Advocacy & Safety - Motorcyclists consider streets unsafe due to bad drivers

Motorcycle vets wary of Arizona drivers: http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/101205

Does it sound familiar?

"“It’s too (expletive) dangerous to ride a bike (in Arizona),” Mueller said. “It’s one of those places where I get the feeling like someone is after me.”"

"...and at least twice a day he gets cut-off by cars."

"Born in South Africa, Mueller has traveled by motorcycle in a 142 different countries across the world, and he says Arizona is one of the most dangerous places he has ever ridden. He has lived in Arizona for nine years."

"And lawmakers say more driver education is needed"

"But Weiers said the state’s laws are sufficient to protect motorcyclists. He said people driving their vehicles recklessly are part of the problem, and that distractions cause drivers not to follow traffic signals and slow down."

“We have all the laws we need,” he said. “We just need people to follow them.”"

"Pat “Pooh Bear” Conley, chairman of the Arizona Confederation of Motorcycle Clubs, said educating drivers on motorcycle safety would cut down on the number of motorcycle deaths every year.
Conley said it’s easy to pick out the uneducated drivers because they are on the lookout for something the size of a truck on the road, rather than for smaller vehicles such as motorcycles."

"As the chairman of a lobbying body for the Legislature, Conley said he would like to see more money invested in driver education, and that more high schools should offer driver-education classes."

maybe there should be "segragated facilities" for these motorcycles? ;)

Of course motorcycles shouldn't be on the same roads with cars.

to paraphrase one of A&S's esteemed safety nannies, it's the motorcyclists' fault for not riding better.

The only thing I miss from my many years of motorcycle riding is the brute acceleration power, many times I wish my bicycle engine had the same strength when working heavy traffic. Granted that motorcycles have a more powerful headlamp, but a lot of motorcyclists in my area choose to wear black leathers, black helmets, or dark clothing which makes them more difficult to see, especially when they travel up to 2 to 3 times the speed of a bicyclist.

to paraphrase one of A&S's esteemed safety nannies, it's the motorcyclists' fault for not riding better.

That is touched on in the article as well:

"Weiers said motorcycle riders have to be “totally conscious” and “constantly on the edge” in order to stay safe on Arizona roads."

"Richard Fimbres, director of the governor’s Office of Highway Safety, is a member of the Motorcycle Safety Advisory Council, which provides education, training and awareness for those who ride motorcycles or with to learn how to ride.
As the fastest growing state in the nation, we have a lot more people on the road,” Fimbres said. “There are very young, inexperienced riders and older riders who don’t realize that bikes are more powerful, and their reaction time is a lot slower.”

"Conley said he became a much safer rider after he took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course when he was 40 years old.

“We’re just another vehicle on the road,” he said. “We’re not more dangerous, so to speak, it’s just that we tend to lose sometimes.
Kurt Smith, a salesman at Chandler Harley Davidson, is also a big advocate for education and rider safety.
“All bikers try to be safe and we want to be heard.” Smith said. “No matter where you’re at you have to be cautious.”"

maybe motorcyclists should adopt their own, personal brand of riding to avoid those motorists that disregard the same laws the motorcyclists will? ;)

That is touched on in the article as well:

"Weiers said motorcycle riders have to be “totally conscious” and “constantly on the edge” in order to stay safe on Arizona roads."...

"Conley said he became a much safer rider after he took the Motorcycle Safety Foundation course when he was 40 years old.

“We’re just another vehicle on the road,” he said. “We’re not more dangerous... “No matter where you’re at you have to be cautious.”"

a comprehensive study of the effectiveness of rider training completed by the independent firm SYSTAN, Inc. entitled California Motorcyclist Safety Program -- Program Effectiveness: Accident Evaluation has determined conclusively that formal training reduces accident involvement

Many people will not ride motorcycles because even if you take safety courses you are still vulnerable in an accident, even if the accident involves only yourself.

Lots of people won't ride bicycles because even if you take safety courses you are still vulnerable in an accident. However, at least with bicycles there is an option for a separate system for transportation. This makes the bicycle a more viable option to many people than a motorcycle.

It also can make for a more pleasant option than driving a car or motorcycle if the separate system is nice. The combination of a nice bike path and a little fresh air and exercise makes people feel great. It's worthy to pursue enhancements to the quality of life in my opinion. All you scoffers should consider that.

maybe there should be "segragated facilities" for these motorcycles? ;)

Motorcycles should be allowed on MUPs. That would solve everything.

You know motorcycles use vehicular cycling to the extreme... even matching speed of the other vehicles on the road. If motorcyclists are having problems with motorists while being VC, how in the world can bicyclists hope to fare well?

Well the vets have discovered the Mediterranean Sea!

I ride my motorcycle about the same way as I ride my bicycle. "Paranoia is complete awareness" to use someone elses sig line. I always expect the worst from drivers and I always try leave myself a way out of any possible scenario.

After a while it gets easy and less stressful.

Arizona is a lousy place to ride a motorcycle in anyway. Even the 89A through Prescott and Sedona have become so clogged that they don't even set up speed traps there anymore.
When the Earth needs an enema, Saharazona is where the tube is inserted.
http://www.calamarichris.com/images/sed03-ticket.jpg
-CCinC

A few days back I had a redneck yell "get off the road" for the first time on my motorcycle. He actually stuck his head out the window of his moving truck to do that.

to paraphrase one of A&S's esteemed safety nannies, it's the motorcyclists' fault for not riding better.

The huge age and gender disparity in accident rates strongly suggests that rider behavior is a big contribution.

Motorcyclists are much more likely than bicyclists to die in car accidents. A lot of that is probably because most bicyclists don't ride at highway speeds on the highway.

As a cyclist, both motor- and bi-, I can see that a lot of the problems are the same, and it basically comes down to one issue: "I didn't see them." Also, I've found that surviving in traffic is possible if one adopts a "They're all actively trying to kill me" attitude and devotes requisite attention and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to avoid being killed. I'm one of those moto nuts who believes in ATGATT (all the gear all the time), which includes moto-specific boots, gloves, armored hi-viz suit, and helmet (ear plugs and sunglasses). The hi-viz stuff helps, but there are still morons out there who pay less attention to someone who looks like they are wearing a radiation suit on two wheels, than they do anything with four or more wheels. I ride a motorcycle pretty aggressively, which might pi$$ off some cagers, but does get their attention, and I'd rather they see me and think "Tch, look at that maniac," than not see me and merge me into a tractor trailer.

In both cases, the solution isn't education. There isn't enough edumacatin' in the world that will get people to the point that they are not killing cyclists. Simple marketing--anything you have to explain to the consumer is a lost cause, just sub-in "educate" instead of explain, and "driver" instead of consumer.

If you want to kill a cyclist and get away with it, hit them and then when the cops show up or you are in front of the judge, say "I didn't see them." Becomes the fault of the victim for not being seen, and in many, many cases, this defense is all that's needed to get off with a slap on the wrist.

Hi visibility doesn't work, vehicular cycling doesn't work, driver education doesn't work. What will it take for motorists to start "seeing" cyclists? Heavy and just sentencing for accidents involving rights of way infractions which result in injury or death. When grandma goes to jail for running down a biker and it makes network news, people will start "seeing" cyclists. When not "seeing" a cyclist could result in lengthy jail time, drivers will quickly become more alert to us. The consequence of not seeing a car or truck is immediate and personally violent--only when the punishment for not seeing a cyclist matches this impact will drivers start paying attention.

... even if you take safety courses you are still vulnerable in an accident...

maybe we should all drive tanks? ;)

As a cyclist, both motor- and bi-, I can see that a lot of the problems are the same, and it basically comes down to one issue: "I didn't see them." Also, I've found that surviving in traffic is possible if one adopts a "They're all actively trying to kill me" attitude and devotes requisite attention and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to avoid being killed. I'm one of those moto nuts who believes in ATGATT (all the gear all the time), which includes moto-specific boots, gloves, armored hi-viz suit, and helmet (ear plugs and sunglasses). The hi-viz stuff helps, but there are still morons out there who pay less attention to someone who looks like they are wearing a radiation suit on two wheels, than they do anything with four or more wheels. I ride a motorcycle pretty aggressively, which might pi$$ off some cagers, but does get their attention, and I'd rather they see me and think "Tch, look at that maniac," than not see me and merge me into a tractor trailer.

In both cases, the solution isn't education. There isn't enough edumacatin' in the world that will get people to the point that they are not killing cyclists. Simple marketing--anything you have to explain to the consumer is a lost cause, just sub-in "educate" instead of explain, and "driver" instead of consumer.

If you want to kill a cyclist and get away with it, hit them and then when the cops show up or you are in front of the judge, say "I didn't see them." Becomes the fault of the victim for not being seen, and in many, many cases, this defense is all that's needed to get off with a slap on the wrist.

Hi visibility doesn't work, vehicular cycling doesn't work, driver education doesn't work. What will it take for motorists to start "seeing" cyclists? Heavy and just sentencing for accidents involving rights of way infractions which result in injury or death. When grandma goes to jail for running down a biker and it makes network news, people will start "seeing" cyclists. When not "seeing" a cyclist could result in lengthy jail time, drivers will quickly become more alert to us. The consequence of not seeing a car or truck is immediate and personally violent--only when the punishment for not seeing a cyclist matches this impact will drivers start paying attention.

Bingo!

This pretty much says it all. The whole "I didn't see 'em" issue made me come up with what I called "Casper mode." Anytime I'm on my bike I'm in Casper mode... I am only seen by the people that believe... otherwise I am invisible... period.

And your last sentence really drives home the problem.

driver education doesn't work.

Actually, studies have shown that rider and driver education are the most effective way to reduce the number of crashes. It's just that 'Mericans resist behavioral change.

I'm a motorcyclist for three decades, and a transportational cyclist for a few years more than that. This has always been a problem, and it always will. Culturally, it will not be an easy fix in the US where the mentality is "bigger is better" and cars rule.

Az

Two big changes for the worse have become regular occurrences here in Northern California. The first is a huge number of people insist they can drive and talk on the phone at the same time. Yet the photo red light tickets routinely show over half of the red light violations are people who are on the phone.

The other is the proliferation of "wild freeway moves". Like going from the fast lane, across 3 lanes to an exit at the last possible moment. At over 75 mph, no less. In a recent wreck from one of these moves that sent a Suburban rolling, the two adults were belted in and survived. The five children who weren't buckled up died.

What gets me about these scenarios are that they are so obviously dangerous, that nobody would miss it in a casual conversation. Yet they happen all the time. Apparently many don't think when behind the wheel. bk

I know lots of motorcyclists that have given up riding because of this.

... What will it take for motorists to start "seeing" cyclists? Heavy and just sentencing for accidents involving rights of way infractions which result in injury or death. When grandma goes to jail for running down a biker and it makes network news, people will start "seeing" cyclists. When not "seeing" a cyclist could result in lengthy jail time, drivers will quickly become more alert to us. The consequence of not seeing a car or truck is immediate and personally violent--only when the punishment for not seeing a cyclist matches this impact will drivers start paying attention.

Bingo! "I didn't see him/her" is a confession, not an excuse.

Two big changes for the worse have become regular occurrences here in Northern California. The first is a huge number of people insist they can drive and talk on the phone at the same time. ... The other is the proliferation of "wild freeway moves". Like going from the fast lane, across 3 lanes to an exit at the last possible moment.

What gets me about these scenarios are that they are so obviously dangerous, that nobody would miss it in a casual conversation. Yet they happen all the time. Apparently many don't think when behind the wheel. bk

I know lots of motorcyclists that have given up riding because of this.

This is my big question and concern -- have American motorists become increasingly aggressive, frustrated, distracted, and careless? To what extent has our highway carnage rate (very slowly) declined solely because of improved vehicle and restraint (e.g. airbag) design? Are the rates of bicycle and pedestrian injuries and deaths in which the motorist is at fault actually increasing over time?

This is my big question and concern -- have American motorists become increasingly aggressive, frustrated, distracted, and careless?

In a word, YES! Many people appear to treat the roads/highways as race tracks. If they can't get somewhere faster than everyone else, they've failed.

I feel safer on a motorcycle but the risk of an accident is higher.
I guess thats why nothing really bothers me too much on a Bike.
After years of MC'ing bicycles are kids stuff, so to speak.
The irony is, that the usual overreaching, angry authoritarian
figures will pull sportbikes over randomly for the 20 minute paper
check/harrasment stop based on nothing more than profiling and
anti-sportbike sentiments.......
Think how far this negatively preferencial treatment would go
toward taming drivers ?

Bingo! "I didn't see him/her" is a confession, not an excuse.

To a few on this forum, it is an indication that the cyclist wasn't riding correctly and caused his/her own demise.

Some cyclists believe that they are able to fundamentally control whether or not they are seen by drivers, just by adjusting position on the roadway. It is a horribly naive yet seductive notion.

Robert

To a few on this forum, it is an indication that the cyclist wasn't riding correctly and caused his/her own demise.

Some cyclists believe that they are able to fundamentally control whether or not they are seen by drivers, just by adjusting position on the roadway. It is a horribly naive yet seductive notion.

Robert
Please direct all follow up to this thread:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=354062

Al

Actually, studies have shown that rider and driver education are the most effective way to reduce the number of crashes. It's just that 'Mericans resist behavioral change.

I'm a motorcyclist for three decades, and a transportational cyclist for a few years more than that. This has always been a problem, and it always will. Culturally, it will not be an easy fix in the US where the mentality is "bigger is better" and cars rule.

Az

That's where I'm coming from: Laws imposing severe punishment for those who injure or kill for rights of ways infractions would have a lot more immediate an effect and be much easier (although still a very uphill battle) to implement than true education in the form of, say, tiered licensing or mandatory education.

Heck, if current laws on the books were merely enforced, it would be less of a problem...

I'm not surprised that motorcyclists feel this way; I feel unsafe in my car because of how many bad drivers there are.

To a few on this forum, it is an indication that the cyclist wasn't riding correctly and caused his/her own demise.

Some cyclists believe that they are able to fundamentally control whether or not they are seen by drivers, just by adjusting position on the roadway. It is a horribly naive yet seductive notion.

Robert
Robert, do you think any of these cyclists who "believe that they are able to fundamentally control whether or not they are seen by drivers, just by adjusting position on the roadway", participate on this forum?

*placing soggy soapbox for head's pompous, fallacy laden diatribe*

The huge age and gender disparity in accident rates strongly suggests that rider behavior is a big contribution.


Have you sufficiently analyzed those statistics to account for the fact that most motorcyclists on the road are also young and male? Otherwise the raw statistics are utterly meaningless.

Though undoubtedly riding like a moron places you at significantly increased risk, it's not clear that is the only risk factor.

I don't have statistics at hand, but by far the largest growing group of motorcyclists involved in accidents are those buying new bikes after being off them for a number of decades or never having ridden one before. Boomers, who used to have bikes or always lusted after a bike but put desire aside to raise families etc., now find themselves without the familial obligations and with the resources to act on dreams long buried, like buying that motorcycle they always wanted or used to have. Because we don't have tiered licensing, people with no experience or who haven't been on a bike for most of their lives, leave the showroom with the latest crotch rocket, or biggest cruiser, with little training to deal with the power to weight ratio of modern bikes, let alone basic controls and rules of the road. Many who get into motorcycles like this, as a lifestyle accessory, don't wear helmets either, or any other safety gear.

So ya, the young stuntaz doing wheelies on the highway are still wrecking in the same numbers as stupid kids always have, but there's also an influx of old pharts doing their fair share of upping the number of moto-accidents and fatalities.

So ya, the young stuntaz doing wheelies on the highway are still wrecking in the same numbers as stupid kids always have, but there's also an influx of old pharts doing their fair share of upping the number of moto-accidents and fatalities.

Quite possibly true, and I've no doubt that the inane 'Wild Hogs' movie will add yet more geriatrics on motorcycles. Though I would point out, it doesn't explain the peculiar hostility the experienced rider in question has found in Arizona.

"Born in South Africa, Mueller has traveled by motorcycle in a 142 different countries across the world, and he says Arizona is one of the most dangerous places he has ever ridden. He has lived in Arizona for nine years."

Not for nothing, but I see a huge difference in the riding styles of the older "Wild Hogs" type riders, such as my parents' Harley Club, and the young male riders here in Los Angeles. At least once a day I see sport bike riders zooming up to 60 on a residential street and pulling a wheelie. I don't know if that's illegal, but it certainly can't be safe and is bound to skew any statistics regarding deaths and injuries. I also had a run-in with one of these sport bike riders as he came into the oncoming lane to cut to the front of the line of left turning cars. He was so angry about "me" cutting him off. This reminds me of cyclists who run lights, ride on the wrong side of the road, and in the door zone and talk about how they got "hit." I'm not saying there aren't motorcyclists who do everything right and still get hit, just I think as in the cycling world there are a few idiots who court death and sometimes come up short and then end up skewing the numbers.

I think Mr. Underbridge's point is that the complaints/concerns are being made by motorcyclists who consider themselves responsible and experienced.

Sure the irresponsibility and inexperienced contributed to the most crashes, but it is those who want to and try to be and feel safe that most benefit from improved awareness and other environmental changes.

Same issue with bicyclists. The great majority of cycling fatalities could be eliminated thru education of cyclists and responsible bicycling. However those who are advocates for cycling tend to already consider themselves to be educated and responsible and feel that improvements in their environment, not to themselves, will have the most personal impact.

Al

I think Mr. Underbridge's point is that the complaints/concerns are being made by motorcyclists who consider themselves responsible and experienced.

Sure the irresponsibility and inexperienced contributed to the most crashes, but it is those who want to and try to be and feel safe that most benefit from improved awareness and other environmental changes.

Same issue with bicyclists. The great majority of cycling fatalities could be eliminated thru education of cyclists and responsible bicycling. However those who are advocates for cycling tend to already consider themselves to be educated and responsible and feel that improvements in their environment, not to themselves, will have the most personal impact.

Al

I agree with that, but I think that the converse is true too. Most drivers are educated, courteous, and responsible too. The bad apples are probably the most difficult to reach, educate, and reform. I believe the education efforts of motorcycle, bicycle, and motorist advocacy groups is great, but largely inneffective as the ones most in need of reeducation are impossible to reach. I agree with other posters that what is needed is more stringent enforcement of existing laws, such as the impoundment of over 100 street racers' cars here in Southern California. It's hard to drive like a jerk when you don't have a car to do it. :D

I agree with that, but I think that the converse is true too. Most drivers are educated, courteous, and responsible too. The bad apples are probably the most difficult to reach, educate, and reform. I believe the education efforts of motorcycle, bicycle, and motorist advocacy groups is great, but largely ineffective as the ones most in need of reeducation are impossible to reach.
Totally agree.

Al

There is a for-real bias against motorcyclists. I remember when I had a "real" motorcycle (not a scooter) and had this guy shake his finger in my face calling me a guy and all these other insults that were obviously not intended for a female. My boobs were nearly hanging out of my sweatshirt but he just assumed I was some young male in his 20s and deserving of his abuse (I was simply lost and had ended up in his private parking lot somehow.)

Here in Virginia, the number of motorcycle rider deaths increased to 116 this year from 69 last year. State Police attribute part of that toll to older riders. I expect most did not take any motorcycle safety training.

When I took motorcycle saftey training, the main point I remember was that motorcycles are invisible to car drivers. Defensive riding were the main skills taught (along with the riders invisibility). It's better to look like a Hells Angel than have lights, buzzers, and reflective tape. People are oblivious to lights, radiation hazmat suits, reflectors, and such.

A cell phone interference generator might be useful in some cases, but would probably cause some accidents. Maybe new standards need implementing, such as strobes and other lights, to remove the "I didn't see them" defense? Expecting everyone on the road to be an idiot has paid off for me, although I stopped riding a motorcycle for other reasons.

Bingo!

This pretty much says it all. The whole "I didn't see 'em" issue made me come up with what I called "Casper mode." Anytime I'm on my bike I'm in Casper mode... I am only seen by the people that believe... otherwise I am invisible... period.

And your last sentence really drives home the problem.

Amen, except that hi viz seems to have helped me more than it's helped you. My motorcycle's pretty lit up with the retroreflective stuff on it and my riding gear, and some (but not all) people do notice it. Still, I remember the first time someone looked right at me on my bicycle and pulled out right in front of me - just like on the motorcycle. Some things never change.

There is a for-real bias against motorcyclists. I remember when I had a "real" motorcycle (not a scooter) and had this guy shake his finger in my face calling me a guy and all these other insults that were obviously not intended for a female. My boobs were nearly hanging out of my sweatshirt but he just assumed I was some young male in his 20s and deserving of his abuse (I was simply lost and had ended up in his private parking lot somehow.)

LOL Don’t you know that motorcyclists and cyclists are never supposed to get lost? You are supposed to know the roads better then anyone else.

maybe we should all drive tanks? ;)

Well that is the idea. That is what an SUV really is as compared to a bike.

LOL Don’t you know that motorcyclists and cyclists are never supposed to get lost? You are supposed to know the roads better then anyone else.

I was looking for a shortcut. I guess there was no shortcut.