Advocacy & Safety - I had a run in with a ragin' cager, and it made the news

The difference is HH is always telling Bek "I don't know what you're doing wrong. When I act like a vehicle, I get smiles and waves."

That implies that Helmet Head DOESN'T get honks, the bird, and run off the road.

So maybe the truth is sometimes Helmet Head gets smiles and waves, and sometimes he gets the bird? If so, why tell others here "I don't know what you're doing wrong"?
I've written about times when I've encountered aggressive/honking drivers. They're rare, so I don't post about them much, but I have. And I refer to them. And I link to them.

I'm fascinated by the false dichotomy error that you and Human Car seem to both be making. It's interesting because you're making almost the exact same mistake, with totally different people. In Human Car's case, noted a few posts back, it was with respect to Lauren Coopers post on another forum.

The error has to do with somehow not recognizing the context: Lauren and I responding to the high frequency of negative motorist encounters that others report. When we say we don't have "that problem" , we're saying that we don't have those encounters nearly often enough to warrant it being a problem that needs addressing, solving, or hardly even mentioning.'

For the record, yes, once in a while someone honks at me or flips me off. Usually weeks, if not months, go by between incidents. It's not a problem.

For the record, yes, once in a while someone honks at me or flips me off. Usually weeks, if not months, go by between incidents. It's not a problem.Every time you ride then?

:D

Is that what you see here?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1PWNBaRN1M

Al

Be careful out there. Looks like you live in road-rage central.

I hope this day never comes, but if it does that video camera is going to help you win a huge lawsuit.

Sorry, just beating Bek to the punch... :lol:

Every time you ride then?

:D
Ha Ha.

The difference is HH is always telling Bek "I don't know what you're doing wrong. When I act like a vehicle, I get smiles and waves."

That implies that Helmet Head DOESN'T get honks, the bird, and run off the road.

So maybe the truth is sometimes Helmet Head gets smiles and waves, and sometimes he gets the bird? If so, why tell others here "I don't know what you're doing wrong"?
I like this post, because it's straight-forward, without the sarcasm.

Well, I can't say if you're right or not. That's between you and HH.

I really wish we'd all just hang together. Motorists need a demonstration of how solid we can be. (That's my left brain talking. The right brain is on vacation. :p)

Ha Ha.I'll be here all week. :lol:

Even though Gene admits to honking harassment in both his Bike 1 and bike 2 classes (taken with Head?); I suspect bicycling around, on the weekends, in steely eyed packs of LCI groupies negotiating with eyebrow raises and butt waggling is a far cry from solo commuting.

but hey, if you feel compelled to ride around in packs on the weekend to keep the motorists at bay, more power to ya!

Actually, I hear more honking when riding in a pack than when riding solo.

You've taken this quote out context, of course. ... When Lauren writes, "Since formally-trained traffic cyclists do not seem to share this problem,", by "this problem" she is referring to the apparently very high frequency of encountering "attacks" from motorists. That is the "the problem" that "formally-trained traffic cyclists do not seem to share", and I, for one, concur.
Quoting the significant portion and providing a link for context is not taking things out of context. It is a non-verbose way of communicating, obviously something you are not familiar with.

I use Lauren quote as it is the most succinct statement on the subject. You need to insert “very high frequency” to make sense of her statement but is that the implication? Further on she says:

One often hears that some road or region is too difficult or hostile for bicycling. Yet cyclists with training in Advanced Traffic-Bicycling™ live in most of these regions, and ride most of these roads.

So the real question at hand is can a section of road be inherently hostile to cyclists? (i.e. Have a high frequency of motorists honking.) My assertion is yes it can, which got blown down in that thread. And…

My conversations with Forester on the forum about riding in Bethesda, MD implied if I got even one motorist interaction I was doing something wrong as he never experienced anything when he road there. Yet CB_HI (who is at least LCI trained) experienced his first JAM in Bethesda. So what is it, are CB_HI, myself (and many of my friends) doing something wrong or can a section of road produce a higher frequency of harassment?

Your challenge if you choose to except it is to find a quote from a VC elite that defines an acceptable frequency of honks and at what frequency they become unacceptable. I have yet to run across anything authoritative on the subject of acceptable frequency of motorist harassment.

Even though Gene admits to honking harassment in both his Bike 1 and bike 2 classes (taken with Head?); I suspect bicycling around, on the weekends, in steely eyed packs of LCI groupies negotiating with eyebrow raises and butt waggling is a far cry from solo commuting.

but hey, if you feel compelled to ride around in packs on the weekend to keep the motorists at bay, more power to ya!

When I took Road 2, HH happened to be taking the same class. He was not in my Road 1 class... which I showed up for in full kit. The instructor took one look at me and said "this is not a racing class... "

At the time I happened to be riding my road bike and the "kit" was just comfortable.

For Road 2, I used my commuter.

As far as the "far cry" issue... I think any group ride tends to command a bit more "respect" from motorists... simply because the cyclist is no longer alone, and has built in witnesses. So the harassment factor tends to go down... up to the point where there are enough cyclists to start using "too much road" in the minds of motorists. (which was probably the case in the classes... although we were quite respectful of staying in single file).

I usually ride a bit further left than most cyclists I see riding on the street... somewhere close to the right tire track... and motorists tend to take offense at that. Of course if a BL exists... I tend to use 'em, but even then, around here, some BL are really poor, so I'll ride to the left of the stripe. And I never hesitate to leave a BL if I feel a need to.

And as far as my riding.... it is everything... from weekend runs to the store to small group rides (2-3) to solo treks to weekday path rides to just cruising the beach to even commuting. Different bikes, different routes, different clothing. Everything from Beach Cruising with my wife while I ride my fat tire Huffy and wear Hawaiian shirts, to group rides with me in full kit on a fast road bike.

"2. When there is a unsharable narrow lane (in my experience) if one rides far right one will create more upset drivers and increase the chance of honking vs. if one rides centerish.
My observations is the opposite almost no honks when I am (was) a gutter bunny but a heck of a lot of right hooks. But once on a narrow road I was told to ride on the sidewalk (no sidewalk at that location) so I can see how it can happen as when I ride that road now I haven’t gotten a reaction. I still think there are some local social norms and infrastructure issues that determine how things like this work out.

Nothing will with certainty prevent a few jerks from acting aggressively towards another driver or person.
Word.

My observations is the opposite almost no honks when I am (was) a gutter bunny but a heck of a lot of right hooks.
I will never again be a "gutter bunny." Death-trap.

I'll take honks over that anyday.

Even though Gene admits to honking harassment in both his Bike 1 and bike 2 classes (taken with Head?); I suspect bicycling around, on the weekends, in steely eyed packs of LCI groupies negotiating with eyebrow raises and butt waggling is a far cry from solo commuting.

but hey, if you feel compelled to ride around in packs on the weekend to keep the motorists at bay, more power to ya!
Did you really say that?

Beck, all I do is commute. 'smy bread and butter.

Solo commuting is all I know. And it's not dangerous. In rush hour. Hello.

(Please forgive me, I'm not understanding how commuting is a prob.)

I love commuting. Always will.

Quoting the significant portion and providing a link for context is not taking things out of context. It is a non-verbose way of communicating, obviously something you are not familiar with.
What you took out of context, as you read it, was what she referred to as "the problem". You assumed "the problem" was EVER being honked at, yet she was replying to someone who was whining about frequently being harassed. That's what you took out of context by quoting her words, including her reference to "the problem", without any guidance as to what she was referring, and clearly making the implication that "the problem" was any more , even one more, than "zero honks".


I use Lauren quote as it is the most succinct statement on the subject. You need to insert “very high frequency” to make sense of her statement but is that the implication?

Of course it is. Any other interpretation is absurd.


Further on she says:
One often hears that some road or region is too difficult or hostile for bicycling. Yet cyclists with training in Advanced Traffic-Bicycling™ live in most of these regions, and ride most of these roads.Right. So since they live in most of these regions, and ride most of these roads, how is it that these roads or regions are too difficult or hostile for bicycling?

Experienced cyclists have told me I'm crazy for commuting along La Jolla Village Drive (6+ lanes, 45 mph speed limit, freeway interchange, etc). Indeed, few cyclists ride there. But it's my regular commute which I've been doing for 7 or 8 years now. The number of times I've had problems (honks, etc.) in all those years I can count on my hand.


So the real question at hand is can a section of road be inherently hostile to cyclists? (i.e. Have a high frequency of motorists honking.) My assertion is yes it can, which got blown down in that thread. And…

That's not the real question at hand, it's a separate question.
Most cyclists in San Diego would say La Jolla Village Drive falls into that inherently hostile category, yet one of the LCIs in San Diego takes Road 1 students on it (between Gilman and Lebon). Still others, including Gene, would say Kearney Villa Road fits the bill. I disagree.


My conversations with Forester on the forum about riding in Bethesda, MD implied if I got even one motorist interaction I was doing something wrong as he never experienced anything when he road there.

Judging from your misinterpretation in the meaning of Lauren's words, pardon me if I don't take your word on what the implications of Forester's words were.


Yet CB_HI (who is at least LCI trained) experienced his first JAM in Bethesda. So what is it, are CB_HI, myself (and many of my friends) doing something wrong or can a section of road produce a higher frequency of harassment?

Just becaues CB HI encountered his first JAM on this road does not mean it's inherently hostile. I would not be surprised if the frequency of hostility varied among roads, but that doesn't mean the frequency is every high enough to warrant being "inherently hostile" to the extent of being "too difficult or hostile for bicycling."


Your challenge if you choose to except it is to find a quote from a VC elite that defines an acceptable frequency of honks and at what frequency they become unacceptable. I have yet to run across anything authoritative on the subject of acceptable frequency of motorist harassment.
Since the "VC elite" tend to not encounter such problems (too many honks), there is not much discussion about it. It's like asking a 4 year old how much candy is too much. It's just something that is not given much thought, for there is no reason for it.

My opinion is daily is way too frequent, and even weekly probably indicates there is considerable room for improvement in cyclist behavior.

As far as the "far cry" issue... I think any group ride tends to command a bit more "respect" from motorists... simply because the cyclist is no longer alone, and has built in witnesses. So the harassment factor tends to go down... up to the point where there are enough cyclists to start using "too much road" in the minds of motorists. (which was probably the case in the classes... although we were quite respectful of staying in single file).
Maybe it depends on the size of the group. But I'd say about 1 out of every 3 times I ride with the club (40-50+ riders in the peloton) we get honked once somewhere along the 50 mile ride. The frequency is much less when riding solo or with a small group (2-4).


I usually ride a bit further left than most cyclists I see riding on the street... somewhere close to the right tire track... and motorists tend to take offense at that. Of course if a BL exists... I tend to use 'em, but even then, around here, some BL are really poor, so I'll ride to the left of the stripe. And I never hesitate to leave a BL if I feel a need to.
Somewhere close to the right tire track???

If the lane is wide enough to be safely shared, why are you as far left as the right tire track? People are suggesting you should move right to give them room to pass without having to encroach in the adjacent lane. Move further right so that the lane that is wide enough to be safely shared can actually be shared.

If the lane is too narrow to be safely shared, why are you as far right as the right tire track? You're not clearly controlling the lane in the right tire track - they think they can squeeze in if you just move over a bit to your right, so they honk. Move further left to be clear as possible and as soon as possible that they need to change lanes to pass, because the lane is too narrow for sharing.

In order to maximize the amount of honking and harrasment I got, I would ride like you ride: in the right tire track.

Gene, this really explains a lot about why you get much more honking and harassment than I get.

As far as the "far cry" issue... I think any group ride tends to command a bit more "respect" from motorists...
The only times I've ever had bottles, trash, stuff thrown at us and also on two occasions had a driver merge towards us squeezing us and clipping one rider was when I have been with a group. On all these occasions (~6 total) the group was single file and fully within the BL on weekend mornings with light traffic and a full unused lane adjacent to outer lane. I've never had anything like this on my daily solo commute in rush hour.
One time (after the swerving toward us and clipping a rider) the group caught the driver at the gas station. Some folks in the group confronted the driver, still in pickup he threw it in gear and drove right at some of them and they jumped away and were not hit . The gas station attendant sensed trouble and called the police. The cyclists told the story, the driver claimed the cyclists were mobbing him and threatening the driver (one did squirt water at them unfortunately after he drove toward them the second time) but the guy was never cornered nor surrounded. The police said they would write up the cyclists involved in the confrontation for assault. They also said that as they were no witnesses he could not do anything about the 'alleged' close pass and clip. As to witnesses I don't know why the other cyclists could not act as them.

Al

My observations is the opposite almost no honks when I am (was) a gutter bunny but a heck of a lot of right hooks. But once on a narrow road I was told to ride on the sidewalk (no sidewalk at that location) so I can see how it can happen as when I ride that road now I haven’t gotten a reaction. I still think there are some local social norms and infrastructure issues that determine how things like this work out.
Perhaps the difference is the road I am thinking of is so narrow as to be impossible to share side by side even if several inches from curb. Drivers must merge partly into adjacent lane no matter where the cyclist positions themselves.

Al

Somewhere close to the right tire track???

If the lane is wide enough to be safely shared, why are you as far left as the right tire track? sometimes, head, even if the lane is wide enough to be safely shared, being in a sharing position is not the optimal position due to traffic and road conditions. I think you are exhibiting some schizophrenia regarding lane position. what a buffoon.

A new vehicular slogan compiled from the musings in this thread by head, little big man, steve G, noisebeam and CB HI-

"VC - there might be honks and waves, but despite your belief in vehicular parity, some motorists will still mess with you. Be prepared to alter course."

Somewhere close to the right tire track???

If the lane is wide enough to be safely shared, why are you as far left as the right tire track? People are suggesting you should move right to give them room to pass without having to encroach in the adjacent lane. Move further right so that the lane that is wide enough to be safely shared can actually be shared.

If the lane is too narrow to be safely shared, why are you as far right as the right tire track? You're not clearly controlling the lane in the right tire track - they think they can squeeze in if you just move over a bit to your right, so they honk. Move further left to be clear as possible and as soon as possible that they need to change lanes to pass, because the lane is too narrow for sharing.

In order to maximize the amount of honking and harrasment I got, I would ride like you ride: in the right tire track.

Gene, this really explains a lot about why you get much more honking and harassment than I get.

When the lane is wide enough there is generally a BL... so as I said, I tend to ride in those.

When the lane is narrow I don't take the middle as that is where the grease is, I don't ride in the left tire track as that would position me for a left destination, so the right tire track is the proper place.

The only times I've ever had bottles, trash, stuff thrown at us and also on two occasions had a driver merge towards us squeezing us and clipping one rider was when I have been with a group. On all these occasions (~6 total) the group was single file and fully within the BL on weekend mornings with light traffic and a full unused lane adjacent to outer lane. I've never had anything like this on my daily solo commute in rush hour.
One time (after the swerving toward us and clipping a rider) the group caught the driver at the gas station. Some folks in the group confronted the driver, still in pickup he threw it in gear and drove right at some of them and they jumped away and were not hit . The gas station attendant sensed trouble and called the police. The cyclists told the story, the driver claimed the cyclists were mobbing him and threatening the driver (one did squirt water at them unfortunately after he drove toward them the second time) but the guy was never cornered nor surrounded. The police said they would write up the cyclists involved in the confrontation for assault. They also said that as they were no witnesses he could not do anything about the 'alleged' close pass and clip. As to witnesses I don't know why the other cyclists could not act as them.

Al

When I group ride it is generally 2-5 cyclists... and as I indicated the respect part end "up to the point where there are enough cyclists to start using "too much road" in the minds of motorists."

Most of the time I am solo, and nearly all the negative events including having things thrown at me were when I was solo... of course there were the two Road class "incidents." Those were group rides... 6-8 people.

My observations is the opposite almost no honks when I am (was) a gutter bunny but a heck of a lot of right hooks. But once on a narrow road I was told to ride on the sidewalk (no sidewalk at that location) so I can see how it can happen as when I ride that road now I haven’t gotten a reaction. I still think there are some local social norms and infrastructure issues that determine how things like this work out.

Of course, the reality is, each area is unique.

sometimes, head, even if the lane is wide enough to be safely shared, being in a sharing position is not the optimal position due to traffic and road conditions. I think you are exhibiting some schizophrenia regarding lane position.
Are you incapable of following context, Beck? The context is where Gene "usually rides" -- in "traffic and road conditions" where most other cyclists ride further right.

At any rate, if you have a good reason to not be in the sharing position of a wide lane, then why would you move to the ambiguous right tire track position unless you're looking for reasons to be honked at? If you need to control the lane, then control the lane, and be clear about it.

When the lane is wide enough there is generally a BL... so as I said, I tend to ride in those.

When the lane is narrow I don't take the middle as that is where the grease is, I don't ride in the left tire track as that would position me for a left destination, so the right tire track is the proper place.
The grease? On most roads around here it is barely visible. At any rate, there is plenty of room between the very center between the tracks (where the grease is) and either tire track.

If you're on the right tire track in a narrow lane, you're asking to be honked at. I'm thinking this topic deserves a dedicated thread.

head, get off your soapbox. sometimes a right tire track IS far enough left to control the lane. you don't realize that either? :roflmao:

Won't disagree with you in general terms . . . but, when a poster gets specific, and we look at the conditions present in a specific location, whether or not the offending driver in this specific situation can make that judgment call is, IMO, less pertinent than the judgment exercised by the cyclist, who, in this case, seems quite mum concerning details that precipitated this incident.

Looking at photos of the location, I can see why no great defense is offered by the OP.

This thread certainly is not about cycling safety or advocacy.

Caruso

The OP stated somewhere earlier that it's safer to ride the length of the bridge on the roadway than to try and merge back onto the roadway from the pedestrian walkway after the bridge.

Somewhere close to the right tire track???

If the lane is wide enough to be safely shared, why are you as far left as the right tire track?

to maximize visibility to hazards ahead. one of your A&S arguments. :roflmao: you DO realize you are arguing the exact oppposite of this, contradicting yourself in the thread where you fail miserably at trying to school Robert Hurst right now? what a buffooon.....

The difference is HH is always telling Bek "I don't know what you're doing wrong. When I act like a vehicle, I get smiles and waves."

That implies that Helmet Head DOESN'T get honks, the bird, and run off the road.

So maybe the truth is sometimes Helmet Head gets smiles and waves, and sometimes he gets the bird? If so, why tell others here "I don't know what you're doing wrong"?

yeah, head is a tool. He gets harassed just like the rest of us; however, he is compelled to pretend he's got the magic keys to bicycling bliss in heavy traffic. what a tool. I think he's overcompensating for his shrouded fear of traffic.

a new slogan...."VC-sometimes you get the bird and worse! be prepared to alter course"

Experienced cyclists have told me I'm crazy for commuting along La Jolla Village Drive (6+ lanes, 45 mph speed limit, freeway interchange, etc). Indeed, few cyclists ride there. But it's my regular commute which I've been doing for 7 or 8 years now. The number of times I've had problems (honks, etc.) in all those years I can count on my hand.

It might be helpful to clarify, by hostile I am not implicating anything about how safe the road is or is not to bike, just the likelihood of a driver expressing their displeasure on finding a cyclist on the road. To help clarify what might be a hostile road it would be beneficial to first examine the characteristics of a bike friendly road:

Space for a cyclist to get out of the way of cars (e.g. WOL and shoulders.)
or
Frequent opportunity for a motorist to pass a cyclist (e.g. low traffic roads and multi lane roads.)

So a hostile road does not have any of these characteristics or scores low and there is a nearby bike "facility" such as a sidewalk or bike path.

That's not the real question at hand, it's a separate question.
Most cyclists in San Diego would say La Jolla Village Drive falls into that inherently hostile category,

So your La Jolla Village Drive does not qualify as a potential hostile road, intimidating for some cyclists, yes but hostile, no. The question is what causes motorist to honk and I strongly believe that there are other factors involved besides the cyclist’s behavior.

I would not be surprised if the frequency of hostility varied among roads, but that doesn't mean the frequency is every high enough to warrant being "inherently hostile" to the extent of being "too difficult or hostile for bicycling."

Again "inherently hostile" means a high likelihood of honks or verbal harassment. Some cyclists can tolerate this and others can have a hard time dealing with it. But the point under discussion can (frequent) honking be the result of road conditions and not the cyclist’s (mis)behavior?

Since the "VC elite" tend to not encounter such problems (too many honks), there is not much discussion about it. It's like asking a 4 year old how much candy is too much.

Or is it like asking a 4 year old what is a good wine? Some things are just outside the normal experience of most cyclists no mater how we classify them. We all gravitate to the more comfortable roads and in general the average cyclist uses the same roads over and over again. The main road by my house motorists had a lot to say when I first started taking my bike to the street now nothing. And it has slowly turned from a car only road to a road with cyclist and pedestrians. I think things have changed because me, my kids and their friends are out there almost daily.

There are a lot of things to consider, such as is a high frequency of honking to be expected as the first cyclist tries to reclaim their rights to a given road? And is this a different experience then what the VC elite encounter on a daily basis?

My opinion is daily is way too frequent, and even weekly probably indicates there is considerable room for improvement in cyclist behavior.

Mileage or time out not a consideration? Over the summer I was doing 300-500 miles a week. So in a little over a month I put on what the average cyclists does in a year. So a honk every other day for me is almost like a honk once a month for the average cyclists.

If I stick to the tried and true paths trodden by most cyclists, motorist harassment is not an issue. And if a cyclist complained about being harassed frequently on these routes I too would wonder about their behavior but when I venture out to uncharted territory harassment can be an issue on some roads.

head, get off your soapbox. sometimes a right tire track IS far enough left to control the lane. you don't realize that either? :roflmao:
Of course the right tire track is often far enough left to control the lane, you're in the normal path of motor vehicle traffic! Are you really still missing the point? Just because you're far enough left to physically control the lane, does not mean you're far enough left to make it clear to motorists that that is what you are intentionally doing. That's often (no always) why they honk. They think you don't know what you're doing, and want you to move out of the way. Of course if you're even further left they might still honk, but it's far less likely (please try your best to try to understand this point in terms of likelihoods and not absolutes - I know it's hard, but you can do it if you try).

Were you in the right tire track when you were crossing the bridge?

Perhaps the difference is the road I am thinking of is so narrow as to be impossible to share side by side even if several inches from curb. Drivers must merge partly into adjacent lane no matter where the cyclist positions themselves.
I was trying to say I consider your observations valid but very rare here. Partly because most Marylanders are very comfortable driving a few feet over the double yellow into oncoming traffic in order to pass a cyclist.

It might be helpful to clarify, by hostile I am not implicating anything about how safe the road is or is not to bike, just the likelihood of a driver expressing their displeasure on finding a cyclist on the road. To help clarify what might be a hostile road it would be beneficial to first examine the characteristics of a bike friendly road:

Space for a cyclist to get out of the way of cars (e.g. WOL and shoulders.)
or
Frequent opportunity for a motorist to pass a cyclist (e.g. low traffic roads and multi lane roads.)

So a hostile road does not have any of these characteristics or scores low and there is a nearby bike "facility" such as a sidewalk or bike path.
That is the basically the definition I understood.



So your La Jolla Village Drive does not qualify as a potential hostile road, intimidating for some cyclists, yes but hostile, no. The question is what causes motorist to honk and I strongly believe that there are other factors involved besides the cyclist’s behavior.
Well, it is multi lane, but because the speeds are so high (50+) and volumes are high at commute time I think it's fair to say it scores low enough to qualify.


Again "inherently hostile" means a high likelihood of honks or verbal harassment. Some cyclists can tolerate this and others can have a hard time dealing with it. But the point under discussion can (frequent) honking be the result of road conditions and not the cyclist’s (mis)behavior?

I'm not ready to accept your premise that the conditions are totally inherent and independent of cyclist behavior. Even on a busy/fast 2 lane road, with a mirror the adept cyclist can communicate solidarity through body language and carefully timed subtle lateral adjustments in a way that defuses frustration and mitigates potential rage. Sorry to be so touchy-feely about it, but I believe this stuff comes out naturally when the cyclist truly thinks and feels, deep down, like an equal: a vehicle driver.


Or is it like asking a 4 year old what is a good wine? Some things are just outside the normal experience of most cyclists no mater how we classify them. We all gravitate to the more comfortable roads and in general the average cyclist uses the same roads over and over again. The main road by my house motorists had a lot to say when I first started taking my bike to the street now nothing. And it has slowly turned from a car only road to a road with cyclist and pedestrians. I think things have changed because me, my kids and their friends are out there almost daily.

All I can tell you is almost all San Diego cyclists can name roads in San Diego that they avoid, and I can't, because there are no such roads for me. That of course does not mean that there might be a road somewhere that I would choose to avoid due to hostility factors, but I seriously doubt it.


There are a lot of things to consider, such as is a high frequency of honking to be expected as the first cyclist tries to reclaim their rights to a given road? And is this a different experience then what the VC elite encounter on a daily basis?

Again, there is a certain undefinable VC panache, if you will, that truly seems to calm drivers even in the most hostile situations. It's a matter of communicating "I know what what I'm doing, I know you're there, and I'll get out of your way ASAP" smartly and efficiently, and before they get annoyed. It's not 100%, of course, but it's good enough, so far as I know, to make any surface street friendly for vehicular cycling.


Mileage or time out not a consideration? Over the summer I was doing 300-500 miles a week. So in a little over a month I put on what the average cyclists does in a year. So a honk every other day for me is almost like a honk once a month for the average cyclists.

If I stick to the tried and true paths trodden by most cyclists, motorist harassment is not an issue. And if a cyclist complained about being harassed frequently on these routes I too would wonder about their behavior but when I venture out to uncharted territory harassment can be an issue on some roads.
What are some examples of these streets in what areas? I can try to find some VC advocates and/or LCIs that can address riding on them from personal experience, if you'd like.

to maximize visibility to hazards ahead. one of your A&S arguments. :roflmao: you DO realize you are arguing the exact oppposite of this, contradicting yourself in the thread where you fail miserably at trying to school Robert Hurst right now? what a buffooon.....
Beck, I am most certainly not arguing that Robert should have been riding in the right tire track in that thread. That would be a minor adjustment of a couple of feet, and would hardly make any difference in terms of improving sight lines or buffer space, given his far left position in the bike lane.

Once again, I must hope you pay much better attention on the road than you do in these forums.

what a buffoon you are, head.

you're an apologist for angry motorists, this thread has you condoning honking at bicyclists,

and you think you communicate 'solidarity' to motorists thru 'body language'

:roflmao:

Can't help but argue about your deeply entrenched fear of traffic in every thread, eh, Head?

you have no idea what you're 'arguing about' except trying to assert your 'head knows best' delusions onto this forum.

Can't you keep your cockamamie lane positioning delusions out of threads it's not appropriate in? If you continue derailing this thread, I'm going to report you (again) for repeatedly derailing threads, hosebag.

get off your soapbox.

This thread is about a road rage incident that made the news, and is counterpoint to the 'waves and smiles' fallacy that gets bandied about in this forum.

AS the thread progressed, joejack, littlebigman, head and others usually in the 'I get smiles and waves here in Mayberry" have all confirmed taking the lane doesn't get a bicyclist parity with all motorists, and they have been victims of road rage themselves - all for simply taking the lane.-

A NEW VC SLOGAN pieced togther from the admittances in this thread

"VC-sometimes you get the bird and worse! be prepared to slow, stop, or alter course"

"VC-sometimes you get the bird and worse! be prepared to slow, stop, or alter course"
Indeed, yielding to drunk drivers and ragers is integral to defensive driving, Beck. Time you learned, Beck: don't engage; back off.

"Undefinable VC panache". Wow. Just wow. I was going to comment on "VC elite", but why bother? No need to point out HH's smugness than he already has...

A pic of HH bike "hostile" road:
57844
(Google Maps Street View)

Indeed, yielding to drunk drivers and ragers is integral to defensive driving, Beck. Time you learned, Beck: don't engage; back off.


Don't play 'edumacator', newbie.

Head, I've already stated in this thread I use a myriad of tools to ride in the midst of angry motorists: these are situationally dependant and include: smiles and waves, ignoring them, staying the course, moving further left, slowing or stopping, using the opposing lane, passing on the left, riding slower, using sidewalks, changing route, making a u-turn on a one way street, etc.


But thanks for illustrating the fallacies in your incessant 'act like a vehicle and the motorists smile and wave' prattle.....

the reality- affirmed in this thread by stalwart defenders of the Bike Forums 'traffic parity' club of little big man, helmet head, noisbeam, joejack, and others is actually...

"VC-sometimes you get the bird and worse! you will get treated like a second class road user, be prepared to slow, stop, or alter course"

Did someone say panache and ragin cajun (http://edition.cnn.com/CNN/anchors_reporters/carville.james.html)?
Sorry - couldn't help it. I think of Carville whenever I see the ragin cager title.

Panache. I think you guys should be wearing fedoras instead of your helmets.

Panache. I think you guys should be wearing fedoras instead of your helmets.

What about those silk neckerchief things you wear under your shirt collar?

fedoras and cravats- secret weapons of the VC arsenal, showing a little panache along with the buttwaggles to show those drivers YOU MEAN BUSINESS.

a new slogan of the 'traffic parity' A&S crewe

"Panache, insouciance, eyebrow raises- some motorists will STILL disrespect you and treat you like a second class road user. Be prepared to slow, stop, or alter course."

Wow.

Bek, the "more saddle, less prattle" admonishment is gold...I love it!

As for the VC panache, well, I'm struck with an even greater sense of awe...we are truly in the midst of a remarkable and stunning delusion of grandeur right here in our own forums!

I'll admit that I stopped wearing a helmet recently because the one on this message board gave me too much of a headache.

Panache. I think you guys should be wearing fedoras instead of your helmets.

I like fedoras. If they were more aerodynamic, I would ride with one.

A beret would be more apropos, non c'est pas?

Beks glad you're OK. You know slapping that window must have put the driver self defense mode, because they felt threatened in their SUV by you. That's why the swerve happened. Glad you are alright man

A pic of HH bike "hostile" road:
57844
(Google Maps Street View)
Per your definition it's hostile at commute times, and it's arguably more hostile about a half mile west of there, and a quarter mile east.

More importantly, most local cyclists consider it "hostile".

I, of course, do not. But that's because I ride with panache, the VC verve, if you will. ;)

A pic of HH bike "hostile" road:

Let's see your bike "hostile" roads.

A beret would be more apropos, non c'est pas?

Hmmmm, my French is poor ... non c'est pas == "is it not?" ... but I am a little confused with the extra "not" in front.

... regardless, a beret would be more appropriate. However, as a jazz guy I would stick with the fedora.

:)