That motorist isnt arrogantly holding up a line of bicycles or other vehicles.
The difference you guys just cant seem to understand.

Lem, I've offered this analogy up before but I'll throw it out again. It applies to where I live but things may be slightly different where you live. Bear with me anyway :) Let's say you decide to leave your neighborhood in your car. To do so, you must turn left on to a 4 lane arterial. There is a traffic light at that intersection where you make the turn. In order for you to make that left in your motor vehicle, which is capable of travelling at the same speed as other traffic, you must bring 4 lanes of traffic on a high speed arterial to a STOP to do so. Also, any other time where you trigger a red light to turn green in your favor, you are causing other motorists to STOP because you want to travel on the same road. Seems pretty arrogant to me as long as we're calling a cyclist arrogant for travelling at 15mph and occassionally holding up a few motorists for 30 seconds or so.

Shedding the big boy play toy image would be beneficial to cyclists, imo.

How is this any different than a Harley rider? My theory is motorists mess with bicyclists because most of the time they can. Motorized vs non-motorized, who wins that chase? Now if a motorist knew that a bicyclist can not only keep up with them and kick their a**, you bet they'd be more respectful. Motorist bullies are called cagers for a reason.

But I do not want to be associated with the kind of riders that come through my neck of the woods on weekends, dressed in superhero costumes while rudely blocking up traffic.

Speaking of superheros and blocking traffic, the theme of a recent local Critical Mass ride was "Dress like a Super Hero Day." :)

How "arrogant" are those Amish who block traffic with their horses and buggies? And I can't believe the arrogance of these people blocking the traffic in these images below! People on the way to work and on their way to recreational activities like the beach and shopping for shoes and going to the restaurant. It's so unbelievably rude that people would use the roads like that for traffic!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/196792901_422ddcfd57_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/196792901/) http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1331/872001347_7c94999e3b_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/872001347/) http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1088/565990656_f32258e8f1_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/565990656/) http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1332/565992024_bb314bc468_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/565992024/)

Photos by me, most of them from my bike.

That motorist isnt arrogantly holding up a line of bicycles or other vehicles.

Oh?

This is US Highway 66 north of Longmont, Colorado. Many of the people in this photo are headed to Rocky Mountain National Park for, presumably, recreational activity. Others might be headed to mountain towns along the way, or to Carter Lake. Do you view them as "arrogantly holding up a line of vehicles"? Or do you view it simply as traffic? Note that the only bicyclists in this line of traffic (including myself) are far over in the shoulder.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/42/93421166_98bb1f25aa_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/93421166/)

Here's another one -- weekend visitors to Tijuana return through the border crossing into San Diego. Traffic is backed up for I don't know how far. It's a Sunday evening, so presumably many of these folks are returning from a quick weekend trip to this border town. Are these people all "arrogantly holding up a line of vehicles"? Or is it just traffic?

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/229/451921217_8869e94bf3_m.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/451921217/)

I live in Santa Cruz County, California. Beach traffic on summer weekends is REGULARLY backed up from the beach, all the way past my home 5 miles away, and 10 miles and more beyond into the Santa Cruz mountains. It can take nearly two hours to get from my home to the main hospital 9 miles away in Santa Cruz on beautiful summer days, and its not because of the bikes on the road. Bikes aren't the problem, Fem, cars are.

This guy caused me delay and he wasn't dressed like a superhero:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuqKE7rXwbQ

Al

^^^
I always find it interesting that motorists go out of their way to avoid eye contact.

^^^
I always find it interesting that motorists go out of their way to avoid eye contact.

You noticed that right away as well. If I was not there any normal motorist would be looking left (toward me) on occassion in order to hold the gap to pull into, instead he's straining to look as far right as possible.

(Notice, Brian, how I don't cut thru parking lots, even to save time - as related to another discussion we had. I would have cut in front of the car, but the space was too narrow, so I waited, patiently)

Al

How the heck does one or two or a dozen bicycle riders clogging up the road seem equivalent in your minds to endless lines of rush hour traffic? Those few bicycle riders CAN pull over to let others pass, but they often don't. Rush hour traffic is just congestion. Nobody can get out of anybody's way no matter how much they'd like to.

The bigger the group of these cyclists, the flashier their clothing and bicycles, and the more recreational in nature their riding is, the more they will block traffic for NO REASON. And because their billboard-like clothing is such a distinguishing characteristic, the hatred they instill spills over to the regular people who wear the clothing "for comfort" or whatever even if they aren't doing any of those arrogant racer-boy traffic-blocking things.

Hence the reason why the guy who started this thread says he won't wear the clothing. He simply doesn't want to be a target for retaliation that is instilled in drivers who have seen a few too many Lance wannabes blocking the road for no reason. I can understand that.

Nobody can get out of anybody's way no matter how much they'd like to.
They could bicycle, motorcycle, or take public transport to work. The could move closer to work.

Instead these ass-clowns in their flashy over sized vehicles take up far more room than they need.

Al

Lem, I've offered this analogy up before but I'll throw it out again. It applies to where I live but things may be slightly different where you live. Bear with me anyway :) Let's say you decide to leave your neighborhood in your car. To do so, you must turn left on to a 4 lane arterial. There is a traffic light at that intersection where you make the turn. In order for you to make that left in your motor vehicle, which is capable of travelling at the same speed as other traffic, you must bring 4 lanes of traffic on a high speed arterial to a STOP to do so. Also, any other time where you trigger a red light to turn green in your favor, you are causing other motorists to STOP because you want to travel on the same road. Seems pretty arrogant to me as long as we're calling a cyclist arrogant for travelling at 15mph and occassionally holding up a few motorists for 30 seconds or so.

Ive already entered into the realm of postage that I like to avoid, ie; unnecessary confrontationalism.
We have to agree to disagree. Richard MAsoner(above) gave me pause to think because when
I moved to Amish country I would regularly tell the new development yups at the Twp. meetings
to move back to philly if they dont like slowing for the buggies. Oh well......I guess I showed me :eek:
At my age and personality type I try to avoid confrontation of any type. I am happy to move over
and laff at angry old people and rednecks dragrace to the stoplite 500 yards up the road. This is what
works for me. Obviously, it doesnt for other people. I personally would love it if bike riders
were feared like Harley riders....poeple wold give us room because they would be terrified
that we might catch them at the next lite and eat their puppies. Until then, I think there is
room for both types of advocacy.....yours and mine.

be safe.....

How the heck does one or two or a dozen bicycle riders clogging up the road seem equivalent in your minds to endless lines of rush hour traffic? Those few bicycle riders CAN pull over to let others pass, but they often don't. Rush hour traffic is just congestion. Nobody can get out of anybody's way no matter how much they'd like to.

The bigger the group of these cyclists, the flashier their clothing and bicycles, and the more recreational in nature their riding is, the more they will block traffic for NO REASON. And because their billboard-like clothing is such a distinguishing characteristic, the hatred they instill spills over to the regular people who wear the clothing "for comfort" or whatever even if they aren't doing any of those arrogant racer-boy traffic-blocking things.

Hence the reason why the guy who started this thread says he won't wear the clothing. He simply doesn't want to be a target for retaliation that is instilled in drivers who have seen a few too many Lance wannabes blocking the road for no reason. I can understand that.

Diane, your ignorance is astounding. How often do you (yes, you personally, not times you've heard about it on the internets) encounter these arrogant racer-boy recreational riders in their flashy clothing blocking all traffic from passing on a road for a lengthy period of time? How long, on average, have they delayed you (how much actual time was added to your trip)?

Diane, your ignorance is astounding. How often do you (yes, you personally, not times you've heard about it on the internets) encounter these arrogant racer-boy recreational riders in their flashy clothing blocking all traffic from passing on a road for a lengthy period of time? How long, on average, have they delayed you (how much actual time was added to your trip)?

Travel up Kings Mountain here and there is no safe place to pass. I wait behind cyclists patiently for quite a bit.
I've seen riders in group rides, ahead of me, not get out of the way of traffic when they easily could, for a couple of minutes. This is even on roads with a nice clean bike lane that the rest of us are riding in.
These "arrogant riders" have screamed obscenities at me for stopping at a stop sign or red light(right turn) in front of them even though I got over to the right, signaled the stop and called it out.

These "arrogant riders" have screamed obscenities at me for stopping at a stop sign or red light(right turn) in front of them even though I got over to the right, signaled the stop and called it out.
The very same ones?

The very same ones?


HA ha, no the arrogant ones are the ones screaming. Not much wind left in the ones climbing Kings Mountain. Kings Mountain is just too dangerous to even pass one person hugging the right edge of the road, so you have to wait almost all the way up.

I've read these and other stats before and of course they confirm my statements that the savings is mere seconds in miles of riding. To a real racing cyclist, in a race that is important but to the rest of us, it makes little difference in our day except to boost our egos.

Rude cyclists wear all types of stuff but it does seem that the majority are "serious" lycra clad males between 18-35 who transport their bike on a roof rack from the city to ride in the country. We see them all the time......

I purposely dress different (more like I normally do) to disassociate myself with them. Plaid hunting shirts and regular sweats with ankle high work boots work fine..........for me. :eek:
I know its not fashionable but I'm just a dumb old country boy.

I suppose I could let you positon go without comment, but it was entirely too inflamatory. If you said that there are too many lycra clad cyclist abusing road position, I would agree with you. I have seen my share of them as well. Then again, in my neighborhood there are too many kids and adults on these small "jump bikes" zipping in and out all over the sidewalk and street. While I feel the behavior is irresponsible, I don't attack the whole group of people for it. However, you seem to take an extreme position.

1st paragraph:
It is wrong to assume that MOST cyclists wear lycra for reduced wind resistance/speed. We wear it because it is comfortable, breathable, and transports sweat away for our bodies, making for a more comfortable workout. If in doubt, try riding on a hot day in a t-shirt. Once in has become saturated with sweat, you will be dying to take it off

2nd paragraph:
Most serious road cyclists. Boy! This stinks of prejudice. I don't know where you live, drive and bike, but I find the opposite to be true. There are a few cyclists who take themselves, their bikes and bike gear way too seriously, but to say that most of these offenders are "serious cyclists" is a stretch. It is also a slap in the face. Sorry you feel that way, but I think you need some therapy.

3rd paragraph:
This is a strange reaction. You associate the garb with the behavior attributing it to a whole group. Boy is that wrong-headed. Please rethink your paradynes. Again, please seek professional help.

You say that you are "Not just a dumb old country boy", but if I were to take your strategy, that is exactly what I would deduce about you. You sound like someone right out of the old comedy show "Hee Haw". Yes, I am certain that is not really true of you, but that is exactly what you have done to a lot of cyclists. That's why you got so many "hits" for this topic.

"How you gon' win when you ain't right within?"
"Think again"
- EVE

Last I checked there was no shortage of arrogant pricks of all varieties. Arrogant cyclists, arrogant motorists, etc, etc.

People are arrogant. I am arrogant. So what? Being arrogant isn't illegal. At least arrogant cyclists don't put other people's lives in grave danger like arrogant motorists do. Arrogant cyclists should be commended for choosing to be the *******s that they are while riding low momentum vehicles instead of high momentum vehicles (which are more likely to kill someone).

Like the drunkard that takes a cab home instead of driving, arrogant cyclists are responsibly arrogant.


I personally would never move over for a car. They have the faster vehicle. Let them make up for lost time when we part ways.

So you do use 'special' undergarments for cycling. What difference does it make if people use cycling shorts for those special undergarments or 'athletic underwear'?

Al

It really makes no difference to me, its just that I think "skin tights" are embarrassing and funny looking when off the bike, since I wouldn't choose to wear them in daily life. Its kind of like wearing a speedo to a wedding.
Plus........I think them unnecessary since baggies work fine as do sweats and looser fitting more versatile out door type clothing that you can both ride in and be seen in public with. I guess I react to the lumpy adult diaper look and feel as well. It all seems like its gotten out of hand with cyclists thinking they need skin tight clothing, gels, hydration packs and every conceivable gadget to ride a bike for exercise and transportation.
It just makes cycling kind appear odd to the rest of the world when it really doesn't have to be. ;)

^^^
Meh. I got over that a long time ago.

What a double standard. We'd all be oggling the slender woman who showed herself in tights.

It really makes no difference to me, its just that I think "skin tights" are embarrassing and funny looking when off the bike, since I wouldn't choose to wear them in daily life. Its kind of like wearing a speedo to a wedding.
Plus........I think them unnecessary since baggies work fine as do sweats and looser fitting more versatile out door type clothing that you can both ride in and be seen in public with. I guess I react to the lumpy adult diaper look and feel as well. It all seems like its gotten out of hand with cyclists thinking they need skin tight clothing, gels, hydration packs and every conceivable gadget to ride a bike for exercise and transportation.
It just makes cycling kind appear odd to the rest of the world when it really doesn't have to be. ;)

You've lost track of the conversation:

First I said I wear cycling shorts under regular shorts for errands where I spend considerable time off the bike.
Then you said you fail to see why I wear them at all as they are not needed for short rides like errands.
Then I said to keep the boys from getting bumped and they just have a chamois, no padding.
Then you said you wear athletic underwear under you regular clothes to prevent that problem.
Then I said what is the difference between wearing no-padded cycling shorts under regular clothes vs. athletic underwear.

To which you replied the above, which makes no sense in the context of our discussion.

Al

I suppose I could let you positon go without comment, but it was entirely too inflamatory. If you said that there are too many lycra clad cyclist abusing road position, I would agree with you. I have seen my share of them as well. Then again, in my neighborhood there are too many kids and adults on these small "jump bikes" zipping in and out all over the sidewalk and street. While I feel the behavior is irresponsible, I don't attack the whole group of people for it. However, you seem to take an extreme position.

1st paragraph:
It is wrong to assume that MOST cyclists wear lycra for reduced wind resistance/speed. We wear it because it is comfortable, breathable, and transports sweat away for our bodies, making for a more comfortable workout. If in doubt, try riding on a hot day in a t-shirt. Once in has become saturated with sweat, you will be dying to take it off

2nd paragraph:
Most serious road cyclists. Boy! This stinks of prejudice. I don't know where you live, drive and bike, but I find the opposite to be true. There are a few cyclists who take themselves, their bikes and bike gear way too seriously, but to say that most of these offenders are "serious cyclists" is a stretch. It is also a slap in the face. Sorry you feel that way, but I think you need some therapy.

3rd paragraph:
This is a strange reaction. You associate the garb with the behavior attributing it to a whole group. Boy is that wrong-headed. Please rethink your paradynes. Again, please seek professional help.

You say that you are "Not just a dumb old country boy", but if I were to take your strategy, that is exactly what I would deduce about you. You sound like someone right out of the old comedy show "Hee Haw". Yes, I am certain that is not really true of you, but that is exactly what you have done to a lot of cyclists. That's why you got so many "hits" for this topic.

"How you gon' win when you ain't right within?"
"Think again"
- EVE

I don't "just associate the garb with the group" the majority of the group do wear lycra and many are often rude and obstinate on the road. At least the incidents I've seen. Yes........its a generalization I'm making just to get the point across. I choose to visually appear different in the hope that I will look like a local person just out for a ride and I let my riding manners speak for themselves.
The comfort of "skin tight stretchy pants for fun" is debatable but if its all you have then, tis better to ride with them than suffer.
As to the country boy quote. I said I am just a dumb country boy referring to the unfashionable garb I ride in sometimes.
I'm just mainly reacting to what I've seen myself and have heard from local non-cyclists. Of course I am a cyclist but probably more of a touristy, commuter type than a racer boy type. I'll bet more people would cycle if they thought they could do so comfortably without click in shoes, spandex, gel food, hydration packs and a host of other "essential" gadgets. America would probably be more like some European countries then and cycling would be a whole lot safer and better for us, if there were more of us on the road.

Ive already entered into the realm of postage that I like to avoid, ie; unnecessary confrontationalism.
We have to agree to disagree. Richard MAsoner(above) gave me pause to think because when
I moved to Amish country I would regularly tell the new development yups at the Twp. meetings
to move back to philly if they dont like slowing for the buggies. Oh well......I guess I showed me :eek:
At my age and personality type I try to avoid confrontation of any type. I am happy to move over
and laff at angry old people and rednecks dragrace to the stoplite 500 yards up the road. This is what
works for me. Obviously, it doesnt for other people. I personally would love it if bike riders
were feared like Harley riders....poeple wold give us room because they would be terrified
that we might catch them at the next lite and eat their puppies. Until then, I think there is
room for both types of advocacy.....yours and mine.

be safe.....

Thats it, I'm buying a Harley the heck with bicycles and I'm riding it with lycra so I can go faster.

You've lost track of the conversation:

First I said I wear cycling shorts under regular shorts for errands where I spend considerable time off the bike.
Then you said you fail to see why I wear them at all as they are not needed for short rides like errands.
Then I said to keep the boys from getting bumped and they just have a chamois, no padding.
Then you said you wear athletic underwear under you regular clothes to prevent that problem.
Then I said what is the difference between wearing no-padded cycling shorts under regular clothes vs. athletic underwear.

To which you replied the above, which makes no sense in the context of our discussion.

Al

Sorry, I guess I'm not reading responses correctly and responding to the general theme and getting stuff jumbled up. (fighting typing on my daughters laptop, its slow and awkward) It doesn't make any difference on the shorts vs. athletic undies. I just don't like wearing skin tight outers with the pad. I have some bibs and shorts and they aren't that comfortable. I prefer cheap, wicking, plain, athletic shorts and regular baggies or sweat pants in the cold. I have an old pair of wool shorts with real leather chamois but they are moth eaten and thin. Now those were much better than the stuff today but I look less like a greek god now so I will spare the publics eyes. I'm liking the combination I use now after some lengthy experimentation and prefer the "less bulk in the crotch feel". No pad doesn't seem to cause any discomfort either in fact, the pad on my "real cycling shorts" did cause some. :o

How the heck does one or two or a dozen bicycle riders clogging up the road seem equivalent in your minds to endless lines of rush hour traffic? Those few bicycle riders CAN pull over to let others pass, but they often don't.

Diane, only one of my photos are from rush hour traffic. All of the others are for recreational activity which you claim is blocking traffic for "NO REASON" (emphasis yours). Those hundreds of motorists driving for NO REASON CAN pull over to let others pass, but they often don't. Please note, for example, the nice wide eight foot shoulder alongside US 66 in Colorado.

the more recreational in nature their riding is, the more they will block traffic for NO REASON.


The purpose of the trip has no bearing on the priority of the vehicle. RVs -- which arguably have NO REASON to travel to the beach or the mountains -- going slow over mountain passes are a fact of life for anybody traveling to Santa Cruz or Estes Park.

I ride to the side of the road "as far right as practicable" whether I'm wearing the spandex or not -- if there's a wide shoulder or bike lane, I use it. I don't scream obscenities at motorists who (correctly, BTW) merge right to turn right. But I'm not going to endanger myself just so Mr. Motorist in his car can shorten his trip a few seconds and I will take the lane where necessary. I have places to go also, just like anybody else.

I'm no more important than Joe Gas in his Toyota, but he's also no more important than me. Priority is determined by whoever is in front.

You've complained plenty, incidentally, that Forester represents pro-motorist interests. Telling cyclists that we're all second class road users who must pull over for motorists is about as pro-motorist as you can get.

Emphasis in the quote added by me -- I agree absolutely with Charle's sentiment.

I'll bet more people would cycle if they thought they could do so comfortably without click in shoes, spandex, gel food, hydration packs and a host of other "essential" gadgets. America would probably be more like some European countries then and cycling would be a whole lot safer and better for us, if there were more of us on the road.

For fast recreational riding I wear the kit, but I'm all about promoting cycling as a casual activity and transportation also. My commute to work and riding around town is almost always in normal clothing. I think promotional material on cycling would benefit, for example, if they showed normal people in normal clothing, instead of super fit supermen and wonder women wearing the superhero tights (to get back to the theme of the original post)....

For fast recreational riding I wear the kit, but I'm all about promoting cycling as a casual activity and transportation also. My commute to work and riding around town is almost always in normal clothing. I think promotional material on cycling would benefit, for example, if they showed normal people in normal clothing, instead of super fit supermen and wonder women wearing the superhero tights (to get back to the theme of the original post)....

This City of Tempe, AZ cycle commuting promotion video shows normal clothing being used (in last seconds of a 31sec video): http://media1.tempe.gov/transit/high/timtrafficcone.wmv

I commute 8.5mi each way in black cycling shorts, an ANSI lime alert T-shirt, sandals that clip into pedals with recessed cleats, a helmet, cycling gloves. I would never consider wearing 'normal' clothes as I always do work up a sweat, 8mo of the year is is over 80F in the morning, sometimes 98F in the morning. I shower and change at work.

But the majority of cyclists I see when I am out commuting are wearing 'normal' clothes. I really don't think there is any need to emphasize that one can cycle in normal clothes. Just about everyone has cycled in normal clothes at some point in their lives and knows it is possible.

Al

Of course part of the problem is that most bike shops are featuring only bent bar "racer bikes" in their inventory, vice comfort bikes that "normal" people might consider riding.

Walk into your LBS and see what they are featuring... plastic bikes, spandex and power gels... vice comfortable bikes and day to day biking in day to day clothing.

Of course part of the problem is that most bike shops are featuring only bent bar "racer bikes" in their inventory, vice comfort bikes that "normal" people might consider riding.

Walk into your LBS and see what they are featuring... plastic bikes, spandex and power gels... vice comfortable bikes and day to day biking in day to day clothing.

We just recently had this same discussion. Not at the bike shops I visit. Mostly hyrbids, cruisers, low end mtb (targeted as commuters) then come high end mtb, followed by racing oriented bikes. The racks of clothing feature just as much loose fitting clothing (mainly targeted at mtb and urban riding) as tight fitting.

Why do you go to racing oriented bike shops? That is like going to a Porsche dealer when you are looking for a family sedan (yeah, I know they sell an SUV) There are a few racing oriented shops where I live, but outnumbered 3:1 by the everyday cycling shops (and it is obvious from their advertising which is which)

Al

A lot depends on where you live. Around here everyone is in bibs and jersey unless you are a commuter. So no one gives anyone a second look in a kit. Most group rides are early Sat/Sun morning and while some will take the lane on 2 lane roads most go single file and only take a line on 4 lane roads. I ride for a workout so my daily 20mi ride is as hard as I can push it most times and I know I would not be comfortable if I was not in Bibs and had a good quality jersey on.

The bike shops are mixed they have high end racing bikes, mtb bikes, hybrids and beach cruisers. Most cyclists will give a nod or a wave as you pass and chats with people you don't know are pretty common on weekends. I would venture we have 100+ people on bikes riding in town on Sat and Sun.

We just recently had this same discussion. Not at the bike shops I visit. Mostly hyrbids, cruisers, low end mtb (targeted as commuters) then come high end mtb, followed by racing oriented bikes. The racks of clothing feature just as much loose fitting clothing (mainly targeted at mtb and urban riding) as tight fitting.

Why do you go to racing oriented bike shops? That is like going to a Porsche dealer when you are looking for a family sedan (yeah, I know they sell an SUV) There are a few racing oriented shops where I live, but outnumbered 3:1 by the everyday cycling shops (and it is obvious from their advertising which is which)

Al

Race oriented bike shops???

Not hardly. There are some 6-7 shops within about a 5 mile radius of my house... one of these is near the campus of UCSD. None of those shops features anything but "Porsches" as their main inventory. There is a Trek super store near me... Trek now has some comfort bikes, and one touring bike... but the overwhelming majority of their line is "racer bikes" as is the case for most of these other shops...

Schwinn used to feature more daily rider oriented comfort bikes, but I think there are only 5 Schwinn shops in the entire town... one within that 5 mile radius.

But the overwhelming majority of shops in town feature "racer bikes." Mountain bikes are at least seen as a comfortable alternative to drop bar bikes... which is why one often sees mountain bike like bikes (less the good shocks, etc) ridden as comfort bikes. It is not as if the consumer doesn't want an alternative... but the bike vendors/makers are somehow in the mindset that "racer bikes" rule.

BTW I have three different bikes... one a very low end Huffy fat tire cruiser, one a custom built fat tire commuter, and one a flashy "Italian" racer bike. I ride what feels right for the moment... spadex or cotton cargo shorts... whatever I need.

genec, this assertion is unsupported by actual sales data.

How exactly did you determine that bike vendors/manufacturers think that "racer bikes" rule?


Simple:
These are the predominate styles of bikes that fill the floors at the 6-7 local shops... There must be a reason they are there.

I have in the recent past gone in to each of these shops and asked for "something" other than a "racing bike."

OK there is a broad selection of MTB style bikes (trail or downhill)...

"OK, what else have you got."

Out comes the lonely campus bike...

"Uh, any other style/color... ?" "Nope."

There are shops down by the beach that carry nothing but beach cruisers... and I know of one shop near a canyon area that carries nothing but MTB.

But those shops are the exception.

The majority of local shops stock mostly "racer bikes." And really how much difference is there between one brand of high end grouppo (how many makers are there anyway) with carbon fiber bike and another brand of high end grouppo and CF bike?

I wonder why the difference in shops in San Diego vs. Tempe?
The shops with the greatest number of utility/casual bikes in Tempe are all within walking distance of campus. A recent stat. provided by the Tempe Police said that every day 10k cyclists travel to campus and every night 10k leave. (It was a stat in the context of why bike theft was so common.) Additionally 3.5% of non-students commute using a bicycle.
I wonder if in other more cycle commute areas (Portland?) if there is a even greater range of non-racing oriented bike shops. (A couple of the shops near campus also have a great cycle 'racing' depth both in selection as well as expertise, but that market appears secondary from the shop floor view.) I do find that the bike shops further from campus with the suburban 30+ recreational market cater more towards racing style bikes.

Al

Where I live we commonly have farm equipment on the roads that take up more than one lane. It can be hard to get past them. I've driven several miles before I could pass. We also have other types of contruction machinery, snowplows etc. that routinely go at half the speedlimit or less. What good is to go around in such a hurry all the time that anything that gets in the way incurs your wrath. How about leaving with time to spare and just showing the kind of decency to others that you want them to show to you? Stress must kill at least as many of us as inactivity does.

So, your perception that bike vendors/manufacturers think that "racer bikes" rule is based upon what you think you're observing at a few bike shops in your area? Got it.

Can you understand that your assumption (based solely upon what you have observed at a few bike shops and the conclusions that you have made based upon those observations) might not be representative of what bike vendors/manufacturers actually think?



Pete can you understand that if someone is just looking for a comfortable bike to use daily, this is exactly what they encounter, whether it is the whim of the vendors/manufacturers or not, this is what there is.

Now if the vendors/manufacturers are thinking up better ideas for new bikes... either they are keeping them secret, or they have not bothered to show their retailers what is available.

We can have a pissing contest and go off on a tangent and not come to any sort of conclusion. Or you can look at all the bikes available at say Performace and say Nashbar... and tell me what make up the largest selection of bikes available.

In fact Nashbar lists these three categories:

* Road Bikes
* Mountain Bikes
* BMX Bikes

Performace lists these:
» Beach Cruisers
» Road Bicycles
» Mountain Bicycles
» Cross/Comfort Bicycles

» Kids Bicycles
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28 bikes are shown in "Road bikes...," 48 are shown in "Mountain Bikes," by far the largest group. Of course I also mentioned that people are using "Mountain bikes" as comfort or daily bikes as those bikes represent the style of upright bike that is most similar to a comfort bike.





Hey, you're apparently an expert on the bike business, you really should be able to answer that question yourself.

No, I honestly cannot. I remember when Campy came in two styles and Shimano was perhaps two or three... now I have no idea how many different variations of grouppos exist or why. Shimano lists some 13 different grouppos under "Road bike." How different can these various grouppos be?

I wonder why the difference in shops in San Diego vs. Tempe?
The shops with the greatest number of utility/casual bikes in Tempe are all within walking distance of campus. A recent stat. provided by the Tempe Police said that every day 10k cyclists travel to campus and every night 10k leave. (It was a stat in the context of why bike theft was so common.) Additionally 3.5% of non-students commute using a bicycle.
I wonder if in other more cycle commute areas (Portland?) if there is a even greater range of non-racing oriented bike shops. (A couple of the shops near campus also have a great cycle 'racing' depth both in selection as well as expertise, but that market appears secondary from the shop floor view.) I do find that the bike shops further from campus with the suburban 30+ recreational market cater more towards racing style bikes.

Al


Right, exactly... and with the racing style comes the racing clothing and all the other "baggage..." Yet as ILTB likes to point out... the average person isn't even going to think "bike" if that is what comes to mind... tight clothing and an uncomfortable position... just to go to the local liqueur store.

Now can you imagine a NASCAR bike? :D Bright red of course... with an attached beer cooler. Big ole shift knob shifting gears. Stickers all over the thing... Big CONTINENTAL logo, maybe a SHIMANO and a TRIFLO. Fat tires, wide sprung comfortable seat... Loud horn. Built in radio. Flat leather covered bars, and a cup holder. Now that might just sell in mid America. ;)

A few images of other cyclists, some obviously commuting, while out on my commute:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=4312390#post4312390

Oh and one superhero (commuting):
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17503&d=1149867959

And a few others:
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17502&d=1149867930
http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=17504&d=1149868017

Al

Most of the bike shops I've been to in San Diego have a lot of comfort, commuter style bicycles for sale. Fenders, hub gears, etc... In fact, if the store is small, odds are they hardly have any CF bikes in stock, but mostly only have comfort, commuters, single speeds, maybe a couple fixies.

But that's central San Diego. I suppose there would be more road bicycles sold in shops in north county, as that's the area where most of the roadies I see like to live and ride.

Bike shops sell what sells. How can you fault them for trying to stay in business? Apparently in San Diego, what sells are high end road bikes. That is not true for all areas of the country.

You cannot go around expecting a business to participate in social experimentation; trying to get them to stock what you think people should ride, rather than stocking what people are actually asking for. A bike shop is a tough business to run in the first place. They pick the bikes that sell and lead to the highest margin to stock on their shop floor. If "casual bikes" don't sell, then they aren't stocked. Demand drives supply. Trying to go the other way around is like trying to push on a rope.

It's the same way for gruppo manufacturers. Campy and Shimano divide their groupos up by customer demand at various price points. It is no accident that their price point breakdowns and the number of groupo levels offered are similar between the two companies. Higher performing (easier and more reliable shifting, for instance, or lower weight) groupos cost more to manufacture and are sold at a higher price. That they are offered at all means that somebody's buying. The bike manufactures do a similar thing when developing their product offerings.

The low-end market for the "everyday-man rider" has been ceded to the department stores. These people only care about price, and $150 sure looks a lot better than even $500 if your only goal is simply to role around.

Whenever you start feeling the injustice of the world and try to direct it to the bike shops which have some sort of "social responsiblity" to offer everyday-man bikes, remember that this is not China. Demand drives supply in our capitalistic economy; so blame the lack of demand. Come on up to Portland sometime. You'll find that there is actually a market for the utility cruiser type bikes, and you'll find that, because there is a market, bike shops stock the stuff and in multiple makes, models, colors and sizes. But it wasn't always like that. Just like everywhere else, supply lagged behind the demand, and when the customers started demanding it, the supply showed up a couple years later.

I'd have to say, from what I see, the riders that are out when I am are split about even-- 1/3 or "road" bikes with drops or risers, 1/3 on mountain bikes, 1/3 on cruisers. most all have baskets of some kind. but I am assuming these are mostly students from ASU.

No, that is not "what there is." That is maybe "what there is" at a few shops that you visited. It's also not what noisebeam is encountering and it's not what I'm encountering and your claim is not supported by the information that is available about the bike industry.

You're claiming that the bike vendors/manufacturers think that "racer bikes" rule.



No, I think that you are assuming, based upon your limited experience, that "bike vendors/manufacturers think that "racer bikes" rule.




It's no contest at all genec and you've already headed off on this tangent.

I don't need to look at Performance or Nashbar catalogs(NEWSFLASH!!!!!!!!!!!!! They are the same company).

I think that you would find the following industry information helpful though:

http://nbda.com/page.cfm?PageID=34

"racer bikes" are 17% of unit sales
"comfort bikes" are 14% of unit sales
"hybrid bikes" are 15% of unit sales
"mountain bikes" are 28.5% of unit sales

How exactly does that information corroborate your contention that "bike vendors/manufacturers think that "racer bikes" rule?



You're an expert on the bike biz and you can't answer that? Hmm....

Uh first, I am not an expert on the bike biz... so lets kill that thought right now. I am just like anyone else... I walk into a bike shop and what I see is what they are trying to sell me.

I see mostly racer bikes.

I see that the people that are on the streets (sidewalks) riding tend to ride MTB type (meaning that they may not last 2 seconds in a real MTB ride). There is obviously a demand for other than racing bikes.

I do see a lot of MTB bikes in shops as well as the racer bikes... but clearly as Noisebeam (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5514111&postcount=134) also mentioned in his last line, racer bikes are largely represented. I certainly do not see 14 or 15% of the stock at local shops as either comfort or hybrid bikes.

Also from the web page you supplied are the following trends: reduction in the number of bike specialty shops, from 6,195 in 2000, to only 44,50 in 2007 While the number of physical stores has clearly declined, specialty bicycle retailers still sold approximately 3.1 million bicycles in 2006 -- a historically healthy number. This leads to the conclusion that the stores are becoming larger on average.

Or perhaps their are a few giant retailers trying to control the market... ???


************************************

Category........2004 Unit %....2005 Unit %......2006 Unit %
Mountain........32.9................28.8...............28.5
Comfort..........15.5................14.2..............14.0
Hybrid/Cross....12.5...............13.9...............15.0
Cruiser.............3.9.................5.5................6.0
Road/700C......10.8................16.4..............17.0
Youth.............24.0...............18.8..............16.5
Other.............. .2.................2.4................3.0

Now a couple of interesting trends might be read out of the numbers above... first, fewer youth bikes are being sold, that doesn't strike me as a good thing. Second, the number of mountain bikes sold is less, but comfort and hybrid bikes went up... perhaps the market buying what it wants... when it can find them... last, road bikes sales also went up... perhaps based on what was available at the bike store? Who knows. That's what I think... based on what I observe.

In fact Nashbar lists these three categories:

* Road Bikes
* Mountain Bikes
* BMX Bikes

Jenson USA lists six categories of mountain bikes, a combined "road/cyclocross" category, singlespeed, BMX and unicycle. They list unicycles(!), but no casual, city, townie or cruiser bikes.

Gene makes a good point in that bikes are still marketed as recreational toys by many shops and online retailers. The big thing at Interbike was "city bikes" (http://commutebybike.com/cats/interbike-2007/) as a category of its own. Every major vendor had at least a couple of offerings, some good, some indifferent. Here's a secret: the margin on moderately priced city bikes matches that for high priced road racers and mountain bikes. Sales volume in mountain bikes and road/race bikes has dropped significantly over the last year, but city bikes, townies and cruisers have picked up substantially.

Still, it's taking bike shops quite a while to pick up on this trend and the national marketing that entities such as Shimano (http://www.coasting.com/publish/content/coasting/sac/en/home.html) and Bikes Belong (http://www.bikesbelong.org/node/62449) are trying. As Pete and others note, many shops are picking up on this trend, but it's far from universal. I think it's because most of the people running the shops are into cycling as recreation -- that's the world they know about.

I love my 17 lb carbon fiber Wonder Bike, but you'll almost always see me riding a slightly creeky and heavy steel bike with fender and racks and lights.

Here's a typical scene from my bike commute, BTW. I see all kinds of people in all kinds of clothing on all kinds of bike. I hope Diane doesn't object that these people are so arrogantly taking the lane. The cyclists do outnumber the cars on this road, after all, and motorists are expected to pass by pulling into the other lane when it's safe. This is in Palo Alto, California.

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1235/878462891_f780ed352a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/878462891/)

but clearly as Noisebeam (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5514111&postcount=134) also mentioned in his last line, racer bikes are largely represented. .

I think you over read what I was saying. Round campus racer bikes are 10-20% of inventory, towards suburbs that goes up to 30%, with 30% mtb, 30% comfort and 10% other (bmx, etc.)

Al

Gene,

I don't know which shops you are frequenting, but my main LBS here in Los Angeles/West Hollywood has a range of road bikes from more expensive than my car Sevens to Pink Single speed cruisers with streamers on the handle. I would say the majority of the floor space at this store is devoted to hybrids, cruisers, MTBs, and mid range road bikes. Of course there is a lot of schwag for roadies, that's who buys that stuff. If you own a cruiser what do you need after you buy a helmet?

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Road/700C......10.8................16.4..............17.0

last, road bikes sales also went up... perhaps based on what was available at the bike store?

Road bikes sales shot through the roof in 05 and 06 because of the Lance effect and because it became a fad for wealthy individuals who don't like to golf. You might have seen the articles about cycling being the "new golf," including the group rides that the OP of this thread hate so much.

Road bike sales have dropped somewhat this year, probably because of the doping scandals that came to light over the last year.

Here's a typical scene from my bike commute, BTW. I see all kinds of people in all kinds of clothing on all kinds of bike. I hope Diane doesn't object that these people are so arrogantly taking the lane.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1235/878462891_f780ed352a.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/bike/878462891/)

The only thing typical is that the guy with the narrowest tires, the most hunched over position and wearing the superhero bumblebee outfit is arrogantly riding too far from the curb and creating the three abreast condition. ;)

Al

If you own a cruiser what do you need after you buy a helmet?

Oh c'mon, use some imagination! You need matching shoes and outfits, of course! Not to mention cute little dinosaur squeak horns and other accessories. If you doubt me, check the Velocouture group (http://www.flickr.com/groups/velocouture/pool/)!

Bike shops sell what sells. How can you fault them for trying to stay in business? Apparently in San Diego, what sells are high end road bikes. That is not true for all areas of the country.

You cannot go around expecting a business to participate in social experimentation; trying to get them to stock what you think people should ride, rather than stocking what people are actually asking for. A bike shop is a tough business to run in the first place. They pick the bikes that sell and lead to the highest margin to stock on their shop floor. If "casual bikes" don't sell, then they aren't stocked. Demand drives supply. Trying to go the other way around is like trying to push on a rope.

It's the same way for gruppo manufacturers. Campy and Shimano divide their groupos up by customer demand at various price points. It is no accident that their price point breakdowns and the number of groupo levels offered are similar between the two companies. Higher performing (easier and more reliable shifting, for instance, or lower weight) groupos cost more to manufacture and are sold at a higher price. That they are offered at all means that somebody's buying. The bike manufactures do a similar thing when developing their product offerings.

The low-end market for the "everyday-man rider" has been ceded to the department stores. These people only care about price, and $150 sure looks a lot better than even $500 if your only goal is simply to role around.

Whenever you start feeling the injustice of the world and try to direct it to the bike shops which have some sort of "social responsiblity" to offer everyday-man bikes, remember that this is not China. Demand drives supply in our capitalistic economy; so blame the lack of demand. Come on up to Portland sometime. You'll find that there is actually a market for the utility cruiser type bikes, and you'll find that, because there is a market, bike shops stock the stuff and in multiple makes, models, colors and sizes. But it wasn't always like that. Just like everywhere else, supply lagged behind the demand, and when the customers started demanding it, the supply showed up a couple years later.

OK I didn't mean to step on the bike shops per se... I was trying to aim this at the manufactures... as I felt that they were the ones that dictated what the shops carry. (see I am NOT an expert at this).

I was also equating road bikes to "superhero" clothing and going along with the OP regarding why people may not want to ride bikes... as folks equate the clothing with a style of bike and not wanting to look that way... not to mention that folks may not be comfortable on a "racer bike."

Now perhaps (as indicated by zeytoun) I am in an unusual market (of course that can't be true... as HH and Pete keep telling me there is nothing unusual about this area) and the north county area just happens to have a lot of racer inventory. Perhaps that is true. (the Schwinn shops tend to be south and east)

So one has to ask... why the proliferation of costume wearing racer types that the OP seems so upset about?

But as far as the "lack of demand." Is it possible that lack of demand is based on how "odd" we cyclists look to the rest of the country? Can that be one explanation for the roll off in NBDA stats that show a decline in youth bikes sold?

Oh and the grouppos... forget it... it's like Coke and Pepsi trying to capture that last 1% of the market share and going off with New Coke (which tasted more like Pepsi) and Pepsi Clear... sheesh.

I think (at least locally) that bike shops are actually too eager to push comfort/hybrid bikes on folks who may be better suited with a somewhat better performance bike.

When I was bike shopping explaining my function (commuting) I was always pushed away from my desire (a cyclocross or touring bike) toward klunky hybrids. My wife the same and she did buy a hybrid. She regrets it now and is now wanting a bike with drop handlebars* and narrow tires. She rides on the road and finds the hybrid to be too upright especially in the wind and the bike heavy and unresponsive. She is utility cyclist to the core and has zero interest in group recreational rides or any desire to dress in anything but normal clothes or look performance oriented. She just wants a bike that works best on flat smooth clean roads.

Many bike shop sales folks seem to have this vision that commuting means riding on the sidewalk slowly and jumping curbs and anyone that walks in the shop saying they want to commute gets steered to the glut of cruisers, hybrids, cheap mtbs. When hanging out in the shops I hear/see this happening all the time.

*(flat bar would probably be OK too, but she does not like the way the shifters are integrated into the flat bars grips on her hybrid, so when she grabs and stands up it sometimes twists the shifter, of course not all flat bar are like this)

Al

I can't believe this thread is still going.

Well I think that this thread, or at least the OP's opinion, may be one of the reasons why you don't see average joes out on bikes...

Heck, even my wife refuses to buy just a helmet....

The perception of cycling is based on the perception that A) it is dangerous (hence the need for a helmet) and B) you have to wear funny clothing (expressed by the OP and some talk radio hosts).

I think (at least locally) that bike shops are actually too eager to push comfort/hybrid bikes on folks who may be better suited with a somewhat better performance bike. I agree. People tried to do this with me last time I tried to buy a tourer/commuter. I didn't let them, but only because I knew quite well what kind of bike I wanted and made the beeline for the tourers/cyclocross bikes as soon as I entered the store. :D

Comfort bikes are a big thing nowadays, and is growing. In many cases such a bike is an appropriate bike, but lots of time newbies who would really benefit for a more performance-geared bike get convinced that they want a comfort clunker because it doesn't look intimidating and the salesperson is pushing it.

I think (at least locally) that bike shops are actually too eager to push comfort/hybrid bikes on folks who may be better suited with a somewhat better performance bike.

When I was bike shopping explaining my function (commuting) I was always pushed away from my desire (a cyclocross or touring bike) toward klunky hybrids. My wife the same and she did buy a hybrid. She regrets it now and is now wanting a bike with drop handlebars* and narrow tires. She rides on the road and finds the hybrid to be too upright especially in the wind and the bike heavy and unresponsive. She is utility cyclist to the core and has zero interest in group recreational rides or any desire to dress in anything but normal clothes or look performance oriented. She just wants a bike that works best on flat smooth clean roads.

Many bike shop sales folks seem to have this vision that commuting means riding on the sidewalk slowly and jumping curbs and anyone that walks in the shop saying they want to commute gets steered to the glut of cruisers, hybrids, cheap mtbs. When hanging out in the shops I hear/see this happening all the time.

*(flat bar would probably be OK too, but she does not like the way the shifters are integrated into the flat bars grips on her hybrid, so when she grabs and stands up it sometimes twists the shifter, of course not all flat bar are like this)

Al

This is exactly what I ran into... So again are the manufactures missing something? Especially that push toward "cruisers, hybrids, cheap mtbs."

What I have on my commuter is high quality components (for the time) and flat bars and a level top tube. built on a custom cromoly frame. It is terribly outdated today... but darn comfortable and has been ridden thousands and thousands of miles. But nothing was like it in the bike shops at the time... nor today.

Comfort bikes tend to be somewhat comfortable if you are only going two miles (or so) and tend to be heavy... why not design bikes that are comfortable, light, use good components and offer some upright arrangement for biking in traffic... A good MTB almost does this, (and why I think they have a large following) but a good MTB may come with other specifics that make it an MTB... shocks for instance.

Why not a light rigid frame, with good thumb shifters, a chain guard, good grouppo (minimal hassle) and built in racks or basket, and basic quality lighting, and fenders... Something between a cross and a comfort bike... or very similar to what cyclists put together for their commuters. (understanding that some commuters may even use CF).

Put all this together with riders in regular clothes.