Well I think that this thread, or at least the OP's opinion, may be one of the reasons why you don't see average joes out on bikes...

Heck, even my wife refuses to buy just a helmet....

The perception of cycling is based on the perception that A) it is dangerous (hence the need for a helmet) and B) you have to wear funny clothing (expressed by the OP and some talk radio hosts).

I actually think the perception is not caused by the cycle specific clothes & helmet to an unbiased person, but instead the perception has been created by anti-cyclists who don't want cyclists on the roads and in ranting about them have adopted making fun of the clothing and helmets as part of the rant as a way to demean and belittle.

One can either continue wearing practical cycling clothing and using bicycles meet ones needs - and be a normal person, demonstrating normal people can wear cycle specific clothing, or one can succumb to the anti-cyclists and in a losing 'battle' try to instead dress 'cool' or 'normal' when on a bike in an effort to distance oneself from the anti-cyclist image of a cyclist. But because you are riding on their roads, your still gonna be a 'gay' or 'hippy' or whatever is the-latest-insult cyclist, but dressed in black with shants, tight jeans or slacks with a band around leg and no helmet.

Al

Never let the facts get in the way of your observations!



Comfort bikes declined genec...

Comfort..........15.5................14.2..............14.0

More info:

"The success story of the mountain bike has been the focus of much of the specialty industry in recent years. The category has apparently matured, however, and it represented 28.5% of all bicycles sold in the year 2006 by specialty bicycle stores, according to estimates from the NBDA (representing bicycle stores, not mass merchants). This figure was down from the years 2004 and 2005, and from the high point of approximately 60% several years before. However, mountain bikes continue to be the largest single bicycle category for specialty bicycle stores. The decline may also be somewhat misleading, because the "comfort bike" category could actually be considered a modification of the mountain bike, and are comparable in many ways to low-end mountain bikes. "Comfort" bicycles look a lot like mountain bikes, but feature soft saddles, more upright seating position and easier gearing than the traditional mountain bike. The unit sales trends by category are below."

Hmmm the NBDA is saying exactly what I am saying...

Folks are looking for something other than racer bikes. MTBs are as close as the manufactures seem to want to get... and they are just missing the mark.

Why not a light rigid frame, with good thumb shifters, a chain guard, good grouppo (minimal hassle) and built in racks or basket, and basic quality lighting, and fenders... Something between a cross and a comfort bike... or very similar to what cyclists put together for their commuters. (understanding that some commuters may even use CF).


Sort of like these? Which are on the floors in multiples of most shops:
http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=159&startRow=1

Al

I actually think the perception is not caused by the cycle specific clothes & helmet to an unbiased person, but instead the perception has been created by anti-cyclists who don't want cyclists on the roads and in ranting about them have adopted making fun of the clothing and helmets as part of the rant as a way to demean and belittle.

One can either continue wearing practical cycling clothing and using bicycles meet ones needs - and be a normal person, demonstrating normal people can wear cycle specific clothing, or one can succumb to the anti-cyclists and in a losing 'battle' try to instead dress 'cool' or 'normal' when on a bike in an effort to distance oneself from the anti-cyclist image of a cyclist. But because you are riding on their roads, your still gonna be a 'gay' or 'hippy' or whatever is the-latest-insult cyclist, but dressed in black with shants, tight jeans or slacks with a band around leg and no helmet.

Al

There may be a lot of the anti-cyclist thing... but how well could that carry if people were wearing every day clothes?

mountain bikes are friendlier-looking with more upright position and maybe less intimidating than your typical road bike. I started with one, then put slicks on it, then found out I needed a road bike... then switched out the drops for risers... front and rear rack/baskets...I think I may almost have the bike I want! I never did and still don't have the cash to sink into a new bike, so I have to kind of put together the one I want. been fun, though.

Your ability to misunderstand the written word is truly stupendous. Wow.

Pete compare the words I wrote in http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5513721&postcount=130

But the overwhelming majority of shops in town feature "racer bikes." Mountain bikes are at least seen as a comfortable alternative to drop bar bikes... which is why one often sees mountain bike like bikes (less the good shocks, etc) ridden as comfort bikes. It is not as if the consumer doesn't want an alternative... but the bike vendors/makers are somehow in the mindset that "racer bikes" rule.

With these words:

However, mountain bikes continue to be the largest single bicycle category for specialty bicycle stores. The decline may also be somewhat misleading, because the "comfort bike" category could actually be considered a modification of the mountain bike, and are comparable in many ways to low-end mountain bikes. "Comfort" bicycles look a lot like mountain bikes, but feature soft saddles, more upright seating position and easier gearing than the traditional mountain bike.

Now tell me again what I don't seem to understand... and remember I must have some sort of problem, so you had better go into specifics and spell it out... don't assume anything.

Going back to my post of pictures:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=5514575&postcount=139

With one exception (http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=43057&d=1177535661)every cyclist wearing 'normal' clothes is riding on the sidewalk (or in one case wrong way on road) and everyone with at least bike shorts is riding on the road in the correct direction. I just noticed this and am not pointing this out for any reason, just noted.

Al

Sort of like these? Which are on the floors in multiples of most shops:
http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=159&startRow=1

Al

Don't see many like that in the 6-7 local shops I have checked... and actually this one is closest to what I am speaking of:

http://landiscyclery.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4696

http://landiscyclery.com/images/library/large/spec_glb_c7.1_navy_gl_07_m.jpg

The real question is how long has Specialized been making such a bike? And how many variants are there... compared to say a Trek Madone which comes in what, 10 different subtle "flavors."

Don't see many like that in the 6-7 local shops I have checked... and actually this one is closest to what I am speaking of:

http://landiscyclery.com/itemdetails.cfm?catalogId=39&id=4696

http://landiscyclery.com/images/library/large/spec_glb_c7.1_navy_gl_07_m.jpg

The real question is how long has Specialized been making such a bike? And how many variants are there... compared to say a Trek Madone which comes in what, 10 different subtle "flavors."

I've seen a couple of these at work cycle parking for at least the last year or two.

Look at all the other varieties of non-roadie bikes - all types, but of course only some models, represented to a decent (sometimes great) degree on the shop floor:
Comfort: http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=64
Hybrid: http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=65
Cruiser: http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=145

Al

The perception of cycling is based on the perception that ... B) you have to wear funny clothing

Heh. That's the exact reason I don't play golf. Cycling clothing is much less funny looking.

genec, I don't need to compare those texts.

All you should need to do is compare this first part, quoting you:

"Folks are looking for something other than racer bikes. MTBs are as close as the manufactures seem to want to get... and they are just missing the mark".....with the simple fact that almost the same amount MTBs are sold as Comfort/Hybrid/Cross bikes.

If folks are looking for something other than racer bikes and MTBs are as close as the manufactures seem to want to get... then explain all of those non-racer bikes that are being sold in such great numbers.

Almost 1/3 of the bicycle market are non-"racer bikes" that aren't MTBs genec!




_______________________________________

edit: Ok, my bad. I missed this part. You hit the nail on the head. You are just really confused about how the bike biz works. What's amazing to me is that you prattle on, despite admitting that you don't understand the subject being discussed.

"OK I didn't mean to step on the bike shops per se... I was trying to aim this at the manufactures... as I felt that they were the ones that dictated what the shops carry. (see I am NOT an expert at this)."

Pete, that "prattle" is otherwise known as conversation... that's all this is. I never have expressed that I am an expert here on cycling.

As far as that 1/3 issue... yeah as MTBs went down, other bikes that seemed nearly suitable, went up in sales over time... as the NBDA said: "However, mountain bikes continue to be the largest single bicycle category for specialty bicycle stores. The decline may also be somewhat misleading, because the "comfort bike" category could actually be considered a modification of the mountain bike, and are comparable in many ways to low-end mountain bikes. "Comfort" bicycles look a lot like mountain bikes, but feature soft saddles, more upright seating position and easier gearing than the traditional mountain bike.


My contention remains the same... people are looking for something not quite a mountain bike, and the current offerings of "comfort bike" just don't quite meet the requirements... and the offerings of road bikes or racer bikes is just too over the top and at least around here, represents too much of the inventory.

Comfort bikes are a big thing nowadays, and is growing. In many cases such a bike is an appropriate bike, but lots of time newbies who would really benefit for a more performance-geared bike get convinced that they want a comfort clunker because it doesn't look intimidating and the salesperson is pushing it.

I see a lot of flat bar road bikes in the shops around here these days. Although it's debatable that flat bars are more comfy than drop bars, they are at least less intimidating to a novice cyclist, but the bikes still give good performance.

Which cyclist will get more people interested in cycle commuting:
http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/070921-AM.73730000.jpg
http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/070419-PM.13477cyclist000.jpg
http://www.optionnz.com/users/afs/070530-AM.24566blrtolcycle000.jpg

Al

I've seen a couple of these at work cycle parking for at least the last year or two.

Look at all the other varieties of non-roadie bikes - all types, but of course only some models, represented to a decent (sometimes great) degree on the shop floor:
Comfort: http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=64
Hybrid: http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=65
Cruiser: http://landiscyclery.com/itemlist.cfm?category=145

Al

Looks like things are changing at the LBS. I'll go shopping again... and then probably repaint my commuter... as it's "just right." (but built more than 20 years ago) :D

Which will get more people interested in cycle commuting:

Al

Judging from the blurry pics... I'd guess picture three with the bike lane and little traffic.

genec, you really, really, really should pay more attention/work on your memory/read that thread again. That discussion was about your erroneous claim that the traffic conditions in your area where somehow unique.

Conflating that to the bicycle retail market is silly, even for you.

I know... I was just having a good time with it. ;) Lighten up.

Heck, it is quite unique right now... We are in a disaster zone. Don't breath the air.

Perhaps you've heard about our little fire problem (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&ie=UTF8&om=1&msa=0&msid=114250687465160386813.00043d08ac31fe3357571&ll=33.134101,-116.898651&spn=0.801531,1.454315&z=10)?

Judging from the blurry pics... I'd guess picture three with the bike lane and little traffic.

I did edit my post to say which cyclist But you point is a good one - the perception of the individuals commute route is likely more important than what other commuters look like.

My answer to my edited question would be that a range of cyclist looks will attract a range of potential commuters. Everyone will identify with a different look/bike, just as different car types appeal to different people.

Al

The decline in the MTB market was only a few percentage points genec.

The fact is that there are all of these other bikes being offered by the manufacturers, that aren't MTBs and aren't "racer bikes."

Comfort..........15.5................14.2..............14.0
Hybrid/Cross....12.5...............13.9...............15.0
Cruiser.............3.9.................5.5................6.0

Your "MTBs are as close as the manufactures seem to want to get.." claim is completely disproved by the fact that those mean manufacturers are actually offering bikes that aren't MTBs and that aren't "racer bikes."

I'm having trouble understanding how this simple fact is so difficult for you to understand.




pssst...hybrid/cross/cruiser bikes are out there also genec.

And guess what!? People who don't want a "racer bike" or MTB are buying them, along with comfort bikes.

Amazing!

Go back and read what Noisebeam wrote (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5514932#post5514932) about his wife's attempt to find the just right bike.

This is exactly what I have seen... only the offerings were primarily "racer bikes."

BTW let's keep in mind that this thread is about clothing...

BTW let's keep in mind that this thread is about clothing...
It is about clothing, but more so about appearance and what type of bike one rides affects appearance.

Al

Go back and read what Noisebeam wrote (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?p=5514932#post5514932) about his wife's attempt to find the just right bike.

This is exactly what I have seen... only the offerings were primarily "racer bikes."

But the 'right type' of bike was there on the shop floor, lightweight, narrow tire, flat handlebar, attachment points for fender/baskets - essentially a flat barred touring bike. Its just that the salespeople guided her away from (or never guided her to) those.

Al

That contradicts your "MTBs are as close as the manufactures seem to want to get.." claim genec.

She apparently wanted a touring/cyclocross bike and was steered into a hybrid. The point that you're missing is that she had a selection of bikes to choose from that weren't "racer bikes" or MTBs. That selection is contrary to your claim about those mean manufacturers, just as the sales figures contradict the same claim of yours.

Come on down Pete... lets go tour the bike shops in northern San Diego and see what they have on the floor.

The point you're missing is that the demand may have been there all along... but the supply is not, as sales guys are leading the customer to what they have on hand.

How long has Trek had the same 520 as a touring bike?

How old are the new offerings such as the Specialized Globe for the US market?

When I was bike shopping explaining my function (commuting) I was always pushed away from my desire (a cyclocross or touring bike) toward klunky hybrids.

You might like Breezer's new "Finesse" -- it's a performance commuter bike with all of the right stuff for a fast commuter. QBP also created the "Civia" brand for that market.

Sorry genec. I'm done trying to spoon feed you in this thread.

You're a hopeless case, in many ways.

Right Pete. So your point is that MTBs sell more? OK, got it.

You might like Breezer's new "Finesse" -- it's a performance commuter bike with all of the right stuff for a fast commuter. QBP also created the "Civia" brand for that market.

Yet another "new" design... Which says that the industry is finally noticing that something other than racer bikes are being asked for.

And MTBs are close, but not quite it.

Performance commuter... Honestly, I think that is the first time I have heard that combination of words.

Here's the thing about the clothes: If it really was just about comfort and performance would it have all the ads and logos all over it? Of course it wouldn't.

And about all that motor traffic. It can't pull over. There's no advantage. It's not the same thing. When I'm riding my bike there's nobody in front of me. Nobody is delaying me. I can go as fast as I want, or as fast as I can all the time. If somebody comes up behind me who is faster, I can easily pull over a little bit and let them pass by. It takes nothing out of my time. I do this for motorists and for other cyclists. Heck, I did it for a mobility scooter once that was overtaking me on a hill!

What can a motorist do in congested traffic? Nothing. That's why cycling is so much less frustrating.

So why they heck add to the motorists' frustration unless you have some kind of need to be a prick. Lots of people have that need, and many of them seem to be drawn to clothing with a lot of logos and ride in big packs of other cyclists. I see these people all the time.

A correlation is drawn between the characteristic logo-wear and the characteristic prick-ish behavior so that all you have to do, no matter how polite you personally may be, is put on some logo-wear and everybody is going to expect you to act like the prototype.

It's not that hard to understand. Nobody is saying that the clothing is bad. Nobody is saying all people who do xyz or wear abc are this way or that way. There's simply a correlation out there and decisions about you get based upon it whether you agree or not.

How old are the new offerings such as the Specialized Globe for the US market?

The Globe model was added in 2004. Prior to that and still to this day, Specialized has offered the Sirrus model which is basically a touring frame (complete with cantis, front and rear rack mounts, and fender mounts) with a flat bar and hybrid (48/38/28) gearing, perfect for the non-road racer wannabe.

And about all that motor traffic. It can't pull over. There's no advantage. It's not the same thing. When I'm riding my bike there's nobody in front of me. Nobody is delaying me.

You never have to a stop at a red light or stop sign? I'm constantly being "delayed" by motorized traffic. I'd be just as delayed if I was driving (save for those times when I can lane split on my bike) and they'd be just as delayed by my presence if I was one more car on the road (save for those times when I can use my bike's narrowness to their advantage and let them get around without ever slowing).

I admit it. Part of me is impatient and intolerant. I really didn't intend to offend any respectful riders. But:
1) It's possible to ride without hogging the road.
2) Everyone has the right to dress as they want.
3) The road hogs do turn people against bicycle riders, and I don't care to have drivers pissed at me for something that other people did/do.
There's a little bit of moron in all of us.

Here you go buddy; Open your arms and receive this warm teddy bear hug... Ahhhh, you see? Now you feel much better.

:love:

Here's the thing about the clothes: If it really was just about comfort and performance would it have all the ads and logos all over it? Of course it wouldn't.

Who here is talking about logos? Do superhero's have ads plastered all over them? Logos? Some a letter or two, but that's who they are! Seems the discussion or 'concerning attire' is far more about tight fitting lycra shorts and jerseys that fit the contour of ones torso. Plus a bit of concern over bright colors, especially the ever popular yellow/lime creating a 'bumblebee' effect.


And about all that motor traffic. It can't pull over. There's no advantage. It's not the same thing. When I'm riding my bike there's nobody in front of me. Nobody is delaying me. I can go as fast as I want, or as fast as I can all the time. If somebody comes up behind me who is faster, I can easily pull over a little bit and let them pass by. It takes nothing out of my time. I do this for motorists and for other cyclists. Heck, I did it for a mobility scooter once that was overtaking me on a hill!
I guess you don't wait a couple of light cycles behind the other wide vehicles on your commute home which uses a road with a narrow outside lane. I sure can't go as fast as I could. When there is no other traffic (my weekend test ride of commute) I can cover the 8.5mi 2-3min faster!

Here's the main point - if the road/lane is wide enough to share side by side, then it is wide enough so faster vehicles can pass slower ones - sometimes the faster vehicle is the motor powered one, sometimes it is the narrow human powered one. If the road is too narrow to safely share side by side than both types of power/width are delayed/slowed by the other.


What can a motorist do in congested traffic? Nothing. That's why cycling is so much less frustrating.
I didn't realize either was frustrating. I find driving a motor vehicle relaxing, but then again I'm not a stress case who feels I need to be somewhere ever sooner. Try not being in a hurry next time you motor and you will find yourself far more relaxed when you arrive and will likely also find you arrive just as on time as with the stressed out mindset that you appear to approach motoring with.


So why they heck add to the motorists' frustration unless you have some kind of need to be a prick. Lots of people have that need, and many of them seem to be drawn to clothing with a lot of logos and ride in big packs of other cyclists. I see these people all the time.
Who is trying to add to motorist frustration again? Do you see these packs out riding in rush hour traffic? Or only on weekends along with all the other recreational drivers? In my observation if a road is narrow and winding it is dangerous to pass even a single cyclist or a pack, so wait (refer to previous response above) and soon there will be a time to safely pass, when the road straightens out and levels, the pack will straighten out too, it's part of the dynamic of groups of cyclists.


A correlation is drawn between the characteristic logo-wear and the characteristic prick-ish behavior so that all you have to do, no matter how polite you personally may be, is put on some logo-wear and everybody is going to expect you to act like the prototype.
Funny how when I am wearing my one and only one jersey with words on it (the name of a country I visited) I am usually riding in a group socializing and having a grand time along with other superheroes the most common thing to hear from the group after 'hole' or 'glass' is 'car back, move right' Solo for my commute I wear a plain ANSI T-shirt and ride assertively due to rush hour traffic and some narrow lanes.


It's not that hard to understand. Nobody is saying that the clothing is bad. Nobody is saying all people who do xyz or wear abc are this way or that way. There's simply a correlation out there and decisions about you get based upon it whether you agree or not.
Maybe the correlation is cyclists who ride on narrow twisty roads on weekends for longer rides tend to wear more athletic cycling attire and cyclists who commute shorter distances tend to stay on the sidewalk in street clothes.

Why do you feel the need to perpetuate the idea that it's acceptable to judge cyclist by their appearance?

Al

Here's the thing about the clothes: If it really was just about comfort and performance would it have all the ads and logos all over it? Of course it wouldn't.


Most of my "superhero" clothes don't have any ads and logos plastered all over it. So what's your point?

It is about comfort and performance. I certainly don't wear it to look cool (I am nowhere near thin enough to pull that off)

-D

By the way Diane, that ANSI yellow jacket you are wearing in your avatar fits right in with the superhero look. And if you don't like brand name promotion, why have them in your signature? Oh, I know, it's not about an image, it's so you can 'connect' with other Trek mtb riders.

Al

Of course part of the problem is that most bike shops are featuring only bent bar "racer bikes" in their inventory, vice comfort bikes that "normal" people might consider riding.

Walk into your LBS and see what they are featuring... plastic bikes, spandex and power gels... vice comfortable bikes and day to day biking in day to day clothing.

You must not frequent the bike shops I visit. In most of the shops I Visit, you can find a large assortment of bikes for "regular folks" (for lack of a better term). In a separate room you will find premier bikes, but the bulk of inventory is for the average joe. Yes there are quite a few shops that overwelm you with top-of-the line stuff, but if you think about it, how often is the best stuff sold. From a business perspective, the big money is in the lower priced repeat sales. I think your premise is flawed in that it is exaggerated.

By the way Diane, that ANSI yellow jacket you are wearing in your avatar fits right in with the superhero look. And if you don't like brand name promotion, why have them in your signature? Oh, I know, it's not about an image, it's so you can 'connect' with other Trek mtb riders.

Al

It sounds like someone did a "real number" on you to make you so bitter about a matter of personal choice. Tell us about it. Maybe we can help you get past it. You seem stuck at this point.

Gene,


I can't believe this thread is still going.

That's becuse it is largely a rant that prompts the rest of us to rant. At some point we have to decide to let it go.

I'll have to read this thread at home. With popcorn.

At some point we have to decide to let it go.+1

I've often thought that the development of our online "personality" mirrors the development of our real-world personality, in that it goes through several phases in order.

1 Real children begin as observers, just taking everything in.
-When people first go online, they don't usually have a "concept of self" (avatar, profile) but rather begin just by browsing (looking, and reading, and listening, and watching)

2 Then children develop an ego identity, then continue to learn and develop, and explore socialization. Kids fight unless they are progressively trained at an early age about conflict resolution, and life skills like sharing.
-Then people develop an online identity (avatar, profile, personas, etc), then begin interacting with others. They start expressing their opinion online as a way of establishing "self", and go to far, arguing with others about opinions endlessly.

3 At some point children (hopefully) grow up, learn how to resolve conflict amicably, and start working as a member of society
-People online learn how to "let go", and start producing content online instead of arguing with strangers.

Even if we are "mature" in real life, I think we go through these stages (for example, in real life, I'm rather polite, and as many have told me, "easy going, friendly". Online however, I've engaged in stupid pissing contests within the last year). At some point, we get over it, and learn to let go.

First off let me say I have a passion for bike riding. I ride every day.
But I do not want to be associated with the kind of riders that come through my neck of the woods on weekends, dressed in superhero costumes while rudely blocking up traffic.

I live in Illinois, close to St. Louis. People come here on weekend rides, acting like they own the place, and all they do is make folks mad by riding 2-3 abreast down the narrow roads. Just this morning I came upon a small pack of riders who were climbing and decending a rather large hill. Its the only road around for several miles and everyone has to use it. The bikers were riding in groups, clogging up the road, and refusing to pull over and let cars and trucks pass. I ride the very same roads and I don't have a problem getting out of the way for vehicles.

I don't dress like you all because I don't want to be associated with the likes of riders like you.

Illinois law says that you shall ride single file, and that vehicles shall provide a 3 foot clearance. Common courtesy says that you keep out of folks' way when they are trying to go about their business.

People around here have a very low opinion of bicycle riders and after the not-so-uncommon experience like I had today, I can see why.

"you all".....+1 for not wearing a tie because Bush wears one

I wear all sorts of clothes while riding. Whatever I have on to go to a friends place, a store, etc etc around the neighbourhood & dowtown. If I'm required to wear a suit or nice trousers I'll put a clip on the leg of my pant to keep it out of the chain.

If I'm riding all day I wear cycling shorts and jerseys etc as performance wear provides superior comfort and wicking when it's warm & when it's cold it does the same when layered.

There is no question in a sound mind of whether or not technology can improve clothing comfort & performance in activity specific clothing/gear. Well, there is a question...but it's phrased better this way; "Tell me dip****, did your grandfather storm a beach in loafers and an oxford with casual blue denim trousers? Mine didn't." Of course these clothes work better than others for their specific purpose. Only an idiot would try and tell a gravedigger that a gardening spade is good enough for a 6-foot hole.

As far as logos go, I've seen our own "logo" on jersey's etc, it gets there because we occasionally donate $$ or goods to local riding clubs and teams that encourage young people to exercise by providing a structured activity. Who am I to say that the other brands aren't there for the same reason? In fact, on at least 2 mountain bike team jerseys our company brand appears on I know they supported the team financially/materially without any expectations. You think they shouldn't? The team members thought they should, and put them on the jersey unless specifically asked not to, as a way of showing appreciation.

I'm a-okay with our logo on team jerseys, it's a sign that we contributed, gave back, and if you're stupid enough to be swayed towards buying our products simply because you saw the logo on a shirt...for god's sake please choose the other guy!

The Globe model was added in 2004. Prior to that and still to this day, Specialized has offered the Sirrus model which is basically a touring frame (complete with cantis, front and rear rack mounts, and fender mounts) with a flat bar and hybrid (48/38/28) gearing, perfect for the non-road racer wannabe.

So a touring frame with flat bars, and essentially previously only one offering... compared to how many road offerings... which is my point. Road bikes have dominated bike shops and manufactures' creative lines for quite some time. Folks venturing into cycling for the first time or returning as they are older, may not be looking for a drop bar bike with skinny tires. AND they are turned off by the clown clothing of that what appears to be that whole group. (imagine walking into some bike shops and seeing a small contingent of "superhero" clad cyclists).

Those folks then turn to what appears to be a comfort bike... mountain bikes... with wider seats and flat bars... but some MTBs can be intimidating too... Looking at some of the really "strange" high end frame arrangements... so they turn (and are price driven) to the lower end MTB group... why not comfort bikes... shops have so few in inventory... they may not be offered, or in my case and the case of the wife of Noisebeam, the offerings are really poor campus bikes... and the sales staff is not all that familiar with them.

So what happened way back when... when the Schwinn like "normal" bikes were displaced by racer bikes... why were "normal" bikes displaced? (I know, "gears")

Now it appears that some "performance commuters" are arriving on the scene... I've got to try to ask for one of those when I go to the LBS next time. But the bottom line is a more practical bike, not racing, not mtb, and not "comfort" is slowly arriving on the scene... is it possible that more "unsuperhero-clad" like folks may be taking to cycling?

Nonsense.

I spend a bit of time in about 6-8 bike stores in this area. While the performance bikes may get people through the door, all of the shops that stock full lines/major brands report that the hottest sellers are hybrids, comfort and commuter bicycles. The specialized "racer" stores are outnumbered by those that are for commuters

It's been this way for a while. Check with the NBDA. Practically every major bicycle manufacturer has increased it's offerings in hybrid/comfort every year for the past decade, to match increased sales in this area. The trend will continue too as the boomers lose the ability to bend over into the drops, and as the bicycle becomes a more significant alternative in inner-city transportation.

The class you're complaining isn't well represented outsells the one you believe intimidates people. It isn't so, this intimidation factor. I think it's only felt by persons who are already cycling and have developed a grudge based on a few bad interactions, while ignoring the positive. I personally feel that people who are not "into" cycling are not likely intimidated by sleek road bikes or their riders. The sleek gadgets actually get them through the door. The lycra clad riders are no more intimidating than a jockey after the race, a baseball practice or a swim meet.

Nonsense.

I spend a bit of time in about 6-8 bike stores in this area. While the performance bikes may get people through the door, all of the shops that stock full lines/major brands report that the hottest sellers are hybrids, comfort and commuter bicycles. The specialized "racer" stores are outnumbered by those that are for commuters

It's been this way for a while. Check with the NBDA. Practically every major bicycle manufacturer has increased it's offerings in hybrid/comfort every year for the past decade, to match increased sales in this area. The trend will continue too as the boomers lose the ability to bend over into the drops, and as the bicycle becomes a more significant alternative in inner-city transportation.

The class you're complaining isn't well represented outsells the one you believe intimidates people. It isn't so, this intimidation factor. I think it's only felt by persons who are already cycling and have developed a grudge based on a few bad interactions, while ignoring the positive. I personally feel that people who are not "into" cycling are not likely intimidated by sleek road bikes or their riders. The sleek gadgets actually get them through the door. The lycra clad riders are no more intimidating than a jockey after the race, a baseball practice or a swim meet.

I think your key words there are "every major bicycle manufacturer has increased it's offerings in hybrid/comfort every year for the past decade."

Joejack pointed out that "performace commuters" have been on offering since 2004. And others have mentioned that at least one comfort style has been available... meanwhile the MTB bikes came onto the scene... what, back in the mid 80's?

And while I agree with your last statement: "The lycra clad riders are no more intimidating than a jockey after the race, a baseball practice or a swim meet." Obviously the OP doesn't. Nor does one meet swimmers at the local supermarket, or on the local street. So it is easy to see how "other folks" might find say a Speedo clad swimmer a bit odd... as odd say as a spandex clad cyclist or a silk wearing jockey, out on the street.

It sounds like someone did a "real number" on you to make you so bitter about a matter of personal choice. Tell us about it. Maybe we can help you get past it. You seem stuck at this point.
I could care less what others think of what I wear or what Diane wears. I was just pointing out to Diane to look in the mirror before she starts to comment on what others wear and about how what many cyclists commonly wear reflects poorly on what others think of them.

I personally have seen no correlation between poor cyclist behavior that affects motorists to what they wear.

If there is any bitterness on my part it is only that cyclists, those who claim to be advocates for cyclists, are perpetuating the stereotype that cyclists wearing athletic clothing, sometimes with logos, are more often than not arrogant or rude.

Al

I agree, there do seem to be advocates who have a problem with recreational & competitive cycling apparel & the people who wear it. It'd suit their ends better to ditch those means IMO, recreational cycling is a tool that propagates cycling in general.

& I'm not arrogant or rude in person, even if I'm in technical cycling clothes, which is very often. That's not to say I won't tell a stranger to go **** themselves if they need to walk up to me and criticize my attire. I can at least guarantee I'll be smiling when I say it, to correctly convey just what I mean by it.

And while I agree with your last statement: "The lycra clad riders are no more intimidating than a jockey after the race, a baseball practice or a swim meet." Obviously the OP doesn't. Nor does one meet swimmers at the local supermarket, or on the local street. So it is easy to see how "other folks" might find say a Speedo clad swimmer a bit odd... as odd say as a spandex clad cyclist or a silk wearing jockey, out on the street.

The OP conforms to my statement, someone already a cyclist allowing themselves to condemn a group based on the actions of a few. Non-cyclists will like or dis-like, or most likely, not care, about cyclist apparel as it it obviously activity specific.

And the wide availability of hybrid/comfort, these outselling the racing bikes, is a good sign I think you'll agree :) If it isn't that way down there yet it soon will be. The trouble is so many of these become garage ornaments that it's not easy to see the trend reflected on the streets.

So it is easy to see how "other folks" might find say a Speedo clad swimmer a bit odd... as odd say as a spandex clad cyclist or a silk wearing jockey, out on the street.

I live in Santa Cruz -- I see all types in the street. I can picture some of the folks in this forum gawking at them and making value judgments based on how they dress.

It's not all that unusual to see the equestrians in their riding garb in the local Safeway store -- the riding boots, crop pants and occasionally even their helmet. There are plenty of times when the pizza places are full of weekend athletes in their "funny" baseball, soccer or football clothes.

I'm personally not a fan of logo-emblazoned kit -- I tend to go for the plainest jerseys available. I don't prejudge all of the folks, however, who do go for that look.

It sounds like someone did a "real number" on you to make you so bitter about a matter of personal choice.

Hey Les, you might want to consider reading the thread before commenting. You missed Al's point completely.

Hi Fritz!

If somebody comes up behind me who is faster, I can easily pull over a little bit and let them pass by.

Diane, I'm a big believer in courtesy. Almost all of us will pull over if it's safe to do so.

I've seen the huge packs of cyclists on southern Illinois roads that the OP griped about. In many cases they're in the road because there's no shoulder, or because the shoulder is a mess of gravel and glass shards. If they're in the road, usually there's a pretty good reason. There's some judgement call involved and you and others in the roads-for-motorists-only crowd may disagree on that judgement, but they're the ones on the road. Of the places I've cycled, downstate Illinois is by far the worst so the cyclists may just be riding that way for their own protection.

Regarding one vs two (or three) abreast -- when you have a narrow road, you as a motorist really want the cyclists to be riding side to side. The passing distance is much shorter when they're like that, vs stretched out single file over half a mile.

Have you been on any group rides, Diane? Like Al mentioned already, one of the most common things you'll hear among the logo-wearing "arrogant" cyclists on their $4000 bikes and $600 in clothing is "car back" or (occasionally) "car up." And golly, the two-and-three abreast peloton will merge into a one-abreast paceline and scoot over for the traffic.

Diane, I'm a big believer in courtesy. Almost all of us will pull over if it's safe to do so.

...

Regarding one vs two (or three) abreast -- when you have a narrow road, you as a motorist really want the cyclists to be riding side to side. The passing distance is much shorter when they're like that, vs stretched out single file over half a mile.

Have you been on any group rides, Diane? Like Al mentioned already, one of the most common things you'll hear among the logo-wearing "arrogant" cyclists on their $4000 bikes and $600 in clothing is "car back" or (occasionally) "car up." And golly, the two-and-three abreast peloton will merge into a one-abreast paceline and scoot over for the traffic.
Right.
I also notice that in areas where weekend cycling is popular, what appears as a large group to a motorist may actually be several smaller groups all in the process of passing one another. This especially happens on hills which tend to spread out riders into clusters, or where small cluster may pass an individual or another small cluster up a hill. If there is no car back passing will start and one cluster passing another can create a momentary several abreast situation. The faster cluster is not going to suddenly fall back and abort the pass if a faster vehicle comes, but instead complete the pass, which may take 10-15 sec up a hill.

(Most of my observations come from the one hill in the area, which is a 15mph posted recreational driving road only. The others hills are almost always on multi lane roads where cyclists passing one another will take the entire outside lane leaving the inside for faster vehicles to pass.)

Al

If there is any bitterness on my part it is only that cyclists, those who claim to be advocates for cyclists, are perpetuating the stereotype that cyclists wearing athletic clothing, sometimes with logos, are more often than not arrogant or rude.

Al

I have experienced the same thing myself. I recall one incident when I saw my very first Colnago at an organized ride waiting for the start of the event. I looked at the guy and his bike, smiled and said "nice bike". He looked at me, then down at my bike, looked away as if I was not there.

Does that make be bitter against guys on fancy bikes? No. I am not ready to write off all cyclists because of his actions. He just happened to be the jerk that I met. I have met many nice people with nice bikes. The smile, share with you the features of your bike and tips on getting something similar if you want. In other words, they are friendly and approachable, like regular folk.

That's all I am saying. NO reason to be hold everybody accountable for a few bad apples.