Advocacy & Safety - Portland:Red Light Camera Nabs 226 vehicles in First Day of Operation

I never said otherwise. I do, however, dispute that most cyclists are law abiding. Utter claptrap.

So do cyclists.

Most cyclists do break laws. Just like most motorists. Two wrongs don't make a right, but...

Any and every time that you hear some motorist whining about cyclists not obeying the law, please point out that motorists (1) break laws all the time every day just like cyclists (2) kill more Americans every month than Al-Quaida got in 9/11.

(2) is related to (1), because the vast majority of these collisions would be preventable if people stopped driving like JAMs.

Whats more noticeable?

Ask yourself this......your watching a major intersection.

What pisses you off more, people blasting through 8 seconds into a red light or those going 35 mph in a 30 on the green light.

Give me a break. You just want to disobey all rules but still think you have some "right" to the road.

No, I tend to not disobey the rules... but frankly I am darn tired of motorists holding up their "issues" about cyclists, while failing to deal with their own. Funny thing is that if we all tried, the roads would be a lot friendlier for all of us.

What I notice is that when I drive, I drive at or below the speed limit and I am often passed by others... others that likely as not may be of the many that are pointing fingers at cyclists and are making noise about "taxes, licenses, not owning the road and scofflaw law breakers..." yet they never look in the mirror.

I'm one of the cyclists that "doesn't stand out..." except for the situations where motorists chose to honk at me on deserted sections of road on quiet Sunday mornings... then I hope that you remember me and the lecture I give. ;)

Nah, I stopped running lights and signs years and years ago. If you see me "run" a light, it's cause the darn thing doesn't sense me, and I waited long enough.

Most cyclists do break laws. Just like most motorists. Two wrongs don't make a right, but...

Any and every time that you hear some motorist whining about cyclists not obeying the law, please point out that motorists (1) break laws all the time every day just like cyclists (2) kill more Americans every month than Al-Quaida got in 9/11.

(2) is related to (1), because the vast majority of these collisions would be preventable if people stopped driving like JAMs.I don't disagree, but if JABS were behind the wheel, the death toll would be far higher.

Pretty much all drivers are scofflaw. They speed and tailgate and do basically what they think they can get away with, without crashing or getting too many tickets.

So you guys actually think that as many cars as bikes run stop signs and lights?

I cant remember ever seeing a motorists pull up to a red light, look around and then gun it through. I dont think I have ever seen that in my life.

Oh, but I have. Several times, once I was even in the passenger seat.

I've never seen the Eiffel in person, so it must not exist....
BTW, how many bicycles have you seen breaking the speed limits lately - or parked illegally?

Course that doesn't make it any more "smart" for anybody to run red lights, but I figured I'd just offer some of my own observations.

If scofflaw cyclists were behind the wheel, it would be more like 4.2 million per year.


:rolleyes:

No, I tend to not disobey the rules... but frankly I am darn tired of motorists holding up their "issues" about cyclists, while failing to deal with their own.You say that as if cyclists don't do the exact same thing.

Funny thing is that if we all tried, the roads would be a lot friendlier for all of us.Absolutely. And the first step is for EVERYBODY on the road to stop pointing fingers and to stop making excuses.

:rolleyes:Well, I didn't think it would be as high as 42 million, so I kept it on the conservative side...

So those of you who run stop signs and stop lights answer me this....

When I'm talking to a group of motorists and explaining to them how the overtaking vehicle has all the responsibility to do so safely, that they must give at least 3 feet of space when passing and that they should not pass and then make an immediate right. Then some older person asks me why if bicycles are supposedly vehicles then why do most of them run stop signs and some ride on the sidewalk.

What should I say? After talking to some of you I think you would say, "Shut the F$@! up you old CAGER you killed 43,000 people last year"

I'm sure as heck not going to say that cyclists have no responsibilities. IN fact I say that any cyclist who runs a stop sign or stop light should be stopped and ticketed.

So those of you who run stop signs and stop lights answer me this....

When I'm talking to a group of motorists and explaining to them how the overtaking vehicle has all the responsibility to do so safely, that they must give at least 3 feet of space when passing and that they should not pass and then make an immediate right. Then some older person asks me why if bicycles are supposedly vehicles then why do most of them run stop signs and some ride on the sidewalk.

Number one, tell them to look in a dictionary as to what defines a vehicle. Number two, tell them cops are too lazy to bother pulling over a bicycle. (actually I've never figured it out if they're just too lazy, or they they think it'll make them look like a dork pulling a bicycle over to the curb).

Gosmsgo,

You should say that many cyclists disobey the law just as many motorists do. The appropriate response as a driver is to sit back, drive safely, and try not to run anyone over.

What you dont get is that if you claim to have a "right" to be on the road then you should not break the rules at every chance you get.

Yes, some cars break the rules but not as many as there are bicyclists and no one is fighting to get cars banned either.

Gosmsgo,

You should say that many cyclists disobey the law just as many motorists do. The appropriate response as a driver is to sit back, drive safely, and try not to run anyone over.

My response is the correct one. Bikes should be punished the same way the driver of a ford expedition would be punished for driving on the wrong side of the road, driving at night without lights or blowing a stop sign at 20 mph.

the driver of a ford expedition would be punished for driving on the wrong side of the road, driving at night without lights or blowing a stop sign at 20 mph.I wonder what would happen if most drivers did that?

What you dont get is that if you claim to have a "right" to be on the road then you should not break the rules at every chance you get.

Yes, some cars break the rules but not as many as there are bicyclists and no one is fighting to get cars banned either.

I don't think that's a statement that can be proven with any existing data.
Technically, I should point out that in actuality cyclists have more of a "right" to the road than motorists. This is because it is not a "right" to have a driver's license - it is a privilege. Some people (but not nearly as many as really should) get this privilege revoked for some reason or another, and no longer have a driver's liscense. That is, they no longer have the "right" to operate a motor vehicle on the streets.
I've yet to hear of anybody getting their bicycling license revoked.

I really wouldn't mind if the cops cracked down on cyclists disobeying the law IF they also cracked down on motorists. By that, I mean, ticket everyone who is speeding and tailgating. This could be automated with cameras that were moved around periodically.

You are probably suggesting some crackdown on cyclists and let the motorists keep on rolling. That is selective prosecution (or punishment).

You say that as if cyclists don't do the exact same thing.

Take a look at the public relations issues that typically get thrown around... and ask yourself when was the last time you heard a talk show host raise the issues of cycling before a motoring public.

Yeah cyclists whine... usually to other cyclists. Motorists however point fingers at us, while not dealing with their own problems. The classic issue is that cyclists "delay traffic..." right.



Absolutely. And the first step is for EVERYBODY on the road to stop pointing fingers and to stop making excuses.

True. Drive friendly... Cycle friendly.

This indicator is just that, an indicator. The speed camera itself is at the light ahead, but new law is in place that speed camera must give a pre-warning of driver speed of specific distance before the speed camera (400yrds?) so they 'know' and have opportunity to slow to 11mph or less over SL to avoid a ticket.

That's just ********.

Then you should contact your state legislature about making cyclists exempt for that law. Until then you are making things much, much worse for yourself. The average motorists just sees you as some jackass out screwing around on the roads. You obviously do not think of yourself as a vehicle so I would be inclined to agree with them.

I suppose lights make you a dork too, right?1. Laws are phased out by lack of enforcement. That's the American way. Sodomy is still against the law in many states, but you don't see me calling my legislator.

2. You're making it very hard for me to abide by my "no-name-calling" rule. If there are no other vehicles present, exactly who will be thinking that I am some "jackass", & exactly how would someone collide with a non-present vehicle?

3. I am not a vehicle. I am a person operating one.

4. Stop supposing. I use lights. Unlike stopping at empty stop signs, operating with lights at night is established by statistics as improving your safety greatly.

Motorists however point fingers at us, while not dealing with their own problems.Which is exactly what cyclists do.

Human behavior?

You claim to be a vehicle but you refuse to obey the rules of the road. My only hope is that you are ticketed repeatedly.

Would you complain if you were ticketed for riding how you claim to ride?

No I would not complain if I were ticketed. In fact, I'm willing to bet that if I were fined as often as a motorist would be then I would still end up paying less than a motorist who doesn't get fined at all (with all the additional taxes motorists pay). I don't think this is a coincidence. Motorists are a much bigger threat and the laws reflect that.

The law does not require me to be licensed to ride a bicycle because it recognizes that I don't have to bear the same responsibility as the driver of a motorized vehicle.

So those of you who run stop signs and stop lights answer me this....

When I'm talking to a group of motorists and explaining to them how the overtaking vehicle has all the responsibility to do so safely, that they must give at least 3 feet of space when passing and that they should not pass and then make an immediate right. Then some older person asks me why if bicycles are supposedly vehicles then why do most of them run stop signs and some ride on the sidewalk.

What should I say? After talking to some of you I think you would say, "Shut the F$@! up you old CAGER you killed 43,000 people last year"

I'm sure as heck not going to say that cyclists have no responsibilities. IN fact I say that any cyclist who runs a stop sign or stop light should be stopped and ticketed.

Tell them that bicycles are much safer vehicles than motorized vehicles. Therefore the penalties faced by cyclists are not as severe as those faced by motorists. The cyclists, naturally, take advantage of this legal upper hand just as anyone would.

I agree that cyclists that break the law should be ticketed, as should motorists. However, this is not reality, and I suspect that if it were reality then we would see more lax traffic laws across the board. Nevertheless, the fact still remains that even if law enforcement were 100%, there would still be a higher percentage of cyclists breaking the law than motorists because motorists are subject to more penalties than cyclists, as they should be.

Some cyclists???

I have never seen a cyclists that was not with me stop at a stop sign.


I have seen one cyclists other than me stop at a stop sign. Maybe I saw you?

That's just ********.
Actually I correct myself, the pre-warning of actual speed is not state law and probably is not municipal law either. The state law is that two warning signs must be given before a speed camera enforcement zone to give ample distance for driver to slow to legal speed. Signs must be yellow and one must be at minimum 300yrds before enforcement zone.

However in practice, one of these warning signs now displays actual speed. The reasoning is that speed zones are not intended to create tickets, but to slow people down. Here are news story details:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/92924

Al

I really wouldn't mind if the cops cracked down on cyclists disobeying the law IF they also cracked down on motorists. By that, I mean, ticket everyone who is speeding and tailgating. This could be automated with cameras that were moved around periodically.

You are probably suggesting some crackdown on cyclists and let the motorists keep on rolling. That is selective prosecution (or punishment).

You cant stop every single person who is breaking the law but I have seen a police officer sitting along a street watching for traffic violations. A bicycle comes by without lights AND runs the stop sign and the cop does nothing. I stop to ask the police officer if she knows that its against the law to ride a bike at night without lights. She responds that she does not know but I should not worry because I have lights.

She responds that she does not know but I should not worry because I have lights.
In other words, MYOFB

Al

astute comment from BikePortland.org:

It appears to me that riding safely and riding legally are not one in the same.

If Brett had taken the lane on Interstate or the young woman had seen a gap and run the red on W. Burnside, they would both be alive. They were riding legally, and are both dead.

J-walking is the safest way across the street...no presumption of right of way and heightened awareness of risk. Bicyclists may be better off running red lights rather than waiting around for the green and gettin slammed or worse.

Laws are nice, but they do not rule the road; its more like wits and luck are in charge. Police are no help; only the laws of physics rule, and the bicyclist almost always loses. Trust no motorist.

Actually I correct myself, the pre-warning of actual speed is not state law and probably is not municipal law either. The state law is that two warning signs must be given before a speed camera enforcement zone to give ample distance for driver to slow to legal speed. Signs must be yellow and one must be at minimum 300yrds before enforcement zone.

However in practice, one of these warning signs now displays actual speed. The reasoning is that speed zones are not intended to create tickets, but to slow people down. Here are news story details:
http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/92924

Al

That's even more ********.

I stop to ask the police officer if she knows that its against the law to ride a bike at night without lights. She responds that she does not know but I should not worry because I have lights.


That's probably the response I might get from one of our sheriff's deputies, but a bicyclist without a headlamp at night, running a stop sign to boot, would be damned if spotted by a city or highway patrol officer.

astute comment from BikePortland.org:

It appears to me that riding safely and riding legally are not one in the same.
If Brett had taken the lane on Interstate or the young woman had seen a gap and run the red on W. Burnside, they would both be alive. They were riding legally, and are both dead.
J-walking is the safest way across the street...no presumption of right of way and heightened awareness of risk. Bicyclists may be better off running red lights rather than waiting around for the green and gettin slammed or worse.
Laws are nice, but they do not rule the road; its more like wits and luck are in charge. Police are no help; only the laws of physics rule, and the bicyclist almost always loses. Trust no motorist.

1. I always take the law: Right as practible, with one of several exceptions including: to avoid fixed or moving object, to mean that if another vehicle is present that will be a fixed or moving hazard, I can legally move left to avoid the hazard. That's not a legal interpretation, I know, but it is solid to me. These cyclists may have been riding legally, but they did not have to ride illegally to help avoid the situation.

2. Do not mix up j-walking with the safety difference between marked and unmarked crosswalks. Unmarked crosswalks are statistically significantly safer than marked ones. But I can not see how j-walking can be safer than using an unmarked crosswalk while following the pedestrian laws and common sense of using such a crosswalk, which would be the same common sense as used j-walking. j-walking may be more convenient, taking a gap when one available instead of walking to a marked or unmarked crosswalk, then waiting for a gap longer than desired and responding by taking undue risk.

3. Is there any evidence that law abiding bicyclists who stop are more likely to be injured/killed that those who run red lights? That would surprise me greatly. I can see the fear of a rear end collision helping justify running a light.

Al

So you guys actually think that as many cars as bikes run stop signs and lights?

I cant remember ever seeing a motorists pull up to a red light, look around and then gun it through. I dont think I have ever seen that in my life. I see it everyday with bikers.

Here, they just gun it through at full speed sometimes with horns blasting.

astute comment from BikePortland.org:To be generous, poor reasoning on the poster's part re: the mutually exclusive relationship between riding legally and riding safely.

I'm not surprised.

So you guys actually think that as many cars as bikes run stop signs and lights?

I cant remember ever seeing a motorists pull up to a red light, look around and then gun it through. I dont think I have ever seen that in my life. I see it everyday with bikers.

:roflmao: I've seen it. Saw a van get pulled over for it and nearly got hit by a car doing it another time.

I can't tell you how many times a day I see cars roll through stop signs... or red lights. *shivers* It's very normal to see 2 or 3 (Sometimes MORE) cars trying to squeeze through at the end of a light...

Sat and watched as cross traffic at one light tied up the intersection for two light cycles by pulling into the intersection on the yellow light... They sat in the middle of the intersection through their red light... staring straight ahead and pretending not to notice that they were blocking the cross traffic from proceeding on their green light.

Heading downhill in the middle of the lane, doing 35 mph in a 30 mph zone and get passed with less than 6" of clearance.

Do I need to go on?

don't worry, I'm just trolling all the 'law is for your benefit' people. Get real, the law isn't in your favor when riding legally gets you killed and the police think their mission is to selectively enforce the law in favor of motorists.

without even trying I routinely see half a dozen motorists (including TriMet bus drivers) run red lights downtown in any given 15 minute period. I don't even count the number of motorists I see violating pedestrians' right of way in crosswalks anymore.

astute comment from BikePortland.org:

Its only dangerous when you stop on the right side of a possibly right turning car/truck.

Thats the problem with portlands bike lanes. Ask the dumbasses at the city of portland if they would design a possible straight thru lane for motorized traffic on the right side of a possible right turn lane.

They would not even dream of doing something that stupid and the blood of those two people are on the traffic engineers hands. The same thing could have happened if at the same time the cyclists was about to run the light the light turned green and the truck turned right.

Its filtering, in a bike lane or not, that is to blame for those deaths because there is no way that a driver of a large truck can see what is coming right alongside their truck. So unless you want to ban semi's, concrete trucks, trash trucks and dump trucks than you should stop riding in those bike lanes near intersections.

:roflmao: I've seen it. Saw a van get pulled over for it and nearly got hit by a car doing it another time.

I can't tell you how many times a day I see cars roll through stop signs... or red lights. *shivers* It's very normal to see 2 or 3 (Sometimes MORE) cars trying to squeeze through at the end of a light...

Sat and watched as cross traffic at one light tied up the intersection for two light cycles by pulling into the intersection on the yellow light... They sat in the middle of the intersection through their red light... staring straight ahead and pretending not to notice that they were blocking the cross traffic from proceeding on their green light.

Heading downhill in the middle of the lane, doing 35 mph in a 30 mph zone and get passed with less than 6" of clearance.

Do I need to go on?


If you were going the speed limit then you should have been taking the lane.......opps that just more john forester foolishness that could have prevented you from getting passed with only "6 inches of room."

If you were going the speed limit then you should have been taking the lane.......opps that just more john forester foolishness that could have prevented you from getting passed with only "6 inches of room."

*scratches his head* I'm trying to figure out if you missed the 'middle of the lane' or if you're just making fun of the VC'ers ....

without even trying I routinely see half a dozen motorists (including TriMet bus drivers) run red lights downtown in any given 15 minute period.

Bus drivers can be some of the worst... I can understand that they're driving huge buses.... but damn. Take that into consideration when you're approaching a light that's been green for a while... if you don't slow down, you can't safely stop if the light turns yellow... but that's their excuse for running the light... There was no way I could safely stop in time.

While we're on the topic of lights... my favorite is a few blocks from my house. The light will change for a cyclist, so I wait in the straight through lane for the light to change. I start moving as soon as the light turns green, and if I'm REALLY hauling I can make it most of the way across the intersection before it turns red. My wife can make it about half way across. And then, of course, the cars are honking at us for 'running' the light. ;)

*scratches his head* I'm trying to figure out if you missed the 'middle of the lane' or if you're just making fun of the VC'ers ....

missed it.

and the actual speed of the motorists and the cyclists running the stop sign will be almost the same - 5 to 10 mph. What's your point again?

:rolleyes:

I actually tried slowing down to look and going through a stop sign right next to a car that did a "bump & go". I slowed down and took more time to look than they did. They still beat me to and through the intersection.

One factor that drivers need to check on with that stop light camera system is to make sure the company that set it up did not shorten the length of time that the light is yellow. That's what they have discovered in every city so far in my area. It was shortened to below the state standard, just to cause more fines.

You cant stop every single person who is breaking the law but I have seen a police officer sitting along a street watching for traffic violations. A bicycle comes by without lights AND runs the stop sign and the cop does nothing. I stop to ask the police officer if she knows that its against the law to ride a bike at night without lights. She responds that she does not know but I should not worry because I have lights.
You need to toke.

Have you ever heard of the idea "live and let live". Are you out taking pictures of illegal immigrants to turn in to the INS? Better call the IRS, the Amish aren't paying their taxes... Oh, by the way, it's also a federal crime to use a computer to send or receive "lewd pictures". Are you sure that if we check your browser history we won't find a nipple or a tushy in there, and have to report you to the AG to pursue a 5 year sentence?

Don't get me wrong, I don't care if the police ticket someone for not having lights, a bell, or running a stop sign. You should have lights, and you shouldn't run a stop sign when other vehicles are present. But you seriously need to get a grip. It's rightfully a low priority for most cops. The odds of you hurting someone else are slim.

without even trying I routinely see half a dozen motorists (including TriMet bus drivers) run red lights downtown in any given 15 minute period. I don't even count the number of motorists I see violating pedestrians' right of way in crosswalks anymore.
So I was at this workshop last night for women about winter riding and the BTA person who helped present the information said that only 20% of motorists and 12% of cyclists make full, legal stops at stop signs. She was only referring to stop signs, not red lights. Do you know where those numbers come from and/or if they refer just to Portland?

That's funny as heck. Will people still insist that motorists always obey the rules? Most drivers speed most of the time, run reds while trying to 'squeeze a lemon,' roll stops, and fail to signal properly.
I wonder how many were going through right after the light changed to red and how many just stopped, checked around, and blatantly ran the red.

Here in the Beehive State this is known as a "discretionary red light" - stopping properly at a red light, and then, in the absence of any cross traffic, accelerating through the intersection.

I think the locals here got the idea from the cops, for whom this approach is pretty routine.

I don't disagree, but if JABS were behind the wheel, the death toll would be far higher.

Do you really believe most cyclists don't drive???

Do you really believe most cyclists don't drive???Good point. No, I think most cyclists drive, although in Portland, there is a high percentage of cyclists who don't drive, and who apparently have never driven. Based on my observations of their current application of the rules of the road, I think that transferring their riding practices to driving would raise the death rates significantly.

And for those JABs who also drive, well, they probably put on a JAM hat when they're behind the wheel.

Based on my observations of their current application of the rules of the road, I think that transferring their riding practices to driving would raise the death rates significantly.
That sounds reasonable. Of course a cyclist would drive a car just like they ride their bikes. I bet they would drive on sidewalks, against traffic and everything! I bet they would try to take their cars off some sweet plywood jumps.

Somebody please stop the insanity.

That sounds reasonable. Of course a cyclist would drive a car just like they ride their bikes. I bet they would drive on sidewalks, against traffic and everything! I bet they would try to take their cars off some sweet plywood jumps.

Somebody please stop the insanity.You forgot no headlights or taillights, left turns from the far right lane across the path of the car to their left, cutting off everybody else's right of way, buzzing pedestrians and cyclists alike, and of course, the ubiquitous running red lights without slowing or looking.

No evidence or reason to believe they wouldn't drive like that. None at all.

Yes, some cars break the rules but not as many as there are bicyclists and no one is fighting to get cars banned either.

I offered this to a motorist once, and it stopped them cold, just like it should you with your belief about "some" cars breaking the rules. Ask them if they were followed for one week by the police without them knowing it, and at the end of the week were written a traffic citation for each and every one of their traffic violations, everything in the vehicle code, and all points were assigned on the spot at the end of the week, would they still have their driver's license after the officer even finished with the first day of violations?


Remind them that when a cyclist runs a stop sign or stop light and gets hit, it's not the fault of the motorist. The drivers are only deflecting the issue when they bring up something that is not involved in a collision.

You forgot no headlights or taillights, left turns from the far right lane across the path of the car to their left, cutting off everybody else's right of way, buzzing pedestrians and cyclists alike, and of course, the ubiquitous running red lights without slowing or looking.



I see actual motorists executing ALL these *hypothetical* maneuvers daily or at least weekly.

They must all be cyclists driving cars, right?

everybody just needs to slow down, pay attention, be patient, lighten up a bit, stop trying to blame everyone else, and take a little more personal responsibility; why is that so hard for 'Merkins to get?

I see actual motorists executing ALL these *hypothetical* maneuvers daily or at least weekly.

They must all be cyclists driving cars, right?Maybe. Maybe not. But a few points.

1) Based on your previous posts, the driving culture in Toronto appears to be quite a bit different than the driving culture in Portland.

2) The maneuvers aren't "hypothetical," they're real, observed maneuvers.

3) The percentage of cyclists who execute these maneuvers is much, much higher, in Portland at least, than the percentage of drivers who do the same.

4) There's no evidence to suggest or reason to believe that the people executing these real world maneuvers on their bikes will change their behavior and drive a motor vehicle safely and in observance of the law.