Road Cycling - Which would you buy?

I have a deposit down on a cannondale r1000 ($1699) however I just received a copy of the latest Colorado Cyclist catalog which shows a Ti Douglas bike on sale for $1849.00 with full Ultegra components.

If I can get a titanium bike with full Ultegra components, why should I buy the Cannondale (aluminum)? If I spend an extra $50 bucks I can have a Ti bike. Not all titanium is the same I suppose, which is why it's so cheap. Any thoughts?

Cannondale $1699 *1.06 = 1800.94 after tax

Douglas Precision Ti $1849 no tax http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=28306&CGRFNBR=735&CRPCGNBR=735&CI=1,263,701,735&TextMode=0

My apologies in advance for a long reply:

It's my understanding that welding titanium is a more complex process than welding steel or aluminum and requires very strict quality controls. I suspect that this is a big reason why Ti frames tend to be more expensive in general than Al or steel.

It would be interesting to discover who makes the frames for Douglas, and what level of experience, skill and certification their welders have with Ti. Why such an inexpensive Ti frame indeed?

Obviously I don't have the answers, but personally I'd rather drop my cash on a frame that I know is made well vs. one of unknown quality. Regardless of material.

Plus, your LBS can can ensure that whatever bike you buy fits. But if you're at all uncertain of you're sizing, fit will always be a bit of a risk going the mail-order route.

I am a former mechanic and I NEVER worked on a Canondale that had a straight frame, because of this, it was almost always a challenge to get the drivetrain to work right.

I've been told that Canondale only aligns their frames to within 4mm tolerance while most quality builders would align closer to/than .4mm

I've found many other problems with them as well, but I'm tired of typing

Sorry, but I don't know much about Douglas

Ride Far
Pat

Check the warranties on the frames. Cannondale is lifetime warranty. I believe the Douglas frames, be they aluminum or ti, have a limited warranty.

The reason, I believe, is that they load up the bikes with the best components and sell them as loss leaders. In order to not take a beating, they skimp where they can - on the frame. The limited warranty points to this.

As to Cannondale frames not being straight, I have been researching road bikes for several months with an eye towards purchasing mid-2004. I have decided on a Cannondale R1000 and have done extensive research not only on the R1000, but the CAAD7/Optima aluminum frames, the construction, the durability, the company's customer service..every aspect. I have talked to many wrenches and Cannondale owners have this is the first I have ever heard of any problem with the frame, other than the usual complaints about it being stiff.

In your shoes, I would stay with the Cannondale R1000, especially at $1700. I assume it is a 2003 model end of model year sale as the list is $1900. Be that as it may, I would advise sticking with the R1000. It is a fantastic bike.

Cannondale is one of the few companies that aligns and checks their frames to very high tolerances. Higher than most mass-produced frames in this price range. I have never seen, rode or heard of a mis-aligned Cannondale.

I have ridden many other frames that were not properly aligned.
To have frame alignment affect drivetrain performance, the frame would have to be substantially off-center. It would have to out of alignment more than normal deflection caused by standing on the pedals by a heavy rider.

To say C'dale would put out frames that are nearly half a CM out is total BS. That would mean the rear tire would be hanging out next to the downtube and not behind it! That would mean you could not put a wheel in the dropouts because the centers would be so off.

I have never heard of such a thing with Cannondale. They are proudly made in the USA, CAD-CAM designed and tubes assembled by the same welders that put together DIV 1 bikes.

If, in fact, a Cannondale frame were that far out, it would be a warranty item anyway and you would get a new frame for free.

edit:
As to if the Douglas is a better buy, who knows. I don't know who makes them, where the ti tubes are manufactured, the quality or ride characteristics. Ti frames such as Litespeed offer a lifetime warranty, which is one of the reasons to buy ti from Litespeed or Merlin, etc.

You could buy a generic aluminum frame for much less than a Cannondale frame and I would ask why you would buy a C'dale over a generic aluminum brand. Use that same criteria for the Douglas Ti. Do some research and see what's right for you.
Good Luck.

Another factor to consider is the alloy. Ti tends to work best in bike frame applications in alloy form, one of the stronger ones being 4 percent Vanadium and 2.5 percent Aluminum, seen as 4v/2.5al. Disclaimer; I think I got that right, but I'm no metallurgist, so those numbers may or may not be factual. You get the gist though. You could spend a couple of thousand dollars for a lightweight alloy custom steel frame, or a couple hundred for an entire Huffy, and they are both made of steel, right?

Originally posted by Buzzbomb
... I'm no metallurgist, so those numbers may or may not be factual.

I'm no metallurgist either, but the usual Ti alloys are 3AL/2.5V or 6AL/4V. The latter is claimed to be even 'stronger' than the former (the Litespeed Vortex is one of the few bikes to employ this material); the downside is that it's hardly available in tubes (6AL/4V comes in 'plates', which are rolled into tubes.

The Douglas is listed as 3AL/2.5V. In that sense, it resembles high-end bikes such as Seven, Merlin, Litespeed.

Apart from alloy, one should also the quality and shape of the tubes.

Don't know whether the Douglas is a good bike in that respect.

BTW, there are other 'cheap' Ti options in the States. Excel Sports and Jenson sell a frame that is built by Litespeed and is sort of identical to the Arenberg (Macalu and Zion, respectively).

While I do not care for the ride qualities of aluminum, I ride with two local bicycle clubs and there are plenty of C'dales and the owners have nothing but good things to say about them. On the other side, I have never seen a Douglas bicycle on the road. This includes not only the local club rides but the half dozen century and tours I do each year. My guess is that the Douglas Ti frameset is made in China. You can always ask them. The folks at CC's technical help line are always helpful, in my experience (I use their wheels). Give them a call and ask. But I would choose the C'dale. But, I would also go with Campagnolo.

Originally posted by bumpdog
I have a deposit down on a cannondale r1000 ($1699) however I just received a copy of the latest Colorado Cyclist catalog which shows a Ti Douglas bike on sale for $1849.00 with full Ultegra components.

If I can get a titanium bike with full Ultegra components, why should I buy the Cannondale (aluminum)? If I spend an extra $50 bucks I can have a Ti bike. Not all titanium is the same I suppose, which is why it's so cheap. Any thoughts?

Cannondale $1699 *1.06 = 1800.94 after tax

Douglas Precision Ti $1849 no tax http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=28306&CGRFNBR=735&CRPCGNBR=735&CI=1,263,701,735&TextMode=0
You should get the R1000 for less if its an 03.

Originally posted by ParamountScapin
there are plenty of C'dales and the owners have nothing but good things to say about them

I have ridden a CAAD2 and the bike was not bad (albeit too harsh for me). Too bad it wasn't my size and came with some inferior components (bottom bracket, CODA brakes and hubs, ...).


I have never seen a Douglas bicycle on the road.

Most of the bikes currently in production I have never seen on the road. That includes some very good ones. :)


My guess is that the Douglas Ti frameset is made in China.

Colorado claims that the Douglas is USA designed and manufactured. It should be possible to find out where and whether it is done by a 'big' or 'name' company. (Like, e.g., Litespeed manufactures Merlin.) Or by some mass welder (the 'Giant' of titanium).

What if it were produced in China? Would anything be wrong with that? I think that Airborne frames are manufactured there; I have hear some very positive comments on those (including by some Forum members).

Or Russia? Isn't it the case that Colnago's ti frames are produced in Russia? Considering the fact that those are terribly expensive, yet widely used, Russia per se is not evil. ;)

Am I the only one who has a problem supporting a company like Cannondale that has been bankrupt and bailed out? I would put my money on Douglas for this reason only.

I think you are. Cannondale USA filed bankruptcy because of the motorsport division. Cannondale Europe has and remains profitable. Cannondale bicycles remains has and remains very profitable.
They killed the motorsport division and is once again a bicycle-only operation. Why would financial mismanagement sway you against Cannondale? they are now backed by a strong investment backer and only make products that have always been very profitable.
They remain wholly designed and handmade in the USA.

If anything, I think people would want to buy Cannondale.

Hi,
it sounds like the CannonBomb is at a LBS. That counts for a lot. I had some problems with my bike, and they took care of me. While I got the frame over the net; I got the parts from them. A couple times during the building when things went got screwy, they simply fixed it; and that was that.

If anything, I think people would want to buy Cannondale.

I agree. I'm sure that the mechanics and the engineers were not the ones who were managing the company. I'm not even considering the bankruptcy issue in making my decision to buy the C'Dale. I've heard only good things about this R1000 and I am leaning towards it. Again, I was just intrigued by the low cost of the TI Douglas and the components that come with it.

I really appreciate all of the feedback on this subject. I've learned a little more about the TI bikes and may possibly give CC a call just to see what the guys who work there think of the bikes.

Originally posted by shokhead
You should get the R1000 for less if its an 03.

How much less? They seem to be selling them awefully fast so the LBS was not willing to go crazy low. They only had one left in the color that I wanted.

What do you think is a good price for it?

I just went to one other place to check a price and supergo had it for 1599.

LEt's not forget ride quality, which you really can't experience and, apparently, no one can attest to with regards to the Douglas. I look at it this way: If you can get a frame in one material built by someone that does the job incredibly well and uses incredible materials, or you can get a bargain basement frame built by who knows who from who knows what, go with the better frame. I'd vote for the 'Dale. You'll get a stiff but good riding bike and, as someone else has pointed out, the support of your shop after the sale.

All we need to counter this argument is someone with a Douglas frame to speak up and tell us what their experience has been.

Originally posted by Bruco
Colorado claims that the Douglas is USA designed and manufactured. It should be possible to find out where and whether it is done by a 'big' or 'name' company.

If Colorado Cyclist advertises that their frame is made in the US, it's made in the US. I personally would have no problem buying the Douglas. I think it's made here:

www.titaniumsports.com/road.html

I own a frame made by this company, and it is virtually indistinguishable from a Litespeed. Same quality welds, etc... with thick dropouts, large diameter chainstays, oversize tubing, etc... If you took the decals off my Tisport bike and off a Litespeed and put them next to each other, it would be hard for an untrained eye to tell the difference. These people spend all day every day working with nothing but Ti. I would think they know what they're doing.

And it is much more comfortable than my "Cannonball".

I'd want to know more about the Douglas before I wrote it off, sometimes these smaller firms offer a real bargain. You might not get welds that have been filed smooth but that doesn't mean they'll be inadequate. Maybe it'll be simply polished metal rather than lovingly painted - do these cosmetic issues matter to you? If the ride is good and it's made well enough... Certainly on the MTB side you can get well recieved Ti frames from small companies such as Global and On-one for not that much money... Of course the Douglas might not be that good but I'd look further if you can - try contacting the company direct

don, which 'dale frame do you have. Let's not compare a CAAD3 to the new Optimo. That said, if your frame is built by the same folks that build Douglas, we need more input from folks like you. But, are you sure that they're the same folks?

Let's remember too that one person's uncomfortable frame is another's perfect frame. Ti will be smoother (as a rule, you anti-generalizations folks just calm down), but alu will have a stiffer bottom bracket (again, calm).

The biggest problem is lack of ability to find out how the Douglas frame rides or who makes it. And the whole LBS support thing comes in to play.

Originally posted by ImprezaDrvr
don, which 'dale frame do you have. Let's not compare a CAAD3 to the new Optimo.

Why not? What does anyone know about a Cannondale frame? Do you know what the tube wall thickness is on a CAAD3?, on a CAAD6?, on an OPTIMO? All we know is the marketing terms Cannondale uses. Noone knows the specs because they are not published, precisely so that Cannondale can give the aura of added value in an upgrade with a decal. I know what the wall thickness is on every tube in my Tisport frame. As a former employee in the bike business and in a frame shop, this means alot to me.


Are you sure that they're the same folks?

No one can be sure because...Colorado Cyclist won't say. No one would. But there are only so many Ti builders in the US. If it's not Tisports, then it is probably Sandvik, because Sandvik, whick makes high quality Ti tubing for the bicycle industry, also manufacturers frames under contract to various brands. They have the highest reputation. So, you choose.




And the whole LBS support thing comes in to play.

If you have a bike shop that you believe is acting in your best interests and is doing everything reasonably possible to satisfy your needs as a customer, then you should support them.

If however, your LBS does not meet the above criteria, then I would buy mailorder in a New York minute. The LBS does not deserve your business. You deserve good service. Colorado Cyclist will provide that. And it would be wrong to buy mailorder "just to save the tax" if your LBS is giving you good service.

caad3 up to caad6 are all 6000-series aluminum. caad7 (Optimo) is 7000 series aluminum. It is proprietary formulation--meaning only Cannondale can use this mix of alloys. There is only one caad7-drawn alloy tubes, no imitations.
caad7 uses very different shaped tubes compared to a 6,5 or 3. the geometry is different in the 7 too.

Just me,,, but I think Id put my money on the Canondale. I like havine a trustable name behind the bike. It will be much easier to sell, down the road too. You probably wont keep it forever. The plus side to the Douglas, would be stripping the components and rebuilding another frame later. I know alot more happy Canondale owners than Douglas. That means alot to me.

Originally posted by RacerX
caad3 up to caad6 are all 6000-series aluminum. caad7 (Optimo) is 7000 series aluminum. It is proprietary formulation--meaning only Cannondale can use this mix of alloys. There is only one caad7-drawn alloy tubes, no imitations.
caad7 uses very different shaped tubes compared to a 6,5 or 3. the geometry is different in the 7 too.

What does all this tell us? Not much. Oh yea, it tells us it's proprietary.

When I go to the Dedaiccai website, I can get exact tube wall thickness dimensions on every tube at the butts and in the middle. I can get info on what 7003 means. I can get exact profiles of every tube at every point on the tube. When I go to the Pinarello website, I can get tube wall thickness' for every tube set for every frame, info that will allow me to make a decision about what frame might best suit a rider of my weight and riding style. If I want a super light throw away alu frame for the absolute max competitive edge, I can get one with tube walls to match. If I want a heavier alu frame for longevity or criterium riding, I can get info on that to.

With Cannondale? Well they do give the frame geometry. I'll give them that. After that, shouldn't we just trust them anyway?

The reason Dedaiccai gives you all that is because they sell tubes. they are giving you specs on the product they sell. They sell tubes to manufacturers like Pinarello to make bikes.

Jesus dude, if you want to know the specific details ASK THEM. You do have email right?
Since Cannondale invested alot of money and time developing the alloy, thickness and tube shapes I don't blame them for not wanting to publish specifics. If you want to know more than what is published then go do it already.
Optimo is an industry standard in aluminum tubing, meaning a benchmark others are trying to replicate.

Honestly I don't think you could go wrong with either bikes. I prefer Ti. Have you ever been on a Ti bike? I'd suggest trying Ti before mail ordering the Douglas cause Ti isn't for everyone, some people actually prefer the bone shattering ride of a Cannondale :) Seriously though I don't think you could make a mistake going either way.

This will actually be my first road bike and I have never been on a Ti bike. The one thing that is very attractive is the fact that you do have the support of the local shop. When I first went into this shop the guy literally spent an hour with me talking about everything that goes into building the C'dale. This guy has worked at a few bike shops and this is what he does. He was great to talk to because being a computer guy, I like to hear all of the technical crap that makes most people's eyes glaze over. Having said that, I know that this is the kind of shop that will stand by their products and give me the best fit possible before my bike leaves the shop. And, if it doesn't fit after I've ridden it, they'll fix it.

As for Colorado Cyclist, I've heard lots of good thing about this place. As I said earlier, I have a buddy who ordered a bike from them and it didn't fit so he sent it back for a brand new one. Not bad. If I lived in Colorado I might consider buying the Douglas. However, I don't want to have to keep mailing it back and forth to get it right. Once I've been riding for a while and know how my bike should be set up, then I may take the chance of ordering it online (no tax!).

So, having little experience about what I will like, i will probably go with the Dale. Make a few upgrades and hopefully it will be great.

Thanks again,

Well, don, ride a CAAD3 then an Optimo, and tell me that they're the same frame. I've done it. They're not. At least we know that Cannondale makes their own bikes and, if one were to contact them, one would find out the frame wall thicknesses, etc. Call CC and see if you can get that info.

I'm not saying that Douglas is a bad bike, just that no one knows very much for sure about them

Back to the LBS stuff, I wholeheartedly agree with you, don, in that I would order a bike through mail order in a second. The flipside is that we both have worked in shops and ridden long enough to know exactly what we're looking for. Hell, my new bike was purchased over the phone after talking to a lot of folks and shopping online. But a person newer to the roadie scene needs a good shop to help them with subtle fit issues, etc. that would take them some doing to remedy on their own. I know that it's completely possible to learn everything there is to know online, but it's better (IMHO) to have a relationship with a shop that will steer you in the right direction. Hands on expert advice beats the intarweb any day of the week.

Besides that, supporting local shops keeps them open.

bump, I think you're doing yourself good with the frame and staying with a shop.

Originally posted by ImprezaDrvr
Well, don, ride a CAAD3 then an Optimo, and tell me that they're the same frame.

Who said they were the same frame? What are you talking about...? I said that we don't know what the difference is from one to another.


if one were to contact them, one would find out the frame wall thicknesses, etc.

I was a Cannondale dealer. This info is unavailable. It is proprietary, a secret. If you can get this info as you say you can, post it here for the benefit of others. It will be a real contribution to the forum. And I'll look forward to seeing you back up your claim.

You say that "we've both worked in shops and ridden long enough...". I thought in your other posts you said you were a bike assembler for a few months during college? Aren't you still riding the CAAD3 you bought there? I thought you canceled the CAAD7?

Oh by the way, if you worked in the bicycle business, how could you not know that there are only two major Ti manufacturers in the US building for other brands, and that the Douglas would have had to be built by one of them, and that both of them have very high reputations? Who made the Mongoose Ti frames? You are familiar with those frames, right?:rolleyes:

bumpdog - you'll owe us a pic once you get your new ride. Then come out to the shore for a ride - see www.shorecycleclub.org for our rides listing. Good luck and have fun!

Originally posted by don d.
Oh by the way, if you worked in the bicycle business, how could you not know that there are only two major Ti manufacturers in the US building for other brands, and that the Douglas would have had to be built by one of them, and that both of them have very high reputations? Who made the Mongoose Ti frames? You are familiar with those frames, right?

I was told that one of those Ti frame makers is actually based close to me and is located in Kent, WA. Same source told me they used to make the pre-2003 (pre-2002?) LeMond Ti frames among others.

Originally posted by khuon
I was told that one of those Ti frame makers is actually based close to me and is located in Kent, WA. Same source told me they used to make the pre-2003 (pre-2002?) LeMond Ti frames among others.

Same info I have.

Originally posted by bumpdog
I have a deposit down on a cannondale r1000 ($1699) however I just received a copy of the latest Colorado Cyclist catalog which shows a Ti Douglas bike on sale for $1849.00 with full Ultegra components.

If I can get a titanium bike with full Ultegra components, why should I buy the Cannondale (aluminum)? If I spend an extra $50 bucks I can have a Ti bike. Not all titanium is the same I suppose, which is why it's so cheap. Any thoughts?

Cannondale $1699 *1.06 = 1800.94 after tax

Douglas Precision Ti $1849 no tax http://www.coloradocyclist.com/common/products/productdisplay2_v2.cfm?PRRFNBR=28306&CGRFNBR=735&CRPCGNBR=735&CI=1,263,701,735&TextMode=0

Where do you live, so I can go there and have a 1.06% sales tax!!?!?!?!?! Taxachusetts, I mean, Massachusetts is 5%!

-Dan the Man-

I'm surprised that Cannondale (or any manufacturer for that matter) would try to keep tuning thicknesses "secret". If any competetor wanted to know, they would just buy a bike and (gasp) cut it up.

But, even if you did know that information, what could you do with it? Would you really be able to tell the difference between a tube that has 0.075" wall compared to .007" wall? Would the diameters really be that meaningful? If you knew the alloy content, would the percentage of chromum, nickel, and vanadium really tell you anything about the ride?

And, it's all about the ride. It sounds like the Douglas would be bought sight unseen. For an advanced rider, with a great feel for how top tube length and fork offset are going to apply to fit, great. For most of the rest of us, it's much more satisfying to ride the bike and KNOW that it is the bike for you. Even if that means that you are missing out on a "great deal".

Originally posted by ockey53
Where do you live, so I can go there and have a 1.06% sales tax!!?!?!?!?! Taxachusetts, I mean, Massachusetts is 5%!

-Dan the Man-

You have nothing to complain about! calif is 8.25% and there is talk of raising it further.

Originally posted by lurker
I'm surprised that Cannondale (or any manufacturer for that matter) would try to keep tuning thicknesses "secret". If any competetor wanted to know, they would just buy a bike and (gasp) cut it up.

I don't think it's that want to keep it secret- but the fact that it is proprietary to Cannondale so that if anyone did copy the tubing/alloy, it would be very easy to prove. Cannondale doesn't publish the info so for someone to copy it, they would have had to intentionally bought, cutup and duplicate it. Legal issues.


Originally posted by lurker
But, even if you did know that information, what could you do with it? Would you really be able to tell the difference between a tube that has 0.075" wall compared to .007" wall? Would the diameters really be that meaningful? If you knew the alloy content, would the percentage of chromum, nickel, and vanadium really tell you anything about the ride?

And, it's all about the ride. It sounds like the Douglas would be bought sight unseen. For an advanced rider, with a great feel for how top tube length and fork offset are going to apply to fit, great. For most of the rest of us, it's much more satisfying to ride the bike and KNOW that it is the bike for you. Even if that means that you are missing out on a "great deal".

I agree. It doesn't even matter where the frame is made since you have no idea to which geometry, what quality of tubing, who designed the frames and for what type of riding it was made for.

You (generally speaking, no one in particular) sure can assume alot of things if you want to about a "generic" but that's why it costs alot less than a leading brand. Who knows, it could be a bargain or it could be crap. Maybe it's just you get what you pay for and it's just "average" and not really a bargain.

Originally posted by don d.
Do you know what the tube wall thickness is on a CAAD3?, on a CAAD6?, on an OPTIMO? All we know is the marketing terms Cannondale uses. Noone knows the specs because they are not published, precisely so that Cannondale can give the aura of added value in an upgrade with a decal.


I think this statement may have led people to think you were implying that all the caad frames were the same.

I don't expect master chefs to publish their recipies and it doesn't bother me in the least if Cannondale does or not.

As with a great meal, I care about the final product and the excellence achieved.

Multiplying an amount by 1.06 = 6% sales tax. So your 5% Taxachusets tax is actually less :p

Originally posted by ockey53
Where do you live, so I can go there and have a 1.06% sales tax!!?!?!?!?! Taxachusetts, I mean, Massachusetts is 5%!

-Dan the Man-

Silly man, instead of multiplying the $1699*.06 to just get the tax, you can multiply the $1699 * 1.06 to get the end result which is $1800.94.

LOL! NJ is 6% sales tax. I'm just goofing on you. I'm not trying to be mean.

If you want to get an even better deal, go to Delaware. No sales tax!

Originally posted by RacerX
I don't think it's that want to keep it secret- but the fact that it is proprietary to Cannondale so that if anyone did copy the tubing/alloy, it would be very easy to prove. Cannondale doesn't publish the info so for someone to copy it, they would have had to intentionally bought, cutup and duplicate it. Legal issues.


Actually, buying your competitors product to discect happens all the time in all industries. Once something is out on the market, there is little to no protection. And it is very easy to tweak something just enough to satisfy the lawyers.

In some industries, companies wharehoues full of competitors products; discected and ready for detailed examination. They are commonly used in the design process.

Most lawsuits of this type are related to patents. In the patent, you need to describe exactly whay you are doing, so your competitors know all of the key facts. But, they can't do anything with it.

The proprietary label really just means how the documents are supposed to be handled. Many companies go overboard with the marking. I've seen that label on fundamental equations that are found in your average textbook.

lurker, you are right, every industry buys the newest model from the competition to tear it down and examine.

I worked for General Motors and we used to do that all the time. Once we took a brand new fully loaded BMW 5 series and stripped it down to the frame to find out how it was engineered. A true shame.

Originally posted by shokhead
I just went to one other place to check a price and supergo had it for 1599.

Where on their site did you see this? If it's the "in store" portion of their site, it's not going to do me much good. I live in NJ. It's down to $1449 on the site now.