20-07, 12:55 PM
But that has more to do with common sense and safety than a desire to avoid unclipping.
How long does it take to start riding from a complete stop on this trial bike?
Possibly, a minute. A bad position, an unsuitable cassette, uncomfortable pedals, etc.
What if there are stops every 500 ft? You probably won't go much faster than a person on a commuter bike, and lose at every intersection.

Compare it to this commuter bike:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1104/930560218_bab5900d21.jpg

A casual skirt, high-heel boots, coffee, etc.
How would she clip her boots?

SSP
10-20-07, 01:15 PM
How long does it take to start riding from a complete stop on this trial bike?
Possibly, a minute.

What are you talking about? I can get under way very quickly on the TT bike or my road bike. At most intersections, I don't even put my feet down (I can trackstand the bike for a minute or longer). I also use the red-to-green transition to work on my sprinting and routinely out-accelerate cars for the first 25 meters or so.

A bad position, an unsuitable cassette, uncomfortable pedals, etc.
What if there are stops every 500 ft? You probably won't go much faster than a person on a commuter bike, and lose at every intersection.

I've already admitted that the TT bike is not well-suited for urban cycling. But, I used it for my commutes to get in extra training time, and because my regular road bike was in the shop for repairs. The cassette is suitable for my needs, and the pedals are not at all "uncomfortable".

As for me not going much faster than a person on a "commuter bike"...that's simply not true. I'd guess the gal on the bike in the photo below averages less than 10 mph while under way...I tend to average a bit more than 20 mph.

Compare it to this commuter bike:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1104/930560218_bab5900d21.jpg

A casual skirt, high-heel boots, coffee, etc.
How would she clip her boots?

Those *are* some nice boots! ;) And, if I commuted in "street clothes", having platform pedals might be something to consider. But, I commute in "bike-specific clothing" (including shoes), so that's a non-issue for me.

JusticeZero
10-20-07, 01:56 PM
I do my commuting in street shoes. I use clips on my pedals. You won't see me in clipless anytime soon; I wear 12EEEEEE shoes in below freezing weather and i'm not keen on freezing my feet solid with shoes that I would have to have custom made for me in the first place. I do fine with lifting up on the toe clips.
My bike is closer to the one being ridden by the woman in the picture than the street rocket racer roady, and I cover about 10 miles in 45 minutes - not many intersections, but plenty of hills that drop me down to the lowest couple gears. I'm by no means a strong rider, I just came off of two years of being sedentary living next door to everything I needed.

DoB
10-20-07, 03:00 PM
It wouldn't have happened either if you were more careful and aware of the situation.

Isn't that kind of the case for all accidents? Are you suggesting that everyone who has ever had an accident of any kind is a careless idiot?

So instead of doing things in out life that reduce our chances of accidents I guess we should all be perfect, aware and careful people like you.

DoB
10-20-07, 03:02 PM
What if there are stops every 500 ft? You probably won't go much faster than a person on a commuter bike, and lose at every intersection.

If there were stops every 500 feet on my 25 mile daily ride I don't think it would be feasible for me.

I also doubt the pictured woman is doing a 25 mile RT commute on that bike.

I-Like-To-Bike
10-20-07, 03:19 PM
The OP was running a test, insofar as I could tell, concerning efficiency. I'll go read the text again, but I don't think the test involved the ease and efficiency of walking through the grocery store after a short ride to pick up some bread.

But I could be wrong. Was that 30 mph walking down the frozen food aisle?
You are wrong only when you think you think the appropriate places for posting the recommended efficiency techniques/equipment for racing events belongs in the commuting forum. Commuting IS more about going to the store for a loaf of bread (or going to work to earn it) than training for the next "event." Except for the Real Cyclists' brand of commuting.

SSP
10-20-07, 05:05 PM
You are wrong only when you think you think the appropriate places for posting the recommended efficiency techniques/equipment for racing events belongs in the commuting forum. Commuting IS more about going to the store for a loaf of bread (or going to work to earn it) than training for the next "event." Except for the Real Cyclists' brand of commuting.

Well, I'm glad we got that straightened out. :rolleyes:

As has been pointed out to you previously, many of us who commute by bike enjoy it because it's an easy way to incorporate extra miles and training time into our busy lives. As such, we're interested in tools and techniques that can assist us in our quest for fitness and efficiency on the bike.

Of course, those are all non-issues if you're a a member of the Real Slow Cyclists' brand of commuting, but hopefully there's room enough in this forum for both.

Banzai
10-20-07, 05:48 PM
You are wrong only when you think you think the appropriate places for posting the recommended efficiency techniques/equipment for racing events belongs in the commuting forum. Commuting IS more about going to the store for a loaf of bread (or going to work to earn it) than training for the next "event." Except for the Real Cyclists' brand of commuting.

I'm glad you are here to tell me what I'm wrong to talk about. Please explain to me the topics I am allowed to discuss in the commuting forum. I missed the allowed discussion points obviously, but I certainly don't want to say things that ILTB thinks I shouldn't say.

I thought I had pointed out that clipless was actually not specifically for racing, but that racing is a pursuit that certainly has a corner on power efficiency. Sure is good to know I screwed that up too.

I will be much happier if you will help me to be a true commuter, as opposed to the fake one I am now, by telling me how my convenient recessed cleat egg-beater clipless system is hindering my trip to the grocery store and only helping me train for the next "event".

Here I was, trying to stay on-topic with the OPs attempt to define and test an hypothesis. Absolutely ridiculous! He shouldn't have even started this thread! That I even let myself get suckered into a thread started by one of the so-called Real Cyclists...if we're not careful, those factinistas will be swarming the commuting forum, telling stories about their so-called commutes when all they care about is their next event. It's like stealing food right out of my mouth...especially if they beat me to the grocery store with enough time to still crawl on all fours to the bread aisle before I can beat them to it!

THAT'S IT, Real Cyclists...you are officially ON NOTICE! Don't think you can infiltrate our borders like this and get away with it. I'm watching you now that I've been shown the error of my ways!

(Yes, I realize that even responding to the above post has diminished me as a person, but I was overwhelmed by a wave of sarcasm.) :D

Banzai
10-20-07, 05:51 PM
I also doubt the pictured woman is doing a 25 mile RT commute on that bike.

No, but whatever she's doing...she looks good doing it! :D

(Beautiful woman commuting on a bicycle...I'm in love!)

On a serious note, it could be argued that the coffee would make her less inclined to stop. Continued forward motion makes it easier to balance and sip said coffee. Stopping may entail the need for both hands, resulting in a catastrophic spill.

Barabaika
10-20-07, 07:41 PM
And, if I commuted in "street clothes", having platform pedals might be something to consider. But, I commute in "bike-specific clothing" (including shoes), so that's a non-issue for me.
Well, if she and you both commute, for example, 3 miles, she will win with ease even going 5 mph.
She doesn't need time to put on and take off special biking clothes and shoes.

On a serious note, it could be argued that the coffee would make her less inclined to stop. Continued forward motion makes it easier to balance and sip said coffee. Stopping may entail the need for both hands, resulting in a catastrophic spill.
If her bike has a coaster brake, she can stop by backpedaling. No need for both hands.

slvoid
10-20-07, 07:47 PM
Isn't that kind of the case for all accidents? Are you suggesting that everyone who has ever had an accident of any kind is a careless idiot?

So instead of doing things in out life that reduce our chances of accidents I guess we should all be perfect, aware and careful people like you.

Ha.. yeah me, careful, you must be new around here.
I'm suggesting that anyone who keeps having accidents that the majority of people seem to avoid is absolutely a careless idiot, you're right. Real careless.

slvoid
10-20-07, 07:48 PM
No, but whatever she's doing...she looks good doing it! :D

(Beautiful woman commuting on a bicycle...I'm in love!)

On a serious note, it could be argued that the coffee would make her less inclined to stop. Continued forward motion makes it easier to balance and sip said coffee. Stopping may entail the need for both hands, resulting in a catastrophic spill.

That's exactly why I seem to stop less on my track bike or when I'm eating or holding the phone while I'm riding.

Lamplight
10-20-07, 08:24 PM
I don't doubt that clipless pedals make for a more efficient pedal stroke than platform pedals. But to be honest, the bikes I usually commute on are a 24 year old touring bike and a 45+ pound 14 year old mtb with a homemade light (and a lead acid battery) and tires that probably weigh over two pounds a piece. I'm obviously not too concerned about squeezing out every ounce of efficiency. :D I am, however, concerned about being able to hop on a bike without "suiting up". :o

I-Like-To-Bike
10-20-07, 10:00 PM
Here I was, trying to stay on-topic with the OPs attempt to define and test an hypothesis. Absolutely ridiculous! He shouldn't have even started this thread!
Correct. It belongs in the Road Cycling list where the subject is relevant.

M_S
10-20-07, 11:27 PM
Correct. It belongs in the Road Cycling list where the subject is relevant.

And what about the many people on here who commute 20 miles each way? Increased efficiency may indeed mean quite a bit to them.

And what about my case? My commute is short, but I only have one bike in my dorm room, and I also like to do recreational riding. According to you, it seems, my options are:

1) Get a set of platform pedals and switch them out every time I want to commute. I'm skeptical that this would in fact be more conventiant than simply changing my shoes at work (which I don't always do anyways, since I have recessed cleats).

2) Get a set of platform pedals and keep them on. I suppose I could do my 100 mile ride tomorrow with platforms, as well as race cyclocross, but no thank you.

3) Stop commuting by bike.

I think I'll just continue using clipless, even if it means I'm not actually commuting.

BarracksSi
10-20-07, 11:30 PM
Okay, this is getting ********.

If clipless pedals can help with efficiency, then wouldn't it be a good idea for -- oh, let me guess -- commuting??

If we were talking about cars, some of you would be crapping on fuel-efficient cars as a stupid idea for the daily hour-long drive to work.

This retro-grouch, "I'm so hardcore that I ride on wooden wheels" bull**** is some of the stupidest stuff I've ever read. If I'm carrying five hundred pounds of gear to the office, you can be damned sure I'm going to find every way possible to get every bit of my pedaling strength to the ground.

SSP
10-20-07, 11:46 PM
ILTB is the resident curmudgeon. He commutes (slowly) on a heavy bike fitted with a nasty-looking 30 year old leather saddle, and seems to believe that everyone else should too.

Apparently, he has "issues" with anyone who:

rides for fitness or speed
wears lycra
rides carbon fiber
rides clipless
posts about these topics in "his" Commuting forum

It's been pointed out to him on numerous occasions that people commute by bike for many reasons...and that many of us are interested in discussing modern cycling accessories and techniques in this context. But he persists in his curmudgeonly quest to define what a "Real Commuter" should look like and ride, and attempt to disparage those who think differently.

BTW, you'll know you've upset him when he starts calling you a "racer boy".

M_S
10-21-07, 12:27 AM
I guess since I currently ride a modern touring bike, I'm almost but not quite there. :rolleyes:

I have been annoyed with the trollish content of ILTB's comments before. I really don;t understand what his problem is.

Sammyboy
10-21-07, 01:57 AM
It wouldn't have happened either if you were more careful and aware of the situation.

This is not accurate. I'm careful, and aware, and in, what, 30 years of cycling now, I've avoided this happening every time but once. I rode that bike 10 miles a day every day summer and winter for two years. No matter how careful you are, sometimes things go wrong. Additionally, even without that aspect, I much prefer the feeling of my feet being anchored in pedals, and am often aware of pulling up when climbing, or sprinting onto a roundabout (commuting often involves a lot of sprinting, IMO). I don't mind other people not liking clips and straps, or preferring clipless, for me, the clips and straps are optimal. I can do without them, and indeed, I like not having to faff with the pedal while pulling away, but on balance, I wish they were there.

I-Like-To-Bike
10-21-07, 07:16 AM
I have been annoyed with the trollish content of ILTB's comments before. I really don;t understand what his problem is.

The "problem" is your inability to comprehend an idea or a concept that doesn't fit your own frame of reference, i.e. all bicycling issues revolve around racing efficiency. Hence for you any other opinion offered must be trollish.

Testing Grant Peterson's theories of pedaling efficiency and the opinions of racers and trainers for the most efficient techniques for "events" is not really a commuting issue but might fit well on the Roadie, Touring or Racer lists. Sure those techniques might be of interest to some commuters, but then so might some mountain biking techniques or BMX, or Car Free ideas, or even some classic and vintage tips. Maybe BF Forums should only have one discussion list since there might be some crossover, for the likes of yourself who don't want to discuss the subject in the most appropriate list, eh? Understand now, Jack?

BarracksSi
10-21-07, 07:48 AM
The "problem" is your inability to comprehend an idea or a concept that doesn't fit your own frame of reference, i.e. all bicycling issues revolve around racing efficiency. Hence for you any other opinion offered must be trollish.

Testing Grant Peterson's theories of pedaling efficiency and the opinions of racers and trainers for the most efficient techniques for "events" is not really a commuting issue but might fit well on the Roadie, Touring or Racer lists. Sure those techniques might be of interest to some commuters, but then so might some mountain biking techniques or BMX, or Car Free ideas, or even some classic and vintage tips. Maybe BF Forums should only have one discussion list since there might be some crossover, for the likes of yourself who don't want to discuss the subject in the most appropriate list, eh? Understand now, Jack?

*COUGH*WHEEZE*OBNOXIOUS THROAT CLEARING* Um... You're really not making any sense. Sorry.

Earlier:

Okay, this is getting ********.

If clipless pedals can help with efficiency, then wouldn't it be a good idea for -- oh, let me guess -- commuting??

If we were talking about cars, some of you would be crapping on fuel-efficient cars as a stupid idea for the daily hour-long drive to work.

This retro-grouch, "I'm so hardcore that I ride on wooden wheels" bull**** is some of the stupidest stuff I've ever read. If I'm carrying five hundred pounds of gear to the office, you can be damned sure I'm going to find every way possible to get every bit of my pedaling strength to the ground.

Any more of this **** and my ignore list gains another member.

BarracksSi
10-21-07, 07:58 AM

The "problem" is your inability to comprehend an idea or a concept that doesn't fit your own frame of reference, i.e. all bicycling issues revolve around racing efficiency.

You can stop right there. Bicycling has been all about efficiency from the start, and has nothing to do with racing. People bike to get somewhere relatively quickly with less effort and more flexibility than by using other methods.

Your complaint that the quest for efficiency is only applicable to racing, then, is a completely invalid complaint.

You should take the chain off your bike, since it's obviously a mechanism designed for increasing efficiency. So are the wire-spoked wheels with pneumatic tires. You have to ditch your metal frame, too, since it's lighter yet stronger than a wood frame.

Come back to BF when you've reached your Holy Grail of slow, heavy bicycling. Until the, you can just shut your hole.

I-Like-To-Bike
10-21-07, 08:34 AM
Any more of this **** and my ignore list gains another member.
Oh My! :eek: Is that a threat, insult or a boast?:cry:
IMO, it is just another silly Jack Donkey boasting with pride about his technique for avoiding any potential negative waves that might upset his emotional equillibrium and tender sensibilities. ;)

BarracksSi
10-21-07, 08:45 AM
Oh My! :eek: Is that a threat, insult or a boast?:cry:
IMO, it is just another silly Jack Donkey boasting with pride about his technique for avoiding any potential negative waves that might upset his emotional equillibrium and tender sensibilities. ;)

Wow, what a **** you are. Goodbye.

Banzai
10-21-07, 09:35 AM
Firstly, my apologies to the OP for ALLOWING ILTB to drag myself and others into a pissing match on this thread, especially when you obviously put some thought and effort into that post and probably wanted a little more discussion about it.

Secondly, being familiar with ILTB's narrow concept and unexplainable anger over what a "True Commuter" should be, I stated earlier that I knew even responding to his post diminished me as a person. It somehow lends a little bit of validation to some of his ridiculous statements while dragging me into a fruitless use of my time. Ever see an adult actually "argue" with a two year old? It's just that silly.

Finally, however...I couldn't help myself. Obviously there are several others who couldn't either. ILTB's growling and curmudgeonly posts are what they are, and typically I easily dismiss them as wrong-headed. But this was a new step; instead of simply saying something angry and ridiculous...he decided to tell me (and others) what I can and cannot say on "Commuting". Which, I suppose, is a new way to "win" a debate/discussion; no one is ALLOWED to post anything that differs from your own viewpoint.

That pegged out my "you are full of \$#!T meter".

If I COMMUTE (i.e. run errands, go to work, or other "utility" transportation use of a bicyle) with:

-A CF Cervelo racing bike and full lycra.
-A single speed/fixed gear.
-A CX bike with or without clipless.
-A MTB with full suspension and shredded up camoflage shorts.
-A recumbent bike.
-A touring bike with or without disc brakes.

I'll discuss it here. And so will others. Just so you know, ILTB, the commuting forum IS that nightmare of a "crossover" forum you alluded to. It's a "pluralistic society" if you will, and no matter how silly I may personally think it is to commute on a full suspension MTB with knobby tires...guess what?

They can discuss here, on the Commuting forum.

SSP
10-21-07, 09:44 AM
^^^^^^^^^^^^
:beer::beer::beer:

Very well said!

plodderslusk
10-21-07, 10:03 AM
At 50 I have biked more than half my life anchored to the pedals with either clips and straps or clipless pedals. I simply do not feel safe riding with my feet loose on the pedals. I would of course get used to it if I tried but why I should is beyond me. If someone likes to go slow and use platforms (or fast for that matter), it is perfectly OK with me. I like the control over the bike that clipless gives me, and I like to get to work and back home as fast as I can. Cudos to the OP for putting the issue to a real test.

BarracksSi
10-21-07, 10:06 AM
They can discuss here, on the Commuting forum.

Yup. Commuting, at its core, is about getting there.