Folding Bikes - 16" wheel PERFORMANCE oriented purchase: DT Mini, Curve or C3E?

A Friend of mine is coming from Brazil for a short visit, and he wants to take with him a 16" wheel bike that, with mods, can have a nice gear inches for flat, aggressive performance. The original budget was US$500.00 with a couple hundreds later down the road for upgrades, but I know if there is an option that is significantly superior he can spend more than 500. He is 5'11" and about 175Pounds. Here are my ideas:

DT Mini: With time, change chainring for something bigger, upgrade stem for more roomie cockpit, upgrade tires, upgrade saddle;

PROS: within the budget, lots of room for upgrades, less proprietary parts if any, amazing brakes

CONS: Small wheelbase, ugly design compared to other competitors, nothing to keep the bike together once folded.




Curve D3: With time, upgrade saddle

PROS: Stylish design, amazing brakes, quick release stem allow different handlebars without compromsing fold

CONS: Not a lot of room for upgrades: can't fit bigger chainring. Short wheelbase, lots of proprietary parts.


Brompton C3E: With time, upgrade stem/handlebar to S-Type, upgrade chainwheel to bigger size, upgrade brakes, upgrade saddle with pentaclip

PROS: Best wheel base riding geometry of all bikes mentioned. Only model known to do well on 1000km+ events. Steel frame allowing serious repairs to occur in remote areas.

Cons: at least twice the original budget, poor brakes


Please give me your wise advice. I am not mentioning rear racks and fenders because that's not really important. My friend wants a reliable, fast paced bike that can, once unfolded, be aggressive and fast enough to scare roadies and once folded, fit on his lap while riding the subway, bus, getting a cab or just taking it with him inside buildings. Ideal gear inches would be high 90s. Travelling with the bike without major disassembly is a nice plus.


I personally believe the DT Mini is the winner, but I would like to hear from other people before making my suggestion.

I've had my Mini now for 10 days or so and have ridden it on my commute of 56km round trip. That makes a lot of distance in a short time frame, so any issues will tend to come out quickly.

So here is my 2c: My Mini is slow. My initial estimate was 'a few %' slower than my R20. After a few days I upped that to 5%. After today I am thinking it might be more than that, perhaps 10%, but that's about the order of things. It's hard to tell without doing it under controlled conditions. But I have no doubt whatsoever that it's a lot slower than my R20.

My Swift is about 5-10% faster than the R20 again. My Swift is a very fast bike indeed, IMHO it easily holds it own among fast roadies.

So that makes the Mini 10-20% slower than roadies. After a week of commuting with it I wouldn't be so foolish as to try and race someone on a roadie.

Why is it slower? That is a very good question. I don't put much stock in the arguments that wheel size is it. Rather it is probably a combination of things:

1. Flexy steering riser: Any effort going into bending stuff is not likely to end up in forward motion, so that is some wasted effort.

2. Flexy seat post: Same argument as in 1.

3. Suspension: Same argument again. I have to lower my cadence to avoid bouncing, my natural cadence I estimate at around 90 or faster if I am hammering. If I try that on the Mini I have to concentrate really hard to avoid bouncing, and that is after I replaced the suspension spring with a Cane Creek elastomer which is a huge improvement but still not perfect, at least in part due to the suspension geometry where pedalling effort directly compresses the elstomer due to the hinge being behind the cranks.

4. Tyres: I am still running the original Kenda 'rim protectors', and am speculating that Big Apples will make a significant difference in speed.

5. SA 8sp hub: All the gears except 1 are step-up ratios, so that involves loss due to the gears running in the grease/gel that is used for lube. Due to the fact the the Mini has less gear-inches than my R20, I run in a higher gear which to my reasoning is therefore less efficient for the same speed. Soon I will put on a bigger chainring to solve that issue.

Aside from those issues, I have lengthened the stem to 100mm and that improves cockpit room. I am waiting for a 120mm one to dial in the position perfectly. I will also saw off the steering riser to allow the bars to be level with the saddle or slightly lower. At the moment they can't go lower.

For the record I am 5'10 and 165#.

Having said all that, the Mini IS a blast to ride. The longer stem cancelled any tendency to have squirrely steering. Today on my commute I got 70km/h on one downhill, and I didn't feel I was pushing my luck.

A Friend of mine is coming from Brazil for a short visit, and he wants to take with him a 16" wheel bike that, with mods, can have a nice gear inches for flat, aggressive performance.

For "aggressive performance" in that approximate wheel size, I'd also look at a Birdy ... extremely well engineered, beautifully built, the suspension will allow faster speeds when the roads get a little rough, plenty of gear range, lots of cockpit room, folds neatly and doesn't flop around when folded..

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1101/1277082131_9601522175.jpg

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1336/1278036882_7a6952bd35.jpg

I vote for the Mini. I don't think the Brompton would offer sporty, performance riding. The Curve is limited in gearing and upgradeability. Too bad the Birdy is not in the price range.

I think faster tires would make a big difference. You'd also have to stiffen up or get rid of the rear suspension. I concur with Jur's write-up above.

Bottom line is that most 16" folders are not built for performance. They're more for cruising. So, there's going to be some compromising. But, tell your friend that they are FUN riding!

Edit: I wonder if the Capreo version of the Mini would be more aggressive...

Too bad the Birdy is not in the price range.



But, but, that Yellow one is only a very few hundred over initial budget, and wouldn't need extra bucks tossed at it for performance upgrades... upgrades which might not get you as fast a bike as the stock Birdy..:D

Can the Birdy fit inside internationally accepted lugagge with minor disassembly (remove pedals, deflate tires and go.)?

Can the Birdy fit inside internationally accepted lugagge with minor disassembly (remove pedals, deflate tires and go.)?

Pretty Much (http://www.gaerlan.com/bikes/birdy/birdypk.htm) ;).. even though it might take a little longer to pack/unpack, once at your destination, you end up with a bike that has a solid, hingeless mainframe and excellent ride capability..

Takes me about 10-15" to pack into an Oyster. (Though I'm using a Bike Friday trailer, so I now will have to cram that in as well.) This involves removing both wheels and the seatpost. I only need to remove one pedal, but generally put on MKS pedals when travelling just to make it easier, since I have to pack and unpack multiple times. You could *probably* just drop the bike into an F'lite with a little padding, but I've never tried.

Regarding performance, the bike is the fastest thing I've ever ridden. I average 20 MPH on it and a little slower on a 105/Ultegra road bike with similar tires. However, you have to train yourself to pedal in a circular motion (the secret to Moulton riding as well). Also, I wouldn't be too aggressive on pulling on the bars because it does not have an elongated head tube. But that's just me.

I snapped my seatpost in half last week. I'm thus instantly less of a fan of bikes with super long seatpost tubes and super long stems.

You may be able to get a used one in good shape.

I snapped my seatpost in half last week.
You lead-arsed (http://sheldonbrown.org/moulton-deluxe.html) it over a bump, huh?

Well ... a modified SA-8 Mini can be pretty quick. Definitely not as fast as the Bike Friday nor my full sized bike. Maybe as quick as my older Trek hybrid.

Jur's summary is a good one. Particularly regarding the suspension and riding position. In my case, I already put on a 130 mm stem and tightened the suspension A LOT. The Big Apples improve performance considerably. I also think that the SA-8 hub is somewhat inefficient in the taller gears. I make this judgment by comparing my perceived effort when spinning in gears with close to identical theoretical gear inches on a particular stretch of my commute.

I think that the suggestion of a Birdy is a good one. While I don't own one, I have ridden them several times. Over at Black Dog Cycles they have the kit such that you can swap the present stem post for one that will let you attach an AHEAD-type stem. On their website, they are selling the Birdy Yellow or Red on $900.

EDIT: Forgot about the Mini Capreo. Performance-wise, I would go with that instead.

Ok,

I'm back to Florida and after a little research, here are a few issues:

1-Birdy might be a nice bike, but the process to make it trip-ready is excluding it as a candidate. For the kind of trip we will be doing, we may spend more time with tools putting the bike back together and tunning brakes and gears than actually riding it;

2-18" is non-existing in Brazil. Even to get a tube to fix a flat might become a quest.

3-If it wasn't all of that, US$900.00 is not US$500.00+ change.

Back to the original contenders: There are DT Minis (2007) Capreo on sale. Any non-paid review on those?

One extra issue on the Mini is the stem change - I found the handlebar to be non-standard; it is 7/8" in the middle instead of the customary 1". I had to make a shim in a hurry.

The Capreo Mini may be a better option than the SA one, if one considers the somewhat finicky performance of the SA shifting accuracy. It wouldn't be my personal choice though, as I prefer the SA even with its idiosyncrasies. Packing the SA one would be more robust as well. But the Capreo might be better in efficiency.

I'd be tempted by the Capreo Mini too; you could put drop bars on that, with normal Shimano STI shifters, right? That would be nice. But take a close look at the gearing: if I understand it, the gear range is very low, like 24.8 - 71.8. You'd have to upgrade to a 56T chainring (which will give you 29 - 83.8 gear inches) for a reasonably close match to the SA Mini's 28.1 - 85.7.

I think all in all the Mini offers the best bike for the money and the most room for upgrades.

Back to the original contenders: There are DT Minis (2007) Capreo on sale. Any non-paid review on those?

What are the differences between the 2007 and 2008 Capreo Minis? I think that the rims are different. I recall that the stem is different. Everything else is the Capreo gruppo ... right?

I think $400 for the Mini with Capreo is attractively priced. Now you've got some money left for upgrades, too. Can you live with external derailleurs for all the travelling/packing you and your friend are planning?

You said there is a price limit of $500, but then listed the Birdy and Brompton that both come in around $1100.

At 5'11" (I'm also that size) I don't think that the Curve will fit well. It's a great bike and a nice simple design, but it really doesn't work well for taller folks. The top tube is just too short.

The Bike Friday Tikit is probably a good option that you haven't listed. The M and L sizes both fit me well (M is better for drop bars, L for flat bars) and performance is good. They are more expensive though at $1195. I prefer the Tikit to the Brompton because the fit is better for me, it fits like a normal bike. I also like that it uses standard components making upgrades very easy.

I have no experience with the DT Mini.

alex

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that all of the non-Birdy options have internal hubs. Using an IH is going to cost you a few watts right there. AFAIK, 16" wheels place the axle too low to the ground for a rear derailleur.

The trade-off is that the IH will be faster to pack and will need minimal maintenance & cleaning, which may or may not be important. But the reality is, no one makes a 16" folder to make it fast; they're made for very small folding.

Given the circumstances, I'd suggest that your friend get the DT Mini Capreo, and not worry if he's a little bit slower on it.

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that all of the non-Birdy options have internal hubs. Using an IH is going to cost you a few watts right there. AFAIK, 16" wheels place the axle too low to the ground for a rear derailleur.

The Tikit comes with a rear derailleur. I think the DT Mini is available either way. The Dahon Curve uses a 3sp hub, but those can be more efficient than derailleurs when lubed with oil (check HPVA issue 54).

alex

My friend decided to go with the 2008 Downtube Mini with SA internal Hub (the 07 Capreo bike had no adustable stem making the cockpit upgrade a little more difficult).

Now, where is the good source for Big Apples online?

a 3sp hub, but those can be more efficient than derailleurs when lubed with oil (check HPVA issue 54).

alexDid you maybe mean issue 52?
http://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf

My friend decided to go with the 2008 Downtube Mini with SA internal Hub (the 07 Capreo bike had no adustable stem making the cockpit upgrade a little more difficult).

Now, where is the good source for Big Apples online?

You can purchase a new stem base from Yan for $50. An aluminum tube to stick in there is pretty inexpensive too.

Or you can pick up a 2008 Capreo Mini with the ahead stem. If not from Yan then from Gaerlan.

It's a done deal, DT MINI 08 SA purchased. Now the quest for Big Apples start.

My friend decided to go with the 2008 Downtube Mini with SA internal Hub (the 07 Capreo bike had no adustable stem making the cockpit upgrade a little more difficult).

Now, where is the good source for Big Apples online?

http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/accessories/tires.htm

Yep, got it from Thor, thank you JM.

Please give me your wise advice. I am not mentioning rear racks and fenders because that's not really important. My friend wants a reliable, fast paced bike that can, once unfolded, be aggressive and fast enough to scare roadies and once folded, fit on his lap while riding the subway, bus, getting a cab or just taking it with him inside buildings

How many times is he going to board the bus? If it's less than 10 times a year, he would be better off getting a 20' inch folder. The bus is the ONLY reason you would want to get a 16' inch folder. Taxi cabs or trains would not be a problem for the 20' inch folder. There are a boat load of 20' inch folders that would give a faster pace than any 16' inch folder.


OH, I forgot to mention, I don't think you would want ANY of these folders on your lap for more than 2 minutes! Don't even think a 25 pound folder is comfortable on your lap because it's not! Talk about pain!!

Thank you DS, but he will be entering the bus about 20 times/week.

The Capreo Mini may be a better option than the SA one, if one considers the somewhat finicky performance of the SA shifting accuracy. It wouldn't be my personal choice though, as I prefer the SA even with its idiosyncrasies. Packing the SA one would be more robust as well. But the Capreo might be better in efficiency.


I think the shifting accuracy is due to the flexing frame. Yan should just build a solid frame to get ride of this problem.

I think the shifting accuracy is due to the flexing frame. Yan should just build a solid frame to get ride of this problem.I have been wondering if it is not due to the use of a helical coiled cable outer. Shimano started using cable outers with a more linear reinforcing due to the needed accuracy of indexed systems, and I know that the unit I bought from aebike also had one of those cables in it by SA, indicating that they also realise the need for a rigorous linear length cable outer. I don't think it can be frame flex due to the particular shifter system design - it's designed to be independant of frame and wheel movement. You can set the chain tension without affecting shifter adjustment.

Now, where is the good source for Big Apples online?

I got mine from Thor USA
http://www.thorusa.com/dahon/accessories/tires.htm

To keep the bike together when folded I use Velcro One-Wrap tape to hold it together. It comes in a 12 foot roll. I buy it at my local hardware store and usually cut it into 20 to 30 cm strips. Great stuff, strong and it seems to last forever.
http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39165898&memberId=12500226

I think the shifting accuracy is due to the flexing frame. Yan should just build a solid frame to get ride of this problem.

I went from the stock setup on my IX FS to a SRAM X.0 twist shifter and a SRAM X.9 short cage rear derailler. It made all the difference in the world as far as shifting. I'm using the same cable housings. I also tweaked the derailler hanger to make things line up a bit better.

My Downtube shifts really nicely right now. I initially thought that the frame flex was part of the deal, but I'm convinced otherwise now.

You lead-arsed (http://sheldonbrown.org/moulton-deluxe.html) it over a bump, huh?

The one time I would have been happier with steel rather than aluminium!

I bruised my right wrist fairly badly, and ripped the glove off. It still smarts after 2 weeks. The distributor just sent the seatpost after 2 weeks and didn't reimburse my shipping costs. But they did give me a new stem at cost and the seatpost for free.

Today, I had a fierce tailwind and was chopping along at 27 on my way to work. I must say, I'm now a bit more nervous about riding along at higher speeds. I would have enjoyed pushing it 2 weeks ago.

Ok,

I'm back to Florida and after a little research, here are a few issues:

1-Birdy might be a nice bike, but the process to make it trip-ready is excluding it as a candidate. For the kind of trip we will be doing, we may spend more time with tools putting the bike back together and tunning brakes and gears than actually riding it;

2-18" is non-existing in Brazil. Even to get a tube to fix a flat might become a quest.

3-If it wasn't all of that, US$900.00 is not US$500.00+ change.

Back to the original contenders: There are DT Minis (2007) Capreo on sale. Any non-paid review on those?

1 is probably a non-issue with a F'lite. Though it is no Brompton!

2 is a non-issue as it takes 16" tubes, provided that they are 349mm Brompton size. I have used a 305mm tube in a pinch, but will never go through that again!

3 is a big issue! The bike will last forever and has a good resale, but $900 is not cheap. Also, small wheeled tires wear out faster, so you are replacing Stelvios every 1000 miles or so. The Brompton Yellows seem to roll reasonably well and last longer. So, going 355mm is an additional cost on the performance tire side of the equation.

But the reality is, no one makes a 16" folder to make it fast; they're made for very small folding.

I would have to disagree; the Moulton is probably the fastest bike out there. (OK, not a folder, but...) If I were a rich person, I would be riding a Bridgestone Moulton when I didn't need to fold.

and they are on their merry way :-)

Thank you Thor. Those Big Apples will ride through some amazing places. My friend that got the Mini is a good partner in crime (also single) and together we will have some stories to tell in a near future.

Brief Upgrade: The Bike arrived, one day before scheduled. Once again thank you Yan for always exceeding my expectations.

The Downtube Mini is a very nice 16" wheeled folder. if it wasn't for the folded size and ability to stay neatly folded, this bike (after a few upgrades) is very comparable with a Brompton.To make it perfect for my friend we will need:

1- More cockpit room (fixable with a new stem from LBS);

2-Bigger chainring (the bike is w a y undergeared for his needs. Fixable with a 54 chainring from gaerlan);

3-Less bouncy suspension (fixable in about 45 seconds after we instal the Big apples tires and adjust suspension)

I had a nice performance saddle seating around tha treplaced the original one. We are on our way to the LBS tomorrow to buy some not-so-necessary upgrades as well (flat handlebar, brake levers).

The good thing is that the bike arrived on time, in perfect conditions and exceeded our expectations in every level. None of the "problems" we face are actual problems, just personal preferences that can easily be altered by a local bike shop.

Yan, prepare some manuals in Portuguese and be ready to ship a container of Minis to Brazil. This Summer it will be a fever down there after this Friday, when my friend takes his bike with him back to Rio de Janeiro!

EDIT:

Picture now available

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2278/1930261498_79be547aef.jpg

I know the purchase has been made, and the price is way more than 500 dollars,however I upgraded a Mezzo to 1/18 tyres, sram dual drive hub , 27 speed shimano 105 sti on cut down dropped bars. This bike preforms fantastically for fast ridding in traffic or the open road. By purchasing used kit this bike cost less than 600 English pounds. To give an idea of ride speed it is much faster than my Brompton, but not quite as good handling, or as fast as my 20 inch Downtube that has simular upgrades, although it is much lighter than the DT. I have not riden a DT mini, but would imagine it would be slower than a standard Downtube NS8.

The mezzo did take a lot of thought and fiddling to find adjustments so the dropped bars folded compactly.

To give an idea of ride speed it is much faster than my Brompton, but not quite as good handling, .....

Really ? I'm amazed. I've had two standard Bromptons in the past and now have a Mezzo, and it handles way better then either of the Bromptons, it's sure footed, goes round corners like a train, and isn't at all twitchy (although Snafu managed to come a cropper on it along the Serpentine Beach Rd !).

Maybe you should have left the standard tires on it ?

I know the purchase has been made, and the price is way more than 500 dollars,however I upgraded a Mezzo to 1/18 tyres, sram dual drive hub , 27 speed shimano 105 sti on cut down dropped bars. This bike preforms fantastically for fast ridding in traffic or the open road. By purchasing used kit this bike cost less than 600 English pounds. To give an idea of ride speed it is much faster than my Brompton, but not quite as good handling, or as fast as my 20 inch Downtube that has simular upgrades, although it is much lighter than the DT. I have not riden a DT mini, but would imagine it would be slower than a standard Downtube NS8.

The mezzo did take a lot of thought and fiddling to find adjustments so the dropped bars folded compactly.

Dude why do you keep on reviving year-old threads just to promote your Mezzo? Do you work for them?

Dude why do you keep on reviving year-old threads just to promote your Mezzo? Do you work for them?

i doubt it...didn't they went out of business? i dont see anywhere in the usa where u can buy one...maybe on ebay in the uk? i know flamingo owns them now..but its in taiwan...wonder how much they go for?

Just as Alex says: if you're looking at Brompton, you should definitely be looking at the Tikit. Much more easily customizable, handles much better, can be outfitted with Capreo, internal hub combinations, whatever you need to get a good top-end (the default _will_ require modification to get a better top end).

"Fold on his Lap" is going to be a problem for you. I don't think there are *any* performance folders which will be Brompton/Curve sized. If you're insisting on 16", the Tikit is probably the most customizable-for-performance one you're going to get.

...


a 16" wheel bike
can have a nice gear inches for flat, aggressive performance.
original budget was US$500.00 with a couple hundreds later down the road for upgrades but ... can spend more than 500.
5'11" and about 175 pounds
rear racks and fenders ... not really important. ...
reliable
fast paced ... aggressive and fast enough to scare roadies
fit on his lap while riding the subway, bus, getting a cab or just taking it with him inside buildings.
Ideal gear inches would be high 90s.
Travelling with the bike without major disassembly is a nice plus.




Scary to behold, fits in your lap, and $500? Your friend doesn't (didn't) want much. ;)

The Mini isn't going to scare anyone, though that green at dusk can give you the creeps.
The Brompton can look as brash as a greyhound but not menacing; doubles your starting budget.

If you're limiting your choices to bikes readily available in the US, and the money on the upgrade can be spent up front, you might also consider the Dahon Curve SL with the Shimano Nexus hub.

If you can forego the transit-folder requirements (and so the 16" wheels), the Swift is a contender; its industry-standard dimensions allow it to become almost anything. Behold the VeloMorph. Scary.

Regards
T

This is a zombie thread.

This is a zombie thread.

jur, you're so time-bound. This is the internet, baby. There are always new visitors coming down the pike. If this were a mythical-sex advice-forum, and the OP had asked "What is the proper way to perform a Brompton with a vestal virgin on midsummer's eve?" would adding a few comments to the thread the following winter be pointless? The questions are perennial. :)

Regards
T

Dude why do you keep on reviving year-old threads just to promote your Mezzo? Do you work for them?

No I dont work for mezzo, sorry about using old threads perhaps I should pay more attention to their age.
I am not banging on about Mezzo's, but about the potential to upgrade them from my own experience.The standard bike is good, but I have achived my perfect bike cheaply by doing the road racer type upgrade mentioned. That is what I would like to share !! Its is not an upgrade proposed by Mezzo or proberbly recommended by them, nor would it appeal to everyone.

...The standard bike is good, but I have achived my perfect bike cheaply by doing the road racer type upgrade mentioned. That is what I would like to share !!

Please share it! Thats fine. A good idea is imho to post pictures and explanations at the "name your bike" thread.

Really ? I'm amazed. I've had two standard Bromptons in the past and now have a Mezzo, and it handles way better then either of the Bromptons, it's sure footed, goes round corners like a train, and isn't at all twitchy (although Snafu managed to come a cropper on it along the Serpentine Beach Rd !).

Maybe you should have left the standard tires on it ?

Must proof read my entries better!!

The modified Downtube handles better than my Modified mezzo (not by much), and both bikes handle much better than my Brompton.

I have changed the punctuation now.Thanks

Please share it! Thats fine. A good idea is imho to post pictures and explanations at the "name your bike" thread.

OK, will do. I am a new member, but I guess I should have learnt this by now.