Portland, Oregon. The first-day practice run of a new red light camera at Southwest 4th and Jefferson last week caught 226 of 3,011 vehicles (that's 7.5%). It went online for real this morning for northbound traffic. The fine is $245.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/10/lookout_for_the_new_downtown_p.html

Portland, Oregon. The first-day practice run of a new red light camera at Southwest 4th and Jefferson last week caught 226 of 3,011 vehicles (that's 7.5%). It went online for real this morning for northbound traffic. The fine is $245.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/10/lookout_for_the_new_downtown_p.html

Oh, but I thought it was only those nasty bicycle riders that ran red lights... :rolleyes:

Oh, but I thought it was only those nasty bicycle riders that ran red lights... :rolleyes:

No, but if it caught cyclists it would probably be 60% and at stop signs it would be 98%.

Portland, Oregon. The first-day practice run of a new red light camera at Southwest 4th and Jefferson last week caught 226 of 3,011 vehicles (that's 7.5%). It went online for real this morning for northbound traffic. The fine is $245.

http://blog.oregonlive.com/breakingnews/2007/10/lookout_for_the_new_downtown_p.html

That's real funny. I thought it was bicycles running those red lights.

You don't suppose, that a bicyclist might by chance know in advance that 7.5% of cars run the red lights?
I have heard a lot of complaints lately that bicycles run red lights.
But if one is driving a bicycle and he/she stops for a red light, wouldn't the chance of getting hit from behind by a car be about 7.5%? With 7.5% of motorists running the red light?
I can look left and right, but the car behind me is in my "blind spot".

That's funny as heck. Will people still insist that motorists always obey the rules? Most drivers speed most of the time, run reds while trying to 'squeeze a lemon,' roll stops, and fail to signal properly.
I wonder how many were going through right after the light changed to red and how many just stopped, checked around, and blatantly ran the red.

So you guys actually think that as many cars as bikes run stop signs and lights?

I cant remember ever seeing a motorists pull up to a red light, look around and then gun it through. I dont think I have ever seen that in my life. I see it everyday with bikers.

So you guys actually think that as many cars as bikes run stop signs and lights?

I cant remember ever seeing a motorists pull up to a red light, look around and then gun it through. I dont think I have ever seen that in my life. I see it everyday with bikers.

Nope, but I have seen motorists just run right through without even a pause.

And I certainly have seen motorists treat stop signs just like some cyclists treat 'em.

Nope, but I have seen motorists just run right through without even a pause.

And I certainly have seen motorists treat stop signs just like some cyclists treat 'em.

Some cyclists???

I have never seen a cyclists that was not with me stop at a stop sign.

I would guess that out of 100 bicyclists approaching a stop sign 99 would run it if noone was around.

Some cyclists???

I have never seen a cyclists that was not with me stop at a stop sign.

I would guess that out of 100 bicyclists approaching a stop sign 99 would run it if noone was around.

yeah, but there's always that one...

and if no one was around how would you know?

ha ha

I guess thats true.

And somewhere there is a motorists who never stops at stop signs, drives at night without their lights and approaches right lights, looks both ways and then guns it.

The difference is that those drivers would not have their licenses for long because motorists are pulled over and ticketed and cyclists can usually do about anything without any fear of law enforcement.

In Idaho cyclists can legally treat stop signs as yield signs.


MOTOR VEHICLES
CHAPTER 7
PEDESTRIANS AND BICYCLES
49-720. STOPPING -- TURN AND STOP SIGNALS. (1) A person operating a
bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a stop sign shall slow down and,
if required for safety, stop before entering the intersection. After slowing
to a reasonable speed or stopping, the person shall yield the right-of-way to
any vehicle in the intersection or approaching on another highway so closely
as to constitute an immediate hazard during the time the person is moving
across or within the intersection or junction of highways, except that a
person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if
required, may cautiously make a turn or proceed through the intersection
without stopping.
(2) A person operating a bicycle or human-powered vehicle approaching a
steady red traffic control light shall stop before entering the intersection
and shall yield to all other traffic. Once the person has yielded, he may
proceed through the steady red light with caution. Provided however, that a
person after slowing to a reasonable speed and yielding the right-of-way if
required, may cautiously make a right-hand turn. A left-hand turn onto a
one-way highway may be made on a red light after stopping and yielding to
other traffic.
(3) A person riding a bicycle shall comply with the provisions of section
49-643, Idaho Code.
(4) A signal of intention to turn right or left shall be given during not
less than the last one hundred (100) feet traveled by the bicycle before
turning, provided that a signal by hand and arm need not be given if the hand
is needed in the control or operation of the bicycle.

My point is that people in cars break rules all day long, but the drivers excuse their own bad behavior. When the see a guy on a bike breaking a different rule, they can't see it for what it is. They think that the rule that the cyclist broke was very important, but it was somehow OK that the driver was tailgating, speeding, failing to signal, or just driving like a moron.

I'm guessing that the vast majority of those caught on the camera were trying to make the yellow, and didn't make it. That doesn't change the fact that they ran the red. Nearly 10%. The article didn't specify whether that was 7.5% of all cars going through or just of the cars that got to the intersection when it was red.
I wonder what the number would be if it was percent of cars that had a choice (that is, the light was red, and no one was in front of them blocking the way.).

Lets just use our imaginations for a minute.

I hope you can open your eyes for a while to see the truth.

If you hide in a bush in a local 4-way stop and watched 100 cyclists throughout the day how many of those cyclists would come to a complete stop (not in ohio Im tired of hearing that)?

I would say that maybe 1 would in my town. I will wait for your reply to that question.

You'd have to wait a few days to get a hundred cyclists around here, but I don't think any of them would come to a complete stop if no opposing traffic was present.

I think roughly zero percent of other road users would stop too. In the last year, I have never seen a car come to a complete stop at a stop sign without opposing traffic present. Zero.

Your town may be different, I suppose, I'll take your word for it.

You'd have to wait a few days to get a hundred cyclists around here, but I don't think any of them would come to a complete stop if no opposing traffic was present.

I think roughly zero percent of other road users would stop too. In the last year, I have never seen a car come to a complete stop at a stop sign without opposing traffic present. Zero.

Your town may be different, I suppose, I'll take your word for it.

okay, Who would slow down more? Most cars slow down to barely moving.....most bikes around here dont even stop pedalling.

So answer me that and then we can continue here

"In [Arizona in] 2005, over 8,349 crashes which killed 80 people and injured over 7,494 were caused when a driver disregarded a red light or stop sign. "

That reflects a death rate that is higher by nearly 2x relative to any other state.

Al

Do you mean who would slow down more, or who would reach a slower speed?

answer me that and we can continue here

No, but if it caught cyclists it would probably be 60% and at stop signs it would be 98%.Not in downtown Portland.

There, it's more like 80-85% of cyclists who run red lights. But let's wag our fingers at those 7.5% of motorists who do the same. That's TRUE cycling advocacy-- US AGAINST THEM!

I would guess that out of 100 bicyclists approaching a stop sign 99 would run it if no one was around.
I would venture to say that, in those circumstances, bicyclist number 100 is a dork.

Recklessly flying through stop signs and red lights is one thing, but there is no safety-related reason for a cyclist to come to a complete stop at a stop sign if it is clear there is no other traffic present. Unlike a car, a bicycle has much greater visibility (significantly reducing the chance of a cyclist not seeing another party) and maneuverability (if the cyclist does overlook someone, they have much greater chance of avoiding a collision inside the intersection) and much lower mass (in case of collision, would cause much less damage.)

Not in downtown Portland.

There, it's more like 80-85% of cyclists who run red lights. But let's wag our fingers at those 7.5% of motorists who do the same. That's TRUE cycling advocacy-- US AGAINST THEM!


ha ha

How would a 500 dollar ticket and a 2 month campaign work? It would be good for cyling and the city could probably build a new school or something!!!

I would venture to say that, in those circumstances, bicyclist number 100 is a dork.

Recklessly flying through stop signs and red lights is one thing, but there is no safety-related reason for a cyclist to come to a complete stop at a stop sign if it is clear there is no other traffic present. Unlike a car, a bicycle has much greater visibility (significantly reducing the chance of a cyclist not seeing another party) and maneuverability (if the cyclist does overlook someone, they have much greater chance of avoiding a collision inside the intersection) and much lower mass (in case of collision, would cause much less damage.)

Then you should contact your state legislature about making cyclists exempt for that law. Until then you are making things much, much worse for yourself. The average motorists just sees you as some jackass out screwing around on the roads. You obviously do not think of yourself as a vehicle so I would be inclined to agree with them.

I suppose lights make you a dork too, right?

Lets just use our imaginations for a minute.

I hope you can open your eyes for a while to see the truth.

If you hide in a bush in a local 4-way stop and watched 100 cyclists throughout the day how many of those cyclists would come to a complete stop (not in ohio Im tired of hearing that)?

I would say that maybe 1 would in my town. I will wait for your reply to that question.
and if you do a side-by-side comparison with the motorists at the same location, none of the motorists will come to a full stop either, so what's your point again?

:rolleyes:

okay, Who would slow down more? Most cars slow down to barely moving.....most bikes around here dont even stop pedalling.

So answer me that and then we can continue here

and the actual speed of the motorists and the cyclists running the stop sign will be almost the same - 5 to 10 mph. What's your point again?

:rolleyes:

Not in downtown Portland.

There, it's more like 80-85% of cyclists who run red lights. But let's wag our fingers at those 7.5% of motorists who do the same. That's TRUE cycling advocacy-- US AGAINST THEM!
I seriously doubt it, most cyclists I see in downtown Portland wait for the lights

and the actual speed of the motorists and the cyclists running the stop sign will be almost the same - 5 to 10 mph. What's your point again?

:rolleyes:

wow - your town must be all uphill with a constant head wind if your averaging cycling speed is 5-10 mph

ha ha

My point is that around here virtually all the cars stop or get to within 1-2 mph of stopping and most bicyclists do not even stop pedalling.

Hardly the same thing.

Someone driving 31 in a 30 mph zone is technically speeding but its not as noticable as someone going 60 mph in a 30 zone.

Law bending cyclists are hardly the scourge they are accused of being. The only reason people bring these renegades up in conversation is because they are so relatively few that they stand out in your daily experience. If you sit and attentively watch traffic for awhile, you will see that a disproportionate majority of discourtesy, rage, endangerment, inattentiveness and law breaking behavior is from the common, average motorist. Unfortunately, because it is so common, most drivers are conditioned to it and thus desensitized to its impact and consequence.

Also, everyone seems to be able to rationalize their own inappropriate behavior behind the wheel of an auto for the sake of their convenience. e.g. Everyone else is clueless, but I'm a good driver. That speeding ticket was bogus. Photo-radar is bogus. Red light photo is bogus. I can talk on a cell and drive at the same time, but hardly anyone else is capable. It's safer to speed because you must keep up with the flow of traffic. I can jump across the impending yellow-to-red sequence because there's enough room and I'm in a hurry. Etc.

Many auto drivers are complacent and lax, but they get away with it and their driving ineptitude continues to degrade because the laziness and inattentiveness is rewarded - statistically, per individual, there is hardly ever a significant consequence such as a fatality or inflicted injury.

Don't let your perception fool you, cyclists running lights are not near as plentiful or as dangerous as the 226 x 365 days = 82,490 projected red light runners in autos across this ONE intersection in a year.

The difference is that those drivers would not have their licenses for long because motorists are pulled over and ticketed and cyclists can usually do about anything without any fear of law enforcement.

It's not just the enforcement, but the laws themselves. If motorists weren't at risk of losing their driving privileges and/or having their mandatory insurance rates jacked then they would respect moving violations like they respect parking violations.

Come to think of it, the one thing that is sometimes enforced when it comes to cyclists is parking violations and cyclists don't respect parking violations either.

Here are my observations locally,
Stop signs are mostly, but not only, on roads that are 25-30mph. These roads may cross 25-50mph roads.

Cyclist typically ride 10-30mph.
Cyclists at 4-way stops most often stop pedaling and coast thru, losing 5mph at most. This is independent if another vehicle is present, but if another is present and about to go, the cyclist will slow as needed to avoid hitting them or being hit.
Cyclists at singular direction stops and going straight most often slow to 5-15mph regardless of initial speed. If sightlines are great, faster cyclists may slow to 20mph, but those already going 20mph will slow to 15-18mph.
If making a right turn cyclist will look left and go thru turn at their cornering ability speed.
In all cases if another vehicle is seen that will likely cause a collision, the cyclist will stop.

Motorist are typically going 25-40mph.
At four way stops when another vehicle is present, they stop, usually fully to 0mph
At four way stops when no other vehicle is around they slow to 5-10mph.
At single direction stops if going straight they slow to 5mph. If turning right they slow to 5-15mph and only look over left shoulder. If a vehicle is present they stop.

Red light running (after stopping, not a just turned red which is very common) by cyclists and motorist is very rare due to high volumes and high speeds of x-traffic except very late at night when I am not around to observe.

Al

Law bending cyclists are hardly the scourge they are accused of being. The only reason people bring these renegades up in conversation is because they are so relatively few that they stand out in your daily experience.
:roflmao:

The vast majority of cyclists in downtown Portland run both red lights and stop signs. A significant number ride against traffic, without lights at night, on the sidewalk where it's expressly prohibited, etc.

They stand out because there are so many of them doing it, not because there are so few.

Then you should contact your state legislature about making cyclists exempt for that law. Until then you are making things much, much worse for yourself. The average motorists just sees you as some jackass out screwing around on the roads. You obviously do not think of yourself as a vehicle so I would be inclined to agree with them.

The average motorist wishes they could screw around on the roads like we can. They're just jealous.

Saying that we shouldn't break the traffic laws because the cagers don't like it is like saying that fabulously wealthy people shouldn't live lives of leisure because the middle class will think they're not productive members of society. That's the whole point. You gotta flaunt it! :)

The average motorist wishes they could screw around on the roads like we can. They're just jealous.

Saying that we shouldn't break the traffic laws because the cagers don't like it is like saying that fabulously wealthy people shouldn't live lives of leisure because the middle class will think they're not productive members of society. That's the whole point. You gotta flaunt it! :)

So your not a vehicle? What are you? Should you be banned from the roads? What makes you "better" than a car.

Why should a car respect you on the road? Why should they give you 3 feet of room or not turn right immediately after passing you?

Your just screwing around anyway

The average motorist wishes they could screw around on the roads like we can. They're just jealous.They can "screw around on the roads" like scofflaw cyclists do.

They're just more mature than that, and thankfully so.

If drivers drove the way cyclists ride, the streets would be slick red with blood.

Blue Order, read the rest of ChezJfrey's post. It is by far the best post in this thread.

The idea that motorists obey the law and cyclists don't is a myth. They just break different rules. You guys that harp on the cyclists are just falling into a trap. If you want to advocate for cyclists, then advocate that motorists start obeying the law and driving responsibly.
That is all that you need to do. If some whiny driver complains about cyclists breaking the law, just throw it right back at them. Those people need to be confronted with the truth about their own behavior.

I would venture to say that, in those circumstances, bicyclist number 100 is a dork.

Recklessly flying through stop signs and red lights is one thing, but there is no safety-related reason for a cyclist to come to a complete stop at a stop sign if it is clear there is no other traffic present. Unlike a car, a bicycle has much greater visibility (significantly reducing the chance of a cyclist not seeing another party) and maneuverability (if the cyclist does overlook someone, they have much greater chance of avoiding a collision inside the intersection) and much lower mass (in case of collision, would cause much less damage.)

:beer:

:roflmao:

The vast majority of cyclists in downtown Portland run both red lights and stop signs. A significant number ride against traffic, without lights at night, on the sidewalk where it's expressly prohibited, etc.

They stand out because there are so many of them doing it, not because there are so few.

You almost make my point...that's what YOU SEE and remember. I commute in Portland every day and most of the riders I see match me...lit like XMAS trees, packed panniers and packs, reflective, etc. That is what I SEE and remember. It's your perspective and opinion that MOST of the cyclists are running lights and it's my perspective and opinion that SOME of the cyclists are running lights.

Overall, I think that there are so relatively few cyclists (though Portland is proportionally high compared to most) that people take away their impression of the few they see and attribute that same behavior, broadly, to the entire cycling population.

Also, keep in mind that the law abiding cyclists are usually the ones nobody notices or remembers because they don't stand out, do they?

You almost make my point...that's what YOU SEE and remember. I commute in Portland every day and most of the riders I see match me...lit like XMAS trees, packed panniers and packs, reflective, etc.I'm in downtown Portland EVERY single day. MOST riders downtown are NOT lit up. Most commuters are, but most riders aren't.

That is what I SEE and remember. It's your perspective and opinion that MOST of the cyclists are running lightsNo, it's my direct observation. I can stand on almost any street corner downtown, and almost every cyclist will disregard the traffic control devices. That's not perception, it's observation. There's a difference.

A different point: Be careful making a head start from a stop light.

Cyclist right on red with minimal slow down:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cihI-o4PTXo

(hardly a concern to me, but just an example)

Al

Blue Order, read the rest of ChezJfrey's post. It is by far the best post in this thread.

The idea that motorists obey the law and cyclists don't is a myth. They just break different rules.I never said otherwise. I do, however, dispute that most cyclists are law abiding. Utter claptrap.

You guys that harp on the cyclists are just falling into a trap. If you want to advocate for cyclists, then advocate that motorists start obeying the law and driving responsibly.
That is all that you need to do. If some whiny driver complains about cyclists breaking the law, just throw it right back at them. Those people need to be confronted with the truth about their own behavior.So do cyclists.

Blue Order, read the rest of ChezJfrey's post. It is by far the best post in this thread.

The idea that motorists obey the law and cyclists don't is a myth. They just break different rules. You guys that harp on the cyclists are just falling into a trap. If you want to advocate for cyclists, then advocate that motorists start obeying the law and driving responsibly.
That is all that you need to do. If some whiny driver complains about cyclists breaking the law, just throw it right back at them. Those people need to be confronted with the truth about their own behavior.

wow-

You sure have some weird ideas about bicycle advocacy.

Its hard to claim your rights as a vehicle and then run every stop sign in town.

wow-

You sure have some weird ideas about bicycle advocacy.

Its hard to claim your rights as a vehicle and then run every stop sign in town.

While meanwhile those on 4 wheels break every speed limit in town... :rolleyes:

While meanwhile those on 4 wheels break every speed limit in town... :rolleyes:

Whats more noticeable?

Ask yourself this......your watching a major intersection.

What pisses you off more, people blasting through 8 seconds into a red light or those going 35 mph in a 30 on the green light.

Give me a break. You just want to disobey all rules but still think you have some "right" to the road.

While meanwhile those on 4 wheels break every speed limit in town... :rolleyes:You and the other apologists are missing the point. I'm not here to talk to motorists. I'm here to talk to cyclists. If I wanted to talk to motorists, I'd be on a motorist forum telling them to stop boasting about running cyclists off the road. Coming here and pointing fingers at all the bad motorists is NOT cycling advocacy. It's excuse making, and nothing more. Everything ChezJfrey said about motorists is absolutely true, but it is also absolutely true about cyclists. And because I'm advocating for cycling, I'm having a conversation about anti-cycling behavior with other cyclists.

So your not a vehicle? What are you?

I am a vehicle.

Should you be banned from the roads?

In my opinion, no, but some would, obviously, disagree.

What makes you "better" than a car.

I take up much less space, produce much less pollution (of all kinds), weigh much less, and go at a much slower speed. Subsequently I represent a much smaller threat than a car by almost any measure.

Why should a car respect you on the road? Why should they give you 3 feet of room or not turn right immediately after passing you?

Apart from common courtesy, I don't see any particular reason why they should respect me. However, they should give me 3 feet and not turn right immediately after passing me because if they kill me then they might find themselves behind bars, or, at the very least, have to live the rest of their lives with a guilty conscience.

They can "screw around on the roads" like scofflaw cyclists do.

They're just more mature than that, and thankfully so.

If drivers drove the way cyclists ride, the streets would be slick red with blood.

Exactly. They have to be more mature because they're in possession of deadly force. But they wish they could have as much fun as we do without risking innocent lives and serious legal trouble.

While meanwhile those on 4 wheels break every speed limit in town... :rolleyes:


I and a lot of other bicyclists in town would be as well if our engines had the excess power the motorists had. Mine still needs a lot more tuning.

I am a vehicle.Well, your bike is. But you only agree with that when it's convenient, right?

Exactly. They have to be more mature because they're in possession of deadly force.So is a bike, although less so.

While meanwhile those on 4 wheels break every speed limit in town... :rolleyes:

Consistenly.

I pass by this speed indicator every commute home on a 45mph road with an light controlled intersection ahead and several side driveways to shopping center before the light.

I rarely see it activated at a speed below 50mph by approaching cars. I've seen 68mph before.

http://optionnz.com/users/afs/070628-PM.3551speed0000b.jpg

This indicator is just that, an indicator. The speed camera itself is at the light ahead, but new law is in place that speed camera must give a pre-warning of driver speed of specific distance before the speed camera (400yrds?) so they 'know' and have opportunity to slow to 11mph or less over SL to avoid a ticket. Even with these pre-warnings tickets are common.

Al

So who is killing 42,000 people a year on America's roads???

Because it sure as hell isn't scofflaw cyclists!

I am a vehicle.



.


You claim to be a vehicle but you refuse to obey the rules of the road. My only hope is that you are ticketed repeatedly.

Would you complain if you were ticketed for riding how you claim to ride?

So who is killing 42,000 people a year on America's roads???

Because it sure as hell isn't scofflaw cyclists!If scofflaw cyclists were behind the wheel, it would be more like 4.2 million per year.