Road tandem sizing for 6’1” captain and 6’1” stoker

[Annorlunda]

Hi! My friend and I are thinking of start riding tandem. We are planning to build a go-fast road tandem.
But since we both are newbies to tandem we wonder a bit over the correct sizing. We are both 6’1.2” (186cm).
We’ve read a lot of sizing treads but in the most cases the stoker are much shorter than the captain and it feels that most tandems have a geometry to fit that combination.

Our ordinary roadbikes are both in size 58 with 22.6” (57.5cm) HTT C-to-C and an overall reach of 27.6” (70cm).

Should the captain sizing be sized like a single bike? How about the stoker sizing? We would like a good aerodynamic position, but not TT extreme.

Are there any standard disc brake frames out there in price range $1500 (1000EUR) that will fit us or do we have to go custom made? We been looking at the Cannondale Road Tandem 2 but don’t know if any of the larger sizes will fit us. And since tandems are very rare here in northern Europe we have no possibilities to do any kind of test riding.

Thanks!

[moleman76]

You're fortunate to be the same height, especially if your legs are similar in length -- you'll be able to switch off captain/stoker if you want.

Take a look at the seatpost on one of your single bikes. Unless you've got 150mm or more exposed now, I'd suggest smaller seattube lengths than you have at present. The captain's seatpost is used to mount the stem for the stoker, so having more seatpost exposed means that you'll have more height adjustment potential. For the stoker, having a shorter seattube makes space for a shock-absorbing seatpost to be installed.

For reference, I'm 5'-9+ and also ride a 58cm frame, sized back in the old days when the idea was to get as tall of a frame as you could stand over, and have about a fist's worth of seatpost showing.

Standover -- another good reason for having a slightly smaller frame size for a tandem. If you use the "stoker mounts bike first, clips in" [while captain braces bike against tipping over] and then "captain launches bike" approach to starting, you may want just a bit more standover clearance.

[oldacura]

I think you're going to have a hard time finding a tandem that will comfortably fit a 6'1" stoker unless you get one custom made.

[dvs cycles]

Call these people and talk to Bill McCready.
http://www.santanatandem.com/

[SDS]

You will need a custom frame with more distance between the bottom bracket shell centers. A 6'1" stoker is much taller than the sizes of rider for which the back of a production tandem is intended. Given that the center-to-center horizontal distance between your seatpost and handlebars is 27.6", and that 8" of stoker stem is the least you should consider, you are looking at a bottom bracket shell spacing of no less than 35.6". I would go longer.

[solocycles]

I agree... Santana Cycles. Bill McCready (909) 596-7570

[zonatandem]

Annorlunda:
Suggest Co-Motion Cycles in Eugene, OR . Put 57,000 miles on one of their custom tandems.
Custom sizing on any Co-Motiobn model and extra $395 (US).
co-motion.com or info@co-motion.com
. . . and you're in luck, the Euro is worth much more than the US $!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[MaxCady]

Annorlunda:
It’s funny…our team has nearly the same problem and we are also from Northern Europe (Germany).
Imagine: my height is 2,05m (6’72”) and my girlfriends height is 1,87m (6’14”)…our common weight could reach 190kg.
Asking an European bike dealer for brands like CoMotion is a stupid idea! The Cannondale Road Tandem could match your requirements in size JL. But what about your common weight? I’m afraid the 135mm rear spacing of C’dale could cause rear wheel damages if used by a heavy team…
We want to buy a SANTANA Sovereign instead of the surely cheap C’dale (difference: ca. 2.500€).
Wolfgang Haas (Tel. 0049 (0) 8031/ 14 573) ist the European SANTANA dealer…
Furthermore: There is a special offer for SANTANA Premium models for buying until 31.december 2007, the carbon fork is for free!

[TandemGeek]

Asking an European bike dealer for brands like CoMotion is a stupid idea! The Cannondale Road Tandem could match your requirements in size JL. But what about your common weight? I’m afraid the 135mm rear spacing of C’dale could cause rear wheel damages if used by a heavy team… We want to buy a SANTANA Sovereign instead of the surely cheap C’dale (difference: ca. 2.500€).

Disclaimer: While I've ridden and even owned examples of these three brands of tandems, I don't presently own or have any business interest in them. I'm merely sharing what I've learned over the years from various souces, including many personal contacts with the owners of Santana and Co-Motion, both of whom I like and consider friends.

Santana makes very nice tandems, no doubt about it. However, notwithstanding a different philosophy with regard to steering geometry and frame stiffness, a Co-Motion tandem is just as good as a Santana and comes with a lot less baggage in terms of proprietary or hard-to-come-by components. Also, both Santana and Co-Motion have well-qualified European distributors: this is a link to Marc de Rochefort's website; he's Co-Motion's European distributor: http://www.velotransatlantique.com/index.html. Again, the biggest discriminator would be your preference for handling and stiffness. For very large teams, perhaps the Santana could be a better choice as the steering is less sensitive and the bike could prove to be easier to drive in a straight line. However, this is all very subjective.

Cannondale, on the other hand, is by no means a "cheap" tandem: they are simply less expensive than similarly equipped tandems sold by smaller volume, tandem specialty builders who don't enjoy the economies of scale that C'dale does. As for rear wheel spacing, Cannondale only ever used 135mm rear spacing on their road tandems once back in the early 90's and while they used 140mm for a while they adopted the industry-wide tandem spacing of 145mm. A properly built, evenly tensioned and distressed 145mm wheel will be every bit as durable and perform as well as a 160mm wheel built to equally exacting specifications for tension and distress. Conversely, a 145mm or 160mm spaced rear wheel that is not properly built or that can't retain even tension will both fail just as readily as the other. Santana and Co-Motion do get the nod for using 40h wheels as their standard fitment relative to your specific wheel needs, but 48h wheelsets should be readily available from either and a good Cannondale dealer should also be able to upgrade the stock wheels. It's also worthwhile to point out that the C'dale Jumbo/Large has one of the longest stock rear stoker compartments (29.1") offered by any of the tandem builders, whereas anything longer than the stock stoker compartments used by Santana (27.75") or Co-Motion (28.5") will put you into a custom bike. Mind you, we're only talking about differences of .5" to 1.25", but it's worth noting. Cannondales are actually ideal bikes for very large teams who need the stiffest frame they can get and the steering geometry falls right in the middle ground between what's used by Santana for every road tandem/fork combination and what Co-Motion uses for its chomoly fork-equipped tandems. As you move onto Co-Motion's racing tandems with carbon forks, the steering gets even more aggressive which may or may not appeal to a very large team.

I'm not pushing C'dale, but I would say they need to be given their due for producing an excellent product for a very attractive price point: you get a lot of bang for the buck. The same is true for Trek's tandems which also happen to feature progressively longer stoker compartments for their larger tandems. No, neither C'dale or Trek produce custom-sized frames, but that's not their market segment. However, if a C'dale frame would fit "well enough" a new or used model might be a pretty smart way to evaluate if tandem cycling is something you'll enjoy / do enough to warrant the significant investment required to put yourself on a custom-sized Santana, Co-Motion, or other premium brand-name tandem with components of the same quality.

Again, Santana makes a great tandem, but so do many other companies and from all accounts Wolfgang is a great guy to work with. However, IMHO, it sounds like you've been given an overdose of Santana's marketing material which is anything but objective and, in some cases, downright misleading: that's why it's called marketing material. Their "test ride program" is also excellent and truly does get new tandem teams started off the right way. Co-Motion's authorized dealers use a similar approach but, with Cannondale and Trek, not so much and that's what limits their market share and price structure: they're not tandem specialty dealers.

[MaxCady]

Hi „TandemGeek“,

Thanks for your impressive engagement in detailed description of your experiences in tandem riding! Moreover your threads were found by Google after my “research” in tandem questions, so I recognized this forum…
I’m not only “Newbie” here in the forum, we are also “Newbies” in tandem riding.
All my written points are theory…

But our main requirement is not handling or stiffness, it is stability and longevity.
My 13 years old race bike is an example for a combination of contest ability (triathlon) and stability. The weakest part is only the rear wheel (crossing the rails) independent on kind of rim.
I’m an engineer and believe in the advantage of 160mm rear spacing (no matter if build by SANTANA, C’dale or others). Before recognizing that some brands build symmetric rear wheels with conventional components I was interested in a Rohloff-option (same theory).

Our search for a matching tandem is a long story.
I don’t want to be misunderstood…I’m not a SANTANA enthusiast! In some points I don’t fully agree. My favourite components are build by Campagnolo and I like the Ergo Power levers. But the Shimano megarange cog could only replaced with a Campa cog in small range...Furthermore the Shimano Flight Deck (wireless) is a nice feature for me.

Finding the nearest dealer for optimal support is another important point.
I have one of the best race bikes experts directly in the near of my flat (he repaired in best quality my damaged rear wheel). This guy is also an authorized C’dale dealer. But he told me he is definitely no expert in tandems.
In Hamburg (ca. 300km far away) is one of the biggest tandem shops in Germany. You can find some handcrafted models (Gleiss), SANTANA, C’dale, but no CoMotion!
Thanks for the link to European CoMotion dealer, but I cannot imagine ordering a bike in another country.
Maybe some weeks after the first ride we want to replace a part or need any kind of support…
The best impression was found by a SANTANA dealer in our local area (ca. 40km far away). It is not Wolfgang Haas (his shop is nearly 600km far away), but Wolfgang is the official European “access point” for SANTANA.
About SANTANA’s marketing material: You are right, their message says “We are the best!!” But I can see also all that interesting facts, for example about the tubes and the decision for Shimano instead of Campagnolo. From my point of view this should be the expectation if an investment of more than 5.000$ is done.
If someone is interested in a car from Mercedes Benz, he wants to find significant information about all features and details in an appropriate medium and shouldn’t get a link to the next Mercedes dealer at the same continent…
I’m really disappointed about missing the chance for testing a CoMotion. Maybe their products meet much more my expectations compared to SANTANA. But I’m the potential customer and they should be interested in selling…

[TandemGeek]

I’m an engineer and believe in the advantage of 160mm rear spacing (no matter if build by SANTANA, C’dale or others).

In theory, 160mm wheels should be more durable... However, in practice it turns out that the biggest variable in wheel durability behind having the correct spoke count is the how well the wheel was built. Some of your other comment suggest there are other very good reasons for looking to Santana for your tandem, but having been around the block a few times I wouldn't suggest that you or anyone else allow rear wheel spacing to overly influence your decision. I've fixed as many broken spokes on 160mm wheels as I have on 145mm, and most were 40h wheels. I won't even get into the chi-chi wheelsets, as that's an entirely different proposition. However, 48h wheels in any axle width seem to be pretty much bomb proof even when the build isn't perfect so that does bear strong consideration for very large teams where durability and reliability are more important that marginal performance improvements and sex appeal.


But the Shimano megarange cog could only replaced with a Campa cog in small range...Furthermore the Shimano Flight Deck (wireless) is a nice feature for me.

Can't argue the Flight Deck appeal as I'm not sure that the Campy Ergo brain is fully its equal in all respects: I've never used either one on any bike. However, I would note that you can use up to an 11x32t Shimano 9 speed cassette with Campy Ergo shifters and a Campy long-cage rear derailleur: I've been doing so for tens of thousands of miles. Just something to bear in mind, as many folks do not know that these combinations work together.

Finding the nearest dealer for optimal support is another important point.

Unless you do all your own bicycle maintenance and have a good feel for where you can get parts off the Internet, then this is to me the strongest argument for going with a given brand of tandem. The trick has always seemed to be finding a very-good dealer who has some level of experience, interest, and expertise with tandems as I've seen a lot of frustrated consumers with screwed up tandems where someone who called themselves a bicycle technician failed to fix their problems.

Thanks for the link to European CoMotion dealer, but I cannot imagine ordering a bike in another country.

Only two thoughts here: Contact Marc and see what he might suggest or have your trusted local shop call Marc and see what he might suggest. I have no idea how Marc handles the European market, where other dealers may be located, or if he travels to your local area on other business.

All that said, you'd be surprised how many folks here in the states have ordered tandems -- stock as well as custom -- long distance. All three of our custom road tandems were arranged from 3,200 miles away via Email and phone calls and without any interference from dealers and the same holds true for at least 7 other couples whom we're very good friends with. It's not to say that doing a long-distance transaction is for everyone, but it's not all that uncommon.

I’m really disappointed about missing the chance for testing a CoMotion. Maybe their products meet much more my expectations compared to SANTANA. But I’m the potential customer and they should be interested in selling…

It's just about as difficult to find bike shops here in the states that are dealers for more than one or two different brands of tandems, never mind finding any in stock to compare. So, I can appreciate your dilemma.

In closing, my real objective in replying to your first post is not to suggest what brand of tandem to purchase, just to continue in your research with an open mind as there is a lot of bad information floating around even to this day regarding tandems, the pros and cons of different brands, materials, and equipment specifications.

Good hunting...

[zzzwillzzz]

don't forget the 160 mm axle width also makes the bottom brackets longer to accomodate the wider rear hub and makes it tougher for front shifting. if you're sensitive to Q-factor (distance between right and left crankarms) like me then the santana can be problematic. for me my tandem with a 145 mm rear hub the cranks feel very spread apart compared to my road bike

[zonatandem]

Other Euro tandem brands you may wish to look at: Velo Schauff (German), Thorn and Dawes (English), Santos and Koga Miyata (Dutch), Follis (French) + quite a few others.
Have ridden 30+ makes/models of tandems from USA, Europe and Asia.
Yes, it's difficult to find a true tandem shop/dealer not only in Germany, but most anywhere in the world.
Cannondale with its heat treated aluminum frame would be stiffer than most any tandem out there, but then there's a question of proper fit.
Viel gluck!
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatadenm

[timf]

We've been racing a C'dale for years now ... upgraded to Campag ergo levers, with Ultegra 12/27 9 speed cluster and shifts are perfect. And matched to a 32 small blade, we're able to go anywhere (although Europe may dictate a 12/32). And if you're concerned about longevity of wheels, remember that on a tandem, the front wheel actually carries more weight than the back. So to handle the torque, width is not where you want to go, rather opt for a 4-cross spoke lacing, with slightly deeper dished rims.

[cornucopia72]

.... remember that on a tandem, the front wheel actually carries more weight than the back. .....

never would have guessed that....

[prairie*boy]

never would have guessed that....

It depends on how much your stoker weighs....:rolleyes:

Prairie*boy

[Hermes]

Since others have not provided Santana's European contact info, here it is for you conveniance. http://www.santana-tandem.com/ email info@santana-tandem.com

I recently spent 10 days touring Italy with Wolfgang, his wife Dagmar and the McCready's along with with 53 other tandem teams riding mostly Santana tandems with some other brands. Wolfgang was very helpful and knowledgeable on the tour. It is worth a call to get his insights. Good luck.

[dubbelop]

MaxCady wrote: But what about your common weight? I’m afraid the 135mm rear spacing of C’dale could cause rear wheel damages if used by a heavy team…

FWIW: Cannondale uses a 145 mm rear spacing, which is more than sufficient to build up a proper wheel that withstands heavy loads.

[MaxCady]

Well, all the written comments are helpful to find an average feedback from longtime owners of different brands.
And off course I've been corrected in case of wrong rear space value (145mm instead of 135) on Cannondale's road tandem.
By the way, yesterday we went to the race bike shop (official C'dale dealer) in our neighbourhood and asked for a few of details.
About the situation in Germany again...if we would purchase a C'dale there, this would be the first tandem deal in the whole history of this shop!! They also could no other dealer with appropriate knowledge recommend in the region.
OK, the challenge is to find enough arguments to save the balance of ca. 2.500€ for the Santana Sovereign.
There is already the point of confidence and selling behavior. The guy in the shop was not able to give the right information about the rear space. This value is also not described on the C'dale website...OK, now I 've got this information from some friendly guys here.
Finding a matching configuration is very easy, because there are only 3 options: choice between road tandem 2 and 3, between 4 colours and 4 or 5 standart sizes. If a rear wheel with 48 spokes is needed, our guys in the shop must replace the rims and hubs. Their problem is, what should happen with the replaced parts. They want to calculate the balance for this case.
Another point is the warranty. I think C'dales warranty is limited to 2 years, but the guy in the shop was not quite sure. He will give an answer next week. Let's compare the forks. Santana features a 1,1/4 steerer, C'dale a 1,1/8...off course theory!!
We will get an offer for a C'dale next week.
You are right, 2.500€ is a lot!!
Unfortunately there is no independent and professional comparing test available.
How should a new, heavy weight tandem team in large size without any experiences decide? There are lots of very subjective recommendations.
I found also this interesting report:
http://www.precisiontandems.com/longbikes.htm
And there is a special single road bike described on the German Santana pages. This bike is build for a bikers weight up to 200kg (incl.baggage) and is based on the usual Santana tandem construction.
I think everybody can understand, that a real heavy tandem team confides in Santana's solutions.
The C'dale is for a normal sized team surely a good choice. Yes, we can also try...Maybe it is durable enough...maybe not...maybe we are the first serious durability testers...

[TandemGeek]

I found also this interesting report:
http://www.precisiontandems.com/longbikes.htm

IMHO, anyone who knew the players involved in that "test" could have predicted the results before the test took place. That said, I think Greg Peek's Longbikes tandem were exceptional -- which is what the testing was intended to show -- but that's about it. Longbikes came into being about the same time as Merdian Cycles and both brands failed to achieve their ambitious goals for displacing Santana as the "new benchmark" for tandems. Roger Haga, who was involved early on in Santanas tour business, was retained by Longbikes to do a lot of "marketing" to help launch the brand, much of which was controversial and not well received by the tandem enthusiast community... all of which is documented in the Hobbes archives.

For context, Meridian probably produced and sold a lot more tandems than Longbikes because the man behind Merdian, Jim Leis, has been a key player at Santana for many years, involved in product development, operations, and marketing so he knew what worked; however, Meridian ultimately failed in a big and ugly way. Longbikes still exists and may still build tandems as a custom order, but for the most part have abandoned the upright tandem bike market and focused their heavy capital investment in bicycle fabication facilities and support on the Recumbent market, to include buying the rights to the Ryan Recumbent line of bikes. So, while that 'report' may be interesting, all that I'd take away from it was that Longbikes manufacturered an excellent bike that was on par with three other excellent tandems where the biggest differences aside from material and tester bias would have been their tandem handling, as all three builders had a different philosphy on tandem steering geometry.

And there is a special single road bike described on the German Santana pages. This bike is build for a bikers weight up to 200kg (incl.baggage) and is based on the usual Santana tandem construction.

I've not seen that description, but I can tell you that Santana has played around with single bikes a couple times. Once, many years ago, they built a few all-terrain bikes (very rare) and then a few years back they solicited feedback from a number of the better custom single bike builders on geometry as part of a very limited build of Scandium single bikes. Santana used what they had in hand for components -- 1.25" headsets and 160mm rear spacing -- to build these bikes which were ostensibly intended to allow them to evaluate how well Easton's Scandium aluminum would be to work with and to hold up as a tandem frame material. These were coveted by Santana-devotees and everyone once in a while one will show up in the second hand market. While it could be argued that these single bikes were built for super-big riders, that is also true of every Santana tandem. A good thing for very large teams. There is also at least one Beyond single bike that was commissioned by Jay Leno as a gift for former US President Bill Clinton after it was determined that the Beyond tandem Leno had given to President Clinton and his wife Hillary, the Senator from New York, was not allowed under the Senate Rules for gift giving. I believe Leno may still have the Beyond tandem but can't be sure.

[dvs cycles]

Another point is the warranty. I think C'dales warranty is limited to 2 years, but the guy in the shop was not quite sure. He will give an answer next week. Let's compare the forks. Santana features a 1,1/4 steerer, C'dale a 1,1/8...off course theory!!


I for one subsribe to the 1 1/4 theory and is one of the reasons we bought our Santana Team Scandium last year. Trust Santanas designs after many years of riding singles around tandem teams and comparing setups. We went with Reynolds carbon fork and Dura-ace brakes front and rear. 320lbs team weight and have not had anyproblems yet. Bought and picked up at factory in SoCal since it's just an hour away from me .
Santana warranty is lifetime.

[TandemGeek]

...if we would purchase a C'dale there, this would be the first tandem deal in the whole history of this shop!! They also could no other dealer with appropriate knowledge recommend in the region. If a rear wheel with 48 spokes is needed, our guys in the shop must replace the rims and hubs. Their problem is, what should happen with the replaced parts. They want to calculate the balance for this case.

This is truly the problem with most bike shops that are clueless when it comes to tandems and one of the biggest limiting factors in successful experiences for first-time tandem buyers. There shouldn't be a significant upcharge for 48° wheels, noting that Santana and most likely Co-Motion dealers can offer that upgrade for $50 (USD). But, and this is subjective, at about 410lbs a set of 40° wheels "should" be OK, given the quality of the parts Cannondale is using, e.g., heavy-duty Sun rims with eyelets and White Ind. hubs. That all said, and back to the real problem, if the shop doesn't even understand the specifications and warranties for the products they offer, I wouldn't expect them to have any interest in attempting to work with their European distributor to figure out how to offer their Cannondale tandems with what should be optional equipment. Worst case scenario, they should be able to buy the bike as a frame-only and build it up to suit a clients needs for a modest upcharge. But, again, this is why tandems aren't something that most bike shops want to deal with and why it is almost always worthwhile to search-out a tandem speciality dealer who is willing to work with a serious buyer with specific needs. This is probably why Santana has been so successful in Europe via export of their "authorized dealer" program and for this they do get major kudos (and reap the financial rewards of having an outstanding reputation and a large market share in Europe).


Another point is the warranty. I think C'dales warranty is limited to 2 years, but the guy in the shop was not quite sure.

CANNONDALE LIMITED WARRANTY: (http://www.cannondale.com/policies/bike_warr_policy2.html)

* The specific warranty covering your Cannondale bicycle is governed by the law of the state or country in which it was purchased, and applies only to bicycles purchased from Authorized Cannondale Retailers.
* FRAMES (frame, fork structure, swing arm): Cannondale frames (except freeride, see below) are warranted by Cannondale Bicycle Corporation, 16 Trowbridge Drive, Bethel, CT 06801 against manufacturing defects in materials and/or workmanship for the lifetime of the original owner.


Santana warranty is lifetime.

FWIW: Like most tandem builders, Santana offers a lifetime warranty on the frame. Component and wheel warranties are as specified by the manufacturers or Santana and carry anywhere from a 12-month to 5-year warranty. The frame warranty is, like Cannondale's, only valid for the original purchaser. Co-Motion is one of the few builders whose lifetime frame warranty is transferrable and Calfee, who offers a 25-year warranty on their Tetra frames (a little less on Dragonfly) has a warranty transfer program.

[TandemGeek]

I for one subsribe to the 1 1/4 theory and is one of the reasons we bought our Santana Team Scandium last year. Trust Santanas designs after many years of riding singles around tandem teams and comparing setups.

Have you seen a lot of 1.125" head tube, fork steerer, or headset failures on tandems out there in So-Cal?

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad that you have found Santana's tandems to be a good match for your needs / tastes. However, I'm just trying to understand what -- aside from intangibles such as Santana brand loyalty, recognition, and reputation -- has set their tandems apart from the others being ridden.

Mind you, we too had a Santana as our first tandem: great buying experience, great product, great support, and a great 10-year relationship with Bill, despite what some folks who've read our debates on Hobbes might think. Our telephone discussions and the ones we had at a Santana Rally years back are not nearly as digital or edgy.

The challenge when comparing tandems designed for similar applications is trying to quantify the theories and marketing statements based on real-world performance and experiences. Ultimately, in most cases the only thing that sets the premium quality tandems apart is truly buyer preference, not glaringly obvious flaws, quality issues, performance, or customer support (with a few exceptions).

[zonatandem]

Having been involved with tandems since 1975 (owners, sales, writing, testriding) and knowing some of the key players in the field, whether large or small builders, we do have our own opinion/preferences.
There's a bit of hype out there which we politely call 'marketing'. Some folks are better at that than others. Some great builders have never run an ad, does that mean their product is not as good or better?
Do they build three frames a year or over a hundred? It's the product that counts. Brand recognition seems to be a big thing; some folks are very 'label conscious' but not product conscious.
Do your own research and test riding.
As Mark suggests, buy the tandem that meets your needs.

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[dvs cycles]

FWIW: Like most tandem builders, Santana offers a lifetime warranty on the frame. Component and wheel warranties are as specified by the manufacturers or Santana and carry anywhere from a 12-month to 5-year warranty. The frame warranty is, like Cannondale's, only valid for the original purchaser. Co-Motion is one of the few builders whose lifetime frame warranty is transferrable and Calfee, who offers a 25-year warranty on their Tetra frames (a little less on Dragonfly) has a warranty transfer program.
Don't know about the Co-Motion but I was told that the Calfee was only transferable if you send them the frame back so they can evaluate it first?
Anyway I would only expect the mfg. to warranty the frame for life as all other components do have a lifespan and should be replaced eventually for safety or upgraded to keep up with technology.

[dvs cycles]

Having been involved with tandems since 1975 (owners, sales, writing, testriding) and knowing some of the key players in the field, whether large or small builders, we do have our own opinion/preferences.
There's a bit of hype out there which we politely call 'marketing'. Some folks are better at that than others. Some great builders have never run an ad, does that mean their product is not as good or better?
Do they build three frames a year or over a hundred? It's the product that counts. Brand recognition seems to be a big thing; some folks are very 'label conscious' but not product conscious.
Do your own research and test riding.
As Mark suggests, buy the tandem that meets your needs.

Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

Exactly! If we all liked the same thing I wouldn't be able to find my bike at the Starbucks stop.:)

[dvs cycles]

I've not seen any failures personally other than 11 years ago when a steel schwinn tandem with 1" steel steerer tube failed on a downhill with our group ride. Seeing 2 people with broken bones left a lasting image with me. The bike was older and the accident could have been prevented if the owner had checked it out occasionally. It had a fracture at the crown that had been there long before it failed.
I can't speak for all of SoCal since I ride in a limited circle of local clubs here in OC but here is my logic if you will on 1 1/8 vs 1 1/4.
I usally take the conservative over engineered approach to most bike components on my single and more so my tandem with my wife as a helpless victim should anything go wrong.
We went from 1" steel to 1" carbon to 1 1/8 carbon for steerers as the standard on most all singles now.
Tandems bear considerably more weight on the front end as well as more braking force than do singles
If an 1 1/8 is needed for a single then in my opinion a tandem should be bigger. Simple as that.
As for what set Santana apart for me was riding with tandems on clubrides for 20 years before we got ours. Never have seen Santana failure, not that they probably haven't just not around my groups.
Have had one couple who's Co-motion developed a crack, which the mfg. couldn't get it back to replace it for them fast enough. Another friend with a Custom Calfee tandem had problems right from the factory when it didn't have enough rear tire clearance for 25c tires. Later on rear drop out on the right side came unbonded as I've seen or heard of on at least 3 single calfees.
I wanted to buy a tandem that would last for basically the rest of my cycling lifespan since I'm 54.
I can see upgrading things over the years but by my observations should still have a very good safe bike for a very long time.
Many of the tandem teams around me are into acompetition of how light can we go, use wheels and forks that were only designed for singles and if it breaks they will just replace it. I don't want to experience component failure or the possible pain associated much less do anything to harm my wife.
Just my opinion.:)

[zonatandem]

As for fork failures;
Know of one on a Santana at least 20 years ago.
Have personally broken an experimental Reynolds 531 steel fork after 15,000 miles.
Have also broken tandem frame: at 50,000 miles and after the repair broke again at 56,000 miles in a different place.
However, since we design our own tandem(s) can only blame the designer. We put that under the category of 'experience and lesson learned!'
We start thinking, and designing, a new tandem after it hits the 50,000 mile mark, as a precaution. All materials eventually will fatigue.
However at our age (in our 70s) this *may* be our last tandem. But as stoker Kay is fond of saying : "Yeah, that's what you said the last time!"
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[prairie*boy]

Annorlunda/MaxCady:

Note: I do NOT have the mileage which some do - only about 4,000 on tandems and 50,000 on singles so my expertise is limited but my team is....larger than average. I stand 187 cm tall and weight 90kg. My stoker is 174 cm tall and weighs ...more...

I was originally introduced to tandems by a Santana...which was a nice bike but too expensive for me at the time.

So I compromised an bought a KHS. To which I have done some upgrading: DJ1 front fork/FSA Pig Pro Headset, Alex DA16 rim 36*/WhiteInd ChubHub front, Alex DA16 rim 36*/Dimension DH/11 - 30 8spd cassette rear (135 mm - honest when I bought it I didn't know tandems were wider, I just wanted to move the 7 speed to my winter bike), Dimension cranks 48/38/28/18 chainrings, Magura Gustav M brakes. To date (1,500 road and 500+ atb miles) I haven't had a component failure....turned the disks interesting shades coming down some 60 percent slope but everything still runs just fine.

So if well built 36*/3X wheels can handle a tandem of >180 kg grinding for extended periods in 18/30 up and bombing down (to the limit of the Thudbuster LT) singletrack, then they should be good for a lot longer distance used sensibly on the road (I only have a couple thousand so far on my WhiteInd/Mavic A719 36* wheels on my road tandem so can't confirm yet). And if an 1-1/8" - 90 mm long headtube, can handle the shock / braking loads of ATB biking, what is the need for more?

So while I understand Bill's marketing (I am a mechanical engineer), the exclusivity of 1-1/4" headsets/forks and 160 mm hubs/128 mm BBs kept me from buying a Santana. As I buy "everything" from a different country (Canada doesn't offer the same selection as the USA), I don't want to be unable to ride for days waiting for replacement parts. With the same dimensions as my singles/what the local shops carry, I can "borrow" a part while I wait for the tandem rated component to arrive.

That said, I am easy on equipment: proper maintenance, good shifting, etc.

Our road tandem - Tsunami 57/52 would be too small for a 186 cm Stoker...needs about 5 cm more stoker compartment to be able to set it up identical to what I have in the Captain's. A Cannondale X/M is a little shorter (56/48) than the Tsunami with slightly longer stoker compartment but still not quite enough. And I'm not sure if I would be comfortable as captain on a J/L...cockpit would be a little big and I would want to be comfortable if I was say doing a fast lap of Lake Vattern in Sweden...so I would lean towards a custom frame from Co-Motion if I were plunking my money down.

A Cannondale J/L should fit your team, MaxCady as should a Santana Extra Large...CoMotion would need to be a custom frame as they don't make them that big in standard sizing.

Overall - Cannondale / Co-Motion / Santana, you really aren't going wrong with any of them.

As someone else noted, any tandem that the stoker is lined up to ride is the right one.

Prairie*boy

[Xanti Andia]

As someone else noted, any tandem that the stoker is lined up to ride is the right one.

Prairie*boy

Yep, I said that.

That said, we are enjoying our new Co-Motion Mocha very much. It is a stock size Large, I am 6', my wife 5'2". The geometry of the Mocha, which goes a little in the direction of a mountain bike, allows for more flexibility in size of riders. You would think a Large would be too large for my stoker, but it is fine with stoker stem fully extended and Thudbuster seat post with yet half an inch to spare on the post, and someday I could have a stoker up to my height and still ride it comfortably. I don't know how much you might switch stokers around, or how important is it for you to be able to find a buyer once you are done with the bike, but you might consider a Mocha because of the flexibility in rider sizes. You might or might not need a custom sizing, but as pointed out, Co-Motion is has a very reasonable custom sizing cost. Can't speak about the stoker, but as the pilot on a Large Mocha I am fine and I am sure a 6' 1" pilot would be very comfortable. All other components on the Mocha are very decent, and the stock wheels are strong and extremely well built.

[MaxCady]

I was really busy in the last time to check in detail a C'dale option.
And I think I was surely successful...!! We were searching recommendadtions of experts in comparing a Santana in XL to a C'dale in J/L.
Finally I asked one great tandem specific dealer in Hamburg. This guy offers both: Santana and C'dale, and is enabled to express an independent opinion...and they are really experts for tandems.
There is no problem to fulfil any wishes...So we've got an interesting offer:
C'dale road tandem in J/L,
48-spoke-wheels (extrastrong DD Sapim-spokes: 2,3 - 2mm; Mavic rims, DT 540 hubs),
replace the Shimano parts for Campagnolo Chorus (I'm a Campagnolo enthusiast...),
Campagnolo ErgoBrain computer
FSA carbon crank set,
captain handle bars for Campagnolo configuration (width 46cm),
suspension stoker seat post
Well, this configuration fulfils our (my!!) wishes nearly to 100% and the offered price is less than the best offered price for a standart Santana Arriva...but we were planning to purchase a Santana Sovereign!!
We trust in the dealers promise that a J/L sized C'dale will fit in our inseams.
Only one minor disadvantage is to pass...the 08 C'dale road tandem is in Europe only available in jet-black.
We don't love a bike in overall black...!! The white pearl option will be checked in next week.
But on the other hand the guy in the tandem shop offers also a "special solution": after asking his European Cannondale distributer we can decide between all available 08 C'dale paintings (complete range of bikes!!) with a small "penalty" of only 300€ and without any disadvantages in warranty. Our favorite colour is already the white pearl option, but let's wait for the results of next week...
And now we have to say: Thanks for all given comments and recommendations to find this nice alternative to Santana...

[zonatandem]

While paint is sometimes a difficult decison, sounds like dealer is offering a good option.
Have had prospective tandem teams argue over what color for their new tandem!
Our solution, pilot gets his color on front half, while stoker gets her color in rear half . . . nice fade of both colors in mid-section.
Or another one . . . paint left half of bike captain's choice, right half stoker's choice . . . have only one duo settle for that one! Truly reflected 'split color preference!' Hey, it's only extra money . . .
Be happy, get what you want/like!
Here's photo of another 'split color personality' paint scheme.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandem

[dvs cycles]

While paint is sometimes a difficult decison, sounds like dealer is offering a good option.
Have had prospective tandem teams argue over what color for their new tandem!
Our solution, pilot gets his color on front half, while stoker gets her color in rear half . . . nice fade of both colors in mid-section.
Or another one . . . paint left half of bike captain's choice, right half stoker's choice . . . have only one duo settle for that one! Truly reflected 'split color preference!' Hey, it's only extra money . . .
Be happy, get what you want/like!
Here's photo of another 'split color personality' paint scheme.
Pedal on TWOgether!
Rudy and Kay/zonatandemBet that bike really MOOOOOOVES!:D
Sorry, I guess you've heard that one too many times.:rolleyes:

[Annorlunda]

Thanks for all answers :)

With no standard sized tandem out there that will perfectly fit us both without any compromises it looks like we need a custom build.

I’m sure Santana build great tandems but they are over budget for our first tandem experience. And just asking Santana for sizing advice and then buy another brand doesn’t feel right.

We are beginning to understand the geometry and the sizes we need on our future tandem. But there is still some question about the rear stoker compartment. Earlier in the tread someone recommended the size to be our overall reach (27.6”) plus an 8” stoker stem i.e. 35.6”. Others say that the Cannondale J/L with 29.1” rear stoker compartment will fit. No wonder we are confused :)

What’s the secret behind the size of the rear stoker compartment? Is there any difference in stoker compartment for an aero position compared with riding more relaxed upright? How long stoker stem do you need and is normally used?

[TandemGeek]

What’s the secret behind the size of the rear stoker compartment? Is there any difference in stoker compartment for an aero position compared with riding more relaxed upright? How long stoker stem do you need and is normally used?

The secret is, >95% of the tandems sold are designed around the captain's fitting requirements and not around the stoker... and >98% of comsumers seem to be OK with that. The longest stoker tubes I've seen on a stock production tandem are the ones on the Rodriguez road tandems and Ventana off-road tandems which are around 30", followed by the aforementioned Cannondale J/L.

"Aero" is relative for a stoker's position on a tandem since they are essentially sitting in the captain's slipstream, albeit with the larger stokers often times finding their noses planted in their captain's back.

Super-long tandems are obviously possible... After all, there are triplets, quads, and quints but, as you note, it requires a custom build and that's not always the most prudent way to go for a "first tandem" when it's not known if you and you stoker will truly enjoy riding together. That said, and excluding the Rodriguez and Ventana production models, there are probably less than 1,000custom tandems that have been designed with extra-long stoker compartments: we own 3 of them and know perhaps 15 or so other teams that have them.

As for stoker stem length, you'll see single bike stems of 120mm used, all the way up to 14" extensions used for sto-kids. Ours are between 6" and 8", depending on which tandem you look at.

[Annorlunda]

We have found a European bike manufacturer that offer custom sized tandem frames. The frames are reasonable priced and they charge 40 euro ($60 USD) extra for custom made.

So we can go custom made on our first tandem if we want. The company have asked us what size we need. For captain size it’s easy to decide when we use our single roadbikes as reference. But what will we tell them when it comes to stoker horizontal top tube length? Is it our overall reach (27,6”) plus 6” to 8” that will be best suited for us?

[TandemGeek]

But what will we tell them when it comes to stoker horizontal top tube length? Is it our overall reach (27,6”) plus 6” to 8” that will be best suited for us?

Given that you'll have the opportunity to work with your builder, I'd make that question part of you discussions. There will ultimately be trade-offs that you'll need to agree on in the design of your tandem and the overall length of the stoker compartment will be one of those things that will ultimately require some give-and-take.

However, as a practical matter, I know that my wife likes having her handlebars sitting at or behind the back edge of my saddle so that she can see her computer. Of course, being only 5'2" tall with arms that are proportionate, this also keeps her head well back from my backside. However, as a stoker gets taller, their arms usually get longer so, in some respects, having the bars more horizontally close-in may not be an issue since their arm length will provide them with a certain amount of "free room" behind the captain.

[prairie*boy]

If you go a little long, you might give up a little strength, and a little aerodynamics (this is a go fast tandem right? so you should be tucked right together for best performance) but you will be able to get longer stems so will be comfortable (you could also experiment with zero set back seatposts, etc).

If you go too short, you might not be comfortable and if your not comfortable riding won't be fun and you won't do it.

Prairie*boy