Bicycle Mechanics - Rear Hub less than $100 for a Clydesdale?

What do Clydes need to worry about with rear hubs? Any good picks under $100 that should be fine for a 280# 6-1" Clydesdale? What do more expensive hubs really do? Is the rolling resistance different on mtb hubs than road hubs?

It'll be going on a Nishiki Sport that had 27" wheels (plenty of clearance for the brakes so going down to 700c shouldn't be a problem). I'd like to go with Shimano compatible, 36 holes up to 8 speed (but realize I could get different cassettes on with spacers). I'm using friction shifters so I'm not all that concerned with groups and types and so forth. I'll probably have Peter White or Harris Cyclery build up the wheel with DB spokes on Deep Vs since I've had wheel trouble all summer and really want to be done with it after this. I'm in NYC so while I don't go offroad with my roadie some of the roads are less than perfectly paved (mildly put!).

For example, how's the Tiagra 4500 (http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/hubs.html#road) vs the Shimano XT M-760 vs Shimano LX M-580 (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/rearhubs.asp)? Is the XT really worth an extra $20, if so why? I know that the latter are mtb spacing (135) while I'm guessing I have 130 but found this this bit (http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/rec.bicycles.tech/msg21588.html) on dealing with that.

I took my friend's bike for a quick spin yesterday - he had 23mm tires on Deep Vs and Deore hubs with disc brakes. It felt like I was riding through pudding, lots of resistance which I thought was odd for skinny tires. (I was on my beater mtb with a shot rear hub and 2" tires so I should have felt like I was flying). Is that characteristic of mtb hubs - stronger but more resistance?

Backstory Threads:

http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=253192 - First Roadie
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=262759 - Dialing in a Roadie
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=294905 - How many broken spokes are dangerous
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=298310 - Rear deraileur rubbing - bad tension?
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=342373 - Bombproof 27" Rims
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=349283 - Shot Rims and Clyde Recommendations?
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=349519 - Deep V vs Dyad vs Mavic Opens
http://bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=352240 - Friction Shifters

Thanks - you guys have been so helpful as I work out this whole wheel thing, hopefully this'll be the last 'installment' of questions :D

Best value out there is a Tiagra, for $28. It's barely 5g heavier than an Ultegra rear, and it's available in 36h. If you want to really do it right, spend another $5 on new ball bearings for it out of the box, to get the full-hardness bearings.

A tandem hub would be cool too, if it could be re-spaced for your frame, or your frame cold-set for the hub. The Shimano HF08 is $115, and is a really stout hub.

It'll be going on a Nishiki Sport that had 27" wheels (plenty of clearance for the brakes so going down to 700c shouldn't be a problem)...... I know that the latter are mtb spacing (135) while I'm guessing I have 130.....
If your Nishiki had 27" wheels, I expect your rear spacing is more likely to be 126 mm. What "speed" rear freehub or freewheel does it have? If it's 6/7-speed, then it's probably 126 mm.


I took my friend's bike for a quick spin yesterday - he had 23mm tires on Deep Vs and Deore hubs with disc brakes. It felt like I was riding through pudding, lots of resistance which I thought was odd for skinny tires. (I was on my beater mtb with a shot rear hub and 2" tires so I should have felt like I was flying). Is that characteristic of mtb hubs - stronger but more resistance?
No, MTB hubs have very nearly the same smoothness as road hubs. Their seals may be a little tighter but the rolling resistance difference should be insignificant. I expect either your friend's bike has a serious mis-adjustment or you were in a much higher gear ratio and that's why it felt harder. Any chance his brakes were mis-aligned and dragging?

What do Clydes need to worry about with rear hubs?Basically, nothing. Hubs don't generally fail due to rider weight. Any good picks under $100 that should be fine for a 280# 6-1" Clydesdale?[/QUOTE]Any genuine Shimano hub will work fine for you. (By the way, your height has nothing to do with this issue.)

I do strongly advise staying away from off brand or "boutique" hubs. In my opinion, the only hubs that are better than Shimano are Phil Wood, which are super 'spensive.


What do more expensive hubs really do? Is the rolling resistance different on mtb hubs than road hubs?More expensive Shimano hubs are typically a wee bit lighter, and may be slightly better sealed. However, even the bottom of the line Shimano models are better than anything else.

Where weight is an issue, I would advise going for one of the so-called "mountain" models due to the 135 mm spacing. This will make for a stronger wheel. When heavy riders have wheel trouble, it's generally spoke issues that end their rides early. 135 mm hubs use less asymmetry in dish, so the resulting wheels are significantly less likely to suffer spoke failures.


What do Clydes need to worry about with rear hubs?Basically, nothing. Hubs don't generally fail due to rider weight. Any good picks under $100 that should be fine for a 280# 6-1" Clydesdale?[/QUOTE]Any genuine Shimano hub will work fine for you. (By the way, your height has nothing to do with this issue.)

I do strongly advise staying away from off brand or "boutique" hubs. In my opinion, the only hubs that are better than Shimano are Phil Wood, which are super 'spensive.


I'd like to go with Shimano compatible, 36 holes up to 8 speed (but realize I could get different cassettes on with spacers).Right. Don't pay any attention to the "n-speed" designation when buying a new hub. All current models work with any number of sprockets from 7 to 10 (excepting the silly Dura-Ace 10-speed version.)


I took my friend's bike for a quick spin yesterday - he had 23mm tires on Deep Vs and Deore hubs with disc brakes. It felt like I was riding through pudding, lots of resistance which I thought was odd for skinny tires. (I was on my beater mtb with a shot rear hub and 2" tires so I should have felt like I was flying). Is that characteristic of mtb hubs - stronger but more resistance? No. Assuming the hub was properly adjusted, there should be no significant difference in frictional resistance.

If you search around the Web you'll find lots of folks ranking on the lower-end models, but some of this is driven by snobbery and ignorance, and some of it is driven by the fact that bike shops sometimes tend to skimp on assembly of lower end bikes, so the less expensive hubs are often supplied with incorrect cone adjustment.

The bike you rode may also have had a dragging brake...not uncommon with disc brakes.

Sheldon "It's The Tires, Not The Hubs" Brown

If your Nishiki had 27" wheels, I expect your rear spacing is more likely to be 126 mm. What "speed" rear freehub or freewheel does it have? If it's 6/7-speed, then it's probably 126 mm.

Ahh - you're right, I checked again (and it was a 6 speed freewheel) and it's closer to 126 than 130. (I swear one day I'll get a ruler in mms...)


No, MTB hubs have very nearly the same smoothness as road hubs. Their seals may be a little tighter but the rolling resistance difference should be insignificant. I expect either your friend's bike has a serious mis-adjustment or you were in a much higher gear ratio and that's why it felt harder. Any chance his brakes were mis-aligned and dragging?

It didn't sound like the brakes were rubbing (this was even just rolling on a level surface) but it's possible. Could have been air pressure too I guess - just wanted to make sure it had nothing to do with the hub. Next time I see him I'll check to make sure they aren't rubbing - or maybe not to make sure he doesn't drop me ;)


Basically, nothing. Hubs don't generally fail due to rider weight. Any good picks under $100 that should be fine for a 280# 6-1" Clydesdale. Any genuine Shimano hub will work fine for you. (By the way, your height has nothing to do with this issue.)

That's what I hoped for - awesome :) [I figured the height didn't have anything to do with it but I've gotten used to giving my 'stats' whenever I describe an issue :D ]



Where weight is an issue, I would advise going for one of the so-called "mountain" models due to the 135 mm spacing. This will make for a stronger wheel. When heavy riders have wheel trouble, it's generally spoke issues that end their rides early.

Yes, yes it does...


135 mm hubs use less asymmetry in dish, so the resulting wheels are significantly less likely to suffer spoke failures.

I always wondered what made them 'stronger' but never would have thought it had to do more with the spacing than construction. Sounds like at this point I'll probably go with the mtb hub for the rear.

[Edit - I've read this (http://sheldonbrown.com/k7.html) page a dozen times over the last year before posting but never saw or I guess fully understood that one sentence where you said this - DoH! ]

Thanks for the replies!

-----------------------

One more question: a friend gave me a Campagnolo Record road hub (from the 70's - has the grease cover on it) with a tubular Fiamme rim. I'm thinking of using that hub and building (or having built) the the front wheel (also 36 spoke Deep Vs). I was pretty set on doing that until I read about the Tiagra - is this still a good idea or should I start with a new Tiagra instead?

Thanks again!

One more question: a friend gave me a Campagnolo Record road hub (from the 70's - has the grease cover on it) with a tubular Fiamme rim. I'm thinking of using that hub and building (or having built) the the front wheel (also 36 spoke Deep Vs). I was pretty set on doing that until I read about the Tiagra - is this still a good idea or should I start with a new Tiagra instead?

Thanks again!
As long as you are going to build a front wheel around an existing hub, the Campy Record is as good as they come. Just be sure the races and cones are in good shape before investing in the new rim, spokes and labor.

However, you will probably find that buying a complete new wheel is less expensive than having an existing hub built up.

I do strongly advise staying away from off brand or "boutique" hubs. In my opinion, the only hubs that are better than Shimano are Phil Wood, which are super 'spensive.

Sheldon "It's The Tires, Not The Hubs" Brown

Really? So even the high-buck hubs from Chris King, White Industries, Velocity, DT Swiss -- not an improvement over Shimano? That's very helpful to know -- I almost plunked down the long green for some King hubs, and thought I was compromising when I went with XT. Now I feel better (and strangely smarter, somehow). Thanks once again to the great bearded oracle of bicycle knowledge.

However, you will probably find that buying a complete new wheel is less expensive than having an existing hub built up.

Is that ever an option for clydesdale though?

Really? So even the high-buck hubs from Chris King, White Industries, Velocity, DT Swiss -- not an improvement over Shimano? That's very helpful to know -- I almost plunked down the long green for some King hubs, and thought I was compromising when I went with XT. Now I feel better (and strangely smarter, somehow). Thanks once again to the great bearded oracle of bicycle knowledge.

Yeah, funny how that works: look at those DT Swiss hubs - $160, $350, $410, $540, $800 or more - and it doesn't matter. It's just a tax on those too rich and stupid to know better.

"ooohhh... but it has ceramic bearings!"

to which I say

"ooohhh... shiny!!"

Yeah, funny how that works: look at those DT Swiss hubs - $160, $350, $410, $540, $800 or more - and it doesn't matter. It's just a tax on those too rich and stupid to know better.

"ooohhh... but it has ceramic bearings!"

to which I say

"ooohhh... shiny!!"

Yeah, the only real argument is weight, as those White Ind F1s are some freaking light hubs. Then you go evaluate the benefit of light hubs, and it starts looking ******** again. Still, they are lighter, by 100% or more.

Yeah, the only real argument is weight, as those White Ind F1s are some freaking light hubs. Then you go evaluate the benefit of light hubs, and it starts looking ******** again. Still, they are lighter, by 100% or more.

And saving half the weight of a hub is virtually useless to us clydesdales... :) Do the expensive hubs even come drilled for 36 spokes?

And saving half the weight of a hub is virtually useless to us clydesdales... :) Do the expensive hubs even come drilled for 36 spokes?

hell noes! 32h max. I think a lightweight hub adds virtually no value for any adult :)

The spinning mass of a light vs heavy hub wouldn't even matter all that much, would it?

I'll lose the 235 grams off my arse and spend the rest on beer, thank you very much :D

+1000. Take the $$ you were going to spend on a hub and get a bomber rim instead. That's what you're likely to kill as a Clyde.

Yup, think the Deep Vs are going to be bomb proof and I can go to narrower tires.

Yeah, the only real argument is weight, as those White Ind F1s are some freaking light hubs. Then you go evaluate the benefit of light hubs, and it starts looking ******** again. Still, they are lighter, by 100% or more.
Be careful...it's easy to get fooled. Boutique hubs are generally supplied (and weighed!) without skewers, while Shimano hubs include the skewers!

If you just look at the specs, it makes the weight difference appear considerably greater than it really is.

It also makes the cost difference appear less than it really is, since you still have to buy a skewer to go with your boutique hub.

Shimano makes the best skewers in the world, and they come included with the hubs!

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/qr

Sheldon "Don't Get Skewered By Deceptive Marketing" Brown

FWIW heavier riders break wheels due to improper spoke tension and spokes breaking at the elbow 99% of the time. You are unlikely to damage the hub from just riding it or even abuse offroad until you've nearly rebuilt the wheel's worth of spokes.

I would suggest straight 14ga spokes, get a good spoke to begin with (DT, Wheelsmith, Phil Wood), and IMHO, any hub with STRAIGHT PULL spokes is going to potentially result in a much more durable wheel.

In the past 6 or 7 years of my more serious cycling, through about 6 wheel sets, wheels I built, factory built, etc. the only wheels that didn't break spokes regularly were those without elbows in the spokes. I have broken exactly one elbowless spoke in this time period, and probably 30 or more regular spokes.

Given that, I think the benefits of a hub that accommodates straight pull spokes far outweighs whatever factors in hub weight, durability etc. may be present, for heavier riders.

Be careful...it's easy to get fooled. Boutique hubs are generally supplied (and weighed!) without skewers, while Shimano hubs include the skewers!

If you just look at the specs, it makes the weight difference appear considerably greater than it really is.

It also makes the cost difference appear less than it really is, since you still have to buy a skewer to go with your boutique hub.

Shimano makes the best skewers in the world, and they come included with the hubs!

See also: http://sheldonbrown.com/qr

Sheldon "Don't Get Skewered By Deceptive Marketing" Brown

That's a very good point. An Ultegra rear weighs 350g w/out skewer. An F1 weighs 226g. The value of 124g is certainly overplayed though.

And I'll never use a skewer other than a Shimano :beer: Of course, I only have Shimano hubs at this point.

Shimano makes the best skewers in the world, and they come included with the hubs!

Shimano skewers are reason enough to buy the hub. They are also much quieter when coasting than many other hubs.

They may be good skewers, but I use bolt-on skewers almost exclusively, and mostly special-keyed, to lessen the likelyhood of theft. Or was it likelihood...

They may be good skewers, but I use bolt-on skewers almost exclusively, and mostly special-keyed, to lessen the likelyhood of theft. Or was it likelihood...

I also prefer security skewers for my urban bike. Makes for less hassles when simply running into a retailer to shop.

Too bad most aren't going to stop a determined professional thief. They should use security torx sockets instead of simply hex.
And the outer collar should be floating so that it rotates freely if a visegrip is applied.

Speaking of skewers, has any company thought of the idea of making the skewer lever double as a tire iron?
I know one company made their seatpost binder into a tire iron.

I've seen bolt on wheels stolen as well as quick release. QR has the added benefit of being able to take off your front and lock it with a U lock through the rear wheel inside the rear triangle of the frame, where as you need a wrench to accomplish the same task with the security torx (which are easily defeated by vice grips) or bolt on.

I do strongly advise staying away from off brand or "boutique" hubs. In my opinion, the only hubs that are better than Shimano are Phil Wood, which are super 'spensive.


I'm curious in what way(s) do you consider a shimano hub better than a king hub, for instance? Or is that something you'd not care to expand on for risk of coming to blows with Mr. King?

I have no opinion on king hubs myself, far too poor, I'm just curious.

FWIW heavier riders break wheels due to improper spoke tension and spokes breaking at the elbow 99% of the time. You are unlikely to damage the hub from just riding it or even abuse offroad until you've nearly rebuilt the wheel's worth of spokes.

I would suggest straight 14ga spokes, get a good spoke to begin with (DT, Wheelsmith, Phil Wood), and IMHO, any hub with STRAIGHT PULL spokes is going to potentially result in a much more durable wheel.

In the past 6 or 7 years of my more serious cycling, through about 6 wheel sets, wheels I built, factory built, etc. the only wheels that didn't break spokes regularly were those without elbows in the spokes. I have broken exactly one elbowless spoke in this time period, and probably 30 or more regular spokes.

Given that, I think the benefits of a hub that accommodates straight pull spokes far outweighs whatever factors in hub weight, durability etc. may be present, for heavier riders.

You probably wouldn't have so many problems at the elbows if you used butted spokes instead of straight guage.

I'm curious in what way(s) do you consider a shimano hub better than a king hub, for instance? Or is that something you'd not care to expand on for risk of coming to blows with Mr. King?

I have no opinion on king hubs myself, far too poor, I'm just curious.

The King hubs sound like a swarm of angry bees.

Boutique bearings are cartridge, which are higher rolling resistance than loose-ball in Shimano and Campy group hubs. Generally, boutique freehubs suck and don't last as long.

Generally, boutique freehubs suck and don't last as long.

Do you have any proof to back that up?

I realize most of the posters on this thread are roadies and commuters, but in mountain biking, there is nothing worse than a shimano hub, at least in my opinion. First, the seals suck. Second, the freehubs are week, and do fail, I've seen it first hand. Also, their 18 point engagement leaves a lot to be desired. And lets not forget about the weight.

If you really want to stick with loose ball, road hubs, campy has always made a better hub than shimano anyway.

only in the special mystical world of cycling are people prepared to put up with cup and cone hubs. maybe when shimano start providing dynamic load ratings for their hubs i'll pay attention, but until then give me the biggest cartridge bearings you can find.

Do you have any proof to back that up?

If you really want to stick with loose ball, road hubs, campy has always made a better hub than shimano anyway.

I can throw your own rebuttal back at you for that last statement. Where's the beef?
Given that you're now referring to road products.

Campys fail too, they aren't perfect. I had a small flange Record rear 5-spd hub's NDS flange fail.
A bizarre failure one doesn't see often and not one expected of Campy's reputation.
It wasn't subjected to anything out of the ordinary. Likely a defect, **** happens.

Many companies make some damn good products, a few are marginal. Shimano has designed a better mousetrap more often than others and opened new markets.
I've ran Shimano, Suntour, Specialized, Campy, Maillard, Stronglight, hubs. Except for the Campy incident, none have failed. A few bent axles now and then.

The original topic was concerning cost. I'm a semi-clyde (200lbs) and have had great success with used Dura Ace hubs found in parts bins and eBay.

Reasons I like used shimano (DA) hubs:

1) compatibility - put a 10spd cassette on an 8spd freehub from 10 years ago
2) cold forged - specifically for DA, these flanges tend to last a long time. I spoked my front wheel radially with confidence
3) cheap - I've been able to pick up a front and rear DA 32H hub for about $30-35 a piece.

Also, loose bearings are cheap and easy to obtain in quantity - for $25 I got 2x100qty bags of grade 25 1/4" and 3/16" bearings and a tube of Phil's grease. I could repack 6 more hubs before I run out. That's money well spent in my opinion.

If you really want to stick with loose ball, road hubs, campy has always made a better hub than shimano anyway.Well...all generalizations are false...

Back in the days of thread-on freewheels, no question that Campagnolo was the best of the loose ball hubs, the only thing better was Phil Wood and maybe Maxicar. Nothing else came close.

However, when cassette Freehubs became the norm, Shimano left Campagnolo in the dust. The Campagnolo models with steel axles (8-speeds, most 9-speeds) were prone to axle failure with heavier riders.

Campagnolo re-designed their hubs a couple of years ago, with an oversized aluminum axle. These hubs seem to be quite reliable. Still more prone to spoke breakage than Shimano, due to more leftward flange placement. Also not available in 135 mm spacing.


Reasons I like used shimano (DA) hubs:

1) compatibility - put a 10spd cassette on an 8spd freehub from 10 years ago
2) cold forged - specifically for DA, these flanges tend to last a long time. I spoked my front wheel radially with confidence That's a biggie. It's not just Dura-Ace. I believe ALL Shimano hubs are forged. That's one of their big plusses vs the "boutique" brands. Boutique hubs are generally machined from billet or bar stock, so the grain structure of their spoke flanges is unfavorable for the stresses applied by the spokes.

Sheldon "Forging Rocks!" Brown

Do you have any proof to back that up?

I have had two friends with American Classic freehub failures in the first week of ownership. I know several people with Mavic freehub failures. Anything as noise as a King freehub should be considered to be crap by default -- if nothing else, it's taking away from your coasting energy (more noise = more energy loss).

Also, just years and years of monitoring r.b.t have led me to feel this way.

I mountain biked (including racing) for eight years in Colorado and Utah on the same Shimano LX hub with no freehub problems. I still ride it.

I've seen bolt on wheels stolen as well as quick release. QR has the added benefit of being able to take off your front and lock it with a U lock through the rear wheel inside the rear triangle of the frame, where as you need a wrench to accomplish the same task with the security torx (which are easily defeated by vice grips) or bolt on.

Nobody said they can't be stolen. Everything can be stolen, it's just the degree of inconvenience that you try to increase.

You know how safes are rated? In how many minutes and seconds a thief can open it up, if he had access to any tool he/she wants. The best safe ever was rated to 1 hour.

So it sounds like forging is the biggest plus.

I can't stand the sound of king hubs. They're very cool looking and I'm sure they're fine hubs, but I think I'd go nuts listening to that zipper sound.