Living Car Free - Reusable bags!

Where did you guys learn this....from greenpeace or some other wacko organization.

You might as well consult peta on the value of biomedical research.

The articles were from US News & World Report and BBC--both pretty reputable news organizations. They quote field researchers from a couple famous universities too. You don't find these sources to be valid? Maybe you're waiting to hear Rush Limbaugh's take on the issue?

Most plastic bags end up in landfills, part of the millions of tons of plastic garbage Americans dump each year. But whether jettisoned illegally by ships at sea, washed out from land during storms, or, as in the case of the chalupa bags, accidentally lost overboard from containerships, countless tons of plastic refuse end up drifting on the high seas.

You need to read your own quotes better.

What you are arguing is that once it's buried than problem solved. Thats not the case. The point is less plastic needs to be used because it will be around forever.

I'm not going to argue semantics.

The articles were from US News & World Report and BBC--both pretty reputable news organizations. They quote field researchers from a couple famous universities too. You don't find these sources to be valid? Maybe you're waiting to hear Rush Limbaugh's take on the issue?

he he he ...or maybe the plastic companies themselves will come out with some new research. They tend not like publishing reports on their own environmental impact.

http://www.squidoo.com/plasticbags/
http://www.squidoo.com/noplasticbags
http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/bags/default.htm
http://noplasticbags.blogspot.com/
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oceans/la-me-ocean2aug02,0,3130914.story?page=1


These are just a few of the sites I found today.

http://www.squidoo.com/plasticbags/
http://www.squidoo.com/noplasticbags
http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/bags/default.htm
http://noplasticbags.blogspot.com/
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oceans/la-me-ocean2aug02,0,3130914.story?page=1


These are just a few of the sites I found today.


I think that says it all.

Good links.

Most plastic bags end up in landfills, part of the millions of tons of plastic garbage Americans dump each year. But whether jettisoned illegally by ships at sea, washed out from land during storms, or, as in the case of the chalupa bags, accidentally lost overboard from containerships, countless tons of plastic refuse end up drifting on the high seas.

You need to read your own quotes better.

What you are arguing is that once it's buried than problem solved. Thats not the case. The point is less plastic needs to be used because it will be around forever.

I'm not going to argue semantics.

But I'm thinking that the fact that plastic is around forever is a good thing. If the carbon is buried (safely, in an adequate landfill) than it can't contribute to atmospheric changes. Plastic floating in the ocean is probably bad, but is it as bad as carbon dioxide floating in the atmosphere, frying the planet? Is it as bad as carbon dioxide sinking into the oceans, acidifying the sea water?

I don't know the answer, but maybe you do, or somebody else reading this might know. I'm just thinking that burning fossil fuel is the WORST thing to with it, and maybe making plastic is the BEST use for it. Plastic is very useful--cheap, strong, light, versatile, etc. Plastic grocery bags are better than paper ones, and they even take up less space (per bag) in landfills. Do we have to do away with it, or is it possible to use plastic responsibly for the benefit of the environment?

King Soopers gives you a 5 cent discount for each of your own bags you use... but 99% of the time you have to ask for it, or they won't bother.

Our King Soopers has self checkout stands & so you just have to push yes for coupons & they give you the 5 cents or most of the time they see it & put it on for you.....

We bought some called Chicobags & they come in different colors & can carry up to 20 pounds. They work really well & you can put more in them so you don't have to carry 10 bags of groceries. They are also washable so if they get dirty you just throw them in the wash.....;)

But I'm thinking that the fact that plastic is around forever is a good thing. If the carbon is buried (safely, in an adequate landfill) than it can't contribute to atmospheric changes. Plastic floating in the ocean is probably bad, but is it as bad as carbon dioxide floating in the atmosphere, frying the planet? Is it as bad as carbon dioxide sinking into the oceans, acidifying the sea water?

I don't know the answer, but maybe you do, or somebody else reading this might know. I'm just thinking that burning fossil fuel is the WORST thing to with it, and maybe making plastic is the BEST use for it. Plastic is very useful--cheap, strong, light, versatile, etc. Plastic grocery bags are better than paper ones, and they even take up less space (per bag) in landfills. Do we have to do away with it, or is it possible to use plastic responsibly for the benefit of the environment?


I think you have listened to Al "private jet" Gore a little too much. What if we recycle our plastic bags? Is using and recycling bags better or worse than buying canvas ones?

I think you have listened to Al "private jet" Gore a little too much. What if we recycle our plastic bags? Is using and recycling bags better or worse than buying canvas ones?

It's a good thing he flies in a private jet, otherwise it would be harder for people to debunk the agenda he has.

I think you have listened to Al "private jet" Gore a little too much. What if we recycle our plastic bags? Is using and recycling bags better or worse than buying canvas ones?

All types of bags probably have some negative consequences. Paper kills trees and is a landfill problem-- possibly more serious than plastic. Issues with plastic bags have already been well covered in this thread. Reusable fabric bags require the growing of cotton or some other plant, probably using petroleum derived fertilizers, toxic pesticides and huge amounts of nonrenewable water supplies. The reusable/recycled plastic bags mentioned in the OP will wear out eventually, and have to be discarded.

So what are you going to do?

Personally, I think bags are pretty trivial compared to some other environmental nightmares. I concentrate on conserving water and electricity, more efficient home heating, eating organic food, and (of course) not driving.

I read some scary articles about how we are running out of fresh clean water a lot faster than were running out of oil.

Sorry I can't site my source.;)

The reusable/recycled plastic bags mentioned in the OP will wear out eventually, and have to be discarded.

Discarded??? Why not recycled again? And in the meantime, how many bags would they replace?

And yes, there are lots of ways to reduce your impact... things I've never really paid attention to before, but now I am, more and more... mostly because of things I've read on this forum.

Fresh water is a very important resource that we are, indeed, running out of.... it's pretty scary.

It seems some people will look for any reason not to be a little greener. They just think it's crap and don't want any part of it. They'll be the same people waiting in in line for gas when it's 6.60 a gallon. Some people just need to learn the hard way.

Discarded??? Why not recycled again? And in the meantime, how many bags would they replace?

And yes, there are lots of ways to reduce your impact... things I've never really paid attention to before, but now I am, more and more... mostly because of things I've read on this forum.

Fresh water is a very important resource that we are, indeed, running out of.... it's pretty scary.

Don't get me wrong...I think the recycled PE bags are probably better than most alternatives. They would work well in a grocery-bag pannier, I think.

I use my backpack for most shopping. (I know my pack contains plastic, nylon and other petro-crap.) I put the stuff right in it-- apples and potatoes go on the bottom, soft stuff on the top, right in the pack. I do this whether I walk or ride to the market.

But sometimes I do like the plastic bags that I get occasionally. I reuse them to keep my clothes clean & dry inside the pack, when I'm carrying stuff that might leak, and I take them with me to the farmer's market where I buy most of my food.

Does anyone know what ever happened to the nashbar grocery panniers? I saw them for $12 a piece at one point and I put off ordering them. Havent seen them since .....:(

Does it do any good to put those plastic baggies in the recycling spots at stores? I do that with perhaps 97% of my plastic bags, along with other filmy plastics.

It's funny: some decades ago everyone wanted us to stop using paper bags, to save the trees. Right now the paper bags seem like a better deal.

I think like many things recycling is hit or miss, depending on the product, and the location. We had county recycling centers a few years a back, they have since closed because they couldn't find anybody to buy the baled plastics so they ended up in the landfills. I know for a fact when I was doing contract work for a certain large grocery store chain that quite often they would dump the plastic bag recycling bins straight into the dumpster.

To me paper is a slightly better choice over the plastic in that it easier to recycle and comes from a renewable resource. Ditto cotton and hemp. I have cotton canvas boat bags that have been in heavy use for up to 15 years as log carriers, tool bags, grocery bags and general purpose carrying bags. Most of them came from LLBean. I haven't seen too many plastic bags or buckets stand up for that long. Also a paper bag blowing around will eventually disintegrate and if a critter happens to eat one it will pass thru.:rolleyes:

Over packaging is another phenomenon that has to be dealt with, but I have no clue where to start on that one. If I purchase any packaged grocery items I try to buy stuff in glass or cans, they are easier and more likely to be recycled than the plastics. I have yet to figure out why they need to shrink wrap individual potatoes and ears of corn!

Plastics have their place in the world and are useful product, but like many things have been over applied with resulting issues.

Aaron:)

It seems some people will look for any reason not to be a little greener. They just think it's crap and don't want any part of it. They'll be the same people waiting in in line for gas when it's 6.60 a gallon. Some people just need to learn the hard way.

If your talking about me I do not drive and do not own a car.

How much will it cost Al "Too Fat To Bike" Gore to fly across the country in his private jet at $6.60 a gallon? Man, how much will it cost for him to heat and cool his mansion?

I do not take diet tips from Dr. Phil. I do not take financial advice from poor people. So I refuse to take environmental advice from Al Gore.

The reasons are obvious

I'm glad that plastic bags are now being taken by our local stores and recycling centers and I always disliked having to throw them away. The wife and I tried to save them for other purposes, but it seems that they always accumulated faster than our other uses. One more item to keep out of the trash can, and along with my other recycling efforts, it saves me money by not having to set out an extra trash every so often (I now can set out only one regular can every other week if I choose to do so) or have to pay for an extra capacity trash can like the neighbor's which always overflowing.

If your talking about me I do not drive and do not own a car.

How much will it cost Al "Too Fat To Bike" Gore to fly across the country in his private jet at $6.60 a gallon? Man, how much will it cost for him to heat and cool his mansion?

I do not take diet tips from Dr. Phil. I do not take financial advice from poor people. So I refuse to take environmental advice from Al Gore.

The reasons are obvious

Obvious reasons but not very reasonable reasons. Your personal understanding of Gore's personal habits is unrelated to the validity of his message about global warming, which is based on scientific consensus. The messenger and the message are not the same thing-- one of the fundamental "rules" of rational discourse.

Obvious reasons but not very reasonable reasons. Your personal understanding of Gore's personal habits is unrelated to the validity of his message about global warming, which is based on scientific consensus. The messenger and the message are not the same thing-- one of the fundamental "rules" of rational discourse.

I'm glad you said it. I have a hard time coming up with a rational argument when dealing with such nonsense.

Still no one has answered my previous question. Do you throw your garbage away in plastic bags that you bought, would it not be better to use the grocery store bags. They get double duty carry your groceries and your garbage. Bought garbage bags just have one life.

Still no one has answered my previous question. Do you throw your garbage away in plastic bags that you bought, would it not be better to use the grocery store bags. They get double duty carry your groceries and your garbage. Bought garbage bags just have one life.

Yes, the wife and I use them for garbage disposal, and line our smaller trash cans, but I still use one bought garbage bag every week for our large kitchen trash can.

Obvious reasons but not very reasonable reasons. Your personal understanding of Gore's personal habits is unrelated to the validity of his message about global warming, which is based on scientific consensus. The messenger and the message are not the same thing-- one of the fundamental "rules" of rational discourse.

Al Gore is an environmental fraud.

Al Gore is an environmental fraud.

Mature adults will consider the data rather than respond to their personal like or dislike of a given individual.

Al Gore is an environmental fraud.

It's a good thing there are so many thousands of far more qualified, educated individuals devoting their full attention to the subject, so we don't have to depend on Al Gore's interpretation of some prepared summaries.

It's so funny. Every time I mention someting about waste or whatever, someone always brings up Al Gore and airplanes. The irony is I've never even seen that movie everyone was talking about a while back. I have no idea what he's ever said about grocery bags or airplanes. :lol:

It's so funny. Every time I mention someting about waste or whatever, someone always brings up Al Gore and airplanes. The irony is I've never even seen that movie everyone was talking about a while back. I have no idea what he's ever said about grocery bags or airplanes. :lol:
It is funny. I never saw the Gore documentary either, even though I've been on the global warming bandwagon for more than 30 years now. The airplane issue is usually brought up by somebody who took logic lessons from Rush Limbaugh.

Remember the plastic bag swirling in the wind in that movie a few years ago? Magnolia or American Beauty, I can't remember which. That's the only cinematic reference to plastic bags that I can recall.

plastic bags is a very real problem.

There is hardly a consensus on global warming.

plastic bags is a very real problem.

There is hardly a consensus on global warming.

Okay, whatever gets you through the night....

Who causes more global warming?

Gosmsgo who lives in a shoe box and does not drive or Al Gore.

It does not matter what I do or do not believe.

...Reusable fabric bags require the growing of cotton or some other plant, probably using petroleum derived fertilizers, toxic pesticides and huge amounts of nonrenewable water supplies. The reusable/recycled plastic bags mentioned in the OP will wear out eventually, and have to be discarded.

So what are you going to do?

Personally, I think bags are pretty trivial compared to some other environmental nightmares. I concentrate on conserving water and electricity, more efficient home heating, eating organic food, and (of course) not driving.

+1.

I watched a talk given by Patagonia's founder Yvon Chouinard, in which he described the devastation caused by commercial non-organic cotton farming. If your cotton bags are not made from organic cotton, the environment paid a concealed price for it which I'll wager is in line with the damage from plastic bags.

For me, the take home message is to be mindful of our actions. Plastic, cotton or hemp, as long as we are mindful of how to use them, all can make our lives better without shortchanging our environment too much. As shown by the multitude of examples in this thread, the plastic grocery bags can be recycled, much as cotton can be grown organically to lessen environmental impact.

More importantly, use the Pareto principle of concentrating 20% of our efforts into making 80% of useful change.

What do you guys use for garbage bags at home? I use the plastic bags I get from the grocery store. I figure it's better doing that than buying bags just to throw away. What do you think? Otherwise you use cloth grocery bags then buy plastic bags to throw away your trash. Seems like a catch 22.

I split the difference. I use cloth on most trips and plastic on a few random things, for the bin liner.
Bmclaughlin:
who taught them to bag groceries? Special ed.

Still no one has answered my previous question. Do you throw your garbage away in plastic bags that you bought, would it not be better to use the grocery store bags. They get double duty carry your groceries and your garbage. Bought garbage bags just have one life.

Our weekly garbage will usually fit in one plastic grocery bag. We buy as many products as we can with recycling in mind. The vegetable food scraps, egg shells, coffee grounds and the like go in a bucket on the counter that gets dumped in the compost pile/bin. Some veggie scraps and seeds will get tossed out for the free range guineas to eat. If there are any leftovers that aren't going to get eaten they go to the dog(s). If I used plastic grocery bags I would have the spontaneous reproduction problem, as in if you leave them in the dark in a corner they will multiply;) My sister has that problem, she stuffs them in a mesh bag hanging in her laundry, at least 3 times a year she has to empty out the bags:rolleyes:

Aaron:)

how do they mess up the environment?

They require petrochemicals to produce for one, for two they break down into stuff you don't want to drink or grow your food with, for three, they look like crap when people litter them.....in conclusion, they are wasteful, chemically bad for the environment and aesthetically displeasing to the eye. Enough of a reason in my opinion.

Also, they really aren't free, as in the price of your groceries costs more because of them. It is an externalized cost that you don't see, but you get to pay for.

A journey begins with the first step. If in using a cloth bag or a recycled bag to fetch the groceries and refusing plastic bags I help to make another person think about the way they live then it has to be a good thing. On the other hand by making the choice to refuse plastic I keep my own housekeeping in order by reminding myself to tread more lightly on the planet whenever I begin to waver.
Packaging is a major problem though. Due to checkout scanners being used in most large stores everything needs to have a barcode. When scanner technology came here all manner of products that had been formally 'naked' and could be purchased loose suddenly aquired packaging so that they could carry a barcode. As much as possible I try to avoid packed goods, but it's really hard to do when it comes to certain kinds of products.
Apart from cloth bags I really like using wicker baskets as well; - as you can see from this photo......
http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1254/anniesherculestrike2md8.jpg

I'm endevouring to learn how to do basketwork as baskets are truly the ultimate in being a 'Green' container option.

Btw, - before anyone comments, - the red Datsun 120Y belongs to my 85 year old Mum and only gets used when I need to take her to appointments & etc due to her reduced mobility. The motorcycle under the cover is my old Suzuki 500 twin ('Ginny') and I'm no longer allowed to ride her due to this illness I live with. I'm going to have to sell Ginny and I feel really sad about it http://img222.imageshack.us/img222/7655/smileyfaces35tm8.gif

Walmart is starting to lean hard on their suppliers to reduce packaging. I noticed the yogur that I typically buy there used to come with a plastic lid and a seal underneath. Now they just have the foil seal.

They will lean on their suppliers for "green" reasons the same way they have for fiscal reasons and its going to start to add up quickly.

Mature adults will consider the data rather than respond to their personal like or dislike of a given individual.

The talk without the walk is not a position to be respected. But in all fairness, he is a politician first.


It's a good thing there are so many thousands of far more qualified, educated individuals devoting their full attention to the subject, so we don't have to depend on Al Gore's interpretation of some prepared summaries.

Yes, absolutely.:beer:

A journey begins with the first step. If in using a cloth bag or a recycled bag to fetch the groceries and refusing plastic bags I help to make another person think about the way they live then it has to be a good thing. On the other hand by making the choice to refuse plastic I keep my own housekeeping in order by reminding myself to tread more lightly on the planet whenever I begin to waver.
Packaging is a major problem though. Due to checkout scanners being used in most large stores everything needs to have a barcode. When scanner technology came here all manner of products that had been formally 'naked' and could be purchased loose suddenly aquired packaging so that they could carry a barcode. As much as possible I try to avoid packed goods, but it's really hard to do when it comes to certain kinds of products.
Apart from cloth bags I really like using wicker baskets as well; - as you can see from this photo....

I'm endevouring to learn how to do basketwork as baskets are truly the ultimate in being a 'Green' container option.

Btw, - before anyone comments, - the red Datsun 120Y belongs to my 85 year old Mum and only gets used when I need to take her to appointments & etc due to her reduced mobility. The motorcycle under the cover is my old Suzuki 500 twin ('Ginny') and I'm no longer allowed to ride her due to this illness I live with. I'm going to have to sell Ginny and I feel really sad about it

You seem like a real classy dame. I mean, you manage to make things in your life beautiful as well as practical and simple. It's very cool. Do you know anything about the Shakers, a religious sect in 19th century America? They were into baskets, and they made these incredible oval boxes out of thin slices of wood.

One thing I like to do is avoid the large stores as much as possible. I like to shop in small markets and deal with the owners. I spend a little more, but I get so much value for a few more pennies.