Advocacy & Safety - Local farmers trying to ban cyclists

In Posey County Indiana local farmers are asking for an ordinance to ban bicycles on county roads.
The county commissioners are actually taking it under consideration.
I think that one particular biking group has them up in arms and now the farmers want all of us to pay the price, for a few arrogant cyclists.

Damn those pesky cyclists getting in the way of our slow, lumbering, 14 foot wide Massey Ferguson rotary combines.

is it the roadies or the critical massers this time?

In Posey County Indiana local farmers are asking for an ordinance to ban bicycles on county roads.

Here's the news (http://poseycountynews.com/news/02.htm). Apparently, all of the law-breaking cyclists are making it difficult for farmers to do their jobs.

Has anybody ever proposed banning cars from the roads for the same reason?

What does Indiana state law say? A county commission does not supersede a state legislature.

At any rate, the simplest thing to do is not more legislation. The simplest thing to do is enforce legislation that is already on the books.

I think there is more to the story then is being reported. So two reasons they want to ban them is because farmers are leaving various debris on public roads and rather then cleaning up or not doing it they want to ban cyclists for "their safety". Also for the whole darting thing. That is very vague. Darting from where, under what circumstances? Maybe few cyclists were almost taken out by farmers vehicles and decided to take the whole lane every time they hear/see one approach from behind. As for law breaking part. What laws? Without more details it's hard to tell if there were any laws broken in the first place. Maybe farmers just saying it to rally support for their cause, or they consider cyclists not riding in the gutter/sidewalk as them breaking the laws. Just throwing some other alternatives before this turns in to another "those damn roadies blah blah blah" thread.

At any rate, the simplest thing to do is not more legislation. The simplest thing to do is enforce legislation that is already on the books.

+1. Would anyone consider banning cars because so many motorists break the law? Just enforce the law on the law-breaking cyclists.

Hopefully whatever local cycling advocacy groups exist there are aware of the issue. If not, they should be.

This reminds me of something I learned recently, that the genesis of the Bicycle Coalition of Maine came about in response to the Maine Legislature seriously considering a bill to ban cyclists within 12 feet of the center of the road. :rolleyes: Some dedicated advocates got together, lobbied lawmakers, and managed to defeat the bill, which had originally looked likely to pass! :eek:

http://www.in.gov/legislative/ic/code/title9/ar21/ch8.html
C 9-21-8-48
Vehicles with contents escaping; prohibition from operation; exceptions
Sec. 48. A vehicle, except:
(1) a vehicle containing poultry or livestock being transported to market; or
(2) a highway maintenance vehicle engaged in spreading sand or deicing chemicals;
may not be driven or moved on a highway if the vehicle's contents are dripping, sifting, leaking, or otherwise escaping from the vehicle.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.79-1991, SEC.4.

IC 9-21-8-47
Vehicles that must be operated to avoid damage to highways or interference with traffic
Sec. 47. The following vehicles must be moved or operated so as to avoid any material damage to the highway or unreasonable interference with other highway traffic:
(1) Machinery or equipment used in highway construction or maintenance by the Indiana department of transportation, counties, or municipalities.
(2) Farm drainage machinery.
(3) Implements of agriculture.
(4) Firefighting apparatus owned or operated by a political subdivision or a volunteer fire department (as defined in IC 36-8-12-2).
(5) Farm vehicles loaded with farm products.
As added by P.L.2-1991, SEC.9. Amended by P.L.1-1999, SEC.31; P.L.210-2005, SEC.35.

Here's the news (http://poseycountynews.com/news/02.htm). Apparently, all of the law-breaking cyclists are making it difficult for farmers to do their jobs.

Has anybody ever proposed banning cars from the roads for the same reason?


No, but 99% of cars do not break the law. The same cannot be said about cyclists.

As someone who has to give talks about these very topics to non-cycling people I can tell you that running stop signs and stop lights is the single biggest thing you can do to ensure that someday no one can bike on the roads.

No, but 99% of cars do not break the law. The same cannot be said about cyclists.


:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:


motorists break the law every time they exceed the speed limit, that's 90% or more right there. 7.5% of them don't stop for red lights.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=356819

Last year I was riding down a hill and I heard a tractor at the intersection, around the corner.

I stopped short of the intersection, and I heard noise like whirring metal.

It was a blue Ford tractor with the lawnmower arm on the side.

Then two road bikes came down the hill. I tooted my Zounds airhorn and yelled "Stop!" while waving my arms. If that girl hadn't of stopped, she would've went right into the cutting arm of the tractor.I think I saved a life that day.

Please, to all cyclists, be prepared to stop for all large trucks and tractors.

What a load of crap. Cyclists are breaking the law? How about giving them tickets like every other vehicle who breaks the law on teh road. WE don't need more laws.

-D

:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:


motorists break the law every time they exceed the speed limit, that's 90% or more right there. 7.5% of them don't stop for red lights.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=356819

Give me a break. Do you stop (foot down) for stop signs?

Give me a break. Do you stop (foot down) for stop signs?
gosmsgo - I agree that a majority of cyclists break traffic laws in obvious ways, but I also agree a majority of motorists do as well. Cyclists mostly break the law by rolling thru stop signs (and to a lesser degree red lights).

I see more cyclists go relatively fast (10-15mph) thru stop signs than I see motorists at this same speed. But most if not all motorist also do not stop at stop signs unless they have to, but will roll thru at 5mph or so. Some motorists do go thru at 10-15mph, but fewer percentage than cyclist at that higher speed. That makes the cyclist rate of not stopping at stop signs look higher.

Also foot down is not legally required for a stop. Per AZ law:
"Stop", if required, means complete cessation from movement."

Al

I hardly think you can compare 90% of cyclists who dont even stop pedalling as they go through a stop sign to a motorists slowing down to 3 mph and then going.

Everytime I see a biker approaching a stop sign I hope and hope that they will stop......Im ALWAYS disapointed. I have had more cyclists get pissed off at me for stopping in front of them then I have seen cyclists stop.

Its laziness mixed with stupidity and its the single biggest thing we have going against us.

Here are some videos:

One cyclist blows thru 4-way stop without even looking until they were already in intersection and did not slow down at all. The other cyclist slowed, but also did not fully stop. Ooops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyEBKs5Kv9I

Cyclist making left turn against traffic does not stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t04RKmSbD0

Motorist does not stop at stop sign:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFybHeszGTo

(This is not a statistical sample and not intended to prove any point of view)

Al

Also foot down is not legally required for a stop. Per AZ law:
"Stop", if required, means complete cessation from movement."

Al

So you track stand at every stop sign? You have to understand also that most motorists think that if your feet are on the pedals that your still moving. Hence you might as well have ran the sign from a PR point of view.

Just put your foot down for 1/2 second.

Here are some videos:

One cyclist blows thru 4-way stop without even looking until they were already in intersection and did not slow down at all. The other cyclist slowed, but also did not fully stop. Ooops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyEBKs5Kv9I

Cyclist making left turn against traffic does not stop:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t04RKmSbD0

Motorist does not stop at stop sign:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFybHeszGTo

Al

The cyclists who shot this video did not stop either and yet mocked the other cyclist for not stopping.

They are both idiots from my point of view.

The cyclists who shot this video did not stop either and yet mocked the other cyclist for not stopping.

They are both idiots from my point of view.

Pay more attention to what I wrote.

For what its worth, I do stop at this stop every day. This day I didn't as I wanted to see what the other cyclist was doing in response to my presence. They did nothing.

Al

No, but 99% of cars do not break the law.

Which law do they not break? Where? Source?

Stop pulling stuff out of thin air.

Pay more attention to what I wrote.

Al

What did I write that did not match what you wrote?

I was commenting on the video

Which law do they not break? Where? Source?

Stop pulling stuff out of thin air.

Just the source of me on my bike everyday. Its called an opinion.

I rarely if ever see a motorists run a stop sign or a light but I see virtually every cyclists run stop signs and about 1/4 (probably) of cyclists run stop lights.

You have to understand also that most motorists think that if your feet are on the pedals that your still moving.

Strange, motorists BEHIND me seem to think I am causing undo delay.



Just put your foot down for 1/2 second.

Why?

So you track stand at every stop sign? You have to understand also that most motorists think that if your feet are on the pedals that your still moving. Hence you might as well have ran the sign from a PR point of view.

Just put your foot down for 1/2 second.

If there is another vehicle present I always (there are rare exceptions) put a foot down when stopped. It is an excellent communication tool.

When I am fully alone, I come to a legal stop, then proceed.

Al

Just the source of me on my bike everyday. Its called an opinion.


I'd say it's a made-up false statistic in an attempt to advance an argument.

I hardly think you can compare 90% of cyclists who dont even stop pedalling as they go through a stop sign to a motorists slowing down to 3 mph and then going.

Everytime I see a biker approaching a stop sign I hope and hope that they will stop......Im ALWAYS disapointed. I have had more cyclists get pissed off at me for stopping in front of them then I have seen cyclists stop.

Its laziness mixed with stupidity and its the single biggest thing we have going against us.

It's also an issue of inertia that is hardly a factor to someone sitting in crushed leather seat pushing on a gas pedal.

In Idaho, the laws allow cyclists to treat stop signs as yields.

And certainly cyclists tend to be more "out in the environment" and can hear as well as smell and see other vehicles approaching an intersection.


MOTOR VEHICLES
CHAPTER 7
PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES
49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS. (1) A person operating a
bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a stop sign shall slow down and,
if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection. After slowing
to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to
any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely
as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving
across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except that a
person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if
required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the intersection
without stopping.
(2) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a
steady red traffic control light shall stop before entering the intersection
and shall yield to all other traffic. Once the person has yielded, he may
proceed through the steady red light with caution. Provided however, that a
person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if
required, may cautiously make a right-hand turn. A left-hand turn onto a
one-way highway may be made on a red light after stopping and yielding to
other traffic.
(3) A person riding a bicycle shall comply with the provisions of section
49-643, Idaho Code.
(4) A signal of intention to turn right or left shall be given during not
less than the last one hundred (100) feet traveled by the bicycle before
turning, provided that a signal by hand and arm need not be given if the hand
is needed in the control or operation of the bicycle.

What did I write that did not match what you wrote?

I was commenting on the video

I wrote:
"The other cyclist slowed, but also did not fully stop. Ooops."

You then wrote:
"The cyclist ... mocked the other cyclist for not stopping"

I mocked no one, I only made a factual statement of what occurred.

Al

Strange, motorists BEHIND me seem to think I am causing undo delay.




Why?

What do you mean that the motorists behind you think you are causing them undo delay? I ride everywhere, everyday and I dont think motorists get all ticked off because I had the nerve to stop at a stop sign. ha

7.5% of them (motorists) don't stop for red lights.


If you put any thought at all into this you realize it can't possibly be true. Not that thoughtfulness is a hallmark of some of the more ardent anti-motorist people around here.

I know that the group I bike with stops whenever there is any traffic visible.
If there is no traffic then we slowly go through the stop sign, but we usually have someone at the intersection looking out for everyone else. We also use hand signals whenever we turn or stop.
There is another club in the area that has a few members pull out in front of traffic, hassle motorists and tak up the whole lane. Those are the ones that are p*ssing off the farmers, unfortunately we all suffer because of that.

I do not know if they can even pass any kind of ordinance, but if they do we will go down fighting it.

I know that the group I bike with stops whenever there is any traffic visible.
If there is no traffic then we slowly go through the stop sign, but we usually have someone at the intersection looking out for everyone else. We also use hand signals whenever we turn or stop.
There is another club in the area that has a few members pull out in front of traffic, hassle motorists and tak up the whole lane. Those are the ones that are p*ssing off the farmers, unfortunately we all suffer because of that.

I do not know if they can even pass any kind of ordinance, but if they do we will go down fighting it.

Sounds like both clubs break the law. I see no difference between the two.

What do you mean that the motorists behind you think you are causing them undo delay? I ride everywhere, everyday and I dont think motorists get all ticked off because I had the nerve to stop at a stop sign. ha

Ha what.

I have no idea where you ride.

Where I ride motorists expect to roll through stop signs if there is no opposing traffic present, and they expect all other traffic, including bikes, to do the same. Anything else is undo delay as they see it. That's an opinion.

I wrote:
"The other cyclist slowed, but also did not fully stop. Ooops."

You then wrote:
"The cyclist ... mocked the other cyclist for not stopping"

I mocked no one, I only made a factual statement of what occurred.

Al

If that is you in the video then your goofy laugh sure sounds like you are mocking the other cyclists.

Listen to it and ask yourself if you were honestly mocking that person or not.

gosmsgo,
I just realized you mean't I verbally mocked the cyclist for not stopping at the time of the event (I thought you meant I mocked them in my BF post about the incident). I don't listen to the audio of my videos except the day I create them.

Yes I was fully aware of what I was doing. I saw them coming and was prepared to fully stop and could have. I didn't as I was in awe of this guy riding head down with no apparent sign he was planning to stop let alone turn his head to look. I intentionally kept moving faster than normal to see if he was going to do anything. Yeah, maybe a bit childish playing games like this.

As punishment to myself I could load up clips from the last weeks of going thru this intersection showing I usually fully stop and you could watch them, but that would be punishment for both of us.

edit, just saw your parallel post: the goofy laugh was at myself for the other cyclist to hear as I knew I hadn't stopped either. I self depreciating laugh if you will, or a laugh at the absurdity of me calling out 'nice stop' when I myself did not.

If you think about it, I am not going to post videos of me doing things I would rather keep secret from BF, especially behaviors that I often argue against. I feel solid enough about my riding style that I can post exceptions to it with the understanding they are exceptions and don't make me a total hypocrite.

Does this look like the behavior of someone who does not out of habit stop where legally required:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_c_55kyscI

Al

If you put any thought at all into this you realize it can't possibly be true. Not that thoughtfulness is a hallmark of some of the more ardent anti-motorist people around here.

From the provided link:

"The first-day practice run of a new red light camera at Southwest 4th and Jefferson last week caught 226 of 3,011 vehicles."

So this article is a lie? Save the musing on thoughtfulness and explain your reasoning.

It's not even an article. It's a little blurb that says almost nothing. Moreover, even if we assume that 7.5% of those motorists really did just flat-out run a red light -- as opposed to trying to "beat the yellow" or whatever -- that still leaves the anti-motorists to extrapolate that the results of a single intersection on a single day means that 7.5% of Americans around the country don't stop for red lights. And anyone who's actually been to an intersection knows this isn't true.

I wonder why an article about a bunch of farmers who got together and called their councilpersons to initiate consideration of an ordinance against cyclists immediately turns to a debate about whether or not we cyclists have mostly ourselves to blame because we don't fully stop at stop signs and wait for stop lights. Stop signs and lights have nothing to do with the topic of the original post.

If the world is so insistent that I ride my bike as though I were a car, then, let jurisdictions (even the town that is the subject of this post) send out a detail to stop such wide spread dangerous activity by cyclists . . . but send them to street corners controlled by stop signs and traffic lights, not out onto some country road strewn (allegedly by their own admission) with corn cobs (and probably manure droppings) left behind by the complainants.

Can bona fide cycling advocates truly believe these locals justified in their action because many of us don't stop at stop signs?? I grew up in farm country. In my neck of the woods, the roads were flat as the top of a tin can, and, until the corn got high as an elephant's eye, you could see for miles in any direction, and, further, 99% of the time, you'd be the only vehicle in sight, anywhere. Tractors cannot sneak up on you, either. So, the tight-pants on this thread think I'm going to waste my energy track-standing or putting my foot down for a stop sign in that situation? You really have to be kidding. More to the point, stop signs and traffic lights have nothing to do with the farmers' complaint.

I am certain there is more to the story than we are reading about here - no doubt some riders or groups have picked a fight with these farmers - but I concur that the solution is to settle that fight, deal with those particular cyclists. Also, these farmers need to be informed that in this country, we don't restrict access to roads so that they are free to leave their droppings for the birds to clean up.

Caruso

The original story has nothing to do with stop signs. I think gosmso was trying to point out that cyclist behavior is most likely to affect cycling advocacy efforts. I doubt there are many stop signs in the farmland area.

But there are corn cobs on the road and wide vehicles, both of which result in cyclist legally taking the lane to ride safely, which is a behavior not desired by the locals.
1. Clean up the road way of debris that results in cyclists from always riding well away from shoulder (where debis collects) and causing swerving behavior (to avoid debris) Those who drop the material have a legal responsibility to not or at least to quickly remove it.
2. Teach the drivers of these large farm vehicles that they must pass with safe clearance, which maybe >5' given the size and windmass of the vehicle. Teach that when they approach a cyclist they should turn on left signal and wait a good distance back for a safe place to pass. Teach the cyclists that when the truck drivers respond as such it is an indication they desire to pass safely and that they (the cyclist) can move further right in response to that signal/communication when there are no oncoming vehicles.

Al

I ride these roads a lot.
I have never had a problem with any farmer that I have come across, so this whole thing threw me for a loop.
The farmers that I see are always friendly and usually wave and smile. I do the same.

I guess that a few disgruntled farmers and a few jack*ss cyclists are going to try and ruin it for the rest of us.

From the linked article:
Carl Schmitz approached the commissioners to talk about the problem of bicycling on the county roads, especially during planting and harvesting seasons. He cited specific problems on St. Philip and Stierley Roads.

He told the board that he is a farmer and his truck driver was recently verbally accosted because of corn cobs being on the road from the harvest.

He said he is worried about the riders safety from the debris in the roads but also because they do not follow traffic laws while riding. He said it is hard to stop heavy loads quickly when these riders dart out in front of the tractors or trucks pulling equipment or hauling loads.

The commissioners said they have received numerous calls on this matter.

Sheriff Jim Folz said that bicyclists are supposed to follow the same rules as vehicles, but they seldom do.

Schmitz asked the commissioners to look into an ordinance to control the riding on these roads for the safety of the riders and the farmers.

Sounds to me like one farmer should be the cause of the county going after the farmers for littering law and unsecure load law violations.

From the linked article:


Sounds to me like one farmer should be the cause of the county going after the farmers for littering law and unsecure load law violations.


I assure you that will be brought up, by me if the county decides to go ahead with the request.

So, the tight-pants on this thread think I'm going to waste my energy track-standing or putting my foot down for a stop sign in that situation? You really have to be kidding.
Caruso

Yep, you sure do have a good point there.

You use the roads for recreational purposes and then refuse to "waste energy" stopping at a stop sign.

You certainly are a piece of work. I'm not wasting my gas the next time I'm driving and have to stop at a stop sign. No sir!!! I'm just blowing it and saving my .000004 cents in gas.

A lot of self hating cyclists on these forums I guess?
I wonder why an article about a bunch of farmers who got together and called their councilpersons to initiate consideration of an ordinance against cyclists immediately turns to a debate about whether or not we cyclists have mostly ourselves to blame because we don't fully stop at stop signs and wait for stop lights. Stop signs and lights have nothing to do with the topic of the original post.

If the world is so insistent that I ride my bike as though I were a car, then, let jurisdictions (even the town that is the subject of this post) send out a detail to stop such wide spread dangerous activity by cyclists . . . but send them to street corners controlled by stop signs and traffic lights, not out onto some country road strewn (allegedly by their own admission) with corn cobs (and probably manure droppings) left behind by the complainants.

Can bona fide cycling advocates truly believe these locals justified in their action because many of us don't stop at stop signs?? I grew up in farm country. In my neck of the woods, the roads were flat as the top of a tin can, and, until the corn got high as an elephant's eye, you could see for miles in any direction, and, further, 99% of the time, you'd be the only vehicle in sight, anywhere. Tractors cannot sneak up on you, either. So, the tight-pants on this thread think I'm going to waste my energy track-standing or putting my foot down for a stop sign in that situation? You really have to be kidding. More to the point, stop signs and traffic lights have nothing to do with the farmers' complaint.

I am certain there is more to the story than we are reading about here - no doubt some riders or groups have picked a fight with these farmers - but I concur that the solution is to settle that fight, deal with those particular cyclists. Also, these farmers need to be informed that in this country, we don't restrict access to roads so that they are free to leave their droppings for the birds to clean up.

Caruso

As someone who has to give talks about these very topics to non-cycling people I can tell you that running stop signs and stop lights is the single biggest thing you can do to ensure that someday no one can bike on the roads.

That's the biggests thing I hear from non-cyclists as well.

I

In Idaho, the laws allow cyclists to treat stop signs as yields.

.

And in Lexington, Ky. it is illegal to carry an icecream cone in your back pocket. Who cares? Stupid laws are everywhere.
I am convinced that most cyclists run stop signs because they are very weak sprinters and are afraid they can't get up to speed.
I'm done dodging them on my bike.

I hardly think you can compare 90% of cyclists who dont even stop pedalling as they go through a stop sign to a motorists slowing down to 3 mph and then going.

Everytime I see a biker approaching a stop sign I hope and hope that they will stop......Im ALWAYS disapointed. I have had more cyclists get pissed off at me for stopping in front of them then I have seen cyclists stop.

Its laziness mixed with stupidity and its the single biggest thing we have going against us.

Your pretty good at your 99%, 90% blah, blah without anything to back it up. Today I watched two cars go through the green and 1 through the (very) red. Must be 33% of motorists run red lights, oh and stop signs by default. Sheet, the California stop is the norm in this country. Cyclist many times don't put their foot on the ground and many motorists don't come to a complete stop for two complete seconds.

A lot of self hating cyclists on these forums I guess?

Nope. Just a relative handful of BF posters who are self appointed cycling Nannies/Safety Experts proud of their contempt for all of the other cyclists who don't fit the proper profile. "Proper profile" of course means to act and think just like the arrogant SOBs who are so anxious to condemn all other cyclists.

Nope. Just a relative handful of BF posters who are self appointed cycling Nannies/Safety Experts proud of their contempt for all of the other cyclists who don't fit the proper profile. "Proper profile" of course means to act and think just like the arrogant SOBs who are so anxious to condemn all other cyclists.

I LIKE TO BIKE -

Why arent you in the car free forum making fun of all of us who bike well enough to live without cars?

Here is an update on the situation--
"In response to the issues raised at the Oct. 16, 2007 Posey County Commissioners Meeting, I made some calls to various Posey County Officials.

I spoke with Jolean Elpers, the county auditor, The Chief Deputy and the president of the County Commissioners, Scott Moye.

I tried get them to identify the source of the issues that they have with Bicyclists in the area. I was told that the officials are getting lots of reports of bicyclists cursing and waving finger gestures. I asked if the bicyclists were behaving illegally and was told that they are getting reports that bicyclists are riding more than two abreast and not obeying stop signs. I asked if he had witnessed this behavior or if it was only reports of a few citizens. He said that he had not witnessed the errant bicyclists behavior personally, but was interested to see this. He intends to begin observing and video taping cyclists in order to get a record of cyclist behavior. He said that most of the complaints referred to a large group of riders during the day on Sundays. I asked if he was referring to the Pumpkin Ride and he said no. That it must be a somewhat regularly scheduled ride through Posey County. Mr. Moye said that ! he has instructed the Sheriff's department to ticket bicycle riders for any infractions that they make.

Mr. Moye and I discussed that the laws of the road do apply to both cyclists and motorists and that the laws should be applied to both in an equal measure.

At this time they are not drafting any ordinance against cyclists, but are gathering information to determine the extent of the problem. "



Looks like it is a group that is not associated with the rides that I participate in. We do our rides on Saturdays and have never cussed out or flipped off anyone.
It sounds like they are taking a level headed approach to the situation, so far.