"Undefinable VC panache". Wow. Just wow. I was going to comment on "VC elite", but why bother? No need to point out HH's smugness than he already has...
If you VC Contrarians think derision makes me back off, you're not very good at learning, but we've already established that.
It's not just lane positioning, but that vehicular cyclists evoke a certain je ne sais quoi when riding that makes drivers much more likely to treat us respectfully. It probably has to do with vehicular cyclists respecting the drivers of vehicles around them as fellow human beings with equal rights to travel on the roads, and reflecting this respect with body language, subtle lateral adjustments, etc.
When others see that you treat them with respect, they are likely to do so in return.
And to tie this post in with the OP, I don't think it's a coincidence that Beck expresses very little respect for motor vehicle drivers, to the contrary, and this is very likely to be manifested in his riding, and often sensed by drivers.
Bekologist
11-02-07, 04:14 PM
ah, the great armchair cyclist puts us all to shame! his respect of traffic, his joie de vie.....
ChezJfrey
11-02-07, 05:08 PM
It's kind of ironic.... This fella and a couple of other verbal ragin' cagers in the last couple of years have made claims of them "being bicyclists too" but it appears that rage behind the wheel at bicyclists taking the lane, and occasionally riding a bicycle for recreation are not mutually exclusive.
Actually, this doesn't surprise me. I'm a member of a running club and we've had a discussion about some of the recent cycling-related deaths here in Portland. I was surprised that so many of our running club members (many that even cycle fairly frequently) hold the same view - bikes don't belong on the road. But, it makes some sense that recreational cyclists that spend much of their time on recreational paths, off the road and out of the way, would expect all other cyclists to remain out of motorist's way. And even though I spend much time running on the road and deal with similar situations as I would on a bike, many of these runners do not - they run on trails, tracks, out-of-the-way spots, so they're still inclined to hold motorist views when they are on the roadway system.
Another bit of biking quandry...if the runner is driving a car, they want the bicycles on the sidewalk because they're too slow. But, if the runner is running on the sidewalk, they want the bikes off the sidewalk because the machines and their operators are a menace.
Below, is one member's response to a comment made by another runner/daily cycle commuter I know:
Initial comment -
"Bikes have as much right to a lane when they need it as a Suburban does."
Response -
"If you're in the middle of the lane, using it like I use my car, then you had better be going the exact speed as I am going in my car. You'd better be hauling freakin' ass."
The common message is, of course, "Get out of the way or I'm gonna get angry!"
The entire discussion can be seen here: http://www.redlizardrunning.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7057
Bekologist
11-02-07, 05:15 PM
haven't you been following along, chezJfrey? ;) bicycling while wearing a fedora, issuing steely eyebrow raises while executing an insoucient buttwaggle (with a skosh of panache) will take care of that "GET OUT OF MY WAY" attitude..... don't you see, helemet head knows all from the great bicycling armchair?
Some motorists will always disrespect you, despite one's self-delusions of traffic 'panache' :roflmao:
LittleBigMan
11-02-07, 06:38 PM
you guys are all really examples of how cycling energizes us for every task
:p
The Human Car
11-02-07, 08:23 PM
Per your definition it's hostile at commute times, and it's arguably more hostile about a half mile west of there, and a quarter mile east.
More importantly, most local cyclists consider it "hostile".
I, of course, do not. But that's because I ride with panache, the VC verve, if you will. ;)
Per my definition your road is NOT hostile as it is multi-lane. Per your description it is NOT hostile as honking is infrequent. This is another useless HH derailment. Irregardless of the adjective of choice among the local cyclists per definitions in this sub-thread the road in question is just intimidating.
Here is a local road that is near equivalent to HH’s road. It is an intimidating but non-hostile road (the locals here would call it bike hostile) but I have gotten ZERO honks on this road.
57863
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=39.2902,-76.6277&ie=UTF8&ll=39.290203,-76.627697&spn=0.001127,0.002494&t=k&z=19&om=1
I repeat this is NOT a hostile road.
A local road (Falls Rd) that is hostile during evening rush hour (major spur to/from I-83 and opportunity to pass a cyclists can be 5 minutes apart during evening rush hour, 99% of cyclists are on the sidewalk and parking is 99% occupied.)
57865
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=39.3326,-76.6354&ie=UTF8&ll=39.3326,-76.6354&spn=0.002253,0.004989&t=k&z=18&om=1
Another hostile road during evening rush hour (Macarthur Blvd; overflow traffic from nearby Parkway and a sidepath.)
57866
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=38.945,-77.1188&ie=UTF8&ll=38.945,-77.1188&spn=0.001133,0.002494&t=k&z=19&om=1
Transcript of a local radio rant to demonstrate (some) local motorists view point: http://www.baltimorespokes.org/comment.php?mode=view&cid=80
Again I am using hostile to describe a rate that motorists express their displeasure of a cyclist being in the road which is higher then usual and has little to nothing to do with being able to safely bike the road (just makes the road unpleasant in my book.)
Yah, only you and JF think that there are only 3-5 VCers on this forum, just because some of us have some issues on the topic of JF speaking ex cathedra.
randya
11-02-07, 08:26 PM
only 10 people viewing A&S, y'all have scared them away.
are we done here yet?
The Human Car
11-02-07, 08:41 PM
It’s a Friday at 10:30 PM and you expect more people here with no life???
randya
11-02-07, 08:42 PM
you said it not me
;)
I've got to work early in the AM is my excuse
:p
Bekologist
11-02-07, 08:56 PM
I'm curious how my 'lack of respect' is exhibited to motorists behind me if taking the lane is my decision for my safety...oh, right, I'm not far enough left....or am I too far left in a shareable lane? What, am I wearing the wrong fedora?
head, i likely exhibit more respect for traffic than your 'fear from the rear' method that has you slowing down overtaking traffic.... what gives? what's with that lack of respect?
well, the horse seems fully flogged. I posted this thread to showcase the fallacious 'smile and waves' lauded onto bicyclists taking the lane.
And the VC smiles and waves crewe -HH, joejack, noisebeam, steve G, all have pitched in their anecdotes about lack of respect heaped onto them while riding vehicularily.
Thanks, guys! you affirmed my contention there are jackass motorists everywhere, regardless of ones' choice of fedora. but head incessantly, delusionally posits he's got 'the lock' on the ability to hypnotize motorists into complacency with his insoucience and verve.
(I think it's really because hed's normally behind the wheel of a car, and not riding his bicycle much, except in crewes of LCI groupies and wannabes, on the Saturday club ride & rolling with his daughter in defuser mode on the trail-a-bike on sundays)
Allister
11-02-07, 09:19 PM
If you VC Contrarians think derision makes me back off, you're not very good at learning, but we've already established that.
Oh the irony.
It's not just lane positioning, but that vehicular cyclists evoke a certain je ne sais quoi when riding that makes drivers much more likely to treat us respectfully. It probably has to do with vehicular cyclists respecting the drivers of vehicles around them as fellow human beings with equal rights to travel on the roads, and reflecting this respect with body language, subtle lateral adjustments, etc.
When others see that you treat them with respect, they are likely to do so in return.
That is exactly how I ride, Serge. So, o wise one, how do you explain this (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=356948)? Your silence on that thread was deafening.
Some people are just arrogant, selfish pricks, Serge, no matter what you do, and any lane position other than 'out of my way' is a reason to rant. Not everyone is as rational as we are.
randya
11-02-07, 09:30 PM
how do you explain this (http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=356948)? Your silence on that thread was deafening.
sorry allister, but we all know serge only has the hots for bek
;)
Bekologist
11-02-07, 10:43 PM
Let me try to sum up this thread by paraphrasing, and I apologize to those posters I may not have given credit to....
Bekologist- hey, road rage incident. Check it out, it made the newspaper. It's not all smiles and waves out there.
Noisebeam -look at my videos of road rage in action.
Joejack- happened to me last week. I had to stop, and I got on the sidewalk.
Little Big Man- just happened to me. I flipped the bird.
The Human Car - Yep, honks and harassment happen, some roads are worse
than others.
Steve G. - Taking the lane increases the frequency of honks and angry motorists.
Genec- I got honked at WITH Helemt Head on a ride when we were learning 'advanced' VC techniques.
Head- It's happened to me too, BUT YOU'RE ALL DOING IT WRONG!
donnamb
11-02-07, 11:10 PM
You forgot my recommendation for more fedoras.
Bekologist
11-02-07, 11:17 PM
:roflmao: my apologies, Donna.
Donnamb - more fedora!
The Human Car
11-02-07, 11:39 PM
You forgot my recommendation for more fedoras.
Good point.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/IndianaTempleDoom.jpg
A VC panache (HH?) getting ready to ride the “Road of Doom” honk free.
I-Like-To-Bike
11-03-07, 06:24 AM
Let's see your bike "hostile" roads.
The shoulder is not a suitable biking option due to its poor surface. Good lights and high visibility vests/t-shirts are my chief "hostility" reducers. VC Brand Panache and Dingbat Brand Theories don't cut it at all.
At night the unlit road looks like below except for headlights and taillights.
RobertHurst
11-03-07, 12:07 PM
The shoulder is not a suitable biking option due to its poor surface. Good lights and high visibility vests/t-shirts are my chief "hostility" reducers. VC Brand Panache and Dingbat Brand Theories don't cut it at all.
At night the unlit road looks like below except for headlights and taillights.
Clearly, all ILTB needs to do here is move to a 'lane controlling' postion and waggle his panache.
Robert
I-Like-To-Bike
11-03-07, 03:27 PM
Clearly, all ILTB needs to do here is move to a 'lane controlling' postion and waggle his panache.
Robert
You forgot about the most important technique - Vulcan Cycling Mind Control device of dynamic swerving while whistling California Dreaming!
ChezJfrey
11-03-07, 04:39 PM
These drivers never frown
They all smile so gay
I've been for a ride
On a hostile way
I'd be safe and sound
Even in L.A.
California Dreamin'
On a hostile way
Stepped up on the curb
I was passed too close today
Well, I got back on my bike
And I wiggle ass and sway
You know I preach the VC fold
It doesn't matter what I say
California Dreamin'
I've got panache today
These drivers never frown
They all smile so gay
I've been for a ride
On a hostile way
I hope that I can tell you
About power weave today
California Dreamin'
On such a hostile way
I hope that I can tell you
About power weave today
California Dreamin'
On such a hostile way
I hope that I can tell you
About power weave today
California Dreamin'
On such a hostile way
Blue Order
11-03-07, 06:21 PM
Bravo!
:lol:
If there was a bow down and worship smiley, I'd be using it!
donnamb
11-03-07, 07:38 PM
Yes, ChezJfrey, make yourself known at the next bikey event. You deserve a beer for your fine poetics. :beer:
Allister
11-03-07, 07:41 PM
Good point.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/IndianaTempleDoom.jpg
A VC panache (HH?) getting ready to ride the “Road of Doom” honk free.
And what says 'panache' more than a shiny sword?
I sure feel like I could use a shiny sword some days.
randya
11-03-07, 08:10 PM
And what says 'panache' more than a shiny sword?
I sure feel like I could use a shiny sword some days.
get a nice fake broadsword at a costume shop and sling it over your shoulder when you ride so it's prominently on display. Bigger is better. maybe get one of those horned norse helmets to wear as well
or get a handgun license and strap a real one on your hip, more likely in AZ than OZ i suppose...
:)
donnamb
11-03-07, 08:16 PM
Well, you're from Oz, Allister. We North Americans just can't pull off that much panache. :p ;)
RobertHurst
11-04-07, 02:02 PM
I still don't see how I twisted his words, or have taken something out of context. If the shoe fits...
Robert's sage advice is not meant to be some abstract concept with no practical value; I'm sure you agree. It has application in the real world, in the minds of real bicyclists, including Beck. I'm just saying I don't see his advice reflected in Beck's behavior or words. Slamming his fist on the ahole's window is hardly an example of hoarding responsibility and avoiding blaming others.
[...]
That advice on personal responsibility, owning your own destiny out there, was never meant to apply to deliberately hostile actions from drivers. That advice addresses the far more pressing concern of innatentive, distracted, blind, and just plain bad drivers. On the rare occasion that I have encountered a hostile motorist who has gone out of his way to teach me some sort of sick lesson, trying to scare me or whatever, I have not been inclined to turn the other cheek. Instead, I have found it difficult not to go after those *#@!$#@-*#!@$#*!s.
Robert
pj7
11-04-07, 04:08 PM
It's a matter of communicating "I know what what I'm doing, I know you're there, and I'll get out of your way ASAP"
I just love context.
Helmet Head
11-05-07, 04:41 PM
That advice on personal responsibility, owning your own destiny out there, was never meant to apply to deliberately hostile actions from drivers. That advice addresses the far more pressing concern of innatentive, distracted, blind, and just plain bad drivers. On the rare occasion that I have encountered a hostile motorist who has gone out of his way to teach me some sort of sick lesson, trying to scare me or whatever, I have not been inclined to turn the other cheek. Instead, I have found it difficult not to go after those *#@!$#@-*#!@$#*!s.
Robert
Well, thanks for clarifying the limited context in which you intended your advise to apply, Robert, but I'll continue to interpret its applications more expansively, including in terms of hoarding responsibility with respect to keeping potential rage situations from escalating. When you advise against leaving your fate to the drivers, I think it's odd to exclude the ragers from that. If anything, they're the last ones to whom I would want to leave my fate.
RobertHurst
11-05-07, 07:48 PM
Well, thanks for clarifying the limited context in which you intended your advise to apply, Robert, but I'll continue to interpret its applications more expansively, including in terms of hoarding responsibility with respect to keeping potential rage situations from escalating. When you advise against leaving your fate to the drivers, I think it's odd to exclude the ragers from that. If anything, they're the last ones to whom I would want to leave my fate.
I have found that road ragers are a pretty insignificant problem compared to the ongoing challenge posed by distracted or otherwise mistake-prone drivers.
Everybody makes mistakes. Drivers have a difficult time noticing cyclists, judging speed, etc. and we shouldn't be surprised when they don't do things right. Ideally, we shouldn't be angered by it either. We should just be ready.
But a driver deliberately aiming his car or truck at you trying to scare the s#%* out of you? That's different. I advise cyclists to respond to angry drivers, honkers and yellers, with a cool stoicism, to not meet irrational anger with more anger. But I'm not sure drivers who brandish their vehicles as weapons should be greeted with stoicism.
Robert
CB HI
11-05-07, 09:54 PM
... But a driver deliberately aiming his car or truck at you trying to scare the s#%* out of you? That's different. I advise cyclists to respond to angry drivers, honkers and yellers, with a cool stoicism, to not meet irrational anger with more anger. But I'm not sure drivers who brandish their vehicles as weapons should be greeted with stoicism.
RobertThose drivers are bullies. Bullies are/become cowards when someone stands up to them. Either stand up to them or get the legal system to put them in jail; whichever you are comfortable with.
fordfasterr
11-06-07, 07:15 AM
Those drivers are bullies. Bullies are/become cowards when someone stands up to them. Either stand up to them or get the legal system to put them in jail; whichever you are comfortable with.
easier said than done.
as you should know by now, if someone pulls a stunt like that and you call the cops - it's he-said-she-said and nobody gets in trouble.
I wonder how long the effects of mace last ? Will I have time to get away before the maced cager can call the cops on me? LOL
flipped4bikes
11-06-07, 09:20 AM
Those drivers are bullies. Bullies are/become cowards when someone stands up to them. Either stand up to them or get the legal system to put them in jail; whichever you are comfortable with.
Been there. Got assaulted and the legal system failed to do anything about it.
The Human Car
11-06-07, 10:03 AM
A gross oversimplification of the legal system is the one who does a bad thing last is the one that is charged. So you really need to be careful how you react. A couple of things I do for “revenge” is say “It looks like you have been pissing other people off as someone keyed your car. ” It’s a total lie but this really puts the fear of god into a lot of jerks as they know I could have done it and got away with it. Other times I wipe my “dirty” hands on the hood. And when they flip out I go “Tisk tisk, you think the shine on your car is more important then a human life. If you did hit me, your car would be a lot more messed up then this, be more careful next time, at least for your cars sake.”
sundaypunch
11-06-07, 03:42 PM
Those drivers are bullies. Bullies are/become cowards when someone stands up to them. Either stand up to them or get the legal system to put them in jail; whichever you are comfortable with.
Maybe that anonymous jerk playing games with you isn't a bully, but someone with an anger (or mental) problem. Standing up to one might work. It also might get you shot, run over, etc. Hopefully you guess correctly or are lucky when you decide to get in someone's face.
:)
CB HI
11-06-07, 06:17 PM
Even an old lady can teach an impatient bully a lesson.:eek:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vwxAVZ6fJ4
Did you note the air bag?:roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:
CB HI
11-06-07, 06:37 PM
Or maybe Mr. Bully will meet up with someone like this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh_gL7Az53o
BikEthan
11-08-07, 01:39 PM
taking the lane (in a narrow road) substantially reduces close passes from drivers who think they can edge past you...
And also reduces your risk of being doored on roads with cars parked on the right side. Keeping in mind that Boston streets are generally narrow and SNAFU I take a lane any time there are cars on the right side just to stay out of The Door Zone.