hi everyone i've beenlooking the framebuilders thread for quite some times now. i'm interrested to get my feet wet. i don't know if i'll will be hooked or building alot of frame so i would like start with minimum tools.

i would like to know if it's possible to build a frame without have reamers, for the seat tube and head tube? i called several bike shop here but unfortunatly nobody got the tools for these purposes.

is it possible to order pre-machined seat tube and head tube??

The tubes distort from the heat, pre-machining won't help.

You aren't that far from Montreal. Foundry Frame works, Marioni and Alan Sicard(sp) are all custom frame builders there. Some of the better Montreal bike shops should also have the head tube facing and ream kit to do your bike.

does the bb also distord in a significant way?

I think there are some ways around it other than taking your work to a local shop. Some shops are pretty helpful, others are going to treat it like a loyalty issue. Beyond that if someone's first efforts aren't wonderful, local places may not want to be responsible in any way for putting you on the road, nor may they want to run their high end tools designed for Colnogo assembly through a distorted pile of crud.

How you build can affect your outcome, welding is normally the lowest distortion, then lugs and brazing. The longer you take, and the less well thought out the sequence, the more distortion. The components and tubes you buy can affect distortion, keep it beefy. How tight the tube fits are will affect stuff.

Expanding reamer tools available for about 15 bucks US can ream the seat tube. Another technique is to sleeve the tube, which looks cool and makes the tube less likely to distort. Some report no reaming is then necesarry.

The bottom bracket can on some designs use a n eccentric BB and the insert doesn't see heat, so you can get away with that, though many designs make no sense with an eccentric BBs.

I was going to use a home made boring rod on the head tube, but I am thinking now of maybe just buying the reamer...

"does the bb also distord in a significant way?"

The BB is the biggest problem because it needs facing and the threads may need chasing, the tools for that are expensive. The guy who wrote "the book" seems to think this needs doing three times during building though, others disagree. But if one ran into that situation returning to the bike store would get very expensive. For those who use a BB threaded insert for cold setting the frame, they go through several steps where the distortion may affect them in the BB.

thanks for the info i just e-mailed foundry frameworks, i did not find alan sicard thou... and marinoni is a longer way from home. do marinoni still makes that sort of job for the hobbyist?

thanks for the info i just e-mailed foundry frameworks, i did not find alan sicard thou... and marinoni is a longer way from home. do marinoni still makes that sort of job for the hobbyist?

It was Alain Sicard, I haven't spoken with or visited Alain in two years. I misplaced his email address ,the last contact info I have is:

alain sicard
3599 rue ethel (verdun) montreal québec
h4g 1r9
514-768-7031

Alain prefers to communicate in French. He is also bat-sheot crazy and a lot of fun to be around. He was offering instruction at one time,maybe still is.
He was working on a framebuilding book (in french). I don't know if it was ever published

Bonne Chance!

I remember, he had a video, or an online book he was shopping around at one time.

http://www.frameforum.net/forum2/index.php?showtopic=694&hl=sicard

thanks alot for the info peterpan, i tought about the insert for the bb covered with graphite anti sease.

as an ex-machinist i would say that cutting the threads 3 times isn't very good. that's a 25.4 tpi wich is very fine as a thread of that size ( remember 1/4-20 or 1/4-28 fine). the total depth of a 24 tpi thread is 0.025". even few 0.001" (sorry i don't know how too wright thousandth.. ??) of inch would affect the strenght of the thread.

also you talked about an expendable reamer for 15$... where did you got that? i looked around on ebay and nova cycles and reamer were much pricier.

--god, my english is getting pretty bad now--

You need a "I" size adjustable reamer for a 28.6 seat tube. I have seen the cheap asian adjustable reamers in this size for $30. the cheap reamers are fine for amateur use. I have a cheap one I bought 10 years ago that still cuts just fine.

Harbour Freight has whole sets. Any machinist supply probably has individual ones:

www.Victornet.com

I think the problem is that if the bb distorts and you put in a set of expensive threaded inserts and they bind up, you're out hundreds of dollars. These cutters, taps, facers, and reamers, don't really create a perfect part, they just wack aside anything that is in the way. If the tube warped, then it is still warped when you are done. Far from perfect situation though it has worked for a 100 years or so.

If the tube warped, then it is still warped when you are done. Far from perfect situation though it has worked for a 100 years or so.

you got a point there. the insert i'll use won't be very expensive. just cups from an old bb, i'll braze some kind of handle to remove them after the job is done.

does facing the bb realy is important? i plan on using a cartridge bb and there's only one side that will actualy use the facing made.

thanks alot peter for the link links, i bookmark them , as i remembered that we had that freight harbor catalog at the shop. i got to ask if they ship to canada.

HF doesn't ship to Canada, and everything they sell in the catalog isn't in the shops. I have only been to the shop in Albany, which is probably closer to you than me. The Victor place should ship to Canada though, I have a guy in NYC if they won't.

I think there are a few things going on in the Paternek situation. He needs to straighten the frame, and the fixtures for that rely on the BB being faced for alignment. There isn't an absolute guarantee that the faced edge will actually be where the CL ought to be. What one expects when the first pipe is attached is for it to contract during cooling and pull theBB into a curve. The alignment paradigm for the various BB tools varies. On some of them it aligns off only one of the threads, on others it aligns off both. If it is coming out of one, then it will face out of alignment with the CL, if it is on both it will cut off angle with the CL, but one hopes parallel to the other side. It's one of those weird things where it's hard to be right. If he doesn't recut the threads he runs the risk of either of his inserts being stuck, and he is very careful with his tools. So I think it has less to do with the final cup assembly since that could be faced with a mill file, than the process.

One way to save some money is to make you own tools. Buy the cheap seat reamer anyway. Either make a facer that takes standard insert tooling, I saw one of those, you would need a Bridgeport and a rotary table of some sort. Or just buy a facing type cutter. After getting my cheaper tools I may well make better inserts for them. The handles and bits and pieces are a lot of the cost, and represent fairly straight forward tasks. Then all you would need to buy are the seat reamer tool and the two taps. The fact that there are two facing cutters may be a holdover to older days when the BB and HT where different sizes, or it may be so they can be in simultaneous use. For the small shop, one normally stores the cutter when not in use and it is unlikely one would need both tools at the same time, without assembly and disassembly being involved in any case. Look on the strawberry site, they used to sell the handles and you may see them there. As mentioned you can probably make your own HT reamer out of a boring bar.

My local bike shop had the taps and facers for the bottom bracket and it only cost $25 to have them do the job after I brazed the bike together. New bottom bracket taps are $250 to $300 each and you need left hand and right hand taps.

I was able to get the races into the head tube with very light sanding so I didn't need the services of the bike shop. Yellow Jersey (Madison, WI) used to ream and face head tubes if you bought the headset there. A local shop may do the same. Again the proper tools are expensive and if you are only going to use them a few times it might be cheaper to have someone else do it with their tools.