Road Bike Racing - Motivation for non-pros doping

For pro riders the reasons to juice are pretty obvious. Money, pressure and fame (to name a few).

For non-pros it also seems there are a lot of reasons for riders to juice (based on the rate of positives) but what I'd like to explore is the fundamental difference between Europe and the rest of the world as it relates to motivations for doping for these riders.

In most of the world, cycling is an elitist, white collar sport (as a generalization) that appeals to those who can afford it. Even after you are fully equipped, there are still considerable expenses that keep the sport focused on those who have enough disposable income to participate.

In Europe, it is a blue collar sport. For those who can't afford it there are clubs and institutions in place that help offset the cost of the equipment. Also, older riders are more likely to mentor younger riders and this means handing down perfectly good equipment. In Europe, traveling to races isn't nearly as difficult as you can usually find something close thereby greatly reducing financial burden number 2: traveling expenses.

These are fundamental economic differences that create very different motivational factors.

My point is this:

If you were an aspiring racer in Europe, and someone told you you could quit your job at the tire factory and make enough money to support yourself and your family by using this potion, I can understand the temptation. You don't need to be good enough to ride on a Pro Tour team, just good enough to get a Continental Pro contract.

The problem is, even if these riders are aware of the dangers, poverty is a great motivator. What you end up with is a string of kids who have nothing to loose but everything to gain, being fed into the machine until a champion is spit out the other side. How many other riders were simply chewed up by the doping machine and discarded?

To put in in context for those in NA, cross the pond. Now you are in an impoverished urban center in NA. Go down to a local BB court, open up your little black bag, and tell some kids that if they juice, they could make it big. It may kill them, but it may not. How many would jump at the chance? This may be the only time opportunity ever visits their door.

I'm not advocating doping so please skip that bit in your replies. I'm trying to understand what gets people, who are not already pros, to this place.

Another point I'd like to make is that dopers come and go but the machine keeps running. Catching guys and handing them suspensions does nothing to dismantle the mechanisms that support doping in the first place. For ever rider caught, how many more are being stuffed into the machine at the other end? Some will win, some will lose and some will die. And who is it that really benefits from this machine? What is the motivation for those who keep the machine churning?

Intelligent comments?

Intelligent comments?

I'm still waiting for one.

Your synopsis of US vs European cycling is way off.

People dope to cheat, to win.

For pro riders the reasons to juice are pretty obvious. Money, pressure and fame (to name a few).

For non-pros it also seems there are a lot of reasons for riders to juice (based on the rate of positives) but what I'd like to explore is the fundamental difference between Europe and the rest of the world as it relates to motivations for doping for these riders.

In most of the world, cycling is an elitist, white collar sport (as a generalization) that appeals to those who can afford it. Even after you are fully equipped, there are still considerable expenses that keep the sport focused on those who have enough disposable income to participate.

In Europe, it is a blue collar sport. For those who can't afford it there are clubs and institutions in place that help offset the cost of the equipment. Also, older riders are more likely to mentor younger riders and this means handing down perfectly good equipment. In Europe, traveling to races isn't nearly as difficult as you can usually find something close thereby greatly reducing financial burden number 2: traveling expenses.

These are fundamental economic differences that create very different motivational factors.

My point is this:

If you were an aspiring racer in Europe, and someone told you you could quit your job at the tire factory and make enough money to support yourself and your family by using this potion, I can understand the temptation. You don't need to be good enough to ride on a Pro Tour team, just good enough to get a Continental Pro contract.

The problem is, even if these riders are aware of the dangers, poverty is a great motivator. What you end up with is a string of kids who have nothing to loose but everything to gain, being fed into the machine until a champion is spit out the other side. How many other riders were simply chewed up by the doping machine and discarded?

To put in in context for those in NA, cross the pond. Now you are in an impoverished urban center in NA. Go down to a local BB court, open up your little black bag, and tell some kids that if they juice, they could make it big. It may kill them, but it may not. How many would jump at the chance? This may be the only time opportunity ever visits their door.

I'm not advocating doping so please skip that bit in your replies. I'm trying to understand what gets people, who are not already pros, to this place.

Another point I'd like to make is that dopers come and go but the machine keeps running. Catching guys and handing them suspensions does nothing to dismantle the mechanisms that support doping in the first place. For ever rider caught, how many more are being stuffed into the machine at the other end? Some will win, some will lose and some will die. And who is it that really benefits from this machine? What is the motivation for those who keep the machine churning?

Intelligent comments?

Why not?

You Wussy.

It takes about 1 race to recognize that even at the lowest levels of the sport, some people will do anything to win. It's a little frightening how much people are willing to risk for that T-shirt and a $50 LBS gift certificate. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if there are cat 4's and 5's hittin' the juice.

A non-pro would dope in an effort to become pro...

I just tell myself that I'm the reason my competitors would want to dope.

How's a little of that for arrogance?

Your synopsis of US vs European cycling is way off.

You certainly managed to take a complicated issue and dumb it down. Congrats. No fries for me, please.

As to my synopsis: In what way and what do you base it on?

Motivation is easy, winning. Some people are just competitive; the fact that it has any reward at all is unimportant. Heck, these people need to win at board games... and if it did come down to reward, the reward is more than people might think, money and attention. For some attention is priceless, and even winning a small amount of money is fun for everyone (think of slot machines).

Scientifically I think there is more pressure to dope at the beginning of your career as this mathematically provides more results. If a pro dopes he may get his 1% advantage to give him a winning edge - on top of optimal, intensive training. If a junior dopes he gets his 1% compounded over year’s -without drug controls.

From financial matters most have seen the dramatic effect of compound interest. If athlete 1 “supplements” and athlete 2 just trains, at the end of year the doper comes out only slightly ahead. However, the next year’s intervals are based on last year’s results so they will be done at a higher level. Personally, I know I have gone through breakthrough points where I know my previous training wasn’t training at all; I was training to train at this new level. <Insert F.L. quote about overtraining on drugs>. Young dopers could go through these stages faster. The young doper would then spend more of his optimal years training at extreme levels, allowing him to eek out a couple prestigious wins.

My interest in this subject was started by a discussion I had about caffeine usage recently. “Should you use caffeine during training, or just during competition”? I suggested both during training and competition, with a withdrawal/resensitizing period during race taper for major events.

I just tell myself that I'm the reason my competitors would want to dope.

How's a little of that for arrogance?

I wish I could say the same about myself......


But that doesn't drive me to dope.

I just tell myself that I'm the reason my competitors would want to dope.

How's a little of that for arrogance?

Arrogance will make you win more races than FTP.

Note: I am only talking about Nomad... you need more FTP to beat him.

I just tell myself that I'm the reason my competitors would want to dope.

How's a little of that for arrogance?

It won't get me to dope but it will drag my A** out of bed to get a good workout in.

I just tell myself that I'm the reason my competitors would want to dope.

How's a little of that for arrogance?

Semper Foo my little Road Nazi.

Fame?

We are talking about road bicycle racing..... right?

It takes about 1 race to recognize that even at the lowest levels of the sport, some people will do anything to win. It's a little frightening how much people are willing to risk for that T-shirt and a $50 LBS gift certificate. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if there are cat 4's and 5's hittin' the juice.
Winning has little to do with it, actually. People take shortcuts to get what they want in ALL FACETS of life.
People justify what constitutes an acceptable risk FOR THEMSELVES in ALL FACETS of life. Some people fudge on taxes and figure nobody will notice. Some people lie on resumes to get a better job. Some people lie to get a girl in bed. Some people exceed the speed limit and violate other traffic laws on a regular basis. Some people drive inebriated. Some people smoke. Some people take recreational drugs. Some people ride bikes on busy roads. Why are people shocked when these same people take drugs to win a hunk of tin or a set of tires?

For amateurs, doping isn't about winning, it's about avoidance.

All [EDIT: meant to say "Most"] endurance athletes are running from something. Rather than deal with their demons, they fill their life with cycling, or running, or going to the gym. They channel their frustration into hurting themselves on the bike.

But the strategy only works so long as you're continually getting faster. The moment you plateau, you have to take stock of why you're really cycling, which means you have to look back and acknowledge the demons.

Dopers have bigger demons and/or weaker coping skills, so they dope to push that plateau a little further off into the future.

wait, really?

All endurance athletes are running from something. Rather than deal with their demons, they fill their life with cycling, or running, or going to the gym. They channel their frustration into hurting themselves on the bike.


Uh huh.

Keep the day job while you're taking that Acme Psychology Degree Correspondence Course there Wiley.

http://images.art.com/images/-/Looney-Tunes---Wile-E-Coyote--C11754810.jpeg

All endurance athletes are running from something.

Everyone is running from something. Some people fill their lives with shopping, drinking, overeating, sex, work...pick your poison. I'm not sure that it's correct to say that endurance athletes have "special" demons, that the rest of the population doesn't.

In fact, I'd say that adults involved in endurance sports are probably more well adjusted than the populace as a whole. Exercise promotes good health, physical and mental.

In fact, I'd say that adults involved in endurance sports are probably more well adjusted than the populace as a whole. Exercise promotes good health, physical and mental.

I think you're selling the drunks and drug addicts who fill our highways and roads a little short. Show a little respect for less healthy addictions.

Keep the day job while you're taking that Acme Psychology Degree Correspondence Course there Wiley.

Denial rocks. So does avoidance. Most of us are pretty screwed up, but we cobble ourselves into halfway functional people.

And yes, there are far worse coping strategies than cycling.

Fame?

We are talking about road bicycle racing..... right?

Do you have any idea of the status even Continental riders have in Europe? You are a GOD. If you are a rider, even an unknown rider, kids will pester you for your card or autograph because someday you might be famous. It would be like having a Barry Bonds rookie card 10 years from now.

Think of a pro player in any major NA sport and you start to get the idea.

People, please read my original post and lets stop talking about weekend warriors. I'm trying to foster a discussion about the systematic doping that happens in the amateur ranks with riders who have an eye on turning pro. This' "some people will do anything/are just competitive/phsyco babble" is not even on topic. Think beyond your own small part of the world and look at the big picture.

Everyone is running from something. Some people fill their lives with shopping, drinking, overeating, sex, work...pick your poison. I'm not sure that it's correct to say that endurance athletes have "special" demons, that the rest of the population doesn't.

Agreed.


In fact, I'd say that adults involved in endurance sports are probably more well adjusted than the populace as a whole.

Mmm, not so sure about that one. I think many endurance athletes believe that, and that that's part of the strategy. "My life still sucks, but hey, I'm in great shape!" -- quite a non-sequitur, no? But at least that non-sequitur has better side-effects than ones like "My life still sucks, so let's drink until I do things I can't remember in the morning." But "healthy" and "a better coping strategy" are not the same thing.

People, please read my original post and lets stop talking about weekend warriors. I'm trying to foster a discussion about the systematic doping that happens in the amateur ranks with riders who have an eye on turning pro. This' "some people will do anything/are just competitive/phsyco babble" is not even on topic. Think beyond your own small part of the world and look at the big picture.

It's the 12,000 dollar dream here in the US. Hell, the free bike, hotel and race fees dream for a lot of guys. Being a pro doesn't pay s**t for most. They're doing it because they like to do it - and because someday, they might, might get a ProTour contract.

So why dope? To win, and to get ahead. Why do people cheat in school?

All endurance athletes are running from something.

D'oh! Meant to type "Most ..." I agree that there are some mentally healthy cyclists.

People, please read my original post ...

Welcome to the internet.

Haven't read the whole thread, or even the OP. Whatever, anyways..

When can EPO/Doping show up on drug tests. Could a non-pro use epo and other drugs to build up their base strength for a year that elevates them from a cat 4 to a cat 1/pro with minimal effort? Then take a year or whatever to keep that new performance level and lose the drug trail? That's my brainstorming as to why a nonpro would dope. Skip years of hard work in minimal time.

OK. Let me seed the pot a little.

As an example, there is an age divide for teams where you need to carry a certain number of riders over 28 and under 28 (I think it's 28, it might be 27, I'm so old I can never remember). So if you are 25 and haven't signed a pro contract yet the motivation is to have a good season, or two, so that you have the palmares to hopefully catch the eye of a pro team. If you are 28 and don't have the palmares, the odds of someone investing in you are VERY slim. Your dream is over.

Remember, you don't have to ride on a Pro Tour team to be a pro. The vast majority of pros are on Continental and Continental Pro teams. It is pretty uncommon for a pure amateur to suddenly be signed by a Pro Tour team. It would be like a bunch of guys playing slow pitch at the local ball yard and a scout suddenly walks up to one of them and drags a guy of to spring training. It does happen but that is not how most riders find their way to a pro contract.

Haven't read the whole thread, or even the OP. Whatever, anyways..

When can EPO/Doping show up on drug tests. Could a non-pro use EPO and other drugs to build up their base strength for a year that elevates them from a cat 4 to a cat 1/pro with minimal effort? Then take a year or whatever to keep that new performance level and lose the drug trail? That's my brainstorming as to why a nonpro would dope. Skip years of hard work in minimal time.

No. EPO and steroids are both short term (to pick on a few of the favs out there). Red blood cell turnover is high so if you stop fooling your body into producing more red blood cells, you will return to your normal level after a while. Also, there are tests that can detect long term EPO usage. I'm not entirely clear on the science on this one. Maybe someone else can chime in here.

Steroids are the same story. Endurance athletes mostly use them for recovery. The bulking and bloating that body builders experience doesn't really play out well for cyclists. So, as soon as you stop, the benefits fade. This is true even of athletes who use steroids for bulking. You loose some of what you have gained in terms of muscle mass.

Good questions, though. Even on topic.:D

Mr Dopolina, I think you're right about the differences between US and Euro racing but how do you know so much? Have you raced in Europe?

Mr Dopolina, I think you're right about the differences between US and Euro racing but how do you know so much? Have you raced in Europe?

No. Not as a pro. I did some racing as an amateur and got worked pretty good. When I was young I wasn't fast enough. When I was faster, I was too old. Plus, it was a lot harder for a NA rider to race in Europe in the late 80's than it is now. NA riders are much more accepted now.

Oh yeah, did I mention a lack of any real talent?:D

I have raced in NA and I have done Asia Tour races. I have been fortunate enough to know and train with several good pro riders. I also work in the bike industry so I have contact with other pros that I wouldn't have met otherwise (including a guy who rode for Telekom and has a really interesting perspective on doping).

I am a Certified cycling coach, I continue to race and am the GM of an Elite team at the moment (The step to a Continental team is in the future for this team but there are several reasons why this doesn't help us at the moment. But that is for another thread!).

Some of the riders we have had on composite teams in the past have held pro licenses and raced on both Continental and Continental pro teams in Europe (Including a rider described by Phil Legget as the Asian Jacky Durand - Koji Fukushima. That was the year he wore the Polka Dot Jersey at Langkawi).

Currently we have a rider who has done a few stints in Europe and rode for a Continental team (PZ Racing - now defunct) in Belgium, Germany and in Asia for Tour of Korea and Tour de Taiwan and another rider who rides for us but also rides for composite teams for races like Tours of South China Seas or, this year, Tour of Vietnam (essentially whatever other Asia Tour races we aren't going to but we can get him a ride for).

Basically I've been around for a while and know/knew a lot of good riders. Some of my knowledge is first hand and some of it is second hand from very credible sources.

That's the short version.

In a lot of ways it makes more sense to dope as a non-pro. You'll probably have greater gains, you probably wont get caught, if you do get caught, nothing serious happens and you are probably already making more than most pros.

If I was a middle-aged office worker that wanted to race, I'd be taking anything I could to make up for my lack of time and to prevent soreness.

Around here you can earn quite a bit of money as a top rider in a category (3s or 1-2s). It used to be that a good Cat 3 who could do Masters could make $1000/weekend racing - but that took a lot of aggressive racing over two days of racing. Doping would help handle that workload and also push you up the "ability" ladder a bit. You might think winning 20 or 25 times a year, getting second just as many times, etc, would get you upgraded to a 2 and you might be right. But all you have to do is enter a number of Cat 2 races, get dropped, claim your job isn't letting you train, and you'll be dumped back into the 3s. I think if you don't finish top 10 in your category in one year, you can downgrade. So they downgrade to 3s.

And do it again.

I've posted elsewhere how easy it seems to be to buy stuff. EPO, HGH, steroids, at some level they're all available over the internet. I get ads for prepackaged EPO - already in sryringes! It seems that using steroids/testosterone regularly will allow a racer to recover almost fully overnight, allowing him/her to race at 100% the next day. In a small community like the cycling world, you'll be racing against the same guys who raced yesterday - and if you're recovered and they're not, you'll have a better chance of doing well.

And who ever heard of a Cat 3 getting tested?

It would take maybe $2000-3000, definitely $4k would cover it, to set up a racer for a three or four cycles of EPO and test/HGH - that would cover most of the racing calender. And you might recoup that in a few weeks of racing. Even if you didn't, think of how much you spend on bike equipment. This year was big for me - and I spent less than $7000. Normally I'm in the $2k range. $7k - that's less than the price of some bikes. I told a friend of mine I like his bike but I couldn't justify spending $3k on a frameset (!?), even at a super discount or wholesale. If you're laying out $2k for wheels, what's $2k to really improve your performance? The wheels will help a little. The $2k in medicine - that would help a lot.

As a 2 or a 1, it might be a little trickier. Some races may be tested randomly - and last summer USA Cycling or WADA or the USADA or someone made it clear that they don't necessarily test at the biggest race of the calender - they may hit up smaller races too. So if you're doping at a 1 or a 2, you stick to the non-huge races. If the testers show up, you feign ignorance about testing - and everyone around you will believe you because who the heck ever gets tested? I have no idea what the procedure is, and I rarely listen to race announcements - I just line up and race. Unless they grabbed my arm and said "Come here, you have to pee in this cup", I'd never know I needed to give a sample.

Two Cat 1 or somewhat equal racers last year (or the year before) got a doping suspension reduced to a 6 month suspension. Both were never tested, both had been randomly called to the dope testing thing after the race. Both had dropped out of said race and I think even left to go home. Their argument was that they simply raced (poorly) and went home. Their 2 year suspensions were reduced to 6 months.

I think that assuming people dope because they want to be a pro is making a big step. Someone did a study at some Gold's Gyms and found that 38% of the people they spoke with (or did the questionaire or something) used something to enhance their workouts. These were regular guys just looking to be a bit more ripped or cut. Nothing pro about them.

There are some dominant racers, former Cat 1s and 2s, former winners of big national level stage races, who race 3s around here and they crush people at races. Why? I have no idea - but they are soooo strong it's unbelievable. I'm just flabergasted when they launch their 10th attack in 10 laps - and this one being the "real" one, the other ones just feelers. They can place or win in a 1/2/3 race so why do just 3s?

They can win, and it's easier for them to win.

If you combine that attitude with a person who's looking for shortcuts (or hedging the odds), you have a potential doper.

I should point out there are a lot of honorable racers out there too - they work hard to become a 2, remain pack fodder that occasionally gets a top 10, but they stay there. They don't downgrade to 3s and annihilate people all over again. I'm like that but I'm only a 3. I donate prize money through entry fees and try and place a few times a year at the same courses I know match my (non-)fitness perfectly.

cdr

'Mr. Dopolina'?

Around here you can earn quite a bit of money as a top rider in a category (3s or 1-2s). It used to be that a good Cat 3 who could do Masters could make $1000/weekend racing - but that took a lot of aggressive racing over two days of racing.

cdr

Wow - you must have a lot higher payout in races than we have over here in OR. I think there may be 1 or 2 weekends a year (maybe none) where you could make $1k over a couple of days of racing as a Cat3/Masters, let alone as a Cat2. I also don't know any ex Cat1 or Cat2s that now race as a Cat3 - wait, I take that back I think the winner of the Portland Twilight Crit Cat3 this year used to be a Cat2, but it is rare.

I think you are more on with the analogy to people at Gold's Gym using steroids just to look better or otherwise boost their ego. My guess is that most amatuers that dope are doing it to maintain a fragile ego, with just a few doing it to try to land a pro contract. That is just a guess, I have never met an amatuer bike racer that I knew was or is doping.

Do you have any idea of the status even Continental riders have in Europe? You are a GOD. If you are a rider, even an unknown rider, kids will pester you for your card or autograph because someday you might be famous.

Are there pro cycling cards in Europe similar to Topp's baseball cards here in the states? If so, anyone know where they can be purchased?

Do you have any idea of the status even Continental riders have in Europe? You are a GOD. If you are a rider, even an unknown rider, kids will pester you for your card or autograph because someday you might be famous. It would be like having a Barry Bonds rookie card 10 years from now.

I am always amazed when I read no-name Pro-Tour domestiques that have HUGE fan clubs, hundreds of members all very active.

And yes, there are far worse coping strategies than cycling.

I know, I tried all of them.

First, drugs only make a small change in your performance. They cannot make you into a pro.

Second, I agree with the above posts that chalk non-pro's doping up to arrogance, lack of understanding risks, etc.

But I would add one other thing: a lot of those people who act like the cat 3 race is the Tour have lost their perspective. They have begun to believe that they are the center of the universe and that they matter more than the next ten guys.

Wow - you must have a lot higher payout in races than we have over here in OR.

The spring training series I promote over 6 weeks gives out about $8000 in cash for 6 categories - about $1500/week average and $1500 for overall. We can't give to 5s so the money goes to the 4s, M40, W, Jr, 3-4s, and P-1-2-3s. This has been the case for the last few years, and I think we broke the $1000/week barrier maybe 5-7 years ago. This is for a training race series (!).

If you look at some of the results in the NY/CT area, you'll find the same individuals winning or placing very high in a couple Masters races as well as the 3s, all on the same day. Doing well in, say, 6 races in a weekend is a great way to make a lot of (tax free) money.

I agree on doping being related to ego. There are guys who come into cycling already looking unnaturally big - and although they may have been a model or chippendales dancer or something, they still looked artificially big. No need to really do that but they do it because they want to.

Re: Euro domestic pros - a good friend of mine rode essentially B squad teams in Europe - yet he could sit down at a cafe and random people would come up to him and talk to him and ask him about racing.

Re: cards - I've seen them handed out at shows and stuff but not "for sale". Usually the rider signs it and gives it to you. I think the Kodak boys had them, not positive.

cdr

First, drugs only make a small change in your performance. They cannot make you into a pro.

Second, I agree with the above posts that chalk non-pro's doping up to arrogance, lack of understanding risks, etc.

Agree 100% on the first point. A Cat 4 on drugs is a still Cat 4. At that level you stand to gain a lot more from training than you do from drugs.

Disagree 100% on the second. Despite perception, it *IS* entirely possible (and often true), that some people have investigated the risks quite thoroughly and decided that, for them, its worth it. My guess is like many of us YOU have decided that cycling in traffic is a risk you're willing to take, despite knowing that most drivers think we are idiots for doing so.

The number of cyclists who have died from collisions with motor vehicles far outweigh those who have died from using PEDs.

First, drugs only make a small change in your performance. They cannot make you into a pro.

Second, I agree with the above posts that chalk non-pro's doping up to arrogance, lack of understanding risks, etc.

But I would add one other thing: a lot of those people who act like the cat 3 race is the Tour have lost their perspective. They have begun to believe that they are the center of the universe and that they matter more than the next ten guys.

I'm not? I don't?

My guess is like many of us YOU have decided that cycling in traffic is a risk you're willing to take, despite knowing that most drivers think we are idiots for doing so.

The number of cyclists who have died from collisions with motor vehicles far outweigh those who have died from using PEDs.

Good point, I never thought of that. A long time ago I decided riding in traffic is a "controlled" risk and enjoy doing it as much as possible. In fact, I used to take the train from CT into NYC so I could ride for a couple hours in Manhattan at night.

Makes me wonder why I never bothered doping then :)

clean but crazy?
cdr

I'm not? I don't?

ri_us mentioned guys who act like a Cat 3 race is the Tour have lost thier perspective. Those that act like the Nyack ride is the Tour are right on track. So no worries pcad.

Disagree 100% on the second. Despite perception, it *IS* entirely possible (and often true), that some people have investigated the risks quite thoroughly and decided that, for them, its worth it.

Here’s one rationalization that I can understand, even if I don’t share it: consuming vitamins, protein and carbs in appropriate ratios post-workout and ibuprofen to reduce swelling are all performance enhancers and all are legal. Hell, eating food is a performance enhancer. For some people it’s probably a short step to believing that the only difference between “nutrition” and “PED” is that some nanny figure is telling them that PEDs are bad for you. I can easily see why aspiring pro would believe that this is how it’s done in the big leagues and that the “rules” are for amateurs.

Think about it – people on the pro tour keep getting into trouble because substances that are in prescription or even OTC medications are on the banned list. This muddies the moral calculation quite a lot, doesn’t it? It would be easy to believe that under proper medical guidance, there's no real reason not to use the PEDs. You could even say that that authorities are increasing the risks by driving the practice underground (abortion clinics, anyone?) By the same token, they can rationalize the risks by believing that people who die from using PEDs just weren’t doing it right and that it won’t happen to them.

Disagree 100% on the second. Despite perception, it *IS* entirely possible (and often true), that some people have investigated the risks quite thoroughly and decided that, for them, its worth it. My guess is like many of us YOU have decided that cycling in traffic is a risk you're willing to take, despite knowing that most drivers think we are idiots for doing so.

This cues a thread started in this sub-forum not too long ago about racing, doping, coaching and a link or two to another website's forum...

ri_us mentioned guys who act like a Cat 3 race is the Tour have lost thier perspective. Those that act like the Nyack ride is the Tour are right on track. So no worries pcad.

Plus no dope testing @ the Nyack Ride either. Dope testing is not necessary, we are all dopes on the Nyack Ride.

Disagree 100% on the second. Despite perception, it *IS* entirely possible (and often true), that some people have investigated the risks quite thoroughly and decided that, for them, its worth it. My guess is like many of us YOU have decided that cycling in traffic is a risk you're willing to take, despite knowing that most drivers think we are idiots for doing so.

Everyone here knows about your plans to dope. Why don't we drop the pretenses and talk specifically about how you feel rather then some hypothetical rider who has investigated the risks and decided it's worth it.

Why do you want to dope?
From what I gather you're pretty far past your prime so becoming a pro is clearly out. Being competitive in the As at home? A medal at masters nationals?

Why do you want these things enough to dope rather then be satisfied with say being a competitive B or a top ten at masters nationals?

Does the fact that you cheat at a level where plenty of people aren't really not make such success meaningless too you?

Do you not feel like a pathetic **** for having to cheat for such insignificant wins?

Everyone here knows about your plans to dope. Why don't we drop the pretenses and talk specifically about how you feel rather then some hypothetical rider who has investigated the risks and decided it's worth it.

Why do you want to dope?
From what I gather you're pretty far past your prime so becoming a pro is clearly out. Being competitive in the As at home? A medal at masters nationals?

Why do you want these things enough to dope rather then be satisfied with say being a competitive B or a top ten at masters nationals?

Does the fact that you cheat at a level where plenty of people aren't really not make such success meaningless too you?

Do you not feel like a pathetic **** for having to cheat for such insignificant wins?
Do you not feel like a pathetic **** for not being able to read? All your questions are answered in the post you are so pathetically paraphrasing, so let's just put it here for everyone to see. BTW, if I was interested in hiding don't you think I'd at least have picked a different user name? Actually, the astute ones here may have noticed that I did change my name here months ago to match that one.

My thoughts on the matter:


Originally posted by Dubbayoo
I dunno. My perspective on things is quite bit different than most guys here and will probably come off as condescending. I don't have a problem with drugs, but I do have a problem with cheating. Way way back when I competed in bodybuilding steroids weren't against the federation rules and it wasn't a felony just to possess them like it is now. Even though I won my first show completely drug-free you knew most guys were on something so it really was a level playing field. If you didn't want to play that game there was and still are natural contests.

I only raced a few times back in the mid 90's and don't have much interest in doing it now. For me training isn't a means to an end. It IS the end. I love being too sore to walk after leg day or a good sprint workout. I don't need to race to enjoy the effort I put in. Drugs are against the rules in cycling and for me if you're gonna play then play by the rules. I don't really have a problem with guys doing HRT and placing 1,342nd at Ironman, but if you're in a race with a shot at winning I say do the right thing. I like to think if I ever took up racing I'll do things the right way. I'm too old to make any money at it and I don't have the physiology to be good at anything longer than a keirin anyway.

Anyway, I like reading the forum and I'm not here to bust any balls or judge anyone else. I've seen the issue from both sides.

actually I was refering to you posting on cuttingedgemuscle where in response to someone asking about his planned business offering coaching with doping services you replied.


I think you will need a fee level in between. Somebody serious enough to need daily contact with a coach likely has a
local one. A local coach probably wouldn't consult re: PEDS so the athlete would be looking at two coaching fees. Not to mention the value is lessened if someone doesn't have a power meter so you may want a rate that doesn't include that.

If I were racing, which I won't be til 2009, I'd interested in the consultant rate but not at one email per week. Suppose your response prompts more questions. Do I have to wait til next week? Perhaps one 'thread topic' per week.

So you clearly want a PED consultant for when you start racing again in '09.

Clearly things have changed since the quote you chose Now that we've established you are once again interested in racing and have little aversion to cheating by doping can we get back to the topic of this thread "what is your motivation" directly and without all someone might and other qualifiers?

actually I was refering to you posting on cuttingedgemuscle where in response to someone asking about his planned business offering coaching with doping services you replied.



So you clearly want a PED consultant for when you start racing again in '09.

Clearly things have changed since the quote you chose Now that we've established you are once again interested in racing and have little aversion to cheating by doping can we get back to the topic of this thread "what is your motivation" directly and without all someone might and other qualifiers?
Nope, things have not changed at all. He asked a hypothetical and I answered with one.

I guess you were too stupid to notice that the post you quoted is dated BEFORE the one that I posted.