This is a repost of information I posted at the end of a long insurance thread. I am reposting it because it is really important that anyone living car free thinking about using Zipcar for those times they need a car understands the financial risks they may be taking by using Zipcar.
Anyone who is militantly opposed to the use of cars and doesn't go anywhere they can't reach by bike can probably disregard most of this as can anyone who has no assets.
There are a few relatively minor problems with Zip car and one huge problem.
The minor problems are
1) The car you reserved may become unavailable shortly before you pick it up.
2) When you pickup the car it is often dirty, damaged and with mechanical defects.
3) To ensure a car at the weekend you need to book weeks in advance and pay more than you would with a conventional rental agency.
I have been a member of Zipcar for three months and experianced problem 2 the only time I have actually gone through with a rental. Another time I attempted to rent I experianced problem 1 but I was able to switch to Hertz.
The major problem with Zipcar that most "Zipsters" are not aware of but need to be is their liability insurance policy (their policy is to provide no liability coverage beyond legally mandated minimums). The reason most people are not aware of the liabilty insurance problem is Zipcar doesn't go out of their way to draw attention to the issue. The legally mandated minimum liability coverages are alarmingly low in most states and Zipcar's policy provides coverage at the state level required in the state the accident occurs which could be lower than the state you picked the Zipcar up in. For example, pick up a Zipcar in Mahattan and drive it to Ikea in New Jersey and you will only be covered for only $5,000 worth of property damage while in NJ so if you rear end a BMW or Mercedes on the Turnpike you may find yourself writing a check to cover some of the damage (this has actually happened to Zipcar customers).
Zipcar would point out that other car rental companies (e.g. Hertz) provide the same basic liability coverage but those other companies offer supplemental liability coverage to their customers which will provide adequate levels of protection for most people. Most Hertz customers don't need the extra coverage because they have cars and are already covered by their own insurance policy. Zipcar however, markets itself as an alternative to car ownership for urban residents so many of its customers actually do need decent liability insurance which Zipcar does not offer.
If you don't own a car but do have assets and want to use Zipcar you will need a non-owners liability insurance policy. That will cost more than liability insurance for a car owner but should count as continous insurance coverage should you ever need to insure a car again. If you have significant assets (such as an apartment in Manhattan) you would probably want an umbrella policy on top of a non-owner auto policy. Geico just quoted me about $1000 a year for a $2 million umbrella policy combined with with a $300,000 non-owner auto policy ($1 million less in coverage only saved about $140 a year). Allstate (my current insurer) does not offer a non-owner auto policy.
Zipcar does have a couple of advantages over Hertz et al.
1) They rent out decent imported cars, if you rent from Hertz you could end up in a Ford Taurus or Chevy Areo.
2) You can pickup and drop off the car anytime of day or night. Hertz in Manhattan closes at 11pm, some places close even earlier.
pmseattle
10-27-07, 09:33 AM
This is interesting to know. I live in Seattle, don't have a car, and I am a member of Flexcar. I have been using the service for three years and have been satisfied with it - I have had zero problems. I don't use it very often, however. The cars are always where they are supposed to be, run well, and are reasonably clean. The insurance is another matter which I must admit I did not look into in great depth. I will look into it now. The Flexcar literature states that drivers are automatically covered, but I did not analyze the fine print to determine the extent of the coverage.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
adgrant
10-27-07, 10:22 AM
This is interesting to know. I live in Seattle, don't have a car, and I am a member of Flexcar. I have been using the service for three years and have been satisfied with it - I have had zero problems. I don't use it very often, however. The cars are always where they are supposed to be, run well, and are reasonably clean. The insurance is another matter which I must admit I did not look into in great depth. I will look into it now. The Flexcar literature states that drivers are automatically covered, but I did not analyze the fine print to determine the extent of the coverage.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
I believe that flex car does actually provide reasonable liability insurance. That would suggest that in cities where there is a choice, flex car would be the better one (if you don't have a non-owner policy of course).
East Hill
10-27-07, 10:40 AM
I believe that flex car does actually provide reasonable liability insurance. That would suggest that in cities where there is a choice, flex car would be the better one (if you don't have a non-owner policy of course).Although now flex car users in King County are going to get charged car rental tax, which will add around $1 to the current $10 hourly rate...
East Hill
Slow Train
10-27-07, 06:06 PM
The Flexcar literature states that drivers are automatically covered, but I did not analyze the fine print to determine the extent of the coverage.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
I too have never noticed these problems with Flexcar. When I joined 4 years ago here in DC I was told that the liability coverage was $1 million. Never saw it in writing though. We all would be wise to demand a written copy of the policy to be sure.
Mauriceloridans
10-28-07, 03:23 AM
The lowest liability limits for these times should be 25/50/25 which is higher than my state's minimum of 10/20/10.
The numbers mean: Bodily Injury per person / Bodily Injury per accident / property damage.
adgrant
10-28-07, 08:54 AM
The lowest liability limits for these times should be 25/50/25 which is higher than my state's minimum of 10/20/10.
The numbers mean: Bodily Injury per person / Bodily Injury per accident / property damage.
I would be uncomfortable with limits that low. 100/300/50 is more appropriate. If you have any real assets such as a house (and you have some equity left), a $1 million umbrella policy is cheap additional insurance.
jimisnowhere
10-28-07, 03:40 PM
My friend works for zip car and I don't think he's had anyone pay more than a 500 dollar deductible. But I think it did happen once when someone attempted to hide the damage, some statute in the insurance plan timed out and the driver got stuck with the bill, I don't really know for sure though. Also the road crew travels between cars by bike, part of training involves learning to cram a road bike into a Mini! Front wheel on!!
makeinu
10-28-07, 05:18 PM
Many credit cards provide additional insurance. Most of the time this insurance is secondary, meaning that it only applies if you don't have other insurance to cover it. As most Americans have car insurance, they can't take advantage of the insurance provided by the credit card. But if you're car free and without insurance then you're covered.
Shop around for credit card offers and see what they're offering in the fine print.
fat_bike_nut
10-28-07, 06:14 PM
I'm a new member of Flexcar in Seattle, joining under their JARC (Job Access...um, I forgot what the R and C stood for...) program. It's for people who are unemployed and actively searching for work, which is where I am at the moment, and it basically gives us lower rates for renting the cars, and the really low rate of $3/hour when renting them for interviews, job training, and related stuff :D
Although it took a really long time for me to receive my package (I had already gone to 2 job fairs and 1 interview after the day I filled out the application form without the benefit of using the program, plus I had 2 more interviews coming up a couple of days before the package finally arrived :mad:), I am still quite satisfied with the service. All the cars I reserved were at their spots, even when I arrived 30 minutes early to check them out. Ran well, didn't show any dents from previous use, etc. Sounds like Zipcar isn't so hot.
Anyhow, I don't see too much use in using Flexcar anymore, seeing as how I was forced to do without the JARC program's benefits for two whole weeks after having filled out the application for it.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-28-07, 08:59 PM
But if you're car free and without insurance then you're covered.
Shop around for credit card offers and see what they're offering in the fine print.
"Covered" for what?:rolleyes: Good idea to read what is really being offered, and not Internet chatter; the credit cards may offer a sliver of protection for collision damage to the rental car only and nothing else. Hardly the answer to the OP's issue and concern about personal liability for serious money in case of an accident involving injury and others' property.
BTW how does whatever collision coverage is offered by credit card companies for car rentals apply to Flexcar/Zipcar usage? Do Flexcar/Zipcar customers pay for their rentals with credit cards?
adgrant
10-28-07, 09:12 PM
My friend works for zip car and I don't think he's had anyone pay more than a 500 dollar deductible. But I think it did happen once when someone attempted to hide the damage, some statute in the insurance plan timed out and the driver got stuck with the bill, I don't really know for sure though. Also the road crew travels between cars by bike, part of training involves learning to cram a road bike into a Mini! Front wheel on!!
The 500 deductible applies to damage to the Zipcar, it has nothing to do with liability coverage. At least one "zipster" ended up owing about $15,000.
from http://www.felixsalmon.com/000612.html
"Zipcar has now confirmed that they do not provide any liability insurance beyond the minimum levels they're mandated to provide by the states in which they operate. In the case of my commenter Martin, that minimum was $5,000 – which meant that after he caused $19,255 of damage while driving a Zipcar, he was responsible for paying $14,255. If he'd been responsible for any kind of personal damage requiring hospitalization, then his liability could have been orders of magnitude greater."
adgrant
10-28-07, 09:13 PM
"Covered" for what?:rolleyes: Good idea to read what is really being offered, and not Internet chatter; the credit cards may offer a sliver of protection for collision damage to the rental car only and nothing else. Hardly the answer to the OP's issue and concern about personal liability for serious money in case of an accident involving injury and others' property.
BTW how does whatever collision coverage is offered by credit card companies for car rentals apply to Flexcar/Zipcar usage? Do Flexcar/Zipcar customers pay for their rentals with credit cards?
I believe you are correct, credit cards typical provide secondary collision insurance on the rental car.
jamesdenver
10-28-07, 09:18 PM
Everything I've read about the costs of car-shares, like $20-$35 dollars for a few hours makes renting a car from Budget or Hertz much more beneficial cost wise. At Budget I can pay $35-40 and have a car for 24 hours, or do a weekend special.
adgrant
10-28-07, 09:40 PM
Everything I've read about the costs of car-shares, like $20-$35 dollars for a few hours makes renting a car from Budget or Hertz much more beneficial cost wise. At Budget I can pay $35-40 and have a car for 24 hours, or do a weekend special.
A car from Budget or Hertz will probably cost you about $100 a day in Manhattan. A Zipcar would be a bit more expensive for the whole day but they do include gas. The cars are often better too (you can even rent a 3 series BMW from Zipcar). Zipcar makes more sense by the hour though.
The major advantage of Zipcar in Manhattan is accessibility. You can pick a car up at two in the morning (more importantly you can drop it off at 2.00 am) and the car may only be a couple of blocks from your apartment.
fat_bike_nut
10-28-07, 10:12 PM
Oh, right. I forgot. The gas is free. And car sharing is mostly for renting by the hour anyway.
rohmen
10-29-07, 10:42 AM
Wow, this bums me out a little. I was planning on using zipcar or igo in Chicago in order to go car free by this May. Anyone know how igo's insurance stacks up? They say they have a $300,000 limit comprehensive policy with a $500 deductable. There is a $5,000 per person limit per accident for medical expenses, however (http://www.igocars.org/faq). Does this actually limit coverage for an injured person's medical costs to $5,000? Isn't that below the Illinois state minimum? Not an insurance expert, but the coverage seems a little skimpy for city driving.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-29-07, 11:40 AM
Is there anything else that needs to be repeated for you?
Yeah. Tell us again about the usefulness of any credit card for providing free liability insurance coverage for car rentals. What credit card has ever provided such coverage to car free types (or anybody else) except in your own imagination? Where has your extensive "reading of fine print" on this issue got you except for wasting time, and making ridiculous statements and offering foolish advice on this issue?
makeinu
10-29-07, 11:55 AM
Yeah. Tell us again about the usefulness of any credit card for providing free liability insurance coverage for car rentals. What credit card has ever provided such coverage to car free types (or anybody else) except in your own imagination? Where has your extensive "reading of fine print" on this issue got you except for wasting time, and making ridiculous statements and offering foolish advice on this issue?
Some versions of the Amex Platinum card offer liability on car rentals. Check the fine print of your card.
...oh, and stop making yourself look like a fool. I think this forum's view of you is already low enough.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-29-07, 12:51 PM
Some versions of the Amex Platinum card offer liability on car rentals. Check the fine print of your card.
I hardly find any of your statements founded on reality but you tweaked my curiosity. The web site for the Platinum Card from American Express makes no mention of any car liability coverage, and only very limited collision coverage for the rental similar to the other credit card companies. Note that the American Express Charge Card is not a free credit card and doesn't it require an annual payment for the privilege of holding it?
Somehow I think you have read into the "fine print," coverage that exists nowhere but your wishful thinking. Or you are just repeating the gossip you read/heard somewhere that you would like to believe.
A direct quotation from some document or web site (better yet, the URL so someone with less free association might read it) about this special version of free car rental liability insurance that only you know about might be helpful.
For those curious about this subject here is some general info at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damage_waiver#Credit_Card_Coverage_of_Damage_Waiver
makeinu
10-29-07, 12:55 PM
I hardly find any of your statements founded on reality but you tweaked my curiosity. The web site for the Platinum Card from American Express makes no mention of any car liability coverage, only very limited collision coverage for the rental similar to the other credit card companies. Note that the American Express Charge Card is not a free credit card and doesn't it require an annual payment for the privilege of holding it?
Somehow I think you have read into the "fine print," coverage that exists nowhere but your wishful thinking. Or you are just repeating the gossip you read/heard somewhere that you would like to believe.
In that case you are somehow wrong ( :eek: shocking I know).
A direct quotation from some document or web site (better yet, the URL so someone with less free association might read it) about this special version of free car rental liability insurance that only you know about might be helpful.
Why should I help you? You constantly troll my posts and hurl insults at me. Find it yourself or be nice for a couple weeks and I'll think about posting it for you.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-29-07, 01:01 PM
Why should I help you? You constantly troll my posts and hurl insults at me. Find it yourself or be nice for a couple weeks and I'll think about posting it for you.
I presume that means you are talking crap through your ... hat; again. No need for me to confirm YOUR statements.
makeinu
10-29-07, 01:06 PM
I presume that means you are talking crap through your ... hat; again. No need for me to confirm YOUR statements.
No. It means that once again, your hostile, presumptuous, and selfrighteous attitude has left you in the dark.
You always got things backwards, ILTB. If something is white, you say black. If something is true, you say false. I tell you to be nice and I'll give you the information requested and what do you do? Insult me of course.
adgrant
10-29-07, 01:20 PM
I hardly find any of your statements founded on reality but you tweaked my curiosity. The web site for the Platinum Card from American Express makes no mention of any car liability coverage, and only very limited collision coverage for the rental similar to the other credit card companies. Note that the American Express Charge Card is not a free credit card and doesn't it require an annual payment for the privilege of holding it?
The real Platinum American Express Card is a charge card and costs $450 a year for the primary card and a couple of hundred dollars a year extra for each additional. Several of the "fake" platinum cards do offer the secondry collision insurance. No liability or primary collision coverage of course.
None of this helps with Zip car but when renting from Hertz etc in Manhattan I would always get CDW since the odds of the car getting damaged if you park on the street are so high.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-29-07, 03:43 PM
I tell you to be nice and I'll give you the information requested and what do you do? Insult me of course.
Thanks, but no thanks. I don't need no stinkin' makeinu brand "information." Especially at the high cost of making "nice", i.e. overlooking your mentally unbalanced rhetoric
I-Like-To-Bike
10-29-07, 03:47 PM
Several of the "fake" platinum cards do offer the secondry collision insurance. No liability or primary collision coverage of course.
Of course; but only for people who don't know about the very special fine print that a little birdie read to them.
wahoonc
10-29-07, 04:03 PM
Everything I've read about the costs of car-shares, like $20-$35 dollars for a few hours makes renting a car from Budget or Hertz much more beneficial cost wise. At Budget I can pay $35-40 and have a car for 24 hours, or do a weekend special.
I agree..to a point. The advantage of Zip/Flex car is the local availability. In my area, if you want Budget or anyone other than Enterprise it is a 30 mile drive out to the airport to retrieve a car for a weekend of use, and it has to be returned to them at the same location. I suspect in larger cities you have in town locations. FWIW we don't have any car rental agencies in our town, the closest being over 60 miles away. But given the local penchant for driving without a license and driving while impaired...I wouldn't want to rent to them either.:D
Aaron:)
UrbanChicago
10-29-07, 05:32 PM
Just went over to my filing cabinet and pulled out the credit card agreement for my Platinum Mastercard. If you have no other insurance, the rental insurance provided is primary coverage.
However, this coverage is NOT liability for property damage or personal injury. It covers the car you are driving and nothing else.
As these car sharing services become more popular, it is almost guaranteed that insurance companies will start offering liability/personal injury insurance at low costs to reflect the amount of time spent behind the wheel. In fact, I would bet that if you contacted one of the non-monolithic companies out there they could craft a policy that would cover you.
Boudicca
10-29-07, 05:52 PM
I keep thinking about the car share people, but right now it doesn't seem to make sense. If I need a car, I rent for a day, get a whole load of errands done, and don't need to worry about horrible traffic on the way back from where I have been. I rented last week for a medical appt that would have been hard to reach by public transport, and then used the car for an evening out as well. It cost $60, plus $5 in gas. 1pm to 4pm carshare for the doctor, and then taxi rides to and from the the evening out would have cost much more.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-29-07, 05:56 PM
In fact, I would bet that if you contacted one of the non-monolithic companies out there they could craft a policy that would cover you.
Sure; for a price, you can insure anything.
Brian
10-29-07, 06:32 PM
Sure; for a price, you can insure anything.
That whole Lloyds of London, J-Lo booty thing was all made up.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-29-07, 09:25 PM
That whole Lloyds of London, J-Lo booty thing was all made up.
That's because Lloyd's only will insure the genuine article with real value- like Marlene Dietrich's gams; not ersatz beauty!
gosmsgo
10-29-07, 09:45 PM
I keep thinking about the car share people, but right now it doesn't seem to make sense. If I need a car, I rent for a day, get a whole load of errands done, and don't need to worry about horrible traffic on the way back from where I have been. I rented last week for a medical appt that would have been hard to reach by public transport, and then used the car for an evening out as well. It cost $60, plus $5 in gas. 1pm to 4pm carshare for the doctor, and then taxi rides to and from the the evening out would have cost much more.
Why didnt you bike?
Boudicca
10-30-07, 06:14 AM
Why didnt you bike?
Medical stuff was to check out torn rotator cuff caused by bike accident. Depends on the weather, but looks like my biking season is over for this year -- I couldn't even reach the handlebars right now.
makeinu
10-30-07, 10:23 AM
Thanks, but no thanks. I don't need no stinkin' makeinu brand "information." Especially at the high cost of making "nice", i.e. overlooking your mentally unbalanced rhetoric
Suit yourself. It doesn't bother me one bit if you'd prefer to wallow in your own ignorance. Ignorance, specious personal attacks, and imaginary fantasies told to you by little birdies all seem to be your forte, but if you'd ever like a taste of reality based facts and figures then I'll be here.
Brian
10-30-07, 12:06 PM
Suit yourself. It doesn't bother me one bit if you'd prefer to wallow in your own ignorance. Ignorance, specious personal attacks, and imaginary fantasies told to you by little birdies all seem to be your forte, but if you'd ever like a taste of reality based facts and figures then I'll be here.
Excuse me. You haven't backed up your statements with a link.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-31-07, 02:18 PM
Why didnt you bike?
Medical stuff was to check out torn rotator cuff caused by bike accident. Depends on the weather, but looks like my biking season is over for this year -- I couldn't even reach the handlebars right now.
Who wudda thunk that someone would go to a medical facility because he/she had a medical condition? Maybe even one that limited the ability to ride a bicycle? Amazing how obtuse some posters can be when common sense is clouded by dogma.
1) The car you reserved may become unavailable shortly before you pick it up.
Jerry: I don't understand. Do you have my reservation?
Rental Car Agent: We have your reservation, we just ran out of cars.
Jerry: But the reservation keeps the car here. That's why you have the reservation.
Rental Car Agent: I think I know why we have reservations.
Jerry: I don't think you do. You see, you know how to *take* the reservation, you just don't know how to *hold* the reservation. And that's really the most important part of the reservation: the holding. Anybody can just take them.
bmclaughlin807
10-31-07, 05:34 PM
Who wudda thunk that someone would go to a medical facility because he/she had a medical condition? Maybe even one that limited the ability to ride a bicycle? Amazing how obtuse some posters can be when common sense is clouded by dogma.
Not such a bad question... I regularly ride to doctor's appointments... In fact I rode to the hospital to get an MRI on my knee after I tore two ligaments.
I-Like-To-Bike
10-31-07, 08:01 PM
Not such a bad question... I regularly ride to doctor's appointments... In fact I rode to the hospital to get an MRI on my knee after I tore two ligaments.
The original poster had already clearly stated that he needed the car specifically for this medical appointment. It was a "bad question" because the questioner was trying to disparage the poster by questioning/doubting his stated reason.
bmclaughlin807
10-31-07, 08:50 PM
The original poster had already clearly stated that he needed the car specifically for this medical appointment. It was a "bad question" because the questioner was trying to disparage the poster by questioning/doubting his stated reason.
There was no disparaging. In fact there was nothing except a question. *shrugs* Maybe the poster meant it in the way you took it. Maybe you're just cynical. ;)
The person being asked didn't seem to take any offense at the question, why did you?
I-Like-To-Bike
11-01-07, 06:34 AM
Maybe the poster meant it in the way you took it. Maybe you're just cynical. ;)
The person being asked didn't seem to take any offense at the question, why did you?
You are almost right, I am quite skeptical about the questioner's intent and feel certain (given previous posts questioning others about the purity of their bicycling ) the poster meant his question exactly the way I took it; i.e. a smug dig at the poster for not being a car free purist as he envisions himself.
makeinu
11-01-07, 10:20 AM
You are almost right, I am quite skeptical about the questioner's intent and feel certain (given previous posts questioning others about the purity of their bicycling ) the poster meant his question exactly the way I took it; i.e. a smug dig at the poster for not being a car free purist as he envisions himself.
And your response was to take a smug dig at the poster for not being the unfettered-car-use supporting purist that you envision yourself, right?
It will be interesting to see what the new insurance policy it.
adgrant
11-01-07, 12:19 PM
It seems combined coverage is now $300,000 which should work for most people most of the time. Its probably not going to be enough for an umbrella policy, but as long as no one gets hurt, it should be ample otherwise.
I-Like-To-Bike
11-01-07, 12:32 PM
It seems combined coverage is now $300,000 which should work for most people most of the time. Its probably not going to be enough for an umbrella policy, but as long as no one gets hurt, it should be ample otherwise.
Car accidents where no one gets hurt? Good idea! Especially for millionaire bicyclists who don't want to risk their fortune.
Seriously, that is certainly better than "free" insurance offered by credit card companies that covers nothing but the rented vehicle
adgrant
11-01-07, 01:18 PM
Car accidents where no one gets hurt? Good idea! Especially for millionaire bicyclists who don't want to risk their fortune.
Seriously, that is certainly better than "free" insurance offered by credit card companies that covers nothing but the rented vehicle
Neither I nor my wife have never been car accidents where someone was hurt. I have been rear ended a several times over the last twenty years though, my wife has been rear ended at least once and once had an at fault accident which caused $4000-$5000 worth of damage.
As for millionaire bicyclists, there are plenty of car free millionaires in Manhattan. Most apartments sell for more than a million dollars. A million dollars no longer qualifies you as wealthy. You need at least 5 million before the wealth management bankers start to get interested.
makeinu
11-01-07, 01:28 PM
Excuse me. You haven't backed up your statements with a link.
Neither I nor my wife have never been car accidents where someone was hurt. I have been rear ended a several times over the last twenty years though, my wife has been rear ended at least once and once had an at fault accident which caused $4000-$5000 worth of damage.
As for millionaire bicyclists, there are plenty of car free millionaires in Manhattan. Most apartments sell for more than a million dollars. A million dollars no longer qualifies you as wealthy. You need at least 5 million before the wealth management bankers start to get interested.
Hey I've never had any accidents at all in 44 years of driving; my wife one no in jury fender bender in 40 years. But I still pay for liability because I cannot handle the risk of needing it and not having it.
I was thinking of a millionaire bicyclist who will gain his wealth through the financial wizardry of not owning a car. I suppose if I didn't own 5 cars I might get some wealth management bankers interested in me.