Road Cycling - talk to this novice about wheel sets in simple English

I was just reading the post on people's favorite wheel sets and earlier I was trying shop on-line for a set. Then I realized, suddenly, Oh, hey! I know just about nothing about all of this. I've always just used the wheels that came with the bike, or if those broke, just bought whatever my LBS had the cheapest. The back wheel of my new-to-me Raleigh keeps breaking spokes. One breaks. I replace it. Next day, another breaks. I figure rather than messing around any longer, I'd just get new wheels. Something better than what I have right now. They don't have to be ultra-light. They do have to be very strong. I ride streets that are in pretty nasty condition, with pot holes and uneven patches, the whole gamut of urban street conditions. I don't want to spend a ton of money. I got the bike for less than $90, so it doesn't make sense to put $500 worth of wheel on it. Size wise, the stickers on the current wheels say they're 27" by 1 1/4". I know people talk about wheel size in metric usually. What does this translate into? Suggestions for websites for the best deal? Any help appreciated. Oh, and for the velo snobs, I guess getting new wheels means I have a chance to get rid of the plastic spoke protector. :)

The 27" wheel is the "American/English" size for a 700c wheel, (not much difference between them in diameter- only a few mm ) , most brakes can be adusted to work with both, . There are many more choices in tires and rims available for 700c. Of course the 700c and 27" tires are not interchangeable.

You may just need to have your present wheel rebuilt!!!!

As spokes are ridden many miles, they will "crystalize" or fatigue . While riding the spokes are constantly flexed, ( or are continuallly being bent and rebent ), at the 90 degree bend at the nipple and eventually weaken and start breaking- and all them will have to be replaced. This is a common malady especially with inexpensive spokes. A superior quality spoke like "DT" or "Wheelsmith" will last much longer than the "bargain" variety. Some think the "double butted" spoke is more durable because it tends to stretch rather than snap, but they're far more expensive.

I prefer to get good quality hubs, (Campagnolo, Mavic, Phil Wood etc. - the sealed bearings/bearing races are replaceable), rims ( Mavic, Bontrager Campy etc. etc. they're "bomb-proof" and the spokes mentioned above, and maintain them. A high quality hub can give you hundreds of thousands of miles and a good rim or spoke can give you tens of thousands. Stay basic- no need for deep section or aero rims and you may not want to spend the money to get a hub that could (theoretically) last the rest of your life.

Getting a "good" wheel-set is the easiest and most efficient way to upgrade a bike for more performance and of course wheelsets can be transferred from bike to bike.

Ride the good wheel
Pat

I wouldn't bvother trying to retain any of the components of the old wheel. Hubs are relatively cheap, but (long with the bottom bracket at the cranks) they are the heart of the bike so go for a half-decent hub. (price the cheapest, and the dearest and aim for the middle!!)
Unless your a full-on race-nazi don't get uptight about double-butted spokes and aero rims. Ask about the rims that will suit the type of riding you do - the speed/surface and load you carry.


And then buy race-replica, Tour de FRance team colour rim tape.

Stew

WRONG!!!!
A 700 wheel is not the same as a 27" wheel!!! 27" wheels use a 630mm rim, 700c wheels use a 622mm rim!! They are not intechangeable!
I don't have a clue what you mean by the term "crystallizes", but let me set you straight. What a spoke can do is fail either by fatigue, or by rupture. Most non-butted spokes fail at the bend, regardless of the reason for failure. Were the reason fatigue, I wouldn't expect multiple failures. It sounds like some ham-fisted backyard mechanic over tensioned the spokes! When truing a wheel, you must de-tension spokes on one side when you tension them on the other!
Please know what you are talking about before you give answers. Giving bad advice only makes things worse, and make you look foolish.
(I am a mechanical engineer, ASME member, in case you wish for qualification.)

added 10/8:
Please note: this was a response to the original posting by pat5319. He has since edited the post, in a vicious attempt to make me look like a moron, after sending me threatening e-mails. Please see later posts (and flames) in this thread for an explanation.
Originally, he said nothing about fatigue, and wrote only that 700c was equivalent to 27". This, of course, was wrong, and by changing his post, he must also agree to this fact.
He only changed it after I nailed him on the subject. I stand behind everything which I have written here, and on other related posts. Unfortunately, Pat5319 seems to believe he can change his words after the fact, then call me a liar.
Beware of any advice by him, and expect abolutely no integrity from him.

Hi HillaryRose,

I use a mavic road pro wheel set with a 32 spoke cross over pattern . The set was built for me at my local LBS. I have put over 14000 miles on the set with only one broken spoke. This set is very strong and can take some pretty hard knocks. I have been using a 700X28 tire for everday rides. I like the crossover as opposed to the spokes under tension because if out on a ride and one of my spokes breaks I just tape it to another spoke and ride on . The set costs me 300 bucks . *S*THis wheel set is strong but not so heavy you cant put 700X23 on them and race away.

Ride Safe....Dudley

Unfortunately, you aren't going to find anything in 27" on any website-this size is now obsolete. Since the bike sounds like a cheap heap (and poorly maintained, to boot), you probably want to look for a used wheel in your size. Check eBay, or even your local "swap" paper. Of course, you will need to know the rim width you will be needing, as well as the proper dropout spacing. If the bike has shorter reach calipers, a smaller (700c) wheel will not work.
You could try to respoke the wheel, but chances are that the rim has also been damaged because of the over-torquing of the spokes, and will likely be junk, also. It is also possible that the hub flange has been weakened, too.
In any event, it would help to get a decent book on bike repairs, rather than relying on suspect information from people who don't know the answer. There are many variables to consider here.

Originally posted by D*Alex
Unfortunately, you aren't going to find anything in 27" on any website-this size is now obsolete.

Obsolescent, possibly, but findable. Harris Cyclery has complete 27" wheelsets for @ $100:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/wheels.html

BTW... New bikes with 27" wheels were being made late into the 1980s -- mostly English and Japanese touring bikes -- so if you hunt around bike shops, you might be able to find some nice, clean and fairly modern 27" wheels.

BTW, shopping for old components can be a blast!

OK, now I've just got to know what the heck a ruptured spoke is (maybe failure under tension?) Whatever it is, it sounds PAINFUL.

It's when one of the spokes (the long, thin metal things which hold your rim to your hub) breaks. Rupture refers to any failure caused by tension.
FWIW, I doubt that this bike is worth the $100 a new wheel will cost. This whole bike cost her less than the tyres on my roadbike cost. The bike is probably near the end of it's life, anyway, and it was a low-end model to begin with, so re-spoking the old wheel, or buying a used wheel is probably the way to go.

Originally posted by D*Alex
FWIW, I doubt that this bike is worth the $100 a new wheel will cost. This whole bike cost her less than the tyres on my roadbike cost. The bike is probably near the end of it's life, anyway, and it was a low-end model to begin with, so re-spoking the old wheel, or buying a used wheel is probably the way to go.
Perhaps, but, if you look around used bike shops, you can probably find a wheelset for @ $25. I pooped into one shop on the way to a meeting today, and saw a pair of rather nice looking mid-80s 27" touring wheels [SunTour hubs, alloy/alu rims] on a beat-up looking Fuji. The shop wanted $35 Canadian for the whole bike...

Hi! Hillaryrose; Did you get enough "plain English"? The gist of it is: don't mix 27" with 700c wheels. Getting the brakes to work may prove difficult unless yours have extra long arms with slots to adjust the brakes up and down to accomodate different sizes. Even then it may prove tricky. I'd suggest also that you didn't get rid of the plastic spoke protector unless you are going to put on a new one. Chains have a way of jumping off that big gear and chewing the spokes up so that you will be in the same predicament you are now. Rebuilt wheels comparable to what you have should run 50% of new. Around here (Maine) that is about $15.00, for a rear wheel and $10.00, for a front one. That is for steel Rims. Alloy (aluminum) about $3.00, more. I hope you find something that you can live with.
Don't be intimidated by too much technical crap. Buy what you can afford and if it's round and true, you'll probably be just as content as us fellows with the $700.00 wheel sets.
Dig into the yellow pages and call around until you find what you need. Chicago is an incredible town for bike shops.
They had a group there called "Chicago Area Bicycle Dealers Association" which just went out of business after about 50 years or so. CABDA also had a mechanics school which may still be in business. They trained a lot of good mechanics in your area. So you're luckier than most of us, in that respect. CABDA also, used to put a show on in Rosemont, at the convention center for the general public which was similar to the one that was for the trade. The main difference being the prices were retail not wholesale. Good Luck! and Happy Commuting.

"...Beat-up looking Fuji...." careful there, Velocipedio, beneath that neglected exterior might beat the heart of a thoroughbred! Some of the older ones (pre-1990) can be some pretty great machines!

Hillary, sounds like you got plenty of advice! You know me, all I own is used stuff, so the idea of finding some used wheels would be right up my alley! I fixed up an old bike for the bride that has 27 inch wheels on it, and even managed to get new tires and tubes at one of the major discount super stores!

Good luck, and enjoy that Raliegh!!

Another country heard from...

Okay, not seeing the bike, this is just a SWAG (Scientific Wild-@ss Guess), but I think you'd be fine just getting your existing wheel re-built, using existing hub and rim. It is possible that you've got a damaged rim causing your problem, your bike shop will be able to tell. But I'd guess Pat's point is correct. I had a similar problem with a fairly new wheel once... it just kept popping spokes. In my case, it had been built poorly. In any case, the rebuild fixed it. Don't know what it'll run in your area, but I'm guessing $40-$50. A decent wheel will set you back a whole lot more than that. Put the difference toward a future bike upgrade... good wheels, components, etc. cost a lot less when they come as part of a complete bike.

P.S. They should use good spokes that won't corrode quickly.

P.P.S. Leave the spoke protector... it beats a chain wedged between the cog-set and spokes. Just be sure to leave it off when you upgrade to the Colnago CT1 w/Campy Record.

Good Luck!

I collect old bikes, and all but one of my road bikes use 27" wheels. Perhaps eventually these tires will disappear, and rims are already hard to find. Performance Bike Shops (Diversey/Halsted and Northbrook) carry sizes from 1 1/4" to 1".

I've got a 27" wheelset in good condition with steel rims, Shimano hubs, quick releases, and a five-speed freewheel - free to a good home in the Chicago area.

Jeez! Just because I didn't pay much money for this bike, there's no reason to call it a cheap heap! I'm here to get advice on how to keep a bike that I have a strong personal attachment to rolling, not to have my bike be insulted. I'm sorry, but I do enjoy riding this bike. Lots. I'm not sure at this point how much more I'd enjoy a $1500 bike or $2000 bike or whatever. Yes, a "good" roadie is on the wish list for some day, but for now, this is the bike I'm riding. No more rude comments, please. And yes, it is worth it, to me, to sink another $100 into this bike, if it means I can ride it for another couple of years.

Velocipedio- thanks for the tip to Harris cyclery. I looked on the site and found the wheels. I think I'm going to go with them. I'll call tomorrow morning. I think mail ordering through them would probably be more convenient than calling each one of the quatrillion bike shops in the area. Besides, it'd be cool to maybe have a chance to talk to Sheldon Brown himself. I've been slowly working my way through the articles on his website.

Hillary, I'd take Oscar up on his offer, actually. If you like the wheels, you've saved some bucks, if you don't you can always order from Harris.

Me? I always like free... like the very cool free wool jersey one of my cycling buddies gave me. Of course, my partner likes free, too and the jersey fits her better... sigh...

HillaryRose- I'm sorry to have gotten so "wordy" earlier, I should have kept my answer to the subject at hand. I know about being fond of an old bike, I had an old one speed schwinn stolen from me and I mourned it as if it were one of my hi-zoot Italian frames. Maybe a friend you know will turn you on to a shop near you run by an old guy with "just the right attitude" or a local club has a newsletter somewhere with an add for unwanted stuff that is perfect for you. Or your website will be "just the thing" I've put new stuff on bikes that are over 30 years old!!
As long as the wheels go 'round
Pat

D*Alex, try learning to comment on what you read- not what you read into......
and learn to be nice

Ride with humility
Pat

Ummm...
What I read was you telling her that a 700c tyre and a 27" tyre were the same thing. I was not prepared to sit back while an ignoramus gave incorrect advice on something that they knew nothing about!

You can call me arrogant, but at least that's better than being a dumb@$$. You can be as humble as you wish, but don't be an idiot.

WOW. And here I thought bicycles were just about getting out in the fresh air and having some fun. I had no IDEA the how serious a matter it is! How did I get by riding bikes for nearly 40 years without an engineering degree! I feel so...inadequate.

You know, we're just a bunch of friends hanging out and talking about bikes, helping each other when we can, learning a lot from each other. Some, like me, are very much novices. Others have been riding for 20, 30, 40 or 50 years and have much to share. Why not treat each other as friends and drop this particular thread right now?

Originally posted by RainmanP
You know, we're just a bunch of friends hanging out and talking about bikes. Why not treat each other as friends and drop this particular thread right now?

But even friends get snippy occasionally too. Its what makes group dynamics so interesting.

It'll settle down. Always does. ;)
Stew

Well, personally, I can't stand when somebody gets sanctimoinious about my post after they spout garbage. When somebody asks for advice, they don't know what is valid and what is not. As a result, incorrect answers from those who are ignorant of the truth who try to pass themselves off as being knowlegable is hypocracy.
I will always expose hypocrites. I don't care if I do offend them, because I don't associate with fools. And suggesting that I be humble after exposing them, well, that really gets my Irish up!!
If you don't know anything about a subject, either state so in your post, or just stay out of it.

Could some one tell this novice (me) what is the difference between "good wheels" and "not so good wheels" beside thier durability and weight.. how does a "good wheel" effect the ride quality?

I use the bike to commute (26m round trip) on roads and streets, what would be an ideal wheel..


Thanks,

A.

Sorebutt,
I will start a new thread on this.
Regards,
Raymond

A "cheap" wheel probably rides the same as any other wheel, it just has bearings and spokes which crap out in a very short time period. Your tyres make the most difference in ride, not the wheel.
Look for a wheel which has aluminum rims and a name-brand hub. Steel rims are crap.
You are riding 26" wheels on a road bike?? There really isn't much of a selection in that size, if I remember.

D*Alex- I did NOT tell anyone that 700c and 27" wheels were the same. I said that that most brakes will work with both sizes, in case the person had to switch from 27" to 700c wheels, and that more types of tires were available in the 700c size. I aso mentioned higher quality wheels because they last much longer and can be used on another bike in the future, this was for everyone's benefit. I never mentioned deep section or aero rims- you did.
ride more
Pat

Well, Pat, you originally stated that:

The 27" wheel is the "American/English" size for a 700c wheel.
This is dead wrong. Later in your post, you edited the post to state that they are not interchangeable, contradicting your previous response. I know that you edited the post last night, because of the line at the bottom which read:

Last edited by pat5319 on October 3rd at 12:31 AM.
Do you really think that I am that stupid?? Are you really that stupid??
I was initially reluctant to call you an ignoramus publically, (which you are), but you openly rebuked my private message to you. Then you tried sanctimnity on me, but that didn't work. Then you lied about what you said, after you edited your post. I now contend that you are not only an idiot, but a liar as well.
Once you remove your head from your rectal cavity, I suggest that you actually use the contents therin before you make a total @$$ of yourself again. (That is, if there are any contents.)

Is this really worth all this heat? I don't see it. It's certainly not worth getting personal.

A writer that is confident with his ability to use the written word can express disagreement without personal attacks and associated vitriol.

Rise to the challenge!

:beer:

Hey, I'm not the person who's giving bad advice, sanctimoniously chiding the person who corrects them, editing my posts then lying about what I said, and libeling another member! Pat made the decision to slander me! My honor has been assailed, and my knowledge has been challenged. I'm not going to sit back while anybody uses deceipt to smear me!
If you don't like it, write a letter to Pat. In the mean time, I'm waiting for an apology.

I'm sorry! There! Now get over it and move on dude! Life's too short to be arguing over 700c vs 27". You're too smart to let this get to you!!!!

L8R G8R

Is there a psychotherapist in the house?

How about a professional arbitrator?
:fight: :fight: :fight:

(BTW, I'm still waiting.)

Alex,please,please,please Shut the F*ck up for once !, I remember a long time ago @ the Bike Forums, it used to be a nice friendly "family" affair, if a forum member was not quite right in posting a reply,somebody else would post a more correct answer but not as to make another forum member look stupid,please do us all a favor here at the forums and display a little tact ! ok ?.

To get back on the subject Hilary Rose, i run two bikes with 27" wheels and over here in Scotland tyres are getting harder to come by.

My Sg frame has Campag hubs and Wolber Cuper Champion rims and double butted spokes, hand built. In 17 years they have only had to be trued 3 times but I do check tensions now and again. A good strong rim on a quality hub (the Campag rear has NEVER been touched) will roll forever if you're careful how you ride.

My other bike has mavic rims and Campag hubs. The Mavics aren't as strong as the Wolbers, but the rear is a 40 spoker.

I will swap to 700c or even 26" (the fashion for heavy tourers in Europe now is a 26" wheel) but this will involve new braze ons to put cantilever brakes on .

Buy a wheel building guide or go on a course. It's fascinating stuff and helps if you should meet up with baggage handlers at Edinburgh airport who jam your bike in the liggage door!!!

Good handbuilt wheels (whatever the size) maximise the life of the constituent components.

By the way. Come on guys. We're arguing about bike wheels with all that's going on in the world? :)

Everyone here has given good advice, let's not cloud the issues with personal attacks that distract us from the point of the thread...in other words, it's not what you say, it's how you say it, right?:D

How about a professional arbitrator?
:fight: :fight: :fight:

(BTW, I'm still waiting.)

We don't need one. Just good advice or opinions and tons of *** RESPECT***.

what in the world.... I saw D*Alex's name and I thought he was back.. LOL

talk about "thread from the dead"!!

He's probably still waiting for his apology, too.

Does anyone know how many times the word "sanctimonious" or a derivitive thereof was used in this thread? HA! I never thought I'd hear that word used here. This made my ass hurt more than my saddle... Can't we all just get along?

wow, why did we bring this thread back up...

D*Alex could be a real jackass, along with pokey, but they usually knew their stuff. I just wish that they hadn't gone and gotten all hot-headed and gotten themselves banned.

As long as this thread has been dug up...

I'll answer the original question....since it really hasnt been answered yet.

A 'wheelset' refers to a pair of wheels, front and back, built with the same components. In other words, the front and rear wheels have the same manufacturer and model for the hubs, spokes, and rims. You will, on occasion, see 'wheelsets' offered on E-bay that arent true 'wheelsets'. They may have different hubs by different manufacturers of different model levels. I consider these to be a 'pair of wheels'.

I going to do this on a novice level....

Rims...aluminum is lighter than steel and surprisingly stronger. aluminum rims stop much better, especially when wet.

Hubs...either 'sealed' bearings or 'cup and cone'. Sealed bearings need less maintenance but cup and cone bearings have less friction.

Spokes...more spokes yield a stronger wheel. The stresses in the wheels are distributed over say, 48 spokes, versus 24.
Thicker spokes are stronger.

So, whats it all come down to? well, you dont need a wheelset. A rear wheel will do.
Your best option is a wheel with an aluminum rim and 36 spokes. You may have difficulty finding anything other than 36 spokes in an economical wheel.

Since posting qualifications seems to an integral part of this thread...

Jim....ex-mechanic of 12 years with over 2,000 custom wheel builds. Good enough?

WOW. I used to frequent an automotive forum that had one, just ONE member that was very knowledgeable but would always add personal attacks. One of the members got so mad that he started another forum where this guy was not allowed. The original forum is now gone because almost everyone moved to the new forum.

my mtb has a 12 yr old mavick w\ swiss dt spokes on a shimano deore dx hub ( rear ) is working beautifully. I would highly recommend the mavick\dt swiss combo-J
( I bought my bike for 150- must be a junker-NOT! ) best to you in your wheeling and dealing.jeff

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=41966