Electric Bikes - solar electric bike combos?

yo, I was reading on www.ebikehub.com today (electric bike website) and some guy was asking if there are any kits available yet that combine solar to charge the e-bike batteries.

Anyone?

For a lot of situations, the most practical way would be to put solar panels on your house. Assuming your house has electricity from the electric grid, this is good for the power company and for you. The power company usually has to pay you for power if you produce more than you use during the day, but daytime=peak usage hours so they want power sources that work best in the day. If you use power at night to charge your battery, you're essentially using power that would be wasted because most power plants can't shut down/restart in a day.

It is hard to save money by buying solar panels instead of buying electricity from the power company, because electricity from the utility co. is cheap.

For off-the-grid bicycle touring, the bulk and weight of solar panels plus motor would make any easy-to-make system slow you down more than the motor could speed you up. However, if you're willing to invest lots of money you might be able to make a 2 wheel "solar car (http://www.wsc.org.au/)"-- the racing solar cars cost a fortune to make but they can easily power themselves with sunlight they get for free.

Putting solar onto an e-bike that gets locked up in public isn't practical, because solar panels are high-risk items and easy to nab off your bicycle. Even those silly little solar LED headlamps on bikes get stolen fast, they're only worth about $20 but solar panels are a big "steal me" flag. Kids also love to vandalize/break them for jollies.

In order to power a motor, you also need quite a bit of surface area on the solar panel to generate enough juice, more than can be conveniently fit on a bike. As mentioned, you can use stationary panels on your house which can then also power other household items during the day, and they're not nearly as high risk. *However*, as i've always tried to make a point: it does no good for you or the environment if you're already sourcing your electricity from a clean/green supplier. There are power companies out there that produce their juice using solar/wind, and using them can be another excellent, simple solution.

Solar panels aren't environmentally friendly unless you use them, a lot. The cost in energy and materials to build them initially takes a considerable amount of time to regain from the use of them, and simply having them as a neat thing is hardly a "green" notion.

They have practical portable applications, such as recharging in remote locations or on the move, which is why i'm considering a panel for the project next year. That system will be designed to work with 3 electronic devices I carry (and compatibility with more), and hopefully could be linked into trickle charging batteries when not in use, pretty much allowing the panel to have constant usage when applicable.

I would think that having a stationary solar panel at your house and using it for a wide myriad of applications would make much more sense economically, environmentally, and from a security standpoint than packing one with you unless you had need for it for some reason.

For off-the-grid bicycle touring, the bulk and weight of solar panels plus motor would make any easy-to-make system slow you down more than the motor could speed you up. However, if you're willing to invest lots of money you might be able to make a 2 wheel "solar car (http://www.wsc.org.au/)"-- the racing solar cars cost a fortune to make but they can easily power themselves with sunlight they get for free.

Debatable... The weight and bulk of foldable CIGS cells are vastly lower than Si. The time is right for solar powered (or assisted) bicycles.
However, the cost per kW is vastly lower for juice from the CoOp and will be for some unknown time, but that does NOT preclude delivery of e-bikes with the capability of solar integrated into the design of the bike. Yes, solar is still very expensive, but that does NOT preclude delivery of e-bikes with the capability of solar integrated into the design of the bike. The technology is available today for solar assisted bicycles. If $500 is too much for 50w foldable CIGS arrays, then is $300 too much for Li batteries or a blasted headlight? Most will say, yes, it's too expensive, but not everyone will. Yes, solar is out of reach for many, yet, but that does NOT preclude delivery of e-bikes with the capability of solar integrated into the design of the bike. E-bike manufacturers need to think of adding top-of-the-line solar assisted designs NOW.

P.S I agree with cerewa at this point in time on the economics of solar. However, I STRONGLY disagree with the notion that solar should remain immobilized simply on the basis of economics. Solar (CIGS) is currently available at $10/w which is astronomically higher than a utility - naturally. Research into various solar methodologies is currently at a furious pace and realistic projections put efficiencies of some of these methodologies upward to 40%. Practically, it'll take awhile before these methodologies are commonly available technology, but not nearly as long as Si has remained dominant. These newer, high-efficiency technologies should be available within a few (3) years in some cases. Personally, I like the flexibility of accumulating my own sources of power - even IF the cost is quite high relative to dependence on a utility.

Well, Velectris has solar panels & charge controllers intended to work with various flavours of lithium batteries. http://www.velectris.com/

On their (french) forums they're discussing new foldable panels, lighter. The 48v one weighs ~1.5Kg and is good for about an amp per hour. At 800-900 euros it kinda makes you think twice.


I know of at least one dude touring around France on a recumbent (thought it was a trike?) with such a kit, his website's here: http://lepetitecolo.free.fr/

And here's some pics:

http://lepetitecolo.free.fr/images/Photos/jeremy-grignols-1.jpg



http://lepetitecolo.free.fr/images/Photos/jeremy-grignols-3.jpg



Otherwise hitting google reveals things I'd rather not be seen riding:
http://davidbly.com/index.php/archive/2004/09/

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x25/coutujean/d378029f.jpg


http://www.therapyproducts.com/products_sunnybike.html

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x25/coutujean/1c547602.gif


www.fullspectrumsolar.com/vehicles.html (http://www.fullspectrumsolar.com/vehicles.html)

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x25/coutujean/5ab2ec3e.jpg


Now, somehow I don't like the thought of paying a premium for a bike that's heavier then it could be, sticks out like a sore thumb, has to be left exposed to the elements with the batteries on it, catches the wind like a sail. I mean getting a slightly larger battery seems like such a preferable idea. But hey, if you want a bike with solar panels on it more power to ya!

For me, besides the price tag, the big deterrant from even thinking about solar on a bike is the likelihood of theft.
With all of this discussion I am wondering if people have considered the "other" solar energy, wind? No, I am not talking about mounting a windmill on your bike but putting one on top of your house, if you have time and enough wind. Ten years ago when I checked wind-electricity was substantially cheaper than photovoltaic cells. In the right areas wind is also more steadily available than the sun, all year round, whereas the amount of sun available changes considerably throughout the seasons.

Now, somehow I don't like the thought of paying a premium for a bike that's heavier then it could be, sticks out like a sore thumb, has to be left exposed to the elements with the batteries on it, catches the wind like a sail. I mean getting a slightly larger battery seems like such a preferable idea. But hey, if you want a bike with solar panels on it more power to ya!

Well,

From the majority of your examples, you'd think solar applications MUST depend on Si panels. You're still living in the '90s... ;)

Aside from the weight and cost, CIGS not only has all of those weaknesses still, but is actually less efficient than silicon based panels, relative to surface area. I understand that you like them, but they still don't solve the primary concerns of theft or vulnerability, and actually need *more* surface area in order to achieve the same power output, which would then become an even bigger circus act of trying to pack enough panel on to make it work effectively.

I'm going to stick to my guns here: unless you have an absolute need for remote, grid free recharging for some reason, it makes much more sense to either run from a green grid source like a solar/wind company, or to purchase your own array and leave it at home where it'll be safe, not weigh you down, and will be able to benefit more than your bike, making it worth all that much more.

I can think of many reasons *not* to bring along your solar panels with you, and few reasons to do so.

Aside from the weight and cost, CIGS not only has all of those weaknesses still, but is actually less efficient than silicon based panels, relative to surface area. I understand that you like them, but they still don't solve the primary concerns of theft or vulnerability, and actually need *more* surface area in order to achieve the same power output, which would then become an even bigger circus act of trying to pack enough panel on to make it work effectively.

I'm going to stick to my guns here: unless you have an absolute need for remote, grid free recharging for some reason, it makes much more sense to either run from a green grid source like a solar/wind company, or to purchase your own array and leave it at home where it'll be safe, not weigh you down, and will be able to benefit more than your bike, making it worth all that much more.

I can think of many reasons *not* to bring along your solar panels with you, and few reasons to do so.

Partly right, partly wrong. Well, "aside from weight and cost" over nothing, I presume, but two major reasons for using CIGS versus Si are lower weight and bulk, yes, bulk. ;). The current, high cost of CIGS is trending lower rapidly, but the weight and bulk advantage over Si is huge. First, who CARES if CIGS arrays are currently slightly less efficient than Si, because CIGS arrays are primarily delivered as FLEXIBLE panels which allow for great adaptability and portability, e.g. using velcro, etc. ;) As long as the CIGS panels produce the power required to recharge storage systems for mobile use rather than wasting time at home recharging cell after cell, solar's use is viable and will become more and more dominant. Furthermore, I'm sticking to my guns here that solar applications , e.g. recharging power systems of ALL types, should be designed into bikes and scooters NOW as the wave of portable, mobile applications for solar is just beginning. :)

Partly right, partly wrong. Well, "aside from weight and cost" over nothing, I presume, but two major reasons for using CIGS versus Si are lower weight and bulk, yes, bulk. ;). The current, high cost of CIGS is trending lower rapidly, but the weight and bulk advantage over Si is huge. First, who CARES if CIGS arrays are currently slightly less efficient than Si, because CIGS arrays are primarily delivered as FLEXIBLE panels which allow for great adaptability and portability, e.g. using velcro, etc. ;) As long as the CIGS panels produce the power required to recharge storage systems for mobile use rather than wasting time at home recharging cell after cell, solar's use is viable and will become more and more dominant. Furthermore, I'm sticking to my guns here that solar applications , e.g. recharging power systems of ALL types, should be designed into bikes and scooters NOW as the wave of portable, mobile applications for solar is just beginning. :)

You sounds like a CIGS salesman :D
In the end, as i've said trading one bulk for another still solves none of the problems associated with trying to bring a mass of solar panels with you for practical applications. I'm not trying to make a comparative discussion between the two panels: this is fact. Those big panels in JeanCoutu's pictures? They'd need to be even bigger with CIGS, even if they weighed less and were thinner. You can't just wrap round bicycle tubing in panels and expect that the sun is going to strike it in a 360 degree pattern, in the end you would likely have to have both the massive flat panels *and* on bicycle micropanels to make the difference. Surface area won't be escaped.

I just have to reinforce this question: without a *need* to charge while out away from reliable grid, what reason would there be to build a vehicle with the associated drawbacks: massive additional surface area, potentially high environmental waste, theft/vandalism magnet, reduced performance due to wind profile - really, I don't see the point. It completely derives the vehicle of any practical value. Panels are an environmental loss unless used to their fullest, this would be one such example of loss and impracticality, when the panel could stay at home:

Dividing itself among tasks in order to provide the most benefit
Safest from harm by thieves or vandals
Slowing noone down

As stated, there are lots of reasons *not* to bring a panel with you. Aside from the *one* stated reason of portable recharging which is greatly negated by its downsides, what reasons are there to build a vehicle like this?

You sounds like a CIGS salesman :D
They'd need to be even bigger with CIGS, even if they weighed less and were thinner. You can't just wrap round bicycle tubing in panels and expect that the sun is going to strike it in a 360 degree pattern, in the end you would likely have to have both the massive flat panels *and* on bicycle micropanels to make the difference. Surface area won't be escaped. I just have to reinforce this question: without a *need* to charge while out away from reliable grid, what reason would there be to build a vehicle with the associated drawbacks: massive additional surface area, potentially high environmental waste, theft/vandalism magnet, reduced performance due to wind profile - really, I don't see the point. It completely derives the vehicle of any practical value. Panels are an environmental loss unless used to their fullest, this would be one such example of loss and impracticality, when the panel could stay at home:


No, the CIGS panels do NOT have to be bigger than Si to be useful on a bicycle. For the same amount of POWER, yes, the CIGS panels do NEED a bit more surface area than Si currently (not nearly as much as you're indicating and this situation is changing fast) but I, personally, wouldn't NEED to power the bike totally from solar. ;) Once again, the FLEXIBILITY of the panels allows for great creativity in applications which you conveniently overlook. These CIGS panels could actually be adapted to a bike to INCREASE aerodynamics, the panels could be easily and rapidly removed if necessary, reattached and portably carried on the body for a light show akin to the electric horseman, and the possibility of theft marginalized with various security measures. NONE of your concerns are impossible to counteract with creative thinking and some bucks... Uh, oh .... ;) Lastly, CIGS cells are much more environmentally friendly than other solar options. Furthermore, as long as you're an American and were smart enough to sell the house for a fortune a couple of years ago, you should be in good shape to buy a few CIGS arrays and help the economy. :)

Seriously, you're really overstating the case against mobile applications of solar using CIGS arrays. When I read your objections, I laugh (not at you, personally), but at the stereotypes that most people have in their minds from 10 to 20 years ago when silicon arrays were just becoming popular. Time does march forward and the time is ripe for mobile applications of solar on bicycles. BTW, I currently have no financial affiliation with manufacturers of CIGS arrays, but I'm seriously considering purchasing stock in a few companies. ;)

No, the CIGS panels do NOT have to be bigger than Si to be useful on a bicycle. For the same amount of POWER, yes, the CIGS panels do NEED a bit more surface area than Si currently (not nearly as much as you're indicating and this situation is changing fast) but I, personally, wouldn't NEED to power the bike totally from solar. ;) Once again, the FLEXIBILITY of the panels allows for great creativity in applications which you conveniently overlook. These CIGS panels could actually be adapted to a bike to INCREASE aerodynamics, the panels could be easily and rapidly removed if necessary, and the possibility of theft marginalized with various security measures. NONE of your concerns are impossible to counteract with creative thinking and some bucks... Uh, oh .... ;) Lastly, CIGS cells are much more environmentally friendly than other solar options. Furthermore, as long as you're an American and were smart enough to sell the house for a fortune a couple of years ago, you should be in good shape to buy a few CIGS arrays and help the economy. :)

Seriously, you're really overstating the case against mobile applications of solar using CIGS arrays. When I read your objections, I laugh (not at you, personally), but at the stereotypes that most people have in their minds from 10 to 20 years ago when silicon arrays were just becoming popular. Time does march forward and the time is ripe for mobile applications of solar on bicycles. BTW, I currently have no financial affiliation with manufacturers of CIGS arrays, but I'm seriously considering purchasing stock in a few companies. ;)

I clearly stated that they didn't have to be bigger, they simply needed to have more surface area. I'm making no attempt to do any sort of contrast between the two panels styles, rather to try and make my point that CIGS is not much better off than Silicon, and solves only cost and weight. As to wind resistance, its once again a yes/no answer. They can and are often applied in a more aerodynamic method, as placing them directly facing the direction of wind flow would be silly. That does not by any means indicate that having a moderately aerodynamic panel is better than no panel, as it is not, not unless you're moving at high speeds and need to use the panel as some sort of bizarre aileron. Unless you're say, building a recumbent bicycle and using the panel as a fairing, there would not be an aerodynamic benefit.

Secondly, until the point where the harnessed output of the solar panel offsets both its resource cost and begins to have gains over what using grid energy would cost the environment (which would not happen, using renewable energy suppliers) the panel is still an environmental burden instead of a gain. The chances of the panel lasting long enough to fulfill this task are extremely reduced when used in a risky application with a single purpose focus.

Thirdly, no lock in the world stops a good thief, and locks have no effect against kids who like to break the shiny panels. Teenagers love this stuff, trust me.

Lastly, i'm not an American, and Albertan growth has caused my house value to roughly triple in value over the last decade. Selling it would've been a poor move on my behalf :) not to mention that we rather enjoy having privately owned property to do our whatever-we-please.

I'm hardly basing my assumptions on 20 years ago, as i'm only 21 that would be difficult. I'm basing them on real world knowledge and the basic time and time again proven principle: KISS.

You've still declined to answer me as to *why* a solar bike like this has advantage over a system based on harnessing grid/renewable grid/home based solar. If you have no need for it, I don't think it does. At all.

I clearly stated that they didn't have to be bigger, they simply needed to have more surface area.


...Slightly more surface area, for a given amount of POWER... which ONCE again can be overcome by the flexible nature of the panels IF necessary...




I'm making no attempt to do any sort of contrast between the two panels styles, rather to try and make my point that CIGS is not much better off than Silicon, and solves only cost and weight. Only? ...Actually, CIGS is VASTLY much better off than Si for mobile applications ...



That does not by any means indicate that having a moderately aerodynamic panel is better than no panel, as it is not, not unless you're moving at high speeds and need to use the panel as some sort of bizarre aileron.
Of course, it is better having a moderately aerodynamic panel than not...especially when the e-bike is under power and at speed.




Thirdly, no lock in the world stops a good thief, and locks have no effect against kids who like to break the shiny panels. Teenagers love this stuff, trust me.
So, you're saying that adding solar arrays to a bike is a magnet for theft while having a nice bike, expensive headlight, nice seat, fine tires, is not? Shiny, like Si? j/k;)
Regardless, I AM saying that the flexible and portable nature of these arrays make it entirely possible to REMOVE the blasted things in a hurry IF necessary... so there goes the theft concern down the drain essentially. Other options to secure the cells exist IF you're that concerned that the CIGS arrays might be stolen and the bike left intact which I'd highly, highly doubt.


Lastly, i'm not an American, and Albertan growth has caused my house value to roughly triple in value over the last decade. Selling it would've been a poor move on my behalf :) not to mention that we rather enjoy having privately owned property to do our whatever-we-please. Good for you. ;)



I'm hardly basing my assumptions on 20 years ago, as i'm only 21 that would be difficult. I'm basing them on real world knowledge and the basic time and time again proven principle: KISS.
Who CARES how OLD you are? You do have access to the media, yes? If you have access to the media, then you have access to indoctrinated stereotypes. ;)



You've still declined to answer me as to *why* a solar bike like this has advantage over a system based on harnessing grid/renewable grid/home based solar. If you have no need for it, I don't think it does. At all.But, I have. Even YOU have suggested some very good reasons. Maybe, just maybe, you live in a mobile environment without constant access to the grid, i.e. without a fixed home. Like most people, our source of power revolves around a fixed domicile. Some people live out of their cars. Granted, living a nomadic life is NOT normal currently, but very well may be in times of crises. Notice, I intentionally did NOT use the word, homeless, whatever that means as ANOTHER indoctrinated stereotype. BTW, I'm not homeless. Maybe, just maybe, you're tired of the constant and essentially needless task of manually recharging batteries, etc. (*) But you likely know these benefits of mobile solar applications already ;)

* Primarily daytime usage

Double post ....

...Slightly more surface area, for a given amount of POWER... which ONCE again can be overcome by the flexible nature of the panels IF necessary...

Only? ...Actually, CIGS is VASTLY much better off than Si for mobile applications ...
Of course, it is better having a moderately aerodynamic panel than not...especially when the e-bike is under power and at speed.

So, you're saying that adding solar arrays to a bike is a magnet for theft while having a nice bike, expensive headlight, nice seat, fine tires, is not? Shiny, like Si? j/k;)
Regardless, I AM saying that the flexible and portable nature of these arrays make it entirely possible to REMOVE the blasted things in a hurry IF necessary... so there goes the theft concern down the drain essentially. Other options to secure the cells exist IF you're that concerned that the CIGS arrays might be stolen and the bike left intact which I'd highly, highly doubt.
Good for you. ;)

Who CARES how OLD you are? You do have access to the media, yes? If you have access to the media, then you have access to indoctrinated stereotypes. ;)

But, I have. Even YOU have suggested some very good reasons. Maybe, just maybe, you live in a mobile environment without constant access to the grid, i.e. without a fixed home. Like most people, our source of power revolves around a fixed domicile. Some people live out of their cars. Granted, living a nomadic life is NOT normal currently, but very well may be in times of crises. Notice, I intentionally did NOT use the word, homeless, whatever that means as ANOTHER indoctrinated stereotype. BTW, I'm not homeless. Maybe, just maybe, you're tired of the constant and essentially needless task of manually recharging batteries, etc. (*) But you likely know these benefits of mobile solar applications already ;)

* Primarily daytime usage

Yes, and I could say that gallium arsenide is much better than CIGS, which by many means it is. That doesn't mean that it solves the stated problems. Neither CIGS nor GaAs do. Its also very very expensive.

What i'm saying is that without considerable amounts of custom fabrication and integration into the vehicle, the array could be removed or broken with a rock. Never had someone try to nick the Deore off your handlebars? Left a Dinoette on while you ran in for coffee? Well, I haven't because that would be silly to leave a dinoette running while you go in for coffee, but people do, and they disappear.

Solving these problems only increases the cost and complexity further, in a problem which for most applications never needed to be solved in the first place. If you remove them, they're not doing you any benefit. Dragging a fairing into the grocery store doesn't seem practical. If you don't remove them, they're likely to go the way of the coffee shop dinoette.

I don't watch TV, or pay much attention to the media. I learned what works, simplicity and reliability. Why solve a problem that doesn't need to be solved? There isn't any need or advantage for solar in a domestic market, and an attempt to introduce it only causes a large string of complications which would then need to be overcome in order to achieve everyday functionality. Thats not living in the 90s so much as it is living with a belief in practical engineering.

I've already personally stated this in every single reasoning post: *without need, there is no reason*
if someone lived in a situation where the grid isn't practical, then solar makes sense. These situations are simply not common however, and solar panels provide nothing but further complications that need not be solved in any other situation.

Extended range IF you have a fixed domicile.... ;)

Abneycat,

You don't NEED to drag the fairing into the grocery. Simply remove the CIGS arrays attached to it... Anyhow, you're still young so you'll see for yourself. Frankly, I'm glad that I'm on the way out. Good luck...and good night...

Extended range IF you have a fixed domicile.... ;)

Abneycat,

You don't NEED to drag the fairing into the grocery. Simply remove the CIGS arrays attached to it... Anyhow, you're still young so you'll see for yourself. Frankly, I'm glad that I'm on the way out. Good luck...and good night...

Perhaps i'll see for myself, I wouldn't doubt that some form of portable energy solution will come about, but not this year, and I still disagree on the application. At any rate, most fairings are foldable, but there isn't a lot of convenience in a system where you have to not only perform the typical locking of the bike, but detach and fold your fairing/detach your array, plus your battery, and pack them both around?

At any rate, good night :)