"The 33"-Road Bike Racing - Why should I get a Powertap?

Hey guys,

I'm toying with the idea of buying a powertap and am trying to understand the benefits of using such a device in my training/racing. I'll be in Cat 4 this year and my coach trains primarily using heart rate. Power is helpful to him but comes into play mostly during intervals and assessing my recovery. It's pricey and I can afford it but it would count as a silver bullet with my wife (you only get so many per year!).

So how has a Powertap helped your cycling?

-s

Hey guys,

I'm toying with the idea of buying a powertap and am trying to understand the benefits of using such a device in my training/racing. I'll be in Cat 4 this year and my coach trains primarily using heart rate. Power is helpful to him but comes into play mostly during intervals and assessing my recovery. It's pricey and I can afford it but it would count as a silver bullet with my wife (you only get so many per year!).

So how has a Powertap helped your cycling?

-s
http://www.amazon.com/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1931382794/ref=sr_1_1/105-1796656-0470867?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1193938781&sr=8-1
Plus there's a lot of good general training information

Hey guys,

I'm toying with the idea of buying a powertap and am trying to understand the benefits of using such a device in my training/racing. [

OK.


I'll be in Cat 4 this year and my coach trains primarily using heart rate.

OK.


[COLOR="Silver"]Power is helpful to him but comes into play mostly during intervals and assessing my recovery. It's pricey and I can afford it but it would count as a silver bullet with my wife
(you only get so many per year!).

So how has a Powertap helped your cycling?

-s

Your answer lies within.

OK.



OK.



Your answer lies within.

Actually my answer lies in the cost versus benefit relationship of the Powertap. I know what the costs are which brings me back to my original question. How has a Powertap improved your cycling?

-s

The biggest reason to buy a Power Tap is:

• So you can post threads on BF prior to buying one asking if you should

• Then you can post threads on BF about which Power Meter you should get

• Then you can debate this issue ad nauseum

• Then you can buy the Power Tap and post on BF about the schwag factor

• Then you can look at how cool it looks on your bike (since you'll need an MIT undergrad degree to ever figure out how this gizmo can make you faster, NASA also holds seminars)

For me, a power meter is an extremely helpful training tool. My coach assigns me power-based workouts and reviews my power data. That said, I know lots of really good racers who don't own one and probably wouldn't get any better if they did own one.

A power meter is not, as you suggest, a silver bullet. It's one of many available training tools (including "ride lots", heart rate training, intervals, genetics, a six-pack of cold beer, and the "you'll get laid if you win" ultimatim from the GF or SO).

--Steve

The biggest reason to buy a Power Tap is:

• So you can post threads on BF prior to buying one asking if you should

• Then you can post threads on BF about which Power Meter you should get

• Then you can debate this issue ad nauseum

• Then you can buy the Power Tap and post on BF about the schwag factor

• Then you can look at how cool it looks on your bike (since you'll need an MIT undergrad degree to ever figure out how this gizmo can make you faster, NASA also holds seminars)

Dont forget the charts!

The powertap (and any power thing) is more a way of measuring your output so your benefit from it is directly related to how you use it.

Power is more immediately measurable than heart rate - so when you do a big interval using a power meter, you can steady your workload more effectively than if you had a heart rate monitor. With a power meter, you can hit your target (say 400w) and hold it. With a heart rate monitor, it's much less precise, and you'll probably go too hard at the beginning. In some of my hardest but shortest efforts, my hr barely gets moving while I'm going well into the 1000 watt range - it might go from 100-145 bpm but man I'm fried after the effort. Your hr monitor won't reflect that effort too accurately - it thought you just made a small effort.

For me the power is fascinating, I enjoy trying to "peg the meter" in sprints or big pursuit type efforts, and I've learned that I work much harder than I think on climbs. I bought my PT in April, rode it from May till about 2 weeks ago, but due to lack of training (promote 6 week series of races, prep/sell house, move, wedding, and honeymoon in seven months this year) I didn't race well.

What the PowerTap did to me specifically is make me realize that I want to know my power and heartrate for an entire ride (i.e. download it to the computer). Since I have a lot of wheels which are not PowerTap-able, I bought an SRM. Actually I bought an SRM bike - it was just a bit more than the SRM, and it's all new - and I can sell off the PT, a bike, and a few things off the SRM bike to help pay for it).

summary:
1. I love knowing power vs heartrate, full ride info (not just avg, max for speed/cad/hr).
2. I think I can use power/heartrate data to train more effectively since I have more time.
3. Due to the expense of converting many wheels, I am changing to a crank based power meter.
4. PT is good if you have one or two wheelsets. If you have more, it may not be cost effective.

I wrote a couple things on PT:
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/10/equipment-power-powertap-srm.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/08/review-powertap-sl.html
http://sprinterdellacasa.blogspot.com/2007/05/equipment-powertap-sl.html

The second link has some interesting criticism on my use of the PT.

cdr

For me, a power meter is an extremely helpful training tool. My coach assigns me power-based workouts and reviews my power data. That said, I know lots of really good racers who don't own one and probably wouldn't get any better if they did own one.

A power meter is not, as you suggest, a silver bullet. It's one of many available training tools (including "ride lots", heart rate training, intervals, genetics, a six-pack of cold beer, and the "you'll get laid if you win" ultimatim from the GF or SO).



Pcad always got laid regardless. Thank God, I suck at bike racing, if I relied on results to swap for sex I'd be a friggin monk.

I couldnt justify the cost vs gain of buying a PT. I dont like data as it is and at this stage of racing wouldnt be much use to me.

You don't see pronghorn antelopes with powermeters yet they're way faster than us.

You don't see pronghorn antelopes with powermeters yet they're way faster than us.

I've been citing the VO2Max of a Pronghorn Antelope on group rides lately ... I cant wait to try and convince someone that the antelope's vo2max was measured using a treadmill and breathing apparatus.

Dont forget the charts!

Exactly

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i165/bobstewart/tuesdaynightride.jpg

Top ten reasons to train with power...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=3660

the "you'll get laid if you win" ultimatim from the GF or SO).

--Steve

For me it isn't a matter of whether I win or lose, it is showing up that counts. In other words - "you'll get laid if you skip the race and take care of the kids".

I've been citing the VO2Max of a Pronghorn Antelope on group rides lately ... I cant wait to try and convince someone that the antelope's vo2max was measured using a treadmill and breathing apparatus.
How was it measured?

Top ten reasons to train with power...

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/default.asp?pg=fullstory&id=3660

From a coach that charges more to "analyze" power data than HR. I love this part...


2. A powermeter takes post race analysis to a whole new level by giving you and your coach something to analyze and serving as a common language for discussion. There is no more, “I got dropped.” A powermeter is brutally honest and now it’s “I got dropped because of x, y, and z”. More importantly it paves the way for adjusting your training to overcome those deficiencies.


Still comes down to "I got dropped" unless you understand your body and true PE zones. "See now I can tell you got dropped cause your HR poped when you went up that hill thus your power dropped....... We need to work on hill training"

lol

I think I am going to ask for one this Christmas....its just money...

Still comes down to "I got dropped" unless you understand your body and true PE zones. "See now I can tell you got dropped cause your HR poped when you went up that hill thus your power dropped....... We need to work on hill training"

"I see from the power data that on this and the previous several hills you were below LT and not in any trouble. The big surge put you over VO2max power so you were relying on AWC. Since you weren't limited by aerobic power, but by your anaerobic capacity, we should cut back on the LT work and add some anaerobic training to the plan in the form of short intervals. For specificity, we'll do the intervals up hill."
or
"Though it might seem like you were dropped because you didn't have the anaerobic capacity to follow the surge over the top, I see from the data, that in fact you were over LT for about 10 minutes before the surge took place. The problem wasn't lack of AWC (which in fact is above average). The problem is a low LT causes you to dip into those reserves earlier than everyone around you so you have nothing left for surges. We need to work more on LT by doing long intervals and tempo rides.

From a coach that charges more to "analyze" power data than HR. I love this part...

Agreed. I was just posting it because the OP wants to put his mind at ease about spending the loot. That being said, I am investing in a powertap as well.

How was it measured?

I dont know. I've just been quoting Squint.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=352555&highlight=antelope

"I see from the power data that on this and the previous several hills you were below LT and not in any trouble. The big surge put you over VO2max power so you were relying on AWC. Since you weren't limited by aerobic power, but by your anaerobic capacity, we should cut back on the LT work and add some anaerobic training to the plan in the form of short intervals. For specificity, we'll do the intervals up hill."
or
"Though it might seem like you were dropped because you didn't have the anaerobic capacity to follow the surge over the top, I see from the data, that in fact you were over LT for about 10 minutes before the surge took place. The problem wasn't lack of AWC (which in fact is above average). The problem is a low LT causes you to dip into those reserves earlier than everyone around you so you have nothing left for surges. We need to work more on LT by doing long intervals and tempo rides.


Point being that if I get dropped in a race and am honest with my PE, HR, and in my case GPS data it will show my coach several indicators as to my weak area and what we need to do to fix it. Another gague to help pinpoint what the issue is sure would be nice but im not to that point yet... Maybe one day

Point being that if I get dropped in a race and am honest with my PE, HR, and in my case GPS data it will show my coach several indicators as to my weak area and what we need to do to fix it. Another gague to help pinpoint what the issue is sure would be nice but im not to that point yet... Maybe one day

PT memory is way better than human memory. And it isn't influenced by outside factors, which us humans sure can be.

PT memory is way better than human memory. And it isn't influenced by outside factors, which us humans sure can be.

I'd add that memory and perceived exertion have their limits. Angie Vargas was a top pursuiter for years but never won the National title under her old coach. They were convinced she was limited by her anaerobic capacity. When she changed coaches and got more data, it became clear it was aeorobic, not anaerobic power that was her limiter, she changed her training and won the title the next year. No amount of heart rate data or PE would have been able to separate out these two effects.

Actually my answer lies in the cost versus benefit relationship of the Powertap. I know what the costs are which brings me back to my original question. How has a Powertap improved your cycling?

-s

i wish could give you an answer.

i wish i had one.

i keep thinking i should get a power meter, although i'd prefer to get an SRM.

the thing is, i should be blowing that kind of cash on my work, not my toys.

now that i've got that off my chest, i'll just point out the fact that you're a brand spanking new cat 4 with a wife and a coach.

that means that you're too old to be a pro, but have the cash and interest in going as far as you can with riding.

my first instinct tells me to suggest passing on the power tap. this forum already has far too many newbies with more toys than ability.

that said (or typed as the case may be), if you've got the cash, and the time to commit to getting the most out of the PT, i'd say go for it.

that is all.

On the cost side - I've seen older, standard hubs go on eBay for $250. My wheel with everything cost $400.

i wish could give you an answer.

i wish i had one.

i keep thinking i should get a power meter, although i'd prefer to get an SRM.

the thing is, i should be blowing that kind of cash on my work, not my toys.

now that i've got that off my chest, i'll just point out the fact that you're a brand spanking new cat 4 with a wife and a coach.

that means that you're too old to be a pro, but have the cash and interest in going as far as you can with riding.

my first instinct tells me to suggest passing on the power tap. this forum already has far too many newbies with more toys than ability.

that said (or typed as the case may be), if you've got the cash, and the time to commit to getting the most out of the PT, i'd say go for it.

that is all.

This post elevates the lack of grammar on BF to the level of mediocre abstract art.

Kudos.

This post elevates the lack of grammar on BF to the level of mediocre abstract art.

Kudos.

Your work here is done.

How was it measured?

Yes, they were measured on treadmills and wore face masks. They ran up a 11% incline at 22 mph for 5 min.

What fascinates me are the wind tunnels built for high altitude bird physiology research. The O2 concentration and temperature are lowered to simulate high altitude and the bird flies in place, watching the Spinerval entitled, "DC-10 Wheelwell Stowaway."

You don't see pronghorn antelopes with powermeters yet they're way faster than us.

Have you read Bernd Heinrich's book "Why We Run"? Very interesting on such points, treadmills included.

Yes, they were measured on treadmills and wore face masks. They ran up a 11% incline at 22 mph for 5 min.

Now that would be interesting to watch. This piqued my interest, so I spent a few minutes of quality time with google and pubmed. I found the abstract for the research http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v353/n6346/abs/353748a0.html, but it just says that they "measured the oxygen uptake." Since I can't access the full article to read the methodology without paying, I had resigned myself to to living in ignorance...

Yes, they were measured on treadmills and wore face masks. They ran up a 11% incline at 22 mph for 5 min.

What fascinates me are the wind tunnels built for high altitude bird physiology research. The O2 concentration and temperature are lowered to simulate high altitude and the bird flies in place, watching the Spinerval entitled, "DC-10 Wheelwell Stowaway."

The Pronghorn is the only animal in the world with branched horns (not antlers) and the only animal in the world to shed its horns, as if they were antlers. The Pronghorn, like sheep and goats, has a gall bladder, and like giraffes, lacks dewclaws. If that weren't enough, the Pronghorn is the fastest animal in the western hemisphere, running in 20-foot bounds at up to 60 miles per hour. Unlike the Cheetah, speedburner of the African plains, the Pronghorn can run for hours at quite a fast pace.
The Pronghorn inhabits open plains and semi-deserts, living alone or in small bands in summer and forming large herds in winter. Being highly mobile, the Pronghorn may cover a large area during the year. Pronghorn can survive a temperature range of 180 degrees, from 130 in the deserts to 50 below zero.

Holy hsit! that is one bad mofo.:eek:

source: Desert USA

Now that would be interesting to watch. This piqued my interest, so I spent a few minutes of quality time with google and pubmed. I found the abstract for the research http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v353/n6346/abs/353748a0.html, but it just says that they "measured the oxygen uptake." Since I can't access the full article to read the methodology without paying, I had resigned myself to to living in ignorance...

Lots of hits with these keywords on Google: "pronghorn antelope treadmill"

This is a good article:

http://discovermagazine.com/1992/dec/thepronghornspro172

Seriously, everyone interested in this should get the Heinrich book—it's sort of a memoir, sort of a mediation on the point and demands of sport and exercise by a guy who's both an ultramarathoner and an expert in mitochondrial oxidative physiology. It touches on a lot of these animal endurance experiments, and is actually quite moving.

Lots of hits with these keywords on Google: "pronghorn antelope treadmill"

This is a good article:

http://discovermagazine.com/1992/dec/thepronghornspro172

I was envisioning these as very large animals:

"stands approximately 3-feet tall at the shoulder"

:eek:

More information on the Pronghorn is below. Anyone have a picture of these beasts on the treadmills?


http://books.google.com/books?id=wAa9qq9kbncC&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=pronghorn+antelope+vo2max&source=web&ots=cvp8HR1reC&sig=mzhtObZRIvHumK7cFozZrP2xbIc#PPA38,M1

I think an outstanding name for a college football team would be the Bonghorns.

400 watts

http://www.azstarnet.com/ss/2004/03/07/12866-1.jpg

I think an outstanding name for a college football team would be the Bonghorns.

I see a possible custom cycling jersey design in the works!

This post elevates the lack of grammar on BF to the level of mediocre abstract art.

Kudos.

lack of grammar?

One thing I would add about training with power is that it has definitely helped me understand my body to a much higher degree. When I train on a spare wheelset (no Powertap) I am so much more attune to hitting different tempos and feeling where I am at relative to my limits. Quite possibly the same could be said of using a standard heart rate monitor? Not sure.

Even when I am training in the 'tingle zone' I can break that down into about 3 zones just by 'body feel' thanks mainly to training with power and listening to my body talk.

I am absolutely certain you can reach this level of body understanding without a Powertap but it has 'accelerated' my understanding quite a lot IMO.

Sadly this understanding usually equates to....'right if these cunz hold this tempo up this ***** hill for another 120 seconds I am popped'.

You don't see pronghorn antelopes with powermeters yet they're way faster than us.


http://sterling-ranch.com/foo/PronghornPowermeter.jpg

^nice

i wish could give you an answer.

i wish i had one.

i keep thinking i should get a power meter, although i'd prefer to get an SRM.

the thing is, i should be blowing that kind of cash on my work, not my toys.

now that i've got that off my chest, i'll just point out the fact that you're a brand spanking new cat 4 with a wife and a coach.

that means that you're too old to be a pro, but have the cash and interest in going as far as you can with riding.

my first instinct tells me to suggest passing on the power tap. this forum already has far too many newbies with more toys than ability.

that said (or typed as the case may be), if you've got the cash, and the time to commit to getting the most out of the PT, i'd say go for it.

that is all.


Wise words. Though it sounds like the OP's wife would be happier without a Powertap. Is a podium place in some Podunk Crit really worth disappointing your wife?

My cycling toys have always exceeded my ability. This describes 99.5% of bike weenies. What's your point botto?

blah blah blah everything about why powermeters are good has already been said.

I have one. I use it and find it very useful for any type of ride I do. Intervals of 20 min or less and longer than 30s and recovery rides are when they are the most useful.

I doubt I'd have upgraded to cat 2 this season without using one.

Powermeters hold their value very well if you buy used. Buy one and use it for 6 months. If you don't like it turn around and sell it.

Pronghorn is the fastest animal in the western hemisphere, running in 20-foot bounds at up to 60 miles per hour. Unlike the Cheetah, speedburner of the African plains, the Pronghorn can run for hours at quite a fast pace.

I've been transfusing Pronghorn blood for years. I'm surprised it's just catching on.

Let me boil it down...

Can you afford it without sacrificing other things (mortgage, bills, etc.)?
Do you want one?
Do you think it will help you?

If yes to all 3, then buy the f'ing thing...

Do you know why most of us ride bikes beyond our ability? The same reason my dog licks his balls...

BECAUSE HE CAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

One of the guys I train with regularly has a PhD with a focus on sports and pain management. He's heavily involved with several research projects at the UF Sports Institute, and works closely with the guys who run the cycling performance program at the sports institute.

He's also a techno-junkie and likes a lot of toys to grab as much information as he possibly could..

So, this morning we were out on a 3.5 hour ride, and he mentioned that he should have his powertap back this afternoon from being rebuilt. I used the opportunity to ask what was his honest opinion of training via power.

"Honestly, it's nice to have the data, but for what your looking for, you'd be better off buying a really good heart rate monitor with five programmable zones and then put the left over money into a really nice set of wheels."

Now that would be interesting to watch. This piqued my interest, so I spent a few minutes of quality time with google and pubmed. I found the abstract for the research http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v353/n6346/abs/353748a0.html, but it just says that they "measured the oxygen uptake." Since I can't access the full article to read the methodology without paying, I had resigned myself to to living in ignorance...

I've got it. They're not too specific on methodology actually. Basically it's comparing the Antelope to all the other animals people have apparently studied, noting that they're just better really. Like a graph of how a pronghorn antelope on a WalMart bike could drop a goat on a P3 any day.

Any particular question you want me to dig out? It's a short article.