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Nightshade
10-22-07, 12:34 PM
In the not to distant future the oil tap may either run dry
or get shut off in some fashion. Either way there is NO
fuel to buy and it's so bad that vehicle fuel tanks are
getting siphon dry by theives.

Were talking down & dirty no fuel "you walk or else" life.

What would/could you do to get by??

(I post this because I'm tired of all the whining about
"not being able to" when "all would have to" when there's
no fuel except for the military & gov't officials)

kc9eog
10-22-07, 12:37 PM
It would be easy to live in that world, until I lost my job and the grocery store closed. But I would be able to get around easy enough. Until my bicycle broke down and I couldn't get spare parts...

gosmsgo
10-22-07, 12:58 PM
ARe you trying to say that we should not use oil so a fat lady who is 100 pounds overweight cannot haul her one fat kid in a 2,000 pound vehicle when we could save it for farming or manufacturing!!!!

How crazy. What is that fat lady supposed to do??? EXERCISE!?!?!?!?! Hey, do you know how hard it is to be a big fat ass!!??!!??

It aint easy ok....and her kid is big boned and besides you should except them both for being fat.

slowjoe66
10-22-07, 01:34 PM
I often wonder about those scenarios. I remember working in a gas station in the late 70's as my first job trying to save enough money to buy my first car. There was gas rationing. You could only get gas on even/odd days based on a certain number in you license plate. It was funny. People would sit in long lines-10-30 cars until the pumps opened for a specified amount of time (until the gas ran out). What people would do is they would top off their tanks, even if they had a mostly full tank if it was their day, making the lines even longer. Everybody had this sort of a "I've gotta get mine" attitude.

I drive a garbage truck for a living. I could certainly see the governments saying that all doctors, hospital employees, fire, police, garbage trucks, government and utility vehicles etc. would get the gas they needed for "public safety". Where would that leave the fat lady and her "big boned" kid? OUT of luck.

Platy
10-22-07, 03:03 PM
It's extreme to assume no motor fuel available at any cost. Extreme but not unprecedented, with a parallel situation being maybe the collapse of the old Soviet Union.

I doubt most people would have jobs to go to. We'd have to get to know our local families and neighbors a lot better. We'd barter the accumulated stuff that's saved in our garages and mini storage warehouses and probably be eating cans of food that have been sitting in our pantries for years. People with bike trailers, push carts and pedicabs would find a lot of opportunity to put them to work.

mwrobe1
10-22-07, 03:23 PM
Yeah, I think I'd manage, being able to get to work, go to stores and buy stuff and bring it home.

I commute by bike often enough and have adequate gear to be able to cope with something like that.

As another poster stated, I'd make a second job out of hauling stuff for others via bike trailer. :)

The problem I would have is, um, being dependent on semi-trucks, that use petrol products, that haul said stuff to those stores...like food, and other grocery items. Depending on what season the said "outage" would occur...that might become uncomfortable...not being able to have some lead time to produce a home garden/stock up on certain things etc.

I'd think that a steady increase in gasoline prices, and the associated steady increase in inflation would be the prelude to such a severe reduction in gasoline availability. A nuke or two going off in a Middle Eastern oilfield or some other natural phenomenon effecting oil producing countries would be the only exception.

mwrobe1
10-22-07, 03:25 PM
I drive a garbage truck for a living. I could certainly see the governments saying that all doctors, hospital employees, fire, police, garbage trucks, government and utility vehicles etc. would get the gas they needed for "public safety". Where would that leave the fat lady and her "big boned" kid? OUT of luck.

But then again...its yet another good reason to get a job in healthcare. :D

halfro
10-22-07, 03:50 PM
This Mad Max scenario will not happen for a lot time. Nobody has any idea when the oil will dry up, including me. I do not own a car and don't plan on buying one anytime soon. I think if the oil dried up I'd have no problem with it, but when it does dry up, it will effect everybody. It'll be chaos. Our country, if nothing is done, will go back 200 years.
It will be an interesting time. Scary, but interesting...

Roody
10-22-07, 04:34 PM
As oil becomes scarcer and more expensive, alternatives will be developed. The transition vehicles will be hybrids, biofuels and plug-ins.

The real interesting question is, will we be stupid enough to fry the planet before the oil runs out?

iain.dalton
10-22-07, 06:38 PM
I don't think the oil will "dry up" in at least the next century or two, but it will become more resource-intensive to obtain, driving the price up exponentially (or is it logarithmically?). People say they're car-free, so they wouldn't worry, but we all depend on oil. Farm equipment runs on gas, as well as almost every industry that produces materials necessary to survival. Sure, there are the occasional "self-sufficient" homes (like the Bush ranch), but how many people have the money to invest in one of those?

P.S.: Mormons keep a one-year food and water supply in case a situation like this ever happens. I think it's a good idea, but I can't even invest in that with my finances.

maddyfish
10-22-07, 07:08 PM
P.S.: Mormons keep a one-year food and water supply in case a situation like this ever happens. I think it's a good idea, but I can't even invest in that with my finances.

Not just Mormons, and not just food, and water.

Weapons/ammo/reloading equipment, hard currency-silver, medicine, medical equipment, spare bikes and parts, spare shelter, and much more.

Oil, economic collapse, China, Islamic terrorism, exotic disease, and more. Lots to prepare for.

East Hill
10-22-07, 07:15 PM
^^^
I can tell you that in my line of work, I have not seen so much bulk silver (read, silver coins not being collected for numismatic value, but simply as a hard currency) being moved around the country since around twenty years ago...

East Hill

spinninwheels
10-22-07, 07:16 PM
This Mad Max scenario will not happen for a lot time. Nobody has any idea when the oil will dry up, including me. I do not own a car and don't plan on buying one anytime soon. I think if the oil dried up I'd have no problem with it, but when it does dry up, it will effect everybody. It'll be chaos. Our country, if nothing is done, will go back 200 years.
It will be an interesting time. Scary, but interesting...

As scary as this statements sounds, there is a lot of truth in it. Presently our food supply is so closely tied to fossil fuels, it's not even funny. And I don't just mean the transportation of it. Presently it takes around 35 calories of fossil fuel to produce 1 calorie of beef, and about 65 calories to produce 1 calorie of pork. But that is a whole other topic.

Accountability and environmental responsibility seem to elude big corporations, and I don't mean just big oil. It's a real shame that there isn't a bigger push towards more environmentally friendly energy, as well as more incentive put specifically into that area of R&D.

I agree that a car is a tool, as well as the internal combustion engine (I.C.E.), but sometimes tools become outdated, and possible cast aside. Unless of course some aspect of there design is improved to make them desirable or effecient once again.

A perfect example is the flat blade or the Phillips screwdriver. Useful yes, but far from the best design. In the automotive field, it eventually evovled into the Torq. I'm not suggesting the Torq is the pinnacle, but it is much more effecient than its predecessors.

Now I'm not saying the car has outlived it's usefullness, but the I.C.E. is getting very close. The thermal effeciency is still well below 50%. Is that acceptable considering we are within, arguably 10-20 years (either side) of peal oil? And the demand has never been stronger. I think its design could well exceed its present performance, but design improvments has been thwarted over the decades.

It's time we to start changing our habits and paradigms with respect to anything connected to fossil fuels, not because we have to (yet), but because it is the most practical and responsible thing to do. Staying on board to milk it for all it's worth, till every last cent is made, is reprehensible.

Newspaperguy
10-22-07, 07:20 PM
In the not to distant future the oil tap may either run dry
or get shut off in some fashion. Either way there is NO
fuel to buy and it's so bad that vehicle fuel tanks are
getting siphon dry by theives.

Were talking down & dirty no fuel "you walk or else" life.

What would/could you do to get by??
Changes usually come in a little more gradually. We didn't see everybody in unison trade in the horse and buggies for cars. We didn't see an instant conversion from oil lamps to electric lights. And we won't see an instant end to oil use either. Wells will not all run dry at once and the tap will not be shut off in an instant either.

It's much more likely to happen over a span of years with oil prices rising dramatically, followed by supply shortages where the local gas pumps will run dry from time to time.

The point where fuel is simply no longer available is still ahead of us. And it will come in with a lot of warning. Unfortunately, not everyone will choose to listen to the warnings.

kemmer
10-22-07, 07:28 PM
If it were to happen overnight you probably wouldn't have a job to go to or a school to drop the kids off at anyway. The question isn't how will you get around, but what will you eat/drink, how will you heat your house and how will you keep your family safe. It's safe to say we'd all be pretty screwed for quite some time.

East Hill
10-22-07, 08:16 PM
If it were to happen overnight you probably wouldn't have a job to go to or a school to drop the kids off at anyway. The question isn't how will you get around, but what will you eat/drink, how will you heat your house and how will you keep your family safe. It's safe to say we'd all be pretty screwed for quite some time.

In other words, we will return to being 'pioneers'. You won't need to worry about having a job--your job will be surviving. Men and women will get out and plow fields with horses, mules, oxen. We will grow our own produce. We'll use horses for transportation, or walk. Meat will return to being a once a week special treat, and will probably consist of an old hen too old to lay eggs, or a surplus cockerel or old rooster. We'll get sick more often, and die from common diseases because we won't have access to health care. Polluted water will make us sick, and we'll die from it too. The mortality rate will shoot up again for women of childbearing age. We'll use wood or coal to heat out homes, unless nuclear energy becomes acceptable. Electricity will be generated by nuclear energy, or windmills, or water energy (dams, waves). We'll return to shipping goods by ships with sails, and we'll have to get used to the fact that what we desire is not necessarily what we need in order to live.

So, how would we get by? Well, conserving what resources we have--I don't mean in the 'grand' sense, just personally. Do I really need that new bike with carbon fibre? No...I can make do with the 35 year old steel bike. Yes, I could use new tyres, or tubes, but I could fashion wooden 'tyres' too. Or, stuff the tyre full of leaves or material. It wouldn't be fun cycling, but it would get me there. We wouldn't necessarily be out of rubber, mind you--that's a plant derived article. There are a number of plants which produce naturally occuring rubber, a number of which can be grown in temperate climes. And various oils can still be extracted from plants and animals.

East Hill

lyeinyoureye
10-22-07, 08:57 PM
The real interesting question is, will we be stupid enough to fry the planet before the oil runs out?It's sizzling already, so naw, I don't think so. Not that we're gonna wipe ourselves out, yet. Just that we're going to make stuff really difficult for ourselves in the next couple centuries.

Dahon.Steve
10-22-07, 09:07 PM
This Mad Max scenario will not happen for a lot time. Nobody has any idea when the oil will dry up, including me. I do not own a car and don't plan on buying one anytime soon. I think if the oil dried up I'd have no problem with it, but when it does dry up, it will effect everybody. It'll be chaos. Our country, if nothing is done, will go back 200 years.
It will be an interesting time. Scary, but interesting...

If the majority of Americans cannot use the motorcar due to oil shortages, I don't believe we will go back 200 years at all. If you go the library, life was not horrible 100 years ago and we were in the middle of the industrial revolution. I didn't see any human suffering or people crying for motorized vehicles. My town wasn't a transit hub either and there were no cries for additional trolleys.

I wish I'd been an adult in 1907. Being carfree 100 years ago would have been a dream.

bmike
10-22-07, 09:17 PM
In other words, we will return to being 'pioneers'. You won't need to worry about having a job--your job will be surviving.

i'd argue that we wouldn't be returning... ;)

East Hill
10-22-07, 09:25 PM
i'd argue that we wouldn't be returning... ;)

Figuratively speaking, that is ;) .

It would not be a case of 'going where no man (or woman) has gone before', although I've personally never had to plow a field with anything other than the handtiller, so it would definitely be a new experience for me.

And I gotta tell ya, I don't think I'd be all that excited about it :( .

East Hill

maddyfish
10-22-07, 09:25 PM
^^^
I can tell you that in my line of work, I have not seen so much bulk silver (read, silver coins not being collected for numismatic value, but simply as a hard currency) being moved around the country since around twenty years ago...

East Hill

good, makes mine worth more in case TSHTF.

East Hill
10-22-07, 09:27 PM
good, makes mine worth more in case TSHTF.

Yes, there are a lot of people ensuring that they are prepared...

East Hill

energyandair
10-22-07, 10:37 PM
Not sure when it will happen but when the fuel runs out so does asphault and making concrete takes a lot of energy so roads are likely to deteriorate a lot.

I see a lot of skinny bike trails and suspended bikes with wide tires to handle worse surfaces.

We will probably also see the rebirth of corner stores, local shopping centers you can walk or ride to, and possibly large stores located at transport hubs.

David

CrimsonEclipse
10-22-07, 11:10 PM
All I know, that when fuel becomes too expensive for some, there will be more
cyclists clogging my favorite route to work. Call me elitists, but I like my being the only
cyclists and commuter at my company. Also, the road is filled with crappy drivers, I'm
not sure that I want it filled with crappy riders too.

CE

JeffS
10-22-07, 11:53 PM
In such a scenario, my personal transportation would be the least of my worries.

My current job, loosely tied to the housing industry, would be be at risk. My wife's business, reliant on people's discretionary spending would be in jeopardy, and the job availability for either of us would be questionable.

Whether we had anywhere to go would be a bigger issue than how we got there.

jondoh
10-23-07, 12:43 AM
It is sometimes said that the truth is somewhere in the middle. It seems to me that almost everyone expects a sudden disappearance of oil. We’re not going to see a sudden and complete disappearance. It will become scarce – and not 30 years from now. I’m thinking in the next few years. It’s already begun to happen. Gas prices are rising in a time when they usually go down. There’s already talk of shortages of heating oil. It will be interesting to see if we see prolong, widespread outages of gasoline supplies next summer. It wasn’t very widely publicized but there were gasoline shortages just this past summer. They didn’t last long and it happened only in a few towns. What should be bothersome is the fact that shortages occurred for no apparent good reason (except supplies had run out). Opec was not boycotting the US. I know these are not exactly peaceful times but when was the last time things were “peaceful”? It’s happening slowly. Almost imperceptibly. We are getting squeezed to death. The credit crisis is just a sign of this. If you believe that we’re past peak oil, and I do, you know things are not going to get better before they get worse. The best thing you can do for yourself right now is consider sustainability. Got a house you can barely afford? Maybe it’s time to sell and downsize. Live in the Xburbs? Time to consider a place closer to the city (or a sustainable living arrangement). Maybe move close to a train station or closer to work. Got two cars? Maybe you really don’t need two. Call it car free or car light or whatever you want. Time to think about actually doing it rather than consider what to call it.

bragi
10-23-07, 01:32 AM
I think you can get a good idea of what would happen in a largely oil-free world by looking at the example of Cuba in the 1990's. They ran out of oil when the USSR collapsed, and the US embargo made it hard (if not impossible) for them to get fuel. Everyone predicted that Castro's government would collapse, but it didn't. They had a rough time at first, but they survived okay, due in large part to a friendly climate and a sudden enthusiasm for farming on every empty lot in the country. (Having an authoritarian government might have been an advantage in such circumstances, too.) The bottom line is that if people are forced to adjust, they will. It not like you'll have a choice, unless you're very rich, or you can provide a service that will allow you access to the by-now precious fuel.

As an aside, a non-US friend of mine recently visited Cuba. He remarked that the people were all remarkably healthy-looking and fit, possibly a result of eating a diet consisting largely of fruits, veggies and grains, with just a small amount of meat every week, and having to walk and/or bike to get anywhere.

bragi
10-23-07, 01:37 AM
The real interesting question is, will we be stupid enough to fry the planet before the oil runs out?


Yes.

Cyclaholic
10-23-07, 04:38 AM
I think those of us that still hold on to the belief that we can replace oil with 'plug in' solutions are either deluding themselves or are simply unaware of how fundamental oil is to to modern society. Just ponder this - everything, and I mean everything depends on the energy cost/density/portability/availability ratio that only oil provides. There is nothing that can replace it nor is there any technology at any stage of development that promises the ability to replace it. The hardest aspect of the 'doomsday' scenario to accept is its inevitability.

Once the oil wars are fought and the last of the oil supply dries up modern society as we know it will simply collapse. With no effective government, no agriculture, no functional infrastructure or intitutions such as law enforcement it will simply be chaos, followed by famine and disease. Once the population stabilises at a sustainable level I think we'll live mostly as the Amish do, except we'll be very well armed (at first, at least) to defend our agricultural communities against nomadic criminal gangs. They will inevitably die out and we will settle into a pre-industrial agricultural civilisation.

Considering what's to come I don't blame anyone for choosing to ignore it and pretend everything will be OK.

maddyfish
10-23-07, 06:38 AM
^^^^^^ Sample of your screenplay?

Rollfast
10-23-07, 07:15 AM
STEAM ENGINE

Just won't do much for subwoofers, working on that thought.

East Hill
10-23-07, 07:39 AM
^^^^^^ Sample of your screenplay?

'Darfur'.

East Hill

Cyclaholic
10-23-07, 10:12 AM
^^^^^^ Sample of your screenplay?

I guess you've never heard of Easter Island...

...and please share with me just what you think will yield the energy density, portability, abundancy, and low cost per kilojoule of oil? we do ned a replacement, and soon.

halfro
10-23-07, 11:52 AM
I completely agree! I've was thinking of this thread last night and everything you said, I believe, is true. I'm car free, but my stove, microwave, computer, lights, water heater, and everything else runs on electricity. I'm not sure on the percentage, but is gas powering most of the united states? I think nuclear energy is a start (kinda like a hybrid car), but Solar and wind is the answer.

I was a Peace Corps Volunteer almost two years ago and I saw many people living with no electricity. Most third world countries will not be effected when gas runs out. Life will change on different levels for different places.

scottieie
10-23-07, 12:33 PM
My current job, loosely tied to the housing industry, would be be at risk. My wife's business, reliant on people's discretionary spending would be in jeopardy, and the job availability for either of us would be questionable.


The cool thing is that after this economic collapse from resource shortage, we won't need to build huge houses, spend money on knick knacks and crap, so we can all work less and have more free time to bike ride. Isn't this what it is all about! We can all work 30 hours a week, gardening, building, foresting, recycling, etc...then spend time riding the single track trails that develop where the roads used to be.

Seriously, the way I see it is you will have a lot less people doing frivolous work like TPS reports, suing people, selling gizmo's at the mall, insurance, advertising, paper pushing, administration type stuff, banking, etc. That will free up like 3/4 of our work force to do things the old fashioned way. Since we won't have the gas to ship over happy meal toys and Malwart junk, we can get back to doing what is essential. Might be a blessing in disguise, taking care of the obesity problem, lead paint in toys problem, crappy urban planning problems (sprawl, etc.), pollution......
-S

CrimsonEclipse
10-23-07, 12:36 PM
Fuel oil is about 20-30% of electricity production. Coal is 40-50% and growing fast.

Electricity is not the problem, transportation is.

Being in aviation, my industry will feel the pain. on the bright side, in cargo, I'll be the last to go.

CE

Roody
10-23-07, 12:40 PM
I don't think we'll return to the pre-industrial age.

I think we'll enter into a post-industrial age. We would be foolish indeed to abandon the best of our technology. For example, we'll always want to keep medicine, health care, solar power, and enhanced human power (bicycles and beyond). Organic and integrative farming technology can sustainably feed as many people as our current petroagricultural methods. Switching to sustainable energy and farming will provide a big boost to the world economy and a permaculture philosophy will make these changes long lasting.

The biggest hindrances are the same as they've always been, namely human greed and fear. These must give way to social justice and realistic optimism, or our species and the biosystem are doomed.

I think we can do it, and we'd better start now.

makeinu
10-23-07, 01:10 PM
I don't think the oil is going to run out.

Look at the biofuels that many companies are developing. They are expensive and they pollute worse than the petrol in the ground, but they can be manufactured. Mankind will run this planet into the ground before giving up the convenience of oil.

Nevertheless, I don't want to be one of the people responsible.

Nightshade
10-23-07, 02:11 PM
Can anyone here remember just how quickly social order collapsed
during.......Katrina?

Platy
10-23-07, 02:11 PM
With zero motor fuels available, electric bikes will be king.

Nightshade
10-23-07, 02:17 PM
With zero motor fuels available, electric bikes will be king.

Let us not forget the million & one uses for oil that are not fuels for vehicles

Newspaperguy
10-23-07, 07:22 PM
Once the oil wars are fought and the last of the oil supply dries up modern society as we know it will simply collapse. With no effective government, no agriculture, no functional infrastructure or intitutions such as law enforcement it will simply be chaos, followed by famine and disease. Once the population stabilises at a sustainable level I think we'll live mostly as the Amish do, except we'll be very well armed (at first, at least) to defend our agricultural communities against nomadic criminal gangs. They will inevitably die out and we will settle into a pre-industrial agricultural civilisation.
This would be the case if oil were to suddenly run dry. But that won't happen. Resources don't run out in an instant. We're dealing with depletion here, not an instant shut-down. Depletion means prices will continue to rise as it becomes more and more difficult to extract crude oil. Eventually, it will not be feasible to produce oil.

If the oil were turned off tomorrow, then I'd expect to see something akin to the scenario Cyclaholic describes. But if oil depletes over a period of years, we will watch something entirely different unfolding. Under a depletion scenario, it's much more likely we'd see alternate forms of transportation — cycling, electric vehicles, horse-drawn buggies, alternate fuel motors, etc. — gaining acceptance over a period of time and becoming mainstream. Automobile use would eventually fall out of favour as it would be much simpler and cheaper to use other forms of transportation.

The only question with my description is how fast oil will be depleted. If we have a few decades, no problem. But if it happens in just a few years, we will have trouble making the transition in time.

Smallwheels
10-23-07, 10:44 PM
Oil won't run out. Only cheap oil will run out. There is plenty of oil shale in the Rocky Mountains and Canada has as much oil as Saudi Arabia tied up in oil sand. Both of those forms of oil production became profitable when oil prices went above $40 per barrel. Those forms of oil will eventually be a large part of the worlds oil supply, but not until the cheap liquid oil begins to run dry in fifty years.

It is more likely that before oil runs out, solar and wind energy production will be in greater use. Maybe even the low yield nuclear power production will be perfected. There actually is a process of extracting nuclear energy without producing radioactive waste that has a 200,000 year half life. It has about one third of the yield of the current nuclear power plants but the radioactive waste products only have a half life of seven and a half years!

Energy Combustor power plants are now coming online. They take waste materials and garbage and burn them for fuel. It is the ultimate recycling solution. The plant works at extremely high temperatures and separates different materials out of the waste stream like metals and recycles them. The extreme heat breaks down the chemical bonds of the most toxic materials and renders them inert. The entire smoke output for each stack is about the same as a tractor trailer rig.

The U.S. government has done a lot to prevent these from coming online because they compete with other power plants. Fortunately the producers of these types of power plants have been able to jump through all the hoops and over barriers the EPA has used to prevent them from coming into existence. Corruption is everywhere in the U.S. government.

Instead of garbage trucks bringing their waste to land fills they will bring it to these combustor power plants. I'm eager to hear how the one in Nevada will do once it is finished.

shumacher
10-23-07, 10:59 PM
I'm work in IT, so I doubt that will change. My employer is a bank. I can't imagine banks giving up computers. I'm trying to think of a way that this would hurt me. I'm sure it would, but I'm really not sure how. I hate having to pay shipping on mail order items, and I know that would change. I love overnight shipping. That would disappear. I'd probably finally get a bike shop in town. I think my food expenses would go up, and I might not be able to enjoy setting my thermostat wherever I want during the hot Louisiana summers. Because this is Louisiana, I'd enjoy more seafood, less beef. More strawberries, fewer apples. I don't really need my car now, so I'd have to adjust, but not much. Add a trailer, a decent headlight, and some rain gear, and I'm golden.

OTOH, an old Mercedes diesel wagon and a backyard biodiesel setup, and I might have transportation for that occasional trip to the McDonald's drive thru.

StephenH
10-23-07, 11:03 PM
I'd be out of work, for one thing. After a bit, we'd all be out of bicycle tires. Not to worry, we'd be out of food before then.

CrimsonEclipse
10-24-07, 12:11 AM
Oil won't run out. Only cheap oil will run out. There is plenty of oil shale in the Rocky Mountains and Canada has as much oil as Saudi Arabia tied up in oil sand. Both of those forms of oil production became profitable when oil prices went above $40 per barrel. Those forms of oil will eventually be a large part of the worlds oil supply, but not until the cheap liquid oil begins to run dry in fifty years.

Cheap oil has already run out.


It is more likely that before oil runs out, solar and wind energy production will be in greater use. Maybe even the low yield nuclear power production will be perfected. There actually is a process of extracting nuclear energy without producing radioactive waste that has a 200,000 year half life. It has about one third of the yield of the current nuclear power plants but the radioactive waste products only have a half life of seven and a half years!

What is this grand power called? Fusion power. What do we need to make it work? Helium-3
Where can we get it? The moon, comets.


Energy Combustor power plants are now coming online. They take waste materials and garbage and burn them for fuel. It is the ultimate recycling solution. The plant works at extremely high temperatures and separates different materials out of the waste stream like metals and recycles them. The extreme heat breaks down the chemical bonds of the most toxic materials and renders them inert. The entire smoke output for each stack is about the same as a tractor trailer rig.

What percentage of the total power will this replace?
Watch for the line separating optimism and realism.

We hit the oil dependency brakes too late. Let's see how hard we hit.

CE

Newspaperguy
10-24-07, 12:41 AM
Back to the original question, in the U.S. the flow of fuel was turned down twice in the 20th century, during World War II and during the 1970s. Gasoline rationing was imposed in both instances. (In Canada, rationing was imposed during World War II but not in the 1970s.)

If I recall correctly, most Americans could purchase three U.S. gallons of fuel a week under the most stringent World War II rationing. That's about 11.3 litres. Additional fuel was available for those who needed to use vehicles for business or to provide essential services (doctors, for instance) but it was still rationed.

Today, anyone using 11.3 litres a week or 45 litres a month would be considered extremely car-light. However, in the early 1940s, people found all sorts of ways to cope with the restrictions.

dauphin
10-24-07, 12:49 AM
ARe you trying to say that we should not use oil so a fat lady who is 100 pounds overweight cannot haul her one fat kid in a 2,000 pound vehicle when we could save it for farming or manufacturing!!!!

How crazy. What is that fat lady supposed to do??? EXERCISE!?!?!?!?! Hey, do you know how hard it is to be a big fat ass!!??!!??

It aint easy ok....and her kid is big boned and besides you should except them both for being fat.

http://www.pacfit.com/roflmao.gif

Smallwheels
10-24-07, 01:59 AM
"What is this grand power called? Fusion power. What do we need to make it work? Helium-3
Where can we get it? The moon, comets."

Fusion power does not give off any radiation or pollution. You are thinking of something else.

Low power nuclear reactions have been successful in Canadian University research projects. The Canadian and US governments pulled the plug on the research once the theories were proven to work. Such research takes considerable money.

To be brief, low level nuclear fuel is used instead of enriched uranium. It produces only one third of the power. The reaction chamber is not under high pressure and therefore can't explode. The radiation level is so low that it would be impossible for a melt-down to occur. The spent fuel and waste products are radioactive for only seven and a half years.

Since I don't believe the oil spigot will be turned off any time soon, I don't think there will be a problem getting by for a long time.

As fuel gets more expensive more people will drive less. Car pooling and mass transit will expand in reaction to it. We can only hope that the current local governments around the country will recognize this situation and start planning to expand their local public transit systems.

Sianelle
10-24-07, 05:36 AM
I would imagine that I would carry on much as I do now. Most probably I would work harder at maintaining my vegetable garden, improve my composting methods and start to learn how save seeds from my own plants. I live in a rural dairy farming district so in some ways I'm most probably better off than a city dweller, but I think it would be smart to have a couple of chickens to make sure of having eggs. I don't like guns, but I guess I could get myself back into practice with my vintage recurve bow even though hunting for feral rabbits would be pretty low on my list of things to do.
I already have my very useful utility tricycle as well as my bicycles. Going out of the district doesn't interest me much, so I don't have a use for a car anyway. More than likely I'd setup a wind generator like the one I built when I was a hippie alternative lifestyler all those years ago. Though electricity is not such an issue here in NZ since most of it comes from renewable sources, but it would still be a good standby.
Wooden bike tyres are quite possible by the way, - they were used in wartime when there were shortages.
http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/4537/woodentyrescn0.jpg
In my alternative lifestyle days it was my great privilege to live on an island. It was a pretty small close community, - only the truly keen to be there lived there because the ferry service was based around converted ex WW2 naval patrol craft and the trip to the mainland was fairly intrepid. My wee cottage on 10 acres of land had no connected power and we cooked on a woodstove. I spent one day a week fully occupied with cutting and preparing firewood. Lord above I was fit in those days! I didn't have a car either, just a sidecar outfit which my kids loved. Oh and I rode a bicycle too. I had friends who rode horses as serious transport and there was a family who had a delightful pony cart that they used as their 'car'. It was impossible to buy petrol on the weekends because the one petrol station on the island was closed because the owner considered it only fair that he should have the weekend off too. Sometimes if the weather was bad and the cargo ferry was having trouble getting through the petrol ran out and there would be none. I don't remember anyone being that bothered about it except for the odd tourist/visitor from the mainland who would of course complain loudly to anyone within earshot.
Of course all this had to end (sigh). The ferry company changed hands, new flash ferries turned an intrepid sea journey into a bus ride and the place became a fashionable place to be. It wasn't long before the first million dollar house was built and of course it all went downhill from there :(