Classic & Vintage - I love 27"s...

...when on a bike intended for them (excuse the bad lighting):

http://www.jaysmarine.com/70_paramount_27s_1.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/70_paramount_27s_2.jpg

These beat-up Ukais are placeholders only for the rims that will ultimately be fitted to my '70 Paramount P-13 (yep, that's what Richard pulled up in the Providence Report).

I mounted these today to please my eyes for a change; in other words, to do away with the 700C rims that were mounted upon it when I purchased the bike.

That's not to say that I didn't like the Mavic Reflex rims that were on it; my gripe with them is that the 4mm of diameter lost on the 700C rims - even though a minute difference, theoretically - makes a heck of a difference, visually:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/70_paramount_2.jpg

http://www.jaysmarine.com/70_paramount_1.jpg

No matter how subtle the effect, it appears as if the frame is slightly over-sized for the wheelset under it, while the wheelbase and TT length appear artificially long (almost "lowriderish", not to mention fender clearances look worse then a 29'er running 559's. With the 27"s however, everything just "fits" - wheelbase length looks perfect, the frame size in relation to the wheels does not look "funky," and tire clearances look just right.

Just my little comments on my aversion to the 700C fad :)

Take care,

-Kurt

I know exactly what you mean. I tried one of the wheels from my Club Fuji (700x25) on my Miyata 310 (27x1 1/8) and it looked horrible, like Calista Flockhart wearing Kirstie Alley's dress.

On a larger frame, 700C with skinny tires sometimes look a little scrawny to me. I have no problems with the 27" size, it's just that I rarely find wheels in that size that are safely rideable. I do have a couple of decent sets, though.

I know exactly what you mean. I tried one of the wheels from my Club Fuji (700x25) on my Miyata 310 (27x1 1/8) and it looked horrible, like Calista Flockhart wearing Kirstie Alley's dress.

I think it looks better with the 700c's :D

On a larger frame, 700C with skinny tires sometimes look a little scrawny to me. I have no problems with the 27" size, it's just that I rarely find wheels in that size that are safely rideable. I do have a couple of decent sets, though.

Skinny tires aren't my gripe so much as that of the wheel diameter itself. There are points to be made about proper tire width, but I won't go off on that tangent now.

Curiously - what makes the reject 27"s in your piles "unsafe?"

-Kurt

I've got a set of Raleigh 27" if anybody wants them.

Skinny tires aren't my gripe so much as that of the wheel diameter itself. There are points to be made about proper tire width, but I won't go off on that tangent now.

Curiously - what makes the reject 27"s in your piles "unsafe?"

-Kurt

What I mean about the tire width is that it can also add to the height of the whole package, and I like taller wheels on larger frames.

My unsafe wheels are not things that couldn't be repaired, for the most part. Things like extremely loose spokes, rusty spokes, or just super cheap hubs, spokes, or rims. I have one decent set with the standard 27" Araya rims and Sunshine hubs that are like new. My good set has the same rims, but with a 40 spoke rear and 36 spoke front and some early '80s Suntour hubs with sealed cartridge bearing that are as smooth as butter. But they need to be trued properly which I've never done myself. I'm currently using the good set on my Univega touring bike.

yeah yeah, nice wheels, beautiful bike, 27's are sweet. what's under the car cover, under the tent? I'm guessing Oldsmobile.

I've got a set of Raleigh 27" if anybody wants them.

PM sent...... :)

OK, I gotta bite - virtually all of the "good" bikes I remember back in the day had "28" inch tubulars which is 700C in modern parlance. And most gaspipe specials had 27". Not univerally true of course. My Panasonic is a decent bike and has 27" wheels but it's a touring bike and 27" was common for that usage. I also started a thread a while back asking whether anybody knew of any frames made in separate sizes for 27" vs. 700C and nobody said they knew of any. I'm not a Schwinn guy but did Paramounts not come with tubulars? And if there was an option between, say 28" tubulars or 27" clinchers (I think there was), was there actually any difference in the frame or fork? Sorry but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing as a frame designed for 27" wheels.

My Bottecchia came with 28" tubulars and it now runs 700C clinchers and if anything they look too big (primarily because they're sized for a 200-lb middle-aged guy instead if a young 165-lb racer :D )

High quality 27" rims were offered alongside 700C. Some bikes did come spec-ed with 27".
Cannondales initially came with 27" for their touring and road racing bikes.

I run a set of 27" Ambrosio Durex Elite 19 rims with DT spokes and Campy Record hubs.

Sorry but I'm skeptical that there is such a thing as a frame designed for 27" wheels.
I believe that many of the '60s road Paramounts were designed for 27" wheels. Upgrading to tubulars was an option and not a problem since they were spec'd with Weinmann centerpulls which had lots of reach.

The Schwinn fillet brazed cromolly framed road bikes, i.e. Superior, Super Sport, and Sports Tourer, were definitely designed for 27" wheels. The height of the rear brake bridge and the clearance under the fork scream 27" and make using 700c wheels nearly impossible.

Your statement might be dead-on for the European road bikes. Some had enough space for 27" wheels and thus were shipped to the U.S. in order to satisfy the preference for that size in the '60s-'70s.

BTW, this could be a new sticky. Sources for high quality 27" tires. Especially the harder to find 27 X 1 and somewhat hard to find 27 1 1/8. As far as I can tell at this time, only Performance has the smaller size in their brand. The IRC Triathalons I like seem to be "out of stock" at every source I'm familiar with. I hope they will still be made.

Kurt, the blue bar tape from Loose Screws looks great!

Outside of looks

What I mean about the tire width is that it can also add to the height of the whole package, and I like taller wheels on larger frames.

My unsafe wheels are not things that couldn't be repaired, for the most part. Things like extremely loose spokes, rusty spokes, or just super cheap hubs, spokes, or rims. I have one decent set with the standard 27" Araya rims and Sunshine hubs that are like new. My good set has the same rims, but with a 40 spoke rear and 36 spoke front and some early '80s Suntour hubs with sealed cartridge bearing that are as smooth as butter. But they need to be trued properly which I've never done myself. I'm currently using the good set on my Univega touring bike.

Ah, yes; the larger tires can be used to artificially add to the diameter of the rim.

Any nice Mavic/Ambrosio/Rigida/etc hooked-bead 27" rims (36/36) in your pile? Need a pair for the Paramount.



yeah yeah, nice wheels, beautiful bike, 27's are sweet. what's under the car cover, under the tent? I'm guessing Oldsmobile.

Try this on for size:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/Main_TC79_home.jpg


OK, I gotta bite - virtually all of the "good" bikes I remember back in the day had "28" inch tubulars which is 700C in modern parlance. And most gaspipe specials had 27".

27"s were primarily for touring machines - by the '80s, anyway - but a number of quality machines in the '70s ran the size - the Paramount being one of them. One could order the P-13 (the model above) with 27" clinchers or 700C tubies as desired. I, somehow, doubt the fact that mine ever came with the 700C tubulars, considering the excess of clearance under the brake bridge and fork crown. P-15s were always 27"; track models were, obviously, 700C.

Not to mention that you could order whatever you wanted; if 27"s on a track frame were your style, it wouldn't be impossible to have a frame built to those specs.


BTW, this could be a new sticky. Sources for high quality 27" tires. Especially the harder to find 27 X 1 and somewhat hard to find 27 1 1/8. As far as I can tell at this time, only Performance has the smaller size in their brand. The IRC Triathalons I like seem to be "out of stock" at every source I'm familiar with. I hope they will still be made.

Kurt, the blue bar tape from Loose Screws looks great!

You know, if there was a steady source for the old Specialized Turbo clincher 27" tires, we probably wouldn't be looking for any other tires in those two sizes. The ones currently on the black anno rims you see on the Paramount are their 27X1 tire, and are probably the best riding clincher I've ever ridden on - reminds me of a silk sew-up.

Thanks. Those bars and levers are destined for the '78 Guerciotti, while I intend to mount proper old-logo Cinellis (with red Velox tape) on the Paramount. By any chance, would you happen to have any old-logo Cinellis? (P.S.: Still have to send you something for the drop bolt - PM me again with what you're looking for).

Take care,

-Kurt

Any nice Mavic/Ambrosio/Rigida/etc hooked-bead 27" rims (36/36) in your pile? Need a pair for the Paramount.

I'm afraid not. Many of the 27s I've come across have these same Arayas that I mentioned earlier, or something cheaper and crappier. The Arayas aren't bad, just nothing special.

I'm using Panaracer Paselas with Tourgaurd on my Univega and they seem to be pretty good, but as far as I know they only come in a 27 x 1 1/4. That being said, they look pretty skinny compared to the 700C x 32mm Paselas on my Nishiki.

I'm using Panaracer Paselas with Tourgaurd on my Univega and they seem to be pretty good, but as far as I know they only come in a 27 x 1 1/4. That being said, they look pretty skinny compared to the 700C x 32mm Paselas on my Nishiki.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/630.html

...reports that Michelin World Tour 27 x 1-1/4 tires are 33 mm wide. They are my next purchase this winter for the two bikes with 27's that I maintain.

Those Michelins are the fattest 27 X 1/14 tire I have ever seen, if anything can cause tire clearence issues, it's them. They allmost look like 26 X 1-3/8 tires. They do however, ride very nice.

...


You know, if there was a steady source for the old Specialized Turbo clincher 27" tires, we probably wouldn't be looking for any other tires in those two sizes. ...

Ack. Pfft. It was the Specialized turbo clincher S that compelled me to go to tubulars for a number of years.

My experience was horrible. Hard to install, hard to remove, prone to flats, an unrelenting, unforgiving ride, and it wore unforgivably quick (like 600 miles, at a time I was getting 3500 out of Specialized Touring II's and something like 2k out of the Wolbler Invulnerables that replaced the Turbo S).

After the third flat in 600 miles, I noted that it had a noticeable flat spot on the tread so I threw it straight up in the air. A tree grabbed it, and for the next 15 years that tire served as a warning to other Specialized Turbos to keep clear.

It killed the tree. Of that I am convinced. It would still be there otherwise.


But you're right about the look of the bike, I think.

Ack. Pfft. It was the Specialized turbo clincher S that compelled me to go to tubulars for a number of years.

I'll agree on the point that they wear quickly, but I rather like them. I'm sorry to see that our experiences are not alike.

Take care,

-Kurt

One could order the P-13 (the model above) with 27" clinchers or 700C tubies as desired. I, somehow, doubt the fact that mine ever came with the 700C tubulars, considering the excess of clearance under the brake bridge and fork crown. P-15s were always 27"; track models were, obviously, 700C.

Keep me straight here - a P-13 is the road racing model and a P-15 is the touring model right? So using the P-13 as an example, are you saying that if you ordered it with 27's or with 700's the frame/fork was actually different? Has anyone measured that? Now if the P-15 only came with 27's I'm more inclinded to believe it was designed for them, especially if it was a touring model.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/tires/630.html

...reports that Michelin World Tour 27 x 1-1/4 tires are 33 mm wide. They are my next purchase this winter for the two bikes with 27's that I maintain.

You know, I just realized that my Varsity has those (they were on it when I got it), and they are definitely wider than the Paselas. Strange that they use the same width measurement.

Keep me straight here - a P-13 is the road racing model and a P-15 is the touring model right? So using the P-13 as an example, are you saying that if you ordered it with 27's or with 700's the frame/fork was actually different? Has anyone measured that? Now if the P-15 only came with 27's I'm more inclinded to believe it was designed for them, especially if it was a touring model.

P-13: Road Racing Paramount. Frames could be anything from the genuine road racing model made for 700Cs (usually tubies) only, or a model made specifically for the larger 27" rims; essentially a P-15 with an NR rear derailer and double chainring, as opposed to the P-15's triple and long cage RD. Eyelets optional on all variants.

P-15: Touring Paramount - made specifically for 27"s, and outfitted with an NR double and long-cage RD (either Valentino or Shimano). Eyeleted dropouts.

P-10: Schwinn's new model number developed in 1973 for the 27"/double-chainring variants of the P-13 as explained before.

If you're still confused, I woudn't worry much about it. At times, I wonder if the factory knew what they were doing themselves.

-Kurt

I LOVE MY 27"S TOO. and my old racer needs some love so i wanted to deck out at least the front wheel (due to no dishing and the overall simplicity in comparison to the back wheel) with shnazzy gold spokes, but i cant find any of them anywhere at all. and i need to see if there is some secret society building super cutty spokes for a 27" wheel!
someone help me!

I wish you luck in your quest.

I just want to find red treaded or side walled 27" tires. Sadly, it's appears to be either gumwall or black.

Looks like this thread was bumped out of the woodwork. Well, it gives me an excuse to show off the Paramount's new Mavic Module 3 27's w/IRC Roadwinner Duro II 27x1-1/8 tires:

http://www.jaysmarine.com/70paramount_092608_3.jpg

-Kurt

Oh la la! It does look nice! Now put some pedals on it and ride that baby!

so it looks like you'd need a drop bolt to get a 700c on the front of that. I'm going with 700c on my bikes, just seems easier to deal with.

Oh la la! It does look nice! Now put some pedals on it and ride that baby!

I just found out that Rabid Koala has a pair.


so it looks like you'd need a drop bolt to get a 700c on the front of that.

Both Campagnolo calipers that were mounted on it when I got it had drop bolts on it. The brake slots were also filed down about 4mm.

-Kurt

Or use a Weinmann rear brake on the front like I did when I set my P-15 up as a Rando bike. I just joined RUSA.:thumb:

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/073.jpg

Fender, where did you source your Paramount decals? (Probably Waterford, but I'm curious to know if there are any other sources).

-Kurt

Fender, where did you source your Paramount decals? (Probably Waterford, but I'm curious to know if there are any other sources).

-Kurt

Kurt,

It was Waterford. I was one of the unfortunate Velo Graphics victims so Waterford was the only option at the time.

As an aside, this bike is running 700c wheels w/32mm tires, full fenders and there is clearance to spare. The rear is 9 speed Ultegra 11-32 and the the frame was not cold set to accept the new hub. I removed a spacer from the rear hub and it slips in with a very light speading of the rear trianlge with my fingers. The friction barcons & Le Tour RD are handling a 9 speed 11-32 rear with narry an issue. I have all of the original parts and can convert it back to original in a few hours if needed. I love the fleibility of older bikes!:love:

Looks like I'm going to end up being an unfortunate Waterford victim. For the price Rich asks for his stuff, you'd think he would tighten up about service promptness.

You know, I've always wondered whether my '61 Paramount was or was not designed for 700C's - I always thought 27"s were what it was spec'ed with, but I've been running 700C's on it with the stock brakes with hardly any issue - did not even have to put a 610 on the front.

Funny how the Paramount geometries changed now and then. There is an all-chrome '72 at one local shop at present that was made for 700C, and despite being the same frame size as my '70 (and yours, as a matter of fact), the stays and forks are a shorter fit.

-Kurt

wouldn't they build a custom paramount for very little extra? I knew some tourists back in the mid '70s that ran heavy tubulars, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a Paramount with relaxed geometry and 700c clearances that would accept fenders..

Fender,

Your P is great looking. It took me a few looks but I finally realized the front hub is a dynamo.

So, when are you riding that baby to NH? Just take a left on US 1 and head north!

My ~75 motobecane came stock with 27" rims, I switched to 700c because I didnt really know the difference but I gotta say I like the new rims better, could be my small frame though.

(anyone know good way to get a year on an old frame? Ive got original paint and components, it was exactly equiped as a few '75s I looked up but I am working under the assumption they stuck with the same groupset for their entry level touring bike [Mirage] for more than 1 year)

Here's a couple with 27"

Classic Schwinn lovelys!

wouldn't they build a custom paramount for very little extra? I knew some tourists back in the mid '70s that ran heavy tubulars, so it wouldn't surprise me to see a Paramount with relaxed geometry and 700c clearances that would accept fenders..

They would, though I've seen too many of both 700C and 27" variants for either to be a special order. For the record, my own '70 is a stock build, made for 27" wheels.

I've seen an all-chrome Paramount frameset with factory braze-ons for front and rear racks. That took the cake for "custom build" in my book.

-Kurt

Fender,

Your P is great looking. It took me a few looks but I finally realized the front hub is a dynamo.

So, when are you riding that baby to NH? Just take a left on US 1 and head north!

Thanks PB! I would love to take a trip north. Now with the 700c Wheels I can run my studded Nokian's and take on you snowfall!:thumb: The dynamo was purchased via that fellow who is close by, that you won't patronize.;)
It was funny when I purchased it from him how annoyed he was that I was having the wheel built locally and not by him!:roflmao2: I have had it for a couple of years now and it is a wonderful thing to have lights whenever needed. It is also nice to be able to run them during the day when in heavy traffic for added visibility like a motorcycle.

Or use a Weinmann rear brake on the front like I did when I set my P-15 up as a Rando bike. I just joined RUSA.:thumb:

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k292/bylar13/073.jpg

Which rides will you be doing next year?

Which rides will you be doing next year?

Not sure yet. I just got the handbook in the mail today.

Going with the Capitol Area, or Eastern PA group? I'm planning on three with DC group, since some of their rides actually make it up to some places I ride to from my driveway.