Classic & Vintage - Tubular wheels and older bikes

What kinds of wheels were used on the classic road bikes of the 60's - late 70's? I see ref's to "tubular" and "steel rim" in discussions of these older bikes wheels and rims. What is the characteristics(sp) of the various older wheel types? Do they deliver a better ride than the new wheels but are just heavier?

They were not alway heavier, the Early rims that I
am aware of were by Martano, usually light rims with
no eyelets. Other rims which were common were
Fiamme yellow and red label rims, VERY light tubular rims,
fiamme Ergals, a more all rounder type rim.
Nisi Sludi and Countach both pretty light.

Most of the heavy steel rims were from cheaper bike boom
bikes, the better bikes had good rims.
There were clincher rims available during 70's and 80's
Champion Hi-E was a good example.

Marty

What is a Tubular rim though as opposed to a rim on a new bike today? Also, are tubular rims from older bikes good to ride on?

DD, you glue a tubular onto the rim. The rim does not have the lip the tire catches on, as in a clincher-style rim. I've ridden on my old mavic tubular rims, and they're very nice. But flat tires are a pain to repair (it's fairly easy to replace the whole tire, but repairing a tubular tire is a process requiring needle and thread, glue, and a whole lot of patience and sore fingers). And they go flat a lot in my experience. Unless you're given to masochism or a hard core weight sort (tubulars are generally lighter than clinchers) or one for historical accuracy on your bikes, stick with clinchers.

You obviously need to do more research on the subject. I don't think I've ever seen a steel tubular rim-even the ancient metal tubular rims were always aluminum, even when they had wood inside them.

A tubular rim needs a tubular tire. They are only used on road bikes, and that's pretty much the way it's been since before WW2.

In this thread, I detect confusion over two radically different (both correct!) uses of the term, "tubular." Yes, tubular (sew-up) road racing tyres are glued onto special flangeless rims, and the latter are almost always aluminum, with a boxlike cross-section. However, I believe Schwinn referred to some of its heavy flanged steel clincher rims as "tubular," because their double-walled construction resulted from flattening a length of steel tubing before forming it into the final product. If you look at an old steel Schwinn rim, you will see a seam running along the spoke holes around the outside edge, under the rim strip, but not on the visible inside surface.

Originally posted by Poguemahone
DD, you glue a tubular onto the rim. The rim does not have the lip the tire catches on, as in a clincher-style rim. I've ridden on my old mavic tubular rims, and they're very nice. But flat tires are a pain to repair (it's fairly easy to replace the whole tire, but repairing a tubular tire is a process requiring needle and thread, glue, and a whole lot of patience and sore fingers). And they go flat a lot in my experience. Unless you're given to masochism or a hard core weight sort (tubulars are generally lighter than clinchers) or one for historical accuracy on your bikes, stick with clinchers.

Just got a 74 Motobecane with tubular rims and tires. I want to ride this bike a bit and don't want a huge PITA if/when I have a flat. Good idea to swap out the tubulars with conventinal clinchers? I'll keep the original rims and tires that came with the bike ofcourse but just not use them to ride on if they're that difficult to work with. Any recommendations for a good 700c replacement wheel set for a 74 Moto?

Not sure if its totally period correct, but look for some
Mavic module E rims.
You want to find a silver (chromed?) rim for the correct look.

The tubulars really aren't a pita, just takes a bit of time to get
used to.

Marty

Marty, I found a 27" module E rim from that era but not a 700c. When did 700c rims become the standard and are the Mavic modeule e rims available in 700c?

Thanks for all the helpful advice too
:beer:

I'm not sure on the dates for mavic rims etc.
I know I had 700c mod E rims during late 70's.
They might be a bit difficult to track down.
Check Classic Rendezvous for sale list, and post on
the WTB list.
If you subscribe to CR list, post WTB there.


Marty

I remeber those European rims as being a little delicate. I saw a couple get tacoed riding stretches that didn't do a thing to my Schwinn. I wonder if this is one place where using a new rim with it's modern metallurgy would be a better choice that maintaining complete authenticity.

Depends on the Rim if you ask me.
Fiamme red or yellow labels are a bit fragile (especially if you
start pushing the weight limits), but something like a
GP4 or Gel330 holds up pretty well.
Lets be honest here, we are not talking about show
quality, concours condition bikes. If you want new more
modern rims, go for it.
Heck, Sheldon Brown puts modern drive train on classic
frames. It doesn't matter.
I didn't find the Module E rims to be fragile and I commutted on
them daily. The dimpled sidewall was always a bit eccentric
if you asked me, but still they were good rims.

Marty

The current Mavic Open Pros are great rims IMO and, in silver, look "retro" enough for bikes that, as Marty says, are not show bikes but riders.

I've been riding them for awhile now and even when I topped out on the far side of 250# they held up great. They should be available in 36H which I imagine your hubs are and will build up into a wheelset you can ride w/o worrying about.

If you're really "in for a penny, in for a pound" go ahead and find another Campy rear hub that'll take a freewheel (front hubs haven't changed so you can go new there) and build a new clincher wheelset thereby keeping your original wheels, well, original.

on my PKN, I've got Mavic MA3 rims laced to set of older campy hubs. They look and work fine. Save the tubulars for occasions you want to show off the bike to other bike nuts, and ride on the clinchers.

I'am going to make this a winter project of sorts, to get a new clincher wheelset for this bike and be ready with it for next spring. I'am down to about 60-70 more good days to ride here and then its nothing but snow and dark weather for the next 5 months. I'll be taking Walter's advice I think and look for a set of those Mavic Open Pro's. Now, how bout a suitable tire to mount on these?

I have been riding on tubulars (also called sew-ups) for approx. 25 years. In my early racing days (let's say younger years), I remember changing them in the fraction of the time it would take to replace the tube of a conventional tire, that is the advantage. The glue will usually keep a spare tubular in place to the the finish line. They are a pain to repair, yes, but I don't agree they go flat more often then tires.. Rims are also very light. You can find inexpensive and still very good used rims on eBay and a good new tubular can be found at around $20-25.

Originally posted by Poguemahone
on my PKN, I've got Mavic MA3 rims laced to set of older campy hubs. They look and work fine. Save the tubulars for occasions you want to show off the bike to other bike nuts, and ride on the clinchers.

I have clinchers on all 5 bikes, including my PKN. Tubulars were fun in the early 1970s when the only alternatives were 70PSI gumwalled 27 x 1-1/4" clinchers, but I gave up on them more than 20 years ago, in favor of 100PSI clinchers.

Follow Lance's lead: train on clinchers and race on tubulars.

I have bike with both tubulars and clinchers that I ride for fun. There is a different feel to the tubulars and a definite coolness factor to have them installed on a real classic bike.

why is it that tubulars never come wider then about 22mm? doesn't that seem a bit strange to anyone when the standard road bike tire size is 23?

I not sure what the heck your talking about! Road bikes from the 60's and 70's that where of quality rode on aluminum rims especially tubulars...I do not recall ever seeing a steel tubular rim from those years and I've been riding since 67 (I'm remembering back when I was 14 and got into road biking). Even my Schwinn 3 speed I had when I was 14 had AL rims. Steel rims were not safe when they got wet and the racing crowd knew this plus they were heavier. So all racers in those days used tubulars because AL rims were safer when wet, lighter and clincher tires were not anywhere near good enough yet for racing.

By the way fixing a flat on tubular while on the road does take what Pogue said about the needle and thread business quite awhile to do (it took me about 45 minutes). HOWEVER must people that ride on tubulars carry a spare tubular pre-stretched and pre-glued and ready to go so that if a flat occurs you just remove the old one and replace it with the new one takes about 3-4 minutes (front tire) usually less time than fixing a clincher flat. Problem occurs is if you have more than 1 flat! I now have been using clinchers since 84 and will not go back unless I want to be retro (I still have my old Wolber tub rims). But fixing a flat with clinchers can be easy if all you do is remove one side of the tire mark where the stem aligns with the tire, pull about half of the tube out where the hole is, patch with glueless patch and reinstall tube and tire, takes about 5 minutes (front tire) if you know where the hole is. But I still carry a spare tube and a spare tire because you just never know and because I ride in remote areas where walking could become a very long issue. With clinchers I prefer to patch first and only use the spare tube if I cannot find the hole or the tube is destroyed, vs with tubulars I replaced the tire first before I tried fixing it.

I think John E explained it back on 08-23-03. There still seems to be confusion between rims intended for tubular tires, and the heavy duty double walled steel rims also called "tubular" for their construction, but were intended for clincher tires. The latter were common on lower end (think Schwinn Varsity, Raleigh three speed, etc) but decent quality bikes, too low end that weight was not a great consideration, and tended to be quite durable.

I am an old man so I can remember way back. The only steel rims I can remember were in the 1930s on what I would call hack bikes; the bikes that teen age boys and old women ride. Prior to the balloon tires around 1935 these bikes had tubeless tubular on steel rims with a wood core. The balloon tired bikes had all steel rims. After WWII I don’t remember anything but aluminum clincher rims on popular bike that would be ridden by college students. Racers generally rode on either aluminum or wooden Italian rims with sew up clinchers. The American tire company, US Royal (Rubber?) made a tubeless tubular that was used by racers for training and some sport riders. We called these tires US Mules. Punctures were easily repaired with a little rubber band injector. These rubber band repairs often failed at the worst times, however they got easier to repair as time went on and the hole got larger. It is of interest to me that a company in the Czech Republic has come up with the TUFO line of tubeless tubular tires. One model has a beaded rubber rim mounting system that enables them to be mounted on clincher rims. They also offer this same tire for mounting on a conventional tubular rim. A “tubular rim” is a rim that is designed to mount tubular tires. It may be hollow but that is not what I am referring to. See:
http://www.tufo.com

My Shwinn Varsity in the late 60s had steel rims and at that time if you were in junior high the only bike to have was a Varsity which meant there were millions on the road. Heavy as a tank and 26" wheels, steel everything but keen metallic colors. There were snobs at school whose parents popped for a Continental and a few even had Paramounts but we regarded them as sissies. Those that had Peugots and Gitanes were often chess club members and didn't figure in. I've been riding since then (not on my Varsity) and I've never heard the term tubular refer to anything but sew up tires and the rims to accomodate them.

I rode tubulars for about 10 years and loved them. After retiring from racing in 1992, clinchers were nearing the performance of tubulars and were cheaper so I switched to them.

Now, about flats. Flats on the road were changed by ripping off the flat tubular and stretching on a pre-glued spare. It took less than 3 minutes and was safe enough to ride on unless you tried to take corners at high speeds. When I got home, I'd remove the tire and glue it on properly. Then the flatted tubular had to be repaired (or thrown away) which was a real pain.

Now, about rims. Like tires, tubular rims were very durable and light. I don't know how the perception ever came about that tubular rims or tires were delicate but they weren't.

Now, about performance. Tubulars were, and I'm sure good ones still are, the greatest thing to ride on since sliced bread. The cornering ability is tremendous and rolling resistance is small. Acceleration is great.

The downside to tubulars is the high cost for good ones and maintenance. Ever re-glue tubulars in a motel room the night before a race? It ain't pretty. ;)