Going to do some upgrading

[zonatandem]

Where'sWaldo!
First of all congratulations on your lifestyle change/surgery! Yipes! Losing 148 lbs. is more than what I've ever weighed! And good of you to get into tandeming TWOgether with daughter
If you are riding tandem once a week would not suggest sinking a fortune into it unless you're rolling in $$.
Lighter rotating weight (wheels) are the best place to loose many ounces and feel the results. Next would be c/f fork with either calipher or V-brake. The rest is just lots buck$ for minimal weight savings and some bling factor.
In our 32+ years of tandeming have seen one tandem on the road with tubulars and that was back in 1977in Kenosha, WI at Midwest Tandem Rally #2. Two guys were going to be faster than anybody, so they said. Two flats later, we never saw them again. And yes, did get to ride the Kenosha outdoor velodrome on our tandem that year.
Thompson seatposts are great, have one as pilot on our Zona tandem, stoker uses c/f.
Check out with Craig Calfee to see how he feels about Topolino wheels on his tandems. Have Topos on my single and have used front Topo on tandem (28 spokes) without issues; however, we are a sub-250 lbs tandem duo. If we were ordering a new 2-seater, defintely would get the Topolino tandem wheelset; however we consider our present tandem barely broken in, with only 16,000 miles on the odo.
At twice the age of the daughter, doing half the reps is good; tell her to show some respect for her elders!
Tandem Geek gave the website for the c/f stoker stems; Bob Davis the builder/innovator is quitting the tandem biz as of the end of 2007 due to health reasons. So these will be hard to come by.
Lots of the lighter goodies for tandems are nice, but pricey, and not a necessity.
But as we are fond of saying, 'what are we going to do, wait 'til we get older?'
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[Panito123]

Had some dificulty but here it is

[TandemGeek]

Tubulars...

For everyday use, the only guy I know using tubulars on a tandem is a gentleman down in Florida who freely admits he has no hills to contend with. He has them on a very lightweight tandem that he runs with very lightweight single bike aerowheels. Confidential sources suggest that he has had the wheels replaced under warranty a few times, although their use on the tandem hasn't been disclosed. I believe the frame -- which is also near its limits: they are a very tall team -- may have also been repaired and/or beefed-up during its life. Racing equipment has its limitations when pressed into everyday use.

There have been a few others and most of the old-guard have put away their rim cement and moved on to clinchers as well. The hold-outs seem to be folks who have dedicated time-trial bikes that are spaced to allow the use of their single-bike aero wheels with tubulars.

I moved away from tubies before I left California in '91. I think I still have my last set of Mavic GL330 rims sitting around somewhere.

Since you asked about a tire roll-off I'll indulge you with a series of stills that were included in a humorous Bicycle Mag article from '95 that chronicled that infamous event in tandeming history, circa 1992. Rob Templin and Scott Martin had just come off a descent during the Davis Double Century and the front tire flatted, then rolled off the rim... all caught on film.

http://www.secondsummertours.com/Articles/SCOTT%20MARTIN%20PIECE-%20BICYCLING%20MAGAZINE%20TANDEM%20CRASH.pdf

[joe@vwvortex]

Tubulars on a tandem - can I stop laughing now? Heck - you can also save alot of weight converting it to a fixed gear as well...........

[swc7916]

I like having all the brake I can have when doing long fast downhills at over 60mph so I have a rear disc (and want a front regardless of the added weight).

If you like having all the brake you can have, why do you have a disc brake? From what I understand - short of installing a disc brake from a motorcycle - disc brakes in their current state of technology are NOT stronger than rim brakes. The builder of my tandem will install disc brakes if the buyer insists, but also claims that they have ended up replacing all such brakes at owner's request, as well as disc brakes from competitor's bikes.

I have cantilevers and a drum, and have not had an occassion to use the drum yet.

[TandemGeek]

From what I understand - short of installing a disc brake from a motorcycle - disc brakes in their current state of technology are NOT stronger than rim brakes.

From whom or what sources did you obtain this body of knowledge to form your understanding of the current state of disc brake technology?

I have cantilevers and a drum, and have not had an occassion to use the drum yet.

How many tandems have you had before you obtained your Rodriguez and how many of them (or any other bicycles that you've owned) have had disc brakes?

[swc7916]

Is this an attack on my persona experience/knowledge , or are you providing objective, measurable reasons why you think that disc brakes are superior?

BTW: This is my third tandem.

[TandemGeek]

Tubulars on a tandem - can I stop laughing now?

Interestingly enough, I had the same ROTFLMAO reaction when folks started putting low-spoke count wheelsets on their tandems for everyday use. I mean, really, why would anyone want to give up the added security of conventionally spoked wheelsets on their everyday training or recreational tandem just to shed a few grams of weight and wheel drag when it mattered the least.

Of course, when reports that many of the early versions of these go-fast wheels experienced failures it was hardly a surprise. But, then again, there have also been a lot of folks who have had nothing but success with their wheels of choice and, well, the quality and reliability do seem to be improving (at least on some models).

So, today I guess I'd put tubular tires and low-spoke count wheels in the same category: if the person who has decided they'd like to use them likes them, doesn't have problems with them, and isn't bothered the other aspects of ownership (cost, ease of repair, etc.) then good for them. Frankly, with the exception of highly demanding descents where rim heating could create some problems, I'd guess that rolling a tubular tire off a tandem (assuming they were glued-on properly) is no more or even less risk than having a clincher flat and roll-off the rim... with similar consequences. So increased risk may or may not be a factor even worthy of consideration depending on how and where a tandem will be used, e.g., the flatlands of Florida. Fortunately for me, I've found clinchers that have that tubular-like "feel" to them so I'm a happy camper. Heck, I'm even considering a spare set of low-spoke count wheels for our new tandem... mostly because they look really slick. Mind you, we'll also have a set of conventional wheels for our everyday riding and tours because, after all, what's the point of riding on racing wheels when your not racing?

[TandemGeek]

Is this an attack on my persona experience/knowledge , or are you providing objective, measurable reasons why you think that disc brakes are superior?

Neither: I simply asked from where you've gained your understanding of the pros and cons of disc brakes and was curious if you'd had a tandem or any other type of bicycle with discs at some point.

My comments and experiences with disc brakes are covered ad nauseum in the archives here and at the Hobbes list. Your posting history did not yield much, hence my interest in understanding why you hold the views you do on discs.

[WheresWaldo]

Rudy, thank you for the comments. The weight loss was just the start of returning my life back to some level of normalcy. My doctor even told me that I was given a second chance as just the year before she had told my wife and I that I had lost up to 15 years of life expectancy.

Today's tubulars are not your father's tubulars. With the advances in rubber compounds, puncture resistant layers and the widespread use of tire sealant (Tufo and Stan's some of the best available) tubulars are no more work than a good set of clinchers. There is no need to worry about a flattened tire coming off the rim, or about pinch flats. I have ridden over 3500 miles this year and have only had one flat on tubulars and it sealed itself up while riding. I had since gone on to put an additional 1000 miles on that rear tire before I had to replace it because of wear!

TG, Rob Templin and Scott Martin were not riding tubulars as is plainly evident by the fourth picture in the sequence where you can see the tire bead has come off the rim bead seat. I have never seen a front flat tubular tire roll off the rim in that manner, if it is properly glued. You already know this but I will remind others that, in general, properly affixed tubulars that go flat can be ridden long enough to regain control of the bike without rolling off the rim, the same cannot be said for clinchers.

joe, tell me something odd about your tandem setup so I can have a good belly laugh too! :p Maybe a fixed gear tandem is not as funny as it appears, don't mock what you haven't experienced. :) The following image is a bike from the collection of the revered Sheldon Brown.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/piccio.jpeg

[TandemGeek]

TG, Rob Templin and Scott Martin were not riding tubulars as is plainly evident by the fourth picture in the sequence where you can see the tire bead has come off the rim bead seat.

This is true... which is why I didn't preface it as a 'tubular' roll-off and noted the classic clincher roll-off scenario: flat tire (or in few cases a blow-off), followed or accompanied by a tire roll-off, followed by the crash. In retrospect, I probably should have clarified that it was a clincher.

Regardless, as a fan of tubulars I thought you'd appreciate the photo sequence for the very reasons that you just pointed out: tubulars tend to stay attached to a rim when they go flat... which is a good thing. See my comments in a previous reply to the comments on tubulars and low-spoke count wheels.

[WheresWaldo]

Ok, please forgive me it usually takes a few posts and responses to ferret out how different personalities respond on BF. Yes I did appreciate the sequence and knew straight away this was something I probably did not have to worry about.

I am also glad to see that even you can drink the Kool-Aid and have submitted to low spoke count wheels. I tend to be a little retro at times, sometimes with the smallest things, as an example, on my single bike, I have tubulars (retro), they are 100% carbon (nonretro), they are conventionally spoked (retro). A second example from the same bike, I have bars as wide as my shoulder measurement (retro), they are carbon Zipps (nonretro), they are a traditional bend (retro).

I think I am going to pursue the tubular angle, the more discussion we have about it, the more I convince myself that it is a worthwhile experiment. If it doesn't work I can always re-lace the rims on some road hubs and have a new set of training wheels, and then use some Deep-V Clinchers on the tandem.

I am already eying some new brakes to replace the discs, the disc weight is about 500+ grams per wheel, I could go with some nice Avid Single Digit 7 Liner pulls at about 370g total weight saving over 600g just in brakes, with probably superior stopping power. Without any other changes that is 1.3 pounds right there, well on my way to 5 pounds off the bike, and only about $45-55 shipped on eBay.

[WheresWaldo]

I know someone asked this earlier in the thread, our CDale weighs almost exactly 38 pounds, on an Alpine bike scale. That is without saddle bags or bottles, everything else ready to ride.

[joe@vwvortex]

Interestingly enough, I had the same ROTFLMAO reaction when folks started putting low-spoke count wheelsets on their tandems for everyday use. I mean, really, why would anyone want to give up the added security of conventionally spoked wheelsets on their everyday training or recreational tandem just to shed a few grams of weight and wheel drag when it mattered the least.

Of course, when reports that many of the early versions of these go-fast wheels experienced failures it was hardly a surprise. But, then again, there have also been a lot of folks who have had nothing but success with their wheels of choice and, well, the quality and reliability do seem to be improving (at least on some models).

So, today I guess I'd put tubular tires and low-spoke count wheels in the same category: if the person who has decided they'd like to use them likes them, doesn't have problems with them, and isn't bothered the other aspects of ownership (cost, ease of repair, etc.) then good for them. Frankly, with the exception of highly demanding descents where rim heating could create some problems, I'd guess that rolling a tubular tire off a tandem (assuming they were glued-on properly) is no more or even less risk than having a clincher flat and roll-off the rim... with similar consequences. So increased risk may or may not be a factor even worthy of consideration depending on how and where a tandem will be used, e.g., the flatlands of Florida. Fortunately for me, I've found clinchers that have that tubular-like "feel" to them so I'm a happy camper. Heck, I'm even considering a spare set of low-spoke count wheels for our new tandem... mostly because they look really slick. Mind you, we'll also have a set of conventional wheels for our everyday riding and tours because, after all, what's the point of riding on racing wheels when your not racing?


I was VERY skeptical of running the Rolf tandem wheels on our tandem. I was assured by CoMo that they'd be fine for our team weight and not pose a problem. While the wheels have proven to be of marginal quality in terms of bearings and hub adjustment, they have stayed true and given us almost 3 years of good use.

As for tubulars - what is the advantage? There really isn't one except weight. Yes people can argue the whole "feel" issue - they have been for the 36+ years i've been riding - but in reality with the weight of a tandem, the rolling resistance isn't your biggest enemy. I've done descents recently where I was uncomfortable due to my front rim heating up - yes these were on 8-10% grades and for long periods of time at higher speeds where I chose to pull off and let them cool down. No way would I risk having a tubular unseat on me in those situations just to save 1 oz of weight.

[joe@vwvortex]

Today's tubulars are not your father's tubulars. With the advances in rubber compounds, puncture resistant layers and the widespread use of tire sealant (Tufo and Stan's some of the best available) tubulars are no more work than a good set of clinchers. There is no need to worry about a flattened tire coming off the rim, or about pinch flats. I have ridden over 3500 miles this year and have only had one flat on tubulars and it sealed itself up while riding. I had since gone on to put an additional 1000 miles on that rear tire before I had to replace it because of wear!

IMO putting tire sealant in a tubular defeats the purpose of using one in the first place - the weight advantage. I don't care how good you are at changing a tubular - it's much more difficult and time consuming than changing a tube. The other issue - especially for a tandem is rim heat. Of course - if you don't go fast enough to use your brakes to the point where your rims get so hot it's hard to touch them - then well - maybe they are for you.

joe, tell me something odd about your tandem setup so I can have a good belly laugh too! :p Maybe a fixed gear tandem is not as funny as it appears, don't mock what you haven't experienced. :) The following image is a bike from the collection of the revered Sheldon Brown.



I'd be happy to share my Tandem setup. It's a perfect balance of fit, function and utility matched to the terrain my wife and I ride it on. Its not the lightest out there nor does it have the lightest/trickest components on it. It's a 32 lb steel 2004 CoMo Speedster. I can set it up for loaded touring by swapping the rear disc for a drum and V-brakes and swapping the Woundup CF Fork for the steel one I have with fender and pannier mounts.

Too bad that is a single speed - NOT a fixed gear. Of course since fixed gears with double toe clip straps and quill stems are THE trend in cycling right now - i'm sure they are out there. Still doesn't make sense - but of course you'll look very cool as you're buddies pass you going downhill as you wonder how the hell your gonna stop it with your legs........

[zonatandem]

Rode my last tubulars in 1978 after we moved to Arizona. Did two consecutive climbs up Sabino Canyon (local hill workout) on my single and got two flats, both cactus thorns.
Switched over to clinchers and been using them every since on singles/tandems.
Am impressed with the foldable kevlar beaded clinchers, use them on both bikes.
Training trubulars were great, even for my daily rides at that time. Riding back in the Midwest did not have as many flat issues as we do here in the desert Southwest. That's the trade-off for 13 months a year of sunshine!
Low spoke count wheels are fine for most riders. We have never utilized more than 36 spokes (front/rear) on tandems since 1975. Heck, back then 48 spoke wheels were common and folks thought you were sorta daring if you got a low count 40 spoke wheel! Even saw one tandem back then with (Gulp!) 71 motorcycle spokes on the rear wheel . . .
We currenty utilize 32 spoke front/36 rear and after 16,000+ miles, no issues except for a minor trueing.
And yes, some things have improved quite a bit since the old days!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[joe@vwvortex]

If you like having all the brake you can have, why do you have a disc brake? From what I understand - short of installing a disc brake from a motorcycle - disc brakes in their current state of technology are NOT stronger than rim brakes. The builder of my tandem will install disc brakes if the buyer insists, but also claims that they have ended up replacing all such brakes at owner's request, as well as disc brakes from competitor's bikes.

I have cantilevers and a drum, and have not had an occassion to use the drum yet.

Have you actually ridden each of the setups - cantilever, caliper, v-brake and disc and compared them? I did by demoing bikes prior to picking which brake I wanted to spec my tandem with. The disc brake was the only brake of all those that I demo'd that could bring the tandem to a stop by itself by using just the rear brake. All the tandems were setup and the brakes functioned correctly.

I want a front disc so I don't have to worry about the rim heating up too much and blowing the front tire. I've encountered downhills where i've had to pull off to let the rim cool down so I didn't run the risk of a blowout. Let's also not forget the inherent advantages to discs in wet weather as well.

[TandemGeek]

As for tubulars - what is the advantage? There really isn't one except weight.

It's all about preference....

I prefer narrow clinchers at high pressure on my singles and our tandems. Many others prefer wider tires with lower pressure. Apparently there are still some folks out there who prefer tubulars. What ever works "best" for someone at any particular time simply is... until such time that they decide something else may be better.

In the interim, to each their own and good luck changing someone's mind with a keyboard and a list of reasons why their preferences are ill advised: in most cases it merely solidifies their resolve... as it should.

After all, if we all didn't our own preferences and experiences to share there'd be nothing to talk about, now would there?

[rmac]

I know someone asked this earlier in the thread, our CDale weighs almost exactly 38 pounds, on an Alpine bike scale. That is without saddle bags or bottles, everything else ready to ride.

I guess size matters. Our M/S Cannondale, configured similar to above, weighs 36.6 lbs with the original fork, rear rack, and Thudbuster seatpost. We do have Campy 10sp drivetrain (no problems with additional wear) and White Industry hubs with Velocity rims.

[RickinFl]

Well spoken TandemGeek.

It's been an interesting thread- no epiphanies, many strongly held opinions, a few sphincters in danger of rupture but no blowouts yet, no one saying thanks for all the great advice, now I know what to do.

Quo Vadis?

Rick

[TandemGeek]

Too bad that is a single speed - NOT a fixed gear.

Actually, it really IS a fixed gear tandem...
http://sheldonbrown.org/picchio/index.html

[WheresWaldo]

TG, I'm still not convinced. :lol:

Lucky for you Joe, I am not spending any of YOUR money! :D I'm sure you have heard that perception is reality, well I believe I get a better "feeling" ride when I use a tubular tire over a performance clincher, and I have tried many clinchers. Can't I attach a value to that that you can just accept and not dismiss because it is of little value to you? I also assume you have never used sealant. Can't really have an informed opinion on it if you don't use it. Weight disadvantage is minimal if you preseal tubulars, weight disadvantage is basically non-existent if you choose to use something like Vittoria Pit Stop. But I am not here to try to change your mind, so do whatever it is that you want.

No big hills here, the hardest ride in my county has one long climb and it's only .9 miles @ 7% grade. I am not a big fan of driving our tandem miles and miles, so I can ride it a few. Although I do that with my single bike, hmm, strange priorities. :o

rmac, you might want to stay out of the thread railing against 10sp drivetrains. :eek:

[WheresWaldo]

Well spoken TandemGeek.

It's been an interesting thread- no epiphanies, many strongly held opinions, a few sphincters in danger of rupture but no blowouts yet, no one saying thanks for all the great advice, now I know what to do.

Quo Vadis?

Rick

http://www.puretna.com/pic/smilies/thankyou.gif

[Recluse]

Have you actually ridden each of the setups - cantilever, caliper, v-brake and disc and compared them? I did by demoing bikes prior to picking which brake I wanted to spec my tandem with. The disc brake was the only brake of all those that I demo'd that could bring the tandem to a stop by itself by using just the rear brake. All the tandems were setup and the brakes functioned correctly.

I want a front disc so I don't have to worry about the rim heating up too much and blowing the front tire. I've encountered downhills where i've had to pull off to let the rim cool down so I didn't run the risk of a blowout. Let's also not forget the inherent advantages to discs in wet weather as well.

********

We have had our new Trek T2000 for about 4 months now. We recently had a close call coming
down a hill during a century where a "half bike" wasnt making it up the other side of the hill and ended up
stopping. There were a lot of screaming folks in the rear. We were hard on the brakes at 40 plus. Needless to say to avoid the bottle neck we as well as everyone behind us came to a screaching halt.
I put my hand down on my front rim after we pulled the bike off the road to avoid anyone rear ending us and the rim was pretty hot.

We ride in Northern SC and North Carolina frequently and that last incident pushed me over the edge and
I am having my LBS install the rear disc on the bike. If it doesnt actually give me more stopping power at least it will give me more peace of mind when Im scrubbing speed off using the rear disc on the longer decents.

Any newer Treks out there that have had this upgrade done?

[joe@vwvortex]

Actually, it really IS a fixed gear tandem...
http://sheldonbrown.org/picchio/index.html

It has a flip flop hub with fixed one side and freewheel on the other - i'll bet they ride in freewheel way more than fixed.

[joe@vwvortex]

TG, I'm still not convinced. :lol:

Lucky for you Joe, I am not spending any of YOUR money! :D I'm sure you have heard that perception is reality, well I believe I get a better "feeling" ride when I use a tubular tire over a performance clincher, and I have tried many clinchers. Can't I attach a value to that that you can just accept and not dismiss because it is of little value to you? I also assume you have never used sealant. Can't really have an informed opinion on it if you don't use it. Weight disadvantage is minimal if you preseal tubulars, weight disadvantage is basically non-existent if you choose to use something like Vittoria Pit Stop. But I am not here to try to change your mind, so do whatever it is that you want.

No big hills here, the hardest ride in my county has one long climb and it's only .9 miles @ 7% grade. I am not a big fan of driving our tandem miles and miles, so I can ride it a few. Although I do that with my single bike, hmm, strange priorities. :o

rmac, you might want to stay out of the thread railing against 10sp drivetrains. :eek:

I agree - to each his own. While I'm no featherweight climber - I love to go downhill - which means I have to go uphill. There is no shortage of hills here - I can do 2400 vertical in 3 miles if I want :D However - i've never done that climb on the tandem. We did do 25k vertical over 461miles in cycle oregon though. No way would I have even attempted that ride with tubulars - even with all the support we had.

[cornucopia72]

We have used calipers and V-brakes in the front and V-brakes, drum and disc in the back. Our preference hands down:

Calipers in the front, disc on the back for most applications .....except when touring loaded, then v-brakes and drum in the back.

[TandemGeek]

It has a flip flop hub with fixed one side and freewheel on the other - i'll bet they ride in freewheel way more than fixed.

$1,000.00 says you don't know much about Sheldon Brown or his wife Harriett Fell and wouldn't have a clue as to how they rode this tandem when Sheldon was still able to ride....

[WheresWaldo]

I agree - to each his own. While I'm no featherweight climber - I love to go downhill - which means I have to go uphill. There is no shortage of hills here - I can do 2400 vertical in 3 miles if I want :D However - i've never done that climb on the tandem. We did do 25k vertical over 461miles in cycle oregon though. No way would I have even attempted that ride with tubulars - even with all the support we had.

I spent a month this summer visiting family and we took our single bikes with us. I spent the entire month climbing hills all over Eugene/Springfield, up and down the coast range and in and out of the Cascades. I detest climbing but so far this year I have ridden over 3500 miles and climbed 131,000 ft, including one Century that finished at the top of Mt Mitchell. I have not done any of that climbing on our tandem, but I did 100% of it on tubulars, no support needed!

BTW, I also love descending, I have been over 70mph on two wheels twice, over sixty a handful of times and over 50 to many times to remember. Now that I am older and less stupid (notice I didn't say smarter) I try to limit my descents to a maximum speed of about 45mph.

[joe@vwvortex]

I spent a month this summer visiting family and we took our single bikes with us. I spent the entire month climbing hills all over Eugene/Springfield, up and down the coast range and in and out of the Cascades. I detest climbing but so far this year I have ridden over 3500 miles and climbed 131,000 ft, including one Century that finished at the top of Mt Mitchell. I have not done any of that climbing on our tandem, but I did 100% of it on tubulars, no support needed!

BTW, I also love descending, I have been over 70mph on two wheels twice, over sixty a handful of times and over 50 to many times to remember. Now that I am older and less stupid (notice I didn't say smarter) I try to limit my descents to a maximum speed of about 45mph.

Over 70mph a couple times? Pretty damn impressive. What RPM's were you pedaling in what gear? :D

Never been 70mph - hit 67.5 on the tandem once - but that's as fast as i've ever gone. I've gotten older but i've never grown up either :D

[joe@vwvortex]

$1,000.00 says you don't know much about Sheldon Brown or his wife Harriett Fell and wouldn't have a clue as to how they rode this tandem when Sheldon was still able to ride....

You are probably right - but why brakes on a Fixie?

[WheresWaldo]

Since everyone is talking about brakes, let me ask if this sounds reasonable. Note that we do not do any kind of mountain riding with the tandem as both my stoker/daughter and I much prefer climbing on single bikes. So there are no painfully slow uphills, or screaming fast downhills. In 2005 CDale went to Avid BB7 with 8" discs front and rear. Given how we intend to ride, is swapping both out to linear pulls like the Avid Single Digit 7 a reasonable swap? It seems from comments that there is plenty of braking power from the linear pulls. What do everyone think. Please note that this would also subtract over a pound of weight off the bike for very little money.

[WheresWaldo]

Over 70mph a couple times? Pretty damn impressive. What RPM's were you pedaling in what gear? :D

Never been 70mph - hit 67.5 on the tandem once - but that's as fast as i've ever gone. I've gotten older but i've never grown up either :D

Single bike, running 54/11 spun out about 40, after that it was all technique and a very steep, long and straight mountain descent. Not hard to do if you can get aero enough. I can't do it anymore as I just can't get into that small a tuck anymore. I am more than happy to keep it under 50 from now until I can't ride anymore.

[TandemGeek]

You are probably right - but why brakes on a Fixie?

Stealing a phrase from the sportbike side of my interests.... "Because the street is not a track."

Yes, those who are all caught up in fixed-gear cult do tend to eschew brakes on their fixies.

However, I believe that a number folks like myself who happen to ride a fixed-gear (for whatever reason / purpose) and who have careers, families, and enjoy spending time doting on their grandkids will often times have at least a front brake on their fixed gear bike: perhaps a rear as well if it started out life as a road bike.

While it's true that you can jump/skid a fixed gear to an abrubt stop, doing so won't get you stopped as fast as or predictably as a front brake and it destroys your rear tire. Frankly, I'm not as concerned about trashing a $20 tire as I am of slamming into -- or being slammed into by -- something bigger than me.

[zonatandem]

Way back when, have pedaled a 116" gear (56x13) at 43.5 mph . . . both of us bouncing on the saddle; as the only mixed tandem couple and not willing to give an inch to several male/male much younger tandem duos on a slight down hill run from Oracle to Oracle Junction, for 11 miles.
Those were the days . . .
Have test ridden a prototype tandem (solo) with front/rear discs on downhill and hit the brakes at 30+ mph. Loads of 'stop 'n skid' power but considered it overkill.
Prefer our current setup, Dura Ace front calipher + Tektro Mini V-brake rear which provides all the power we need for downhills/traffic situations. Can ride this combo solo, hit just the front brake and instantly pop up the rear wheel. Feel quite safe with this brake setup.
Just our experience/opinion.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[prairie*boy]

Waldo:

Given that Cannondale's current street tandem (low cost version) uses Cannondale's equivalent to the Avid SD-7; you are probably fine... Just remember the Travel Agents.

An alternative are Shimano R550s (or equivlents) which weight less and don't need the Travel Agents.

But why not go to calipers on the front on a new Carbon fork? ( I am also trying to get this through Parliament and get the Governor General's signature - Canadian equivalent Eh!...but have a Fox F100X on the wishlist for my ATB frame that is in conflict and higher priority)

So while I think you are NUTS to be replacing the rear disc, as you have pointed out it is YOUR money.

Carbon bars are nice on Aluminum tandems as they kill vibration in addition to carving grams off.

To answer a previous question - Stealth Cycling sells a carbon stoker stem...not sure who makes it for them...

Don
(Avoiding the tubular nonsense :) )

[cornucopia72]

Prefer our current setup, Dura Ace front calipher + Tektro Mini V-brake rear which provides all the power we need for downhills/traffic situations. Can ride this combo solo, hit just the front brake and instantly pop up the rear wheel. Feel quite safe with this brake setup.
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

With a similar setup (caliper/V-brake) we also get all the stoping power that we need. However, ridding/descending on the central sierras of California, the rear disc is very handy. The rear disc also allows you to ride "safely" during heavy rain.

[zonatandem]

Stealth Cycling c/f stoker stems are made by Bob Davis, (ariZona Tandems), but as mentioned earlier he is ceasing operations at end of 2007 due to health issues.
We have one of his prototype c/f adjustable stems with a ti glue-on for the . . . mini garage door opener.

[TandemGeek]

Is this an attack on my persona experience/knowledge , or are you providing objective, measurable reasons why you think that disc brakes are superior?

Neither: I simply asked from where you've gained your understanding of the pros and cons of disc brakes and was curious if you'd had a tandem or any other type of bicycle with discs at some point.

Anything else here? I was somewhat looking forward to hearing more about your experiences with disc brakes or the source for your data on discs. I suspect it is Dan, but just wanted to be sure as it would then shed a lot of light on why you hold the views that you do.

[TandemGeek]

Since everyone is talking about brakes, let me ask if this sounds reasonable... is swapping both (discs) out to linear pulls like the Avid Single Digit 7 a reasonable swap?

Given that throughout the 70's, 80's and most of the 90's most tandems were fitted with cantilever brakes, and from the 90's on cantilevers (to include the linear-pull variety) continue to be the default as the OEM brakes on the vast majority of tandems sold, I think one could safely say that yes, using some type of cantilever brake on a tandem that will not be used on challenging terrain will provide stopping power that is on par with the vast majority of well-made tandems in use today.

Are the Avid 7's the best option? Highly subjective and best addressed by teams who are already using them. I have Arch Rivals on my Ventana Marble Peak (solo bike) with the Single Digit MTB levels: very nice, almost as nice as the also discontinued Arch Rival Supremes which were also an excellent linear-pull cantilever brake for tandems, or so those who used them said.

Is changing out the disc brakes reasonable? Again, highly subjective and best addressed by looking in the mirror and asking yourself: "Will this increase the satisfaction and enjoyment I derive from my tandem more than anything else I could do with the same expendature of discretionary income and without any undue change in the level of risk I must already contend with as a cyclist?"

------------------

FWIW, this is our tandem brake ownership history as a 280lbs team. Our local on-road terrain is moderately hilly with local mountains that feature many, long 4% - 8% climbs/descents, and a few that hit between 12% and 20% but those tend to be short. Will will occasionally venture off to other locales where the rare, longer, steeper descents 'could' warrant supplemental hub-mounted brakes.


'95/96 Santana Arriva: XT cantilevers with XTR shoes and pads. Seemed like they worked just fine.

'98 Erickson: Campy Record differential calipers front & rear with supplemental Hope mechanical rear disc. The calipers seemed to be superior to the cantilevers and the Hope disc, although only installed and used a few times, did exactly what it was intended to do... create drag to slow descent speed on very long, steep and challenging switchbacks. No how, no way would that rear disc stop a tandem by itself even on a flat and level road.

'98 Cannondale MT3000: Shimano XT linear pull / V-brakes. Fine for most single track, but we melted the minimal pads off on a fast fire-road descent and, well, that was the end of that for V-brakes on our off-road tandems.

'00 Ventana ECdM: Hope 04DH 4-pot open hydraulics. Simply awesome stopping power and very high heat capacity for off-road use. However, we still succeeded in achieving heat-induced disc lock on two occasions.

'02 Erickson: Campy Chorus differential calipers front & rear at first with Hope mech. rear disc / drag brake. Same as '98 Erickson: excellent rim brakes for our riding style and weight. Rear triangle modified to allow Hope disc change out for Avid BB Road in '04 as primary/sole rear brake matched with Campy Chorus differential front brake: best yet. 6,000 trouble-free miles with the rear Avid.

'02 Ventana ECdM: Hope Enduro 4-pot open hydraulics. Same awesome stopping power as previous brakes in a smaller package and very high heat capacity for off-road use. However, these suckers have always squeeled like a stuck pig despite a variety of attempted fixes. Just haven't bothered to try other brakes and, well, it lets riders ahead know that we're behind them.

'07 road tandem: Campy Record differential caliper front and either caliper or Avid BB Road in rear depending on how I feel when I built it up.

Many other brake and brake systems have been test ridden, worked-on, or researched over the years but these are the ones that we have selected for our own use and lived with. Guess what, these and all of the other brakes work "pretty well" when set-up per the manufacturers specifications, properly maintained, and used within their design limits. Rider experience, judgement, and technique seem to have a greater impact on brake performance than anything else, short of a screwed up brake installation. Some brake systems -- from certain cantilevers to discs -- are complex enough to screw up without trying hard.

[WheresWaldo]

Thank you TG for that insightful post. The reason I chose the SD7 was that I went to several tandem sites and saw that this was the brake speced on most of their "performance" tandems. I did notice that "racing" tandems tended to use a Dual Pivot style of brake. I will most likely swap the brakes out as I have already mentioned that our riding style is flat recreational rides of no more than 50 miles, no steep climbs or long descents. Even though we are 100 pounds heavier than you, I am sure we will not be stressing those brakes to their limits. Now I will just be patient and wait for a good snipe on eBay.

Besides that I can probably recoup the entire cost of the brakes and a bit more by selling the BB7+rotors on eBay also.

[TandemGeek]

Just as an anecdotal on brakes and the demands of tandems...

There have been two situations where having only rim brakes on our road tandem were we (me) were flirting with a potential brake fade / rim heating problem:

1. Any time we get caught behind cars or motorcycles while descending steep and twisty mountain roads, to include our local ~2mi / 8% ave. climb/descent at Kennesaw Mtn.

2. After cresting Tepesquite Canyon road whilst riding between Santa Rosa and Solvang, instead of being treated to an refreshing and exciting series of fast twisties where we could amortize the last 30 minutes of climbing in 120* heat, we discovered that part of the road had not yet been repaired following severe weather and was dotted with hundreds of washed out potholes.

In both instances, instead of being able to let the tandem "fly" between corners where max braking would be used to control speed through the corners, the unexpected / unwelcome impediments created a situation where we (me) were forced to alternatively be on the front or rear brake all of the time to control speed without the benefit of fast flowing air moving across the rims to aid in rim cooling.

It has been these rare and unexpected situations, along with the occasional descent in the rain, that has compelled us to use the front rim brake / rear disc configuration on the tandem(s) that we'll most likely be riding when we encounter these high-brake demand situations.

If you never venture into the mountains, it's not really an issue. But, for those who do it provides an alternative to the tried and true methods of dealing with the unexpected heavy demands that put high heat loads into the tires of a bicycle, e.g., stopping mid-descent to let things cool off, hauling around a 2 lb Arai drum brake that's rarely used as anything more than a parking brake, or being unware of how heat loads generated by the rim brakes and tire friction can combine to unseat a tire bead in dramatic fashion.

Just some food for thought and some insight into why Avid rear discs have been embraced by many teams who do encounter mountainous terrain on a semi-regular basis.

[zonatandem]

We all have some stories to tell with braking . . . but seems we've al survived to ride TWOgether some more!
During one tour from Grand Canyon to Mexico, got caught up in a hell of a downpour coming down the Mogollon Rim near miniscule town of Strawberry. Had one other tandem besides us on the tour and although we only had Mafac cantis, and they were running cantis + Arai drum, we had no problem keeping things under control. The other couple, being a bit 'stouter' than us and a bit less experienced, had a tougher time on that wet descent than we did. On a real twisty part of the descent, ADOT (AZ Dept of Transportation) had tought it wise to install metal ADOT-bots (round metal pieces) so car tires would give off a loud noise to slow them down . . . not fun at all traversing them in a downpour, so we slalomed into opposite traffic lane to avoid them . . . Yipes! The best part of the descent was stopping at Strawberry's only restaurant. Owner had the fireplace going (this was late September and at about 7,000 feet altitude) and we hung our stuff out to dry a bit and warmed up with coffee and great pie!
Feel comfortable descending steep/twisty roads with the brakes on your twicer? Keep it that way.
If not, a third brake whether drum/disc or even a third canti can do wonders for your team.
Have used centerpulls, sidepulls, U-brake (remember those?), cantis, drum and discs on various tandems
and all work to varying degrees of satisfaction. Yup, besides 'go-power' tandems need 'stop-power!'
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[WheresWaldo]

Update:

Cannondale in their infinite wisdom removed the cantilever studs from their road tandem with disk brakes. So I had to call CDale for the part number, by the way it is A412. Then off to the CDale dealer to order them. That was on Thursday, they said it should be in the shop by Tuesday this week, at a cost of $3.00 each. Four are required. Not bad, but still a little nuisance having to order them instead of them being installed on the bike. Guess it saved CDale a few pennies not to have to install them and then made them a buck or two selling them aftermarket.

So next week AVID BB7 Disc brakes with 203mm rotors come off and cantilever studs plus Avid SD-7 go on. Will probably sell the Disc brakes to help offset the cost.

Still deciding what to do about wheels.
Cost of upgrades:

$44.00 - Avid Single Digit 7 brakes front/rear w/shipping (eBay)
$12.84 - Four CDale cantilever studs (A412) w/sales tax (LBS)

$56.84 - Total

[dubbelop]

Since everyone is talking about brakes, let me ask if this sounds reasonable. Note that we do not do any kind of mountain riding with the tandem as both my stoker/daughter and I much prefer climbing on single bikes. So there are no painfully slow uphills, or screaming fast downhills. In 2005 CDale went to Avid BB7 with 8" discs front and rear. Given how we intend to ride, is swapping both out to linear pulls like the Avid Single Digit 7 a reasonable swap? It seems from comments that there is plenty of braking power from the linear pulls. What do everyone think. Please note that this would also subtract over a pound of weight off the bike for very little money.
OK, so you lose a little over a pound of weight (roughly 2,5% of the total bike weight). Still: why bother with this swap? The BB7s work great - at least on our Road Tandem.

[mrfish]

Agree. Seems a strange upgrade to me.

For my own weight saving I put the following on my T2000 tandem, in order of biggest to smallest weight savings (my estimation, not properly weighed as I looked up weights etc. on weightweenies before purchase). Best bang for buck is losing the adjustable stoker stem, followed by the tyres and tubes.

Large
X2 carbon fork
Replace adjustable stoker stem with ordinary stem (ITM carbon) + shim
Pro Race II 23mm tyres & Continental Supersonic inner tubes
Thomson seatposts (still to do)
Syntace carbon bars captain

Medium
Flite seat captain
Thomson stem
Light ITM aluminium bars stoker
DA caliper brake front
Time pedals (there are lighter ones but cost / weight / performance is good I think)

Small
Fizik seat stoker
Red Aluminium bolts for non critical areas only (Partially done)
DA deraileur rear (still to do)

In terms of handling, the X2 fork is more lively at slow speeds, plus you need to apply more torque to 'control' the steering, particularly when going over ruts or when out of the saddle. However this is offset by a much lighter-feeling more 'pointy' tandem. It feels like a single bike rather than a heavy tank to steer, which I much prefer. Other upside is I don't have a nasty brake hanger so I can get my stem low enough and it looks like a racing bike. Downside is that the front crank is lower. However this isn't an issue as I wouldn't go in for pedal grazing in turns on a tandem. Given the cornering clearance of modern pedals, I don't think it's an issue. Final downside is that it's more difficult to ride no-handed, which my stoker doesn't like, so not a big issue.

[WheresWaldo]

mrfish, see my other thread!

Fork was a big deal, and I did swap that. Brakes save more weight than your stem replacement, and was probably cheaper too, please read my comments above about our riding style. As a review, last Sunday was typical tandem ride, 21.5 miles, 228 feet ascent, no load, no panniers, just us and the bike. Discs are overkill, IMHO.

Already have a Thomson stem, and Ritchey Carbon seatposts, need setback and while I have a Thomson Masterpiece on my single and a Thomson Elite on my daughter's single, I simply don't care for the aesthetics of the Thomson setback seat post.

The Poggio saddles are long gone, replaced with a Selle San Marco Aspide Glamour and a Specialized Toupe Gel. Tires and wheels are coming. I have a set of carbon Zipp bars on my single and I also have a FSA K-Wing sitting on a shelf since last year. Will be swapping the 46cm AL bars with the K-Wing, when I find a round to-it and buy it.

We personally own 8 pairs of SPD-SL pedals (1pr DA, 2pr 105, 5pr Ultegra), I think I am set there.

Not directed at mrfish:

I am beginning to wonder about the objection to the brake swap. It has me wondering if we are just a peculiar tandem team. I mean, we make time to ride the tandem every week, but we spend most of out time riding singles. We do not neglect the tandem, but we also don't put 1000's of miles on it either. A specific, I have 3800 miles riding this year, only about 300 of those miles are on the tandem. We enjoy riding the tandem, but we love riding our singles. Is that odd? We don't think so.

[Hermes]

Not directed at mrfish:
[/B]
I am beginning to wonder about the objection to the brake swap. It has me wondering if we are just a peculiar tandem team. I mean, we make time to ride the tandem every week, but we spend most of out time riding singles. We do not neglect the tandem, but we also don't put 1000's of miles on it either. A specific, I have 3800 miles riding this year, only about 300 of those miles are on the tandem. We enjoy riding the tandem, but we love riding our singles. Is that odd? We don't think so.

I do not think it is odd. My wife and I enjoy riding our singles a lot. We have different metrics than you. We ride the tandem every weekend and average 40 miles and we typically ride it once during the week in the regular season. This year we took it to Italy for a week for 270 miles. Soooo....we average around 3000 miles per year on the tandem and another 3000 on singles.

Most people buy tandems to equalize abilities or overcome a handicap that allows the parties to ride together. If two people can already ride together on singles, there is less of a compelling reason for a tandem.