Running red lights. For those that do it, it's a calculated risk (albeit poorly calculated on a majority of occasions). Once you're across the controlled zone and you haven't been apprehended then that's where it ends.
Think again.
This is an extract of an e-mail from the Southwark Borough Co-ordinator of the London Cycling Campaign (LCC), which highlights another effect of running red lights.
Southwark is divided up into 8 Community Councils. They each meet every
couple of months to discuss very local issues and each presents a very
good chance to talk to local Councillors and key officers at a public
meeting.
For the past few years, around this time, Southwark Cyclists have
regularly picked up small grants from the Community Council under the
Cleaner Greener Safer scheme.
When these meetings started 4 years ago any cyclist saying anything was
liable to shouted at with "well stop cycling on the pavements then".
Nowadays traffic calming, home zones and walking and cycling are all the
rage...but moods are volatile. This extract below from a mail I've just
sent to Southwark Cyclists elist explains.
Barry
07905 889 005
***********
O......first Community Council Cleaner Greener Safer application has
just come home to roost. We've got £5,000 to build some bike parking
cages in Peckham...like the excellents at Barnes Wetlands Centre. Any
Peckham person out there want to take this on?
And at Bermondsey Community Council - for the first time in ages - a
father stood up and spoke eloquently about red-light jumping cyclists
outside Bermondsey tube station endangering his 8 yo daughter every
morning/afternoon on the way to school. Said sad weepy eyed daughter
there beside him. Then the Cleaner Greener Safer spot. Unlike at better
run CC's people weren't allowed to vote for their
favourites....Councillors decided. And none of our three bids got anywhere.
Bad yobs on bikes.
For context;
Southwark is one of the Metropolitain Boroughs of Greater London and as such is afforded a degree of autonomy from the rest of the city (as all boroughs are) in self-governance.
Community Councils are the means by which the Local Authority represents itself to it's constituents and canvasses on how it should conduct itself and expend certain allocations of public funding. They are held on roughly a monthly basis.
Any person, company or organisation is allowed to make an application for the allocation of public funding and in the past Southwark Cyclists, the aforementioned borough group of the LCC, has been successful in securing funding for things like an enclosed and managed bike track for kids, free maintenance and repair work sessions for the general public, quality bike parking facilities, improvements to cycle routes, national standard cycling education for a primary school of over 2000 children.
Now, because some people feel the need to ignore the rules of the road and increase the public perception of danger posed by cyclists to pedestrians and so on, funding applications are failing.
Perhaps those that think that running red lights is OK would like to offer a defence?
tehdely
10-21-07, 02:39 AM
Wahh, wahh, other cyclists are ruining everything for me, won't other cyclists behave, why won't everyone do everything the way I do, why if I had the authority I'd
mstrpete
10-21-07, 03:43 AM
Breaking the law carries consequences; some obvious, some less so. Slow-rolling through a stop sign in a quiet neighborhood is one thing, but running red lights in a high-traffic area is just not a good plan, IMO. I'm sad for the OP and his neighborhood.
Dahon.Steve
10-21-07, 06:43 AM
Funding applications for cycle lanes, parking etc, are not based upon red light jumpers at all. It's easy for a city council to stop funding for the cyclist because the motorist always comes first. If they did say the funding was discontinued due to red light jumping, then this is only an excuse used. They never wanted to build them in the first place.
maddyfish
10-21-07, 07:17 AM
WHy not just stop at red lights?
Red light/stop signs jumpers do affect public perception. Why build stuff for a bunch of criminals?
aMull
10-21-07, 08:07 AM
WHy not just stop at red lights?
Because i see no point in waiting in front of an empty road maybe? Because i rather get a bit of a head start rather than race with the cars from the light? Frequently stopping also kills your momentum and gets annoying to be honest. I regularly roll through red lights at T-intersections, or those that are empty of traffic. If there is traffic, or i am at a major intersection i obviously stop.
JavaMan
10-21-07, 10:44 AM
What's wrong with minding your own business? Ride your bike and have fun.
San Rensho
10-21-07, 02:32 PM
OP-I am assuming that you are bringing out the often quoted argument against running red lights that "when you run a red, you give ALL cyclists a bad name and cause cyclists to be resented by drivers."
If the argument that breaking laws by a group of people leads to resentment of that group, then all drivers would be reviled, because everyone has seen a driver fly through a stop or blatantly run a red, but yet drivers are not universally hated.
Look, many people just hate cyclists, period. I'll be riding my bike down the street, obeying all laws, and people will yell, unprovoked, "Get the f@ck off the street!" The article you quote supports my position-
"When these meetings started 4 years ago any cyclist saying anything was
liable to shouted at with "well stop cycling on the pavements then"."
Running reds and stops is not unsafe, when it is done so in a way that it in no way interferes with anyone elses right of way. Many states have laws the allow cyclists to run red lights and stop signs (treat red lights and stops as yield signs), so it is very well established that running reds is a safe practice.
CB HI
10-21-07, 04:22 PM
Southwark must have really low taxes if they have stopped cycling funding due to a few cyclist breaking the law and motoring funding due to several motorist breaking the law. Count your blessings in all that tax money you save.
maddyfish
10-21-07, 05:41 PM
Because i see no point in waiting in front of an empty road maybe? Because i rather get a bit of a head start rather than race with the cars from the light? Frequently stopping also kills your momentum and gets annoying to be honest. I regularly roll through red lights at T-intersections, or those that are empty of traffic. If there is traffic, or i am at a major intersection i obviously stop.
I guess obeying the law is annoying? What other laws do you ignore because they are annoying?
Are you such a weak rider that you have a hard time accelerating from a stop?
maddyfish
10-21-07, 05:43 PM
If the argument that breaking laws by a group of people leads to resentment of that group, then all drivers would be reviled, because everyone has seen a driver fly through a stop or blatantly run a red, but yet drivers are not universally hated.
.
Sure I see cars run red lights, occasionally. But I RARELY see a bike stop at a light, or sign. Big difference.
maddyfish
10-21-07, 05:45 PM
Running reds and stops is not unsafe, when it is done so in a way that it in no way interferes with anyone elses right of way. Many states have laws the allow cyclists to run red lights and stop signs (treat red lights and stops as yield signs), so it is very well established that running reds is a safe practice.
BS
I was almost hit AGAIN by a guy on a black Trek in Ft. Thomas, Ky. last night while he was running a stop sign. I put my foot out at him, and would have punted him away if he'd have gotten closer.
Blue Order
10-21-07, 05:46 PM
=Many states have laws the allow cyclists to run red lights and stop signs (treat red lights and stops as yield signs), so it is very well established that running reds is a safe practice.OK, I'll call your bluff. Name five of the states that have these laws.
Dchiefransom
10-21-07, 06:13 PM
OK, I'll call your bluff. Name five of the states that have these laws.
Just one so far, Idaho.
ghettocruiser
10-21-07, 06:28 PM
I guess obeying the law is annoying? What other laws do you ignore because they are annoying?
Better not take your car into downtown Cincinnati, Oh. around rush hour. You'd be at a stop light in a long line of cars, I'd go by and you'd never see me again. And if by chance you did catch up, I'd show you a few handfulls of roofing nails.
Is there more than one guy using this account?
syn0n
10-21-07, 09:02 PM
Sure I see cars run red lights, occasionally. But I RARELY see a bike stop at a light, or sign. Big difference.
Exactly. Cars do run reds, but it's far, far less common than a bicycle running a stop light or sign. In fact, I'd say those of us who actually stop for lights and signs are in the minority. All of the excuses always seem pretty BS to me. It seems to be laziness, really.
YoungerNow
10-22-07, 04:23 AM
Are you such a weak rider that you have a hard time accelerating from a stop?
Are you such a weak debater that you have to insult the person you're debating?
Do any of the folks who are passionate about not running red lights also work to stamp out jaywalking?
maddyfish
10-22-07, 05:01 AM
Is there more than one guy using this account?
I go to the front of the line, and stop at the stop light/stop sign.
maddyfish
10-22-07, 05:02 AM
Are you such a weak debater that you have to insult the person you're debating?
Do any of the folks who are passionate about not running red lights also work to stamp out jaywalking?
No insult inteneded. It is an honest question. Maybe people who run stoplights/ stop signs are weak riders that have a hard time getting up to speed? Just trying to figure out why otherwise normal people would just pick a law and ignore it.
There is no debating that riders should follow the law.
bike2math
10-22-07, 07:10 AM
Because i see no point in waiting in front of an empty road maybe? Because i rather get a bit of a head start rather than race with the cars from the light? Frequently stopping also kills your momentum and gets annoying to be honest. I regularly roll through red lights at T-intersections, or those that are empty of traffic. If there is traffic, or i am at a major intersection i obviously stop.
:rolleyes: Same reason my friends and family give for speeding, for why it is okay to have three beers and still drive home, and for why even if you are falling asleep at the wheel you should keep driving. Yup all three are so incredibly annoying that it means you are only breaking an annoying law and it is therefore okay.
gosmsgo
10-22-07, 08:17 AM
Breaking the law carries consequences; some obvious, some less so. Slow-rolling through a stop sign in a quiet neighborhood is one thing, but running red lights in a high-traffic area is just not a good plan, IMO. I'm sad for the OP and his neighborhood.
There is not really any difference. They are both breaking the law and just proving that cyclists do not want or deserve their right to be on the road.
bmclaughlin807
10-22-07, 08:21 AM
There is not really any difference. They are both breaking the law and just proving that cyclists do not want or deserve their right to be on the road.
Sure. What about the THREE cars that nearly hit me yesterday running stop lights? Two making right turns without even slowing down, one making a left turn... WELL after the light turned red and mine turned green?
Do we have to mention how often cars roll through stop signs?
We won't even talk about speeders... or maybe we will. How about the guy that passed me illegally with less than 6" to spare when I was taking the lane and doing 35 in a 30 mph zone?
Can we cut funding for all the automobile-centric projects out there?
gosmsgo
10-22-07, 08:35 AM
Sure. What about the THREE cars that nearly hit me yesterday running stop lights? Two making right turns without even slowing down, one making a left turn... WELL after the light turned red and mine turned green?
Do we have to mention how often cars roll through stop signs?
We won't even talk about speeders... or maybe we will. How about the guy that passed me illegally with less than 6" to spare when I was taking the lane and doing 35 in a 30 mph zone?
Can we cut funding for all the automobile-centric projects out there?
I'm sure that your thoughts make you feel better about yourself but I have a bet for you.
You and I will stand next to any stop sign in any city and I will give you $100 for every bike that stops at a stop sign if you give me $5.00 for every one that does not.
You know as well as I do that 99% of cyclists run stop signs and stop lights. Hell, just the other day I was pulling my big trailer, signalling and stopped (foot down) at a stop sign. When I started to go and make a right hand turn I was nearly hit by a woman who ran the sign and passed me on the right!!!
That crap happens all the time and other cyclists are amuch greater hazard to my health than cars because I know that the cars will have some respect for traffic laws.
bmclaughlin807
10-22-07, 08:38 AM
Any stop sign???? I'd take that. I can find a dozen stop signs that EVERY cyclist stops at. More than that.
Follow me around sometime, and count how many stop signs I run. (I'll give you a hint: It will be very close to 0% of all stop signs I come across)
I can show you stop signs that 90% or more of cars run every day. Stop lights as well (At least on right turns)
It's downright scary at times. :(
gosmsgo
10-22-07, 09:41 AM
Things are certainly different in your town then they are in mine.
Of course I live right next to a large university so that probably does not help my perception any.
dynodonn
10-22-07, 10:14 AM
I'll slow roll through a stop sign on quiet back streets when there is no vehicular or ped traffic present, but I will always come to a full stop at stop signs at busy intersections. I always stop at red lights, and since my heavily loaded winter commuter will trip the signal sensor at all the stop lights on my commute, threre's no need to cross on a red light. My lighter road bike has a little more difficulty in tripping the signal sensor, but there's either a motor vehicle waiting at the light or a ped crossing button available to change the light. Sure, I've seen plenty of cyclists who won't wait or push the ped button and cross on the red light, but from my observations, they get a lot less respect from the motorists waiting at the same red light if they happen to take the roadway and not ride on the sidewalk.
San Rensho
10-22-07, 10:29 AM
Just one so far, Idaho.
I stand corrected.
San Rensho
10-22-07, 10:35 AM
BS
I was almost hit AGAIN by a guy on a black Trek in Ft. Thomas, Ky. last night while he was running a stop sign. I put my foot out at him, and would have punted him away if he'd have gotten closer.
Well, he didn't yeild the right of way then, did he? My argument is that running a red or stop is OK as long as you don't violate someone's right of way, so your experience doesn't negate my proposition.
aMull
10-22-07, 02:16 PM
I guess obeying the law is annoying? What other laws do you ignore because they are annoying?
Are you such a weak rider that you have a hard time accelerating from a stop?
No, waiting for an empty street is annoying. I have no trouble accelerating from a stop, the fact of stopping when you're rolling at a good pace is what's not fun when you get to repeated it so many times.
maddyfish
10-22-07, 02:49 PM
Well, he didn't yeild the right of way then, did he? My argument is that running a red or stop is OK as long as you don't violate someone's right of way, so your experience doesn't negate my proposition.
So you carf about right of way, but not the law? ANd what about when you decide to run a stop sign because you don't feel you're breaking anybodies right of way, and you don't see the other biker, or car that was there first?
maddyfish
10-22-07, 02:50 PM
No, waiting for an empty street is annoying. I have no trouble accelerating from a stop, the fact of stopping when you're rolling at a good pace is what's not fun when you get to repeated it so many times.
Lots of laws are annoying. If we ignored them all it would be chaos.
In fact for me, blasting from stoplight to stoplight is one of the most fun things I do on a bike.
tomg
10-22-07, 08:12 PM
run a red light, get a ticket, pay the fine.
how's that for an angle?
Dchiefransom
10-22-07, 08:30 PM
Any stop sign???? I'd take that. I can find a dozen stop signs that EVERY cyclist stops at. More than that.
Follow me around sometime, and count how many stop signs I run. (I'll give you a hint: It will be very close to 0% of all stop signs I come across)
I can show you stop signs that 90% or more of cars run every day. Stop lights as well (At least on right turns)
It's downright scary at times. :(
The most dangerous part of my mail route is not when I cross a 4 lane 35mph street in the middle of the block, it's when I'm at the stoplight crossing in the crosswalk with a "WALK" signal.
gcottay
10-23-07, 09:06 AM
. . . a
father stood up and spoke eloquently about red-light jumping cyclists
outside Bermondsey tube station endangering his 8 yo daughter every
morning/afternoon on the way to school. Said sad weepy eyed daughter
there beside him . . .
Could this actually be happening as described, with light jumping riders endangering a child twice daily to the point of tears? If so, I am amazed at the apparent parental restraint. Though a generally peaceful person, I would be moved to violence if law enforcement efforts failed.
George
aMull
10-23-07, 10:04 AM
run a red light, get a ticket, pay the fine.
how's that for an angle?
It's a good angle, and i don't do it with cops around.
zoltani
10-23-07, 12:08 PM
I think that the laws need to be changed because we are not motor vehicles, and the infrastructure and signaling is set up for them not for us. In my opinion the law should read that a stop sign should be treated as a yield sign and a stop light treated as a stop sign for cyclists. Isn't that what currently goes on anyway. When a ped crosses on red, which is illegal, do we arrest or ticket them? No, because they are making a conscious decision to cross that street and in doing so assumes the responsibility of the outcome, i.e. getting flattened in the cross walk. Similarly, when i look and see no traffic at a red light and decide to proceed through the intersection i know all of the risks involved and i am assuming those risks.
I want more cities to explore bicycle priority signaling or zones. At a four way stop in one of the bicycle priority zones the motorists must wait for all cyclists to pass before proceeding through the intersection. Most of these zones would be along side streets that a lot of cyclists take. If the motorists get tired of waiting at one intersection for all of the bikes then they can start to take a bike instead of their car. You know what they say, if you can't beat them join them....
ignominious
10-26-07, 10:40 AM
Funding applications for cycle lanes, parking etc, are not based upon red light jumpers at all. It's easy for a city council to stop funding for the cyclist because the motorist always comes first. If they did say the funding was discontinued due to red light jumping, then this is only an excuse used. They never wanted to build them in the first place.
Not quite the situation in Southwark.
With the Community Councils, an amount of money is made available by the local authority for them to spend as they wish, provided that it falls certain criteria (not that limited). The proposals for spending the allocated funding are put to the council by the constituents (TBH you don't even need to be a constituent as long as the work will take place in the area covered by the community council) and after a period of consideration and questioning, the proposals are put to the public vote. The actual councillors (effectively like MPs for the local authority) don't vote on it, it's solely down to the members of the public who are present at the time. Truly democratic stuff.
gabdy
10-27-07, 04:50 AM
If you want to be treated like a vehicle, then you should ride as if it is a vehicle.
The only time I will run a redlight is when I have waited and I haven't tripped the censors and no cars are coming along to trip it for me. I stop at pedestrian crossings when someones waiting and stop signs.
aMull
10-27-07, 07:33 AM
ride as if it is a vehicle.
But it's not, it's a bicycle. I have certain advantages, like the advantage of a car being able to go 60km/h without a problem. Maybe i should ask motorists to drive as if they were bicycles?
dobber
10-27-07, 08:02 AM
Wahh, wahh, other cyclists are ruining everything for me, won't other cyclists behave, why won't everyone do everything the way I do, why if I had the authority I'd
Thanks for lowering the bar.
cyccommute
10-27-07, 09:54 AM
Do any of the folks who are passionate about not running red lights also work to stamp out jaywalking?
Yes. Because I got nailed on my bike by a woman running across the street to catch her friends midblock. Perfect body check which put me and her on the ground but I broke her fall. She jumped up said "Sorry" and ran off leaving me with a bent crank, road rash and a bruised hip.
Almost had the same happen with an idiot red light runner on a bike near home. She filtered to the front of the line at 15+ miles per hour and darted through the intersection just as I crossed the center line on a green. I almost t-boned her. She didn't even say sorry but just glared at me. And, no, I wasn't in a car nor was I hugging the curb.
PaulH
10-27-07, 09:54 AM
Just a curious, non-judgemental question to red light runners - how long did it take to overcome your inhibitions against running reds?
Paul
cyccommute
10-27-07, 10:05 AM
BS
I was almost hit AGAIN by a guy on a black Trek in Ft. Thomas, Ky. last night while he was running a stop sign. I put my foot out at him, and would have punted him away if he'd have gotten closer.
Pretty much the same problem I have with red light runners here. I've had several close calls because the boneheads cyclists are looking for cars and don't see the cyclist. We have a street that leads into downtown that has a huge hill. It's easy to get up to 35 mph on it and it has 3 intersections that have a lot of bike traffic. I have to watch like the bicycle traffic on the 3 intersections like a hawk because they will pull out in front of me and, at 35 mph, I going to do some damage to both of us.
Red light running and stop sign running becomes a habit and, from what I've observed, it's not the kind of habit where people look before they run the control device. They just blow through it and everyone else should watch out for them.
gabdy
10-27-07, 11:24 AM
But it's not, it's a bicycle. I have certain advantages, like the advantage of a car being able to go 60km/h without a problem. Maybe i should ask motorists to drive as if they were bicycles?
Yer, maybe you should.
Google Define says
Definitions of vehicle on the Web:
a conveyance that transports people or objects
Vehicles are non-living means of transportation. They are most often man-made (e.g. bicycles, cars, motorcycles, trains, ships, and aircraft), although some other means of transportation which are not made by man can also be called vehicles; examples include icebergs and floating tree trunks.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle
San Rensho
10-27-07, 12:39 PM
Just a curious, non-judgemental question to red light runners - how long did it take to overcome your inhibitions against running reds?
Paul
I quickly learned that to be safe on a bicycle, you can never assume you have the right of way, take it only when you know for sure that you can safely do so. So even when I have a green, I will NEVER assume that the car that has the red will give me the right of way. In fact, I will assume the car will not yield and mentally prepare a contingency plan in case the car does not yield to me. I only take it when I know for sure it is safe.
From that premise, its very easy to run reds. Look to see if there is traffic and if you can run the red without interfering at all with anyone elses right of way, be it ped, car or bike, then go through the red.
When I ride, I essentially ignore lights. I use them to the extent that they help predict the actions of other traffic, but I never rely on them. I always make sure that I am safe in relation to other traffic, no matter what they do, and no matter what the light says.
Remember, running a red is not morally wrong, its not like burning kittens alive. Running a red its more like violating regulations that require your house to be painted a certain color. There is no moral component to it.
aMull
10-27-07, 02:31 PM
They just blow through it and everyone else should watch out for them.
Well rest assured i'm not one of those people. I go through a red when i'm sure i am not interfering with anyone. I blow through stops when i have a clear view of all directions and the road is empty. If i don't have a clear view i slow, if there are vehicles on the road i stop. Works for me.
cyccommute
10-27-07, 05:50 PM
I quickly learned that to be safe on a bicycle, you can never assume you have the right of way, take it only when you know for sure that you can safely do so. So even when I have a green, I will NEVER assume that the car that has the red will give me the right of way. In fact, I will assume the car will not yield and mentally prepare a contingency plan in case the car does not yield to me. I only take it when I know for sure it is safe.
From that premise, its very easy to run reds. Look to see if there is traffic and if you can run the red without interfering at all with anyone elses right of way, be it ped, car or bike, then go through the red.
When I ride, I essentially ignore lights. I use them to the extent that they help predict the actions of other traffic, but I never rely on them. I always make sure that I am safe in relation to other traffic, no matter what they do, and no matter what the light says.
Remember, running a red is not morally wrong, its not like burning kittens alive. Running a red its more like violating regulations that require your house to be painted a certain color. There is no moral component to it.
There is a moral component to it. If you blow a stoplight and get creamed, the person that hit you suffers the consequences. They may not get a summons for a violation but they have to live with the thought that they cause you harm. Trust me, it's not an easy thing to live with. I have first hand experience...not once but twice. It's a cold hearted ******* that doesn't feel remorse for harming another human.
bike2math
10-27-07, 06:03 PM
Remember, running a red is not morally wrong, its not like burning kittens alive. Running a red its more like violating regulations that require your house to be painted a certain color. There is no moral component to it.
BS. There is a moral component to it: if you cause an accident you are responsible for the harm and damage done. I just hope its not a little kid, or me for that matter, that you clober. Sure it isn't animal abuse, but it also isn't an action devoid of consequences.
gosmsgo
10-27-07, 06:07 PM
But it's not, it's a bicycle. I have certain advantages, like the advantage of a car being able to go 60km/h without a problem. Maybe i should ask motorists to drive as if they were bicycles?
ding, ding, ding
We have figured out most of our problems and its this kind of thinking.
JohnBrooking
10-27-07, 08:27 PM
If the argument that breaking laws by a group of people leads to resentment of that group, then all drivers would be reviled, because everyone has seen a driver fly through a stop or blatantly run a red, but yet drivers are not universally hated.
Only because motorists are in the majority, so they'd have to hate themselves. Someone in the other thread about red light running made this point (sorry, I forget who), and I think it's right on. It's easy to use any observed negative behavior to justify an already low opinion of a minority population, when you would never apply the same logic to your own majority. Human nature.