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What is this called? In the area I commute in, I frequently ride faster than the cars are able to drive simply because of traffic. Often, as I'm coming to stop at an intersection, a car will try to pass me on the left. It really doesn't make any sense to me why they would try to do this. The past few times I've just forcefully taken the lane as I'm coming to a stop because it's just ridiculous (and it's sort of funny when they keep trying to pass and end up halfway in the left turn lane).
Tips?
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They can't judge your speed. They need more drivers' education. All I can really think of is for you to be prepared to stop hard in case they cut you off.
When I come to intersections I will take the centre of the lane to keep folks from trying to pass or right hook me.
When I come to intersections I will take the centre of the lane to keep folks from trying to pass or right hook me.
I do too, but when there is a lane to the left, there's always some bozo who will try to pass you just before a red light because they think you're slower than you really are. Then they try to swerve in front of you and brake hard. <sigh>
I take the centre long before I hit the intersection... and I'm usually pretty speedy.
I do too, but when there is a lane to the left, there's always some bozo who will try to pass you just before a red light because they think you're slower than you really are. Then they try to swerve in front of you and brake hard. <sigh>
Oh it can be even worse than that... with bozos willing to cross the double yellow not knowing if someone is about to come around the corner, and yet still before a stop. Even if the stop is already blocked by other vehicles.
Clearly this is purely idiotic behaviour based on some strange notion (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2415431&postcount=1) that cars should never be behind bikes.
It makes no sense, and some motorists are willing to take what ever chances they must to simply get away from cyclists.
It doesn't matter if you ride smack dab in the middle of the road... some motorists will use wrong lanes, even go against oncoming traffic, just so they are not behind a bicycle rider.
And no doubt if they hit a cyclist while doing this, or are involved in some other accident... the comments will include something along the lines of "the cyclist swerved right out in front of me" or "I didn't see the biker," or "bikes are supposed to get out of the way... "
:rolleyes:
I call it the "in a big hurry to stop" syndrome, which I agree with Genec is from some belief that bikes should never be in front of cars.
Whenever a car tries this I hold my ground. On more than one occassion, the car has had to stop at the stop sign, in the oncoming traffic lane! Of course, they are pissed at me.
I have been in this type of situation too.
As I come to a stop at the intersection, a car would speed up and overtake me before stopping at the intersection.
I hate being cut-off like this. If I had an Air-Zound, I would probably blast it!
If you have a mirror, you can see and hear drivers attempting to do this.
My trick is to imitate the driver's action. When I see/hear them speed up, I speed up too and take the lane. Then they end up waiting behind me because there is no room to pass. The disadvantage is you waste energy speeding up and braking to stop immediately after.
I guess the tip is: Don't slow down too early when approaching a stop at an intersection. Otherwise, the motorist would want to overtake you.
Whenever a car tries this I hold my ground. On more than one occassion, the car has had to stop at the stop sign, in the oncoming traffic lane!...
I do this, too. I don't speed up, I just don't slow down any sooner than I would for the stop, to let them in.
Oh it can be even worse than that... with bozos willing to cross the double yellow not knowing if someone is about to come around the corner, and yet still before a stop. Even if the stop is already blocked by other vehicles.
Clearly this is purely idiotic behaviour based on some strange notion (http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php?p=2415431&postcount=1) that cars should never be behind bikes.
It makes no sense, and some motorists are willing to take what ever chances they must to simply get away from cyclists.
It doesn't matter if you ride smack dab in the middle of the road... some motorists will use wrong lanes, even go against oncoming traffic, just so they are not behind a bicycle rider.
And no doubt if they hit a cyclist while doing this, or are involved in some other accident... the comments will include something along the lines of "the cyclist swerved right out in front of me" or "I didn't see the biker," or "bikes are supposed to get out of the way... "
:rolleyes:
I agree completely with your comments.
This has happened to me MANY times. It's turned into a desperate-last-moment right hook on occasion where I ended up pounding the R side of a vehicle as a warning/educational attempt, not too much effort needed since the JAM has nearly stopped on top of me.
Funniest ones are where the JAM ends up clear over in the opposing lane, stopped, with a vehicle in the roadway attempting to enter, but can't due to JAM blocking his entry/ROW. So we all sit there, I chuckle, finally JAM continues on his journey to alleviate traffic jam he's created. I swear some people are too learning-impaired to safely operate motor vehicles. I know one day this will be a collision - just hope I'm still in position to laugh about it.
They do it whether you are in the center of the lane, the left edge of the lane, whether there is a blind curve and passing you risks killing everybody, even on single lane roads when clearly another car is coming. They are idiots. Idiotic in their belief that they must pass bicycles no matter what.
I do this, too. I don't speed up, I just don't slow down any sooner than I would for the stop, to let them in.
That's my exact policy, and I encounter this at least once every day. I don't speed up, because I don't want to waste the energy on my hilly commute and I don't want to be run down by someone with road rage, but I do not slow any more than I otherwise would. I just enjoy filtering past them or passing them in the next block of traffic.
Happens relatively often to me. I usually respond with my actual thought at the time- I turn, look at the driver and say/mouth "What _are_ you doing?" I've gotten a range of responses- averted eyes, some kind of shoulder shrug, a very occasional apology. No real obvious anger- I think it's just the "car-must-pass-bike" thing working on autopilot. Take the lane pretty early, actually stop at the sign and signal your turn (if any) to remind them that you belong on the road as much as they do...
This happens all the time and in fact it happened with my wife yesterday and one of the city busses.
We always take the lane long before the intersection but most motorists just underestimate your speed.
Theres really nothing you can do about it except smile at them while they are sitting in the opposite traffic lane at the stop sign. They never look over because they are VERY embarassed.
this is a pretty common situation and there have been several threads about this recently.
Often drivers approaching a cyclist from behind as both are approaching a stop sign will feel they have the right to pass the cyclist, if they can, before the stop sign. It's a kind of territorial imperative. Keep in mind that even in the most congested of urban environments we've catered to the automobile since the 1920's and given them major status in road usage and design. Which is why the driver feels like their world has been turned upside down when a cyclist does not give way as expected.
Sometimes I stand my ground but often I'll move aside.
I want to be prepared to deal with any consequences of not giving way to an aggressive driver even when I have the law on my side. Holding the lane until the offending driver is forced to remain in the wrong lane facing on-coming traffic may provide a smug satisfaction but could endanger an approaching innocent driver and/or cyclist unprepared for an automobile to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.
There is sometimes a fine line between being an assertive cyclist and playing games of chicken.
Isn't the lane wide enough to share?
Isn't the lane wide enough to share?
IMO no lane is wide enough to share at an intersection.
I've never had the motorists try to come back into my lane. They just have to stop at the intersection in the wrong lane which frankly teaches them a lesson.
I typically take the lane at intersections, but never had a car try to pass me on the left. Last night however, a cab passed me up on the right as I took the lane. I thought he was making a right turn, but he just wanted to shoot in front of me after the light turned green. It's ironic since one of the reasons I take the lane is so cars behind me can make a right turn, and then this guy just re-blocks the way again with his car :P
Isn't the lane wide enough to share?
Lane "sharing" is really suspect, especially when it comes to a "your turn, now your turn" kind of situation an intersection presents. When we're travelling down the same road I'm all for sharing, it works out better for everyone if we can ignore "passing" and just pretend that one lane is two. However, I'm not going to be crammed into the corner at an intersection and possibly pushed off the road as we get to the other side.
some motorists totally disrespect bicyclists taking the lane. it's "Their" lane. some do it manevolently, so express displeasure with their horns, others just try to get by without much hassle, but to a lot of motorists it's still "Their" lane - in their opinion.
some motorists totally disrespect bicyclists taking the lane. it's "Their" lane. some do it manevolently, so express displeasure with their horns, others just try to get by without much hassle, but to a lot of motorists it's still "Their" lane - in their opinion.
I've never had anyone do it as a form of aggresion IMO.
In fact just last week someone did it and said "sorry" as he went by me and ran the light. He started to pass, realized he did not have time and felt as if he could not abort the manuever. When most cyclists filter why wouldnt the motorist feel that he can pass at a stop sign.....the bike should stay to the right....that is beaten into their head anytime they are sitting at a stop and have someone come sneaking by.
As more cyclists take to the street this will not happen as often IMO. In some midwest cities you could probably go years without interacting with a bicycle on the street.
I'm happy for you, gosmgo. I've been the brunt of more than one road rage merely for taking the lane.
see my most recent A&S thread "I had a run-in with a ragin' cager" and read the newslink.
What is this called? In the area I commute in, I frequently ride faster than the cars are able to drive simply because of traffic. Often, as I'm coming to stop at an intersection, a car will try to pass me on the left. It really doesn't make any sense to me why they would try to do this. The past few times I've just forcefully taken the lane as I'm coming to a stop because it's just ridiculous (and it's sort of funny when they keep trying to pass and end up halfway in the left turn lane).
Tips?
Same here, in town I often go 50% faster than the cars in traffic. It is just a "see bike, must pass" mindset. Be assertive, take the lane at every intersection. And don't be afraid to put them into the other lane.
As more cyclists take to the street this will not happen as often IMO. In some midwest cities you could probably go years without interacting with a bicycle on the street. It's not really limited to midwest cities. I live in the suburbs of new york and even still cyclists on the street are a rare occurrence. In six years of driving, I've seen a cyclist on the road once and that was this month, when I moved further out east from the city. Your average casual commuter, kid, or family riding on the sidewalk? I see them all the time, but as a driver you glance and don't take much notice, as they're not a direct threat except when crossing (and they use crosswalks like pedestrians.) Yes, I used the word threat, but it's strange, your mindset changes when you're behind the wheel.
To be honest, I cycle on my local roads and deal with cars every day, but I can totally understand why people might not know how to deal with cyclists... I myself have never experienced having to drive near a cyclist before. Obviously, knowing what it's like to be in their shoes, I'd give them the courtesy I expect when I'm riding. I'd give them room whenever possible so that they can pass parked cars safely in the lane. I wouldn't zoom around them near an intersection. However, if someone were to try to squeeze through to my right, I'd probably be a little skittish, for fear I might hit them.
I typically take the lane at intersections, but never had a car try to pass me on the left. Last night however, a cab passed me up on the right as I took the lane. I thought he was making a right turn, but he just wanted to shoot in front of me after the light turned green. It's ironic since one of the reasons I take the lane is so cars behind me can make a right turn, and then this guy just re-blocks the way again with his car :P
The passing on the right at an intersection maneuver described is so common in Philadelphia that no one, either driving a car or riding a bike should be surprised. If there is enough available space on the right of any stopped vehicle (turning lane, bus stop, gap in parked cars, etc.) it is almost a sure thing that some impatient street light hot rodder will use it to pass; guaranteed if the left lane is already occupied by other traffic.
Practicing "Take the Lane!!" dogma does nothing to prevent this type of passing.
I guess I'm lucky, I'm able to get completely out of cars way at all lights and intersections I ride. Even if it means I only have 2 foot of bike lane until I pass through said intersection. Of course I deliberately ride roads to avoid cars as much as possible. I'm able to ride most of the time in bike\breakdown lanes until I'm in a rural area, which don't have breakdown lanes, but still a lot less cars.
Often, while approaching a red light, motorists will dive into my lane ahead of me. It is the desire to be in the shortest line for the green light.
I filter to just ahead of them, then continue on in the lane with the green light. ;)
By the time they can merge left to go around me, they are further "behind" than if they had just stayed in the next lane in the first place.:p
I don't take the lane at intersections because to me it seems unecessary and provocative. This is especially true if I have filtered to the front at a light. (EDIT: this is not in response to ChipSeal in the previous message - I was already composing this when ChipSeal posted). If there is a right turn only lane, I stay to the left of it, but otherwise I keep to the right. If cars are turning right on red, they can go around me. If they are thinking about turning right but haven't done so by the time the light changes, I check that they see me, and move up into the front of the crosswalk to block them, just as the light turns green. Occasionally I'll see them start their turn just as the light is about to change, and in that case if they have started to move before I have, I let them go ahead.
There is one intersection where I do take the lane - a quiet residential street crossing a busy artery that is usually jammed. In this case, any cars coming up behind me are almost always going to turn right, so I leave them room to turn behind me.
I had a guy maliciously retaliate against me for "causing" another guy to swerve into his path. I retaliated by getting his license number and informing the police. They paid him a visit to his home. They have since built a bike path that bypasses the street where this happened. Almost all cyclists use it now.
Isn't the lane wide enough to share?
Doesn't matter... I've seen motorists leave the lane you are in (even with plenty of room to share) and move into oncoming traffic, or move to a center non turning lane and then make a right turn, or move into a left lane and then make a right hook right turn from that lane. I've seen motorists go around a Right Only Turn Lane to avoid me in that lane getting ready to turn right. (apparently I did not react with the nanosecond timing the driver expected... of course I actually stopped for the red before turning)
I've had motorists go wide around me to the left, in spite of a very wide opening to my right, only to have the motorist then make a right turn in front of me.
I had one motorist behind me, as I approach a light, make a very aggressive pass on my left, cutting off other motorists that were approaching also on my left, only so that first motorist could then swerve back into the lane right at the light. Total waste of gas, abuse of power, and at risk to me, other motorists, and the idiot that did it.
Being passed suddenly by motor vehicles while slowing for a stop sign or red light is a frequent issue on my rides.
No solution that has either been devised by me or previously posted on BF has proven effective.
I don't take the lane at intersections because to me it seems unecessary and provocative.
I used to have the same concerns about taking the lane, but as a driver, I find it more annoying to be blocked from turning right by a cyclist, than being stopped behind one. Note that I only take the lane at stops; immediately after the intersection I go back into the bike lane. It doesn't really slow down traffic much as far as I've seen.
I used to have the same concerns about taking the lane, but as a driver, I find it more annoying to be blocked from turning right by a cyclist, than being stopped behind one. Note that I only take the lane at stops; immediately after the intersection I go back into the bike lane. It doesn't really slow down traffic much as far as I've seen.
That is typically what I do... move left at the stops, unless there is some other compelling reason for me to be left anyway... such as going straight through a light where most folks turn right, or if I am making a left turn. I destination position when I cycle. Yet I have had motorists do the oddest things anyway irrelevant of my position, and to circumvent it.
In every case, the motorist really had to go out of their way... that is the thing that shocks me about such moves... they are not accidental or just occurring as someone mis guessed my speed or something, these are deliberate acts by people either not thinking through (very possible) or by people compelled for some other reason (also possible).
This happened to me last week. Kept my position in the center of the lane, let off a few good AirZounds blasts, and the cager conceded. I love my AZ!
In every case, the motorist really had to go out of their way...that is the thing that shocks me
It's no mystery - you were in their way. Thinking like a motorist, it is strange and irritating when they see a cyclist, whom they believe should keep to the right and whom they assume they can easily overtake, deliberately block their path. You may believe that it is the proper or safe thing to do (and I'm not disputing it) but it's hardly a shocker when car drivers don't see it that way.
It's no mystery - you were in their way. Thinking like a motorist, it is strange and irritating when they see a cyclist, whom they believe should keep to the right and whom they assume they can easily overtake, deliberately block their path. You may believe that it is the proper or safe thing to do (and I'm not disputing it) but it's hardly a shocker when car drivers don't see it that way.
I need to tone down the word "shock;" in reality it is no shock what so ever... it is more like "gee, typical idiot move... " in my brain... and I caulk up "another one" in the idiot driver column.
It is never really a shocker... I've come to expect just about anything. It is just more affirmation of the fact that just about anyone can and does drive; skill is not at all a requirement.
As has been said, taking the lane is not a cure, because cars will pass on the right.
I personally don't insist on taking the lane in a WOL at a stoplight usually (I just give a car's width between me and the curb, for right-turners), but I almost always do at any given stop sign, because it seems that the average driver is already completely baffled by how ROW works at a stop sign, and me being near the curb just adds confusion to the situation.
When a driver passes me when I'm taking the lane right before a stop sign (and has ignored my "don't pass" signal) I've started passing them back. It's probably not the safest move, but it feels good.
When a driver passes me when I'm taking the lane right before a stop sign (and has ignored my "don't pass" signal) I've started passing them back. It's probably not the safest move, but it feels good.
Yeah... LOL... in at least one respect I do agree... I'm waiting again for the situation where I am cycling on an "empty" multilaned street (my previous encounters were on Clairemont Mesa Blvd) on a quiet Sunday and someone comes up behind me and honks while I am alone in the right lane... I'll just move left and give them the right lane... obviously that must be what they want. ;)
This afternoon I had a motorist speed up to pass me and then slam on his brakes at a red light. At least, that's what I thought he was doing. Waiting at the red, I then hear him yell at me out of his SUV to get out of his way because he was trying to parallel park in the space to the side and just behind me. The red light was merely a coincidence. Had he not been so hot to pass me, he'd have been in the ideal lane position to execute a perfect parallel parking manuever just behind me.
Maybe he was afraid I'd snatch the plum parking space he spotted. :lol:
Pretty good story.
You should have told him you were waiting for the light to turn green, and held your position until the green light.
Makes an even better story.
I guess you guys have more trouble than I do, I take the lane at an intersection, if there is a lane to the right or left, I ALLOW the cars to use it. But they will not use MY lane when I am at an intersection. I use my rear view mirror, and position myself as to not allow it. Who cares if they use a lane to the left or right? As long as they are not using my lane, what's the difference? Never been right-hooked, never came close to being right hooked. I even had a hard time until I saw a diagram knowing what a right hook was, because it is so alien to the way I ride. I have had a couple cars blow stop signs and pass in the oncoming lane.
Now a question; I read about riders not wanting to get passed as soon as the light turns and swallowed up in traffic, am I the only rider that almost always out sprints the cars accross the intersection?
Now a question; I read about riders not wanting to get passed as soon as the light turns and swallowed up in traffic, am I the only rider that almost always out sprints the cars accross the intersection? Depends on the intersection. One of the major roads I have to cross near my house is 8 lane wide. (3 on each side plus turn lanes) On a 2-4 lane crossing, I can easily jump up to 20mph by the end of the intersection, way ahead of the cars in crossing. But when you're talking 8 lanes to get across, and 3 lanes of cars going with you, there's going to be several cars who're past you by the time you get across.
Who cares if they use a lane to the left or right? As long as they are not using my lane, what's the difference? Never been right-hooked, never came close to being right hooked...
Now a question; I read about riders not wanting to get passed as soon as the light turns and swallowed up in traffic, am I the only rider that almost always out sprints the cars accross the intersection?
The problem lies when the adjacent lane is obstructed with parked cars or end of the lane just past the intersection and the motorist is obviously planning to merge quickly into the lane the cyclist will be in; applies especially to motorists using a parking lane/bus stop area on the right to pass hopscotch style in dense city traffic. Practicing your hot shot intersection bike sprinting technique with too many motorists who are themselves intent on passing the cyclist in the same location would be a speedy way to put a cyclist in the hospital, or morgue.
I guess you guys have more trouble than I do, I take the lane at an intersection, if there is a lane to the right or left, I ALLOW the cars to use it. But they will not use MY lane when I am at an intersection. I use my rear view mirror, and position myself as to not allow it. Who cares if they use a lane to the left or right? As long as they are not using my lane, what's the difference? Never been right-hooked, never came close to being right hooked. I even had a hard time until I saw a diagram knowing what a right hook was, because it is so alien to the way I ride. I have had a couple cars blow stop signs and pass in the oncoming lane.
I'm not so sure that this is because of your bicycling behavior, but more about the sample set of drivers you've met on the roads.
We are talking about people passing you before a stop - when you are already fully taking the lane.
Is there something other then just taking the lane assertively and making hand signals, that prevents them from going around and cutting you off right before a stop sign?
We are talking about people passing you before a stop - when you are already fully taking the lane.
Is there something other then just taking the lane assertively and making hand signals, that prevents them from going around and cutting you off right before a stop sign?
And I am talking about motorists maintaining speed or accelerating immediately after the intersection intent on passing the slower vehicle (bicycle or any other vehicle) and merging whether the bicyclist is stopped or not, in the way or not, or sprinting like a demon.
I'm not so sure that this is because of your bicycling behavior, but more about the sample set of drivers you've met on the roads.
We are talking about people passing you before a stop - when you are already fully taking the lane.
Is there something other then just taking the lane assertively and making hand signals, that prevents them from going around and cutting you off right before a stop sign?
I don't know maybe so, attitude? Body language? I see most riders who ride, for lack of better words, meek. Like they're afraid to be on the road, or like they're doing somethingwrong.
"but more about the sample set of drivers you've met on the roads."
Maybe so. I have cycled extensively in Cincinnati, Oh., Indy, In., Lexington, Ky., and Miami, Fl. All great places to ride as far as I'm concerned.
Practicing your hot shot intersection bike sprinting technique with too many motorists who are themselves intent on passing the cyclist in the same location would be a speedy way to put a cyclist in the hospital, or morgue.
Maybe, but it sure seems like people other than me sure have alot of problems at intersections. I have never had a serious concern at an intersection. Not once, in 15 years of on road cycling.
Your sample size is too small to make any conclusions.
Being passed suddenly by motor vehicles while slowing for a stop sign or red light is a frequent issue on my rides.
No solution that has either been devised by me or previously posted on BF has proven effective.
Any more when I'm approaching an intersection and realize that I have an impatient motorist behind me wanting to pass and possibly about to do so in the intersection, I'll just wave them around before the intersection, slowing down if necessary. Usually, traffic pulls away from intersections much quicker than I can (most of my riding is in a suburban environment) so it's not like they'll be causing me much if any delay if they get to go first. It's a lot easier to do this than to deal with being passed on the right or left in the middle of the intersection. Note that this is not always possible because of oncoming traffic. In my experience though, traffic is much more patient when there's oncoming traffic present than when there's just a hill, curve, or empty intersection up ahead.
Is there something other then just taking the lane assertively and making hand signals, that prevents them from going around and cutting you off right before a stop sign?
I don't know maybe so, attitude? Body language? I see most riders who ride, for lack of better words, meek. Like they're afraid to be on the road, or like they're doing somethingwrong.
"but more about the sample set of drivers you've met on the roads."
Maybe so. I have cycled extensively in Cincinnati, Oh., Indy, In., Lexington, Ky., and Miami, Fl. All great places to ride as far as I'm concerned.
Add anywhere I've ever ridden all over zeytoun's city of San Diego to the list of places where cyclist behavior alone can all but eliminate motorists passing, or trying to pass, while coming to a stop. I think attitude and body language are a big part of it. I know a couple of LCIs who never realized how much more effective their hand signals could be until they viewed their own behavior in a video clip. I think the importance of attitude and body language are widely undervalued in the cycling culture (to his credit, Robert Hurst recognizes the important role of attitude in his book, The Art of Urban Cycling). And the body language and behavior of most cyclists I see can be accurately described as meek, and "like they're afraid to be on the road, or like they're doing something wrong." Motorists instinctively take advantage of that. Timidity has similar drawbacks in all kinds of social contexts.
I don't know if maddyfish uses a mirror, but I think mirror use helps indirectly and directly. Mirror use helps directly because you can observe driver behavior behind you, and, in particular, see how they react to changes, even seemingly subtle ones, in your own behavior. I mean, there it is, instantaneous feedback in real time: they're approaching like they're going to pass, I issue an arm signal, or adjust laterally, or look back, and they instantly slow down, and realize they have to wait. Somethings work, some don't. With a mirror, you can see what works and what doesn't and how well. And that's how mirror use works indirectly, because you can quickly learn what works best when and where, and soon know to do that even without a mirror.
But the essential message you're trying to convey, is this: I am here, I know you're there, and I don't want you to pass me right now. I will allow you to pass as soon as it is appropriate. Thank you.
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