operator
I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics?
Where does most of the cost come from in LED systems?
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Ziemas
I'd say the batteries and the gee-whiz factor. Prices for lights are going down and down all the time.
ViperZ
I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics?
I would say depending on units, it could be the sum of the parts, and the overhead for the companies R&D, marketing, sales distribution, service and warranty...etc. Like most other specialized products, there is a premium to be paid for leading edge.
Looking at Cutter Electronics to build a DIY 3 array LED of the same class as say a Dinotte 600L, it would cost at least $174 for the 3 emitter Cree MR11 Kit (includes LED driver), and a slick machined housing. This does not include batteries, or charger. The batteries would be around ~$65 for 2 x 4000mAh units and a smart charger.
So we are roughly up to $234 with out shipping and assembly for the parts. I think the $389 I paid for a canned solution 600L is a small price to pay for all the other overhead.
This is just one example, and certainly it could be done cheaper or more expensive.
Next season I may just have to look at building one for fun!
I would say depending on units, it could be the sum of the parts, and the overhead for the companies R&D, marketing, sales distribution, service and warranty...etc. Like most other specialized products, there is a premium to be paid for leading edge.
Looking at Cutter Electronics to build a DIY 3 array LED of the same class as say a Dinotte 600L, it would cost at least $174 for the 3 emitter Cree MR11 Kit (includes LED driver), and a slick machined housing. This does not include batteries, or charger. The batteries would be around ~$65 for 2 x 4000mAh units and a smart charger.
So we are roughly up to $234 with out shipping and assembly for the parts. I think the $389 I paid for a canned solution 600L is a small price to pay for all the other overhead.
This is just one example, and certainly it could be done cheaper or more expensive.
Next season I may just have to look at building one for fun!
skingry
Looking at Cutter Electronics to build a DIY 3 array LED of the same class as say a Dinotte 600L, it would cost at least $174 for the 3 emitter Cree MR11 Kit (includes LED driver), and a slick machined housing.
Breaking down your $174 figure:
~$15 US for a triple lens (Cutter or LED Spot)
~$18 US for three emitters (Deal Extreme)
~$32 US for the driver (Task LED)
--Total minus the housing ~$65 US... so it's safe to say the majority of the cost involved is the housing (Electronics - $65, Batteries - $65, Housing $100+ if you are buying it pre-made).
Still the 100+ for a housing is a bit steep. This is probably due to them not being made in quantity by whoever is charging that much... considering you can get a 'Cree x3 X-550' flashlight on ebay for that much... that's a flashlight, with the electronics (emitters/lenses and driver), a machined aluminum body, two Lion rechargeable batteries, a charger, and shipping.
Breaking down your $174 figure:
~$15 US for a triple lens (Cutter or LED Spot)
~$18 US for three emitters (Deal Extreme)
~$32 US for the driver (Task LED)
--Total minus the housing ~$65 US... so it's safe to say the majority of the cost involved is the housing (Electronics - $65, Batteries - $65, Housing $100+ if you are buying it pre-made).
Still the 100+ for a housing is a bit steep. This is probably due to them not being made in quantity by whoever is charging that much... considering you can get a 'Cree x3 X-550' flashlight on ebay for that much... that's a flashlight, with the electronics (emitters/lenses and driver), a machined aluminum body, two Lion rechargeable batteries, a charger, and shipping.
jeff-o
The machined aluminum body and lithium batteries contribute to most of the cost, followed by assembly, then the driver, then the emitters, then everything else.
ViperZ
Breaking down your $174 figure:
~$15 US for a triple lens (Cutter or LED Spot)
~$18 US for three emitters (Deal Extreme)
~$32 US for the driver (Task LED)
--Total minus the housing ~$65 US... so it's safe to say the majority of the cost involved is the housing (Electronics - $65, Batteries - $65, Housing $100+ if you are buying it pre-made).
Still the 100+ for a housing is a bit steep. This is probably due to them not being made in quantity by whoever is charging that much... considering you can get a 'Cree x3 X-550' flashlight on ebay for that much... that's a flashlight, with the electronics (emitters/lenses and driver), a machined aluminum body, two Lion rechargeable batteries, a charger, and shipping.
Are those emitter arrays you quoted of the same Output level as the Cree MR11 or Dinotte 600L, and do they have the same quality controllers and drivers?
~$15 US for a triple lens (Cutter or LED Spot)
~$18 US for three emitters (Deal Extreme)
~$32 US for the driver (Task LED)
--Total minus the housing ~$65 US... so it's safe to say the majority of the cost involved is the housing (Electronics - $65, Batteries - $65, Housing $100+ if you are buying it pre-made).
Still the 100+ for a housing is a bit steep. This is probably due to them not being made in quantity by whoever is charging that much... considering you can get a 'Cree x3 X-550' flashlight on ebay for that much... that's a flashlight, with the electronics (emitters/lenses and driver), a machined aluminum body, two Lion rechargeable batteries, a charger, and shipping.
Are those emitter arrays you quoted of the same Output level as the Cree MR11 or Dinotte 600L, and do they have the same quality controllers and drivers?
n4zou
http://www.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_9358_1_small.jpg
3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator + Reflector 2x18650 Module Set (3.6V-9V) $28.27
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9358
You'll need to fabricate a cap with switch for the back where it would screw on a Cree flashlight battery case.
Unsolder the springs and replace with wire to an external battery pack.
3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator + Reflector 2x18650 Module Set (3.6V-9V) $28.27
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9358
You'll need to fabricate a cap with switch for the back where it would screw on a Cree flashlight battery case.
Unsolder the springs and replace with wire to an external battery pack.
Mr. Underbridge
R&D. Early adopter tax.
ViperZ
http://www.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_9358_1_small.jpg
3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator + Reflector 2x18650 Module Set (3.6V-9V) $28.27
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9358
You'll need to fabricate a cap with switch for the back where it would screw on a Cree flashlight battery case.
Unsolder the springs and replace with wire to an external battery pack.
Do you have specs (output and efficiency's) for that?
Looks like a good project.
3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator + Reflector 2x18650 Module Set (3.6V-9V) $28.27
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9358
You'll need to fabricate a cap with switch for the back where it would screw on a Cree flashlight battery case.
Unsolder the springs and replace with wire to an external battery pack.
Do you have specs (output and efficiency's) for that?
Looks like a good project.
ViperZ
Here is a read on the Cree 3 Mode (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=174921)
It's not for me...
It's not for me...
n4zou
Do you have specs (output and efficiency's) for that?
Looks like a good project.
Just the info on the site. It just showed up a few days ago. No review as yet as it takes a week of so shipping time. Should be the same as this flashlight but not 100% sure.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5971
Looks like a good project.
Just the info on the site. It just showed up a few days ago. No review as yet as it takes a week of so shipping time. Should be the same as this flashlight but not 100% sure.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.5971
Ziemas
Here is a read on the Cree 3 Mode (http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=174921)
It's not for me...
What exactly is the problem that you have with it?
It's not for me...
What exactly is the problem that you have with it?
skingry
Are those emitter arrays you quoted of the same Output level as the Cree MR11 or Dinotte 600L, and do they have the same quality controllers and drivers?
The emitters are U-binned SSC P4's (5.82 each) Linky (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1445).
The emitters are U-binned SSC P4's (5.82 each) Linky (http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1445).
2manybikes
I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics?
If it's a custom made lens, the tooling for the lens production. If it's a custom housing the tooling for the housing production too.
And enough profit built in so that a retailer will make enough from your product to want to sell it. Without that there will be no bike shop sales, or big mail order company sales etc. And labor to assemble the product depending on where they are made.
Those are probably the highest things. The custom made circuit board would be another if that light has one. But the fixed costs like mortage or rent and utilities can vary so much it's hard to guess about one particular light. The cost of living from country to country and even from town to town can really change things.
If it's a custom made lens, the tooling for the lens production. If it's a custom housing the tooling for the housing production too.
And enough profit built in so that a retailer will make enough from your product to want to sell it. Without that there will be no bike shop sales, or big mail order company sales etc. And labor to assemble the product depending on where they are made.
Those are probably the highest things. The custom made circuit board would be another if that light has one. But the fixed costs like mortage or rent and utilities can vary so much it's hard to guess about one particular light. The cost of living from country to country and even from town to town can really change things.
znomit
Well this is part of the cost too.
You make a "OMG P4 71 lums per watt" triple cree state of the art light head and by the time it gets designed, produced and shipped people say "Meh, I want my R2s cause they have 40% more light". So it doesn't sell.
However you look at it, this is a triple led machined head and driver for 28$. Yeah you will pay a few dollars more for a nicer driver and better LEDs.
A cateye el530 is very nicely made, if underpowered, and sells for about 40$, so presumably combining the two a nice triple can be make for well under 70$ even with the best drivers (I think if cateye called taskled and asked for 10,000 boards they wouldn't be charged 30$ each).
The homebrew LED light scene is busy because we can put together good lights for cheaper than the retail options. Once Cree stop the improvements and they same light can be sold year after year at your LBS hopefully prices will half, and we can all go find new hobbies.
You make a "OMG P4 71 lums per watt" triple cree state of the art light head and by the time it gets designed, produced and shipped people say "Meh, I want my R2s cause they have 40% more light". So it doesn't sell.
However you look at it, this is a triple led machined head and driver for 28$. Yeah you will pay a few dollars more for a nicer driver and better LEDs.
A cateye el530 is very nicely made, if underpowered, and sells for about 40$, so presumably combining the two a nice triple can be make for well under 70$ even with the best drivers (I think if cateye called taskled and asked for 10,000 boards they wouldn't be charged 30$ each).
The homebrew LED light scene is busy because we can put together good lights for cheaper than the retail options. Once Cree stop the improvements and they same light can be sold year after year at your LBS hopefully prices will half, and we can all go find new hobbies.
GlowBoy
Overhead and profit. IMO most of the commercial LED systems are ridiculously overpriced considering the cost of the parts.
But this is only more true than with halogens by a matter of degree. My $140 homebrew system blows the lenses off any $300 halogen system I know of. Only HIDs beat it, and not all of them do.
But this is only more true than with halogens by a matter of degree. My $140 homebrew system blows the lenses off any $300 halogen system I know of. Only HIDs beat it, and not all of them do.
operator
http://www.dealextreme.com/productimages/sku_9358_1_small.jpg
3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator + Reflector 2x18650 Module Set (3.6V-9V) $28.27
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9358
You'll need to fabricate a cap with switch for the back where it would screw on a Cree flashlight battery case.
Unsolder the springs and replace with wire to an external battery pack.
What's the lumens on that?
3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator + Reflector 2x18650 Module Set (3.6V-9V) $28.27
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.9358
You'll need to fabricate a cap with switch for the back where it would screw on a Cree flashlight battery case.
Unsolder the springs and replace with wire to an external battery pack.
What's the lumens on that?
ViperZ
What exactly is the problem that you have with it?
Not to sound pompous, but it's est 300lumen output, it's not the caliber of something I would use in a build.
I have a lot to learn before I attempt one, however I can't see me, personally, saving a lot of money over a canned solution. Just like the parts I quoted, it would still cost a lot regardless. For me it would be more for the fun and pride of building a current state of the art unit, using the latest equipment tech available.
Not to sound pompous, but it's est 300lumen output, it's not the caliber of something I would use in a build.
I have a lot to learn before I attempt one, however I can't see me, personally, saving a lot of money over a canned solution. Just like the parts I quoted, it would still cost a lot regardless. For me it would be more for the fun and pride of building a current state of the art unit, using the latest equipment tech available.
Ziemas
Not to sound pompous, but it's est 300lumen output, it's not the caliber of something I would use in a build.
I have a lot to learn before I attempt one, however I can't see me, personally, saving a lot of money over a canned solution. Just like the parts I quoted, it would still cost a lot regardless. For me it would be more for the fun and pride of building a current state of the art unit, using the latest equipment tech available.
That a ready solution flashlight you linked to; nothing to do with a build kit. It is a canned solution, and a cheap one.
I have a lot to learn before I attempt one, however I can't see me, personally, saving a lot of money over a canned solution. Just like the parts I quoted, it would still cost a lot regardless. For me it would be more for the fun and pride of building a current state of the art unit, using the latest equipment tech available.
That a ready solution flashlight you linked to; nothing to do with a build kit. It is a canned solution, and a cheap one.
ViperZ
That a ready solution flashlight you linked to; nothing to do with a build kit. It is a canned solution, and a cheap one.
That's is my point, it's using the 3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator linked above for $28.27, I suspect it's not in the same league as the Wilma or 600L. Thus it's not for me.....
You asked "What exactly is the problem that you have with it?"
That's is my point, it's using the 3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator linked above for $28.27, I suspect it's not in the same league as the Wilma or 600L. Thus it's not for me.....
You asked "What exactly is the problem that you have with it?"
Ziemas
That's is my point, it's using the 3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator linked above for $28.27, I suspect it's not in the same league as the Wilma or 600L. Thus it's not for me.....
You asked "What exactly is the problem that you have with it?"
I mean what in the link that you posted along with your comment makes you say that? It seems to have decent reviews considering the cost.
You asked "What exactly is the problem that you have with it?"
I mean what in the link that you posted along with your comment makes you say that? It seems to have decent reviews considering the cost.
ViperZ
I mean what in the link that you posted along with your comment makes you say that? It seems to have decent reviews considering the cost.
Somewhere in the link it states the expected lumens is about 300.... Thats not enough for me at this point.
If I build something it's going to have to eclipse my current systems, as such will not be cheap (currently), I think.
Somewhere in the link it states the expected lumens is about 300.... Thats not enough for me at this point.
If I build something it's going to have to eclipse my current systems, as such will not be cheap (currently), I think.
znomit
About 10lm per dollar.... sounds pretty good.
No its not in the same league as a dinotte or wilma (less than 2lm per dollar).
No its not in the same league as a dinotte or wilma (less than 2lm per dollar).
ViperZ
About 10lm per dollar.... sounds pretty good.
No its not in the same league as a dinotte or wilma (less than 2lm per dollar).
Case, battery, charger, straps, mounting, build time, having something tried and true....
No its not in the same league as a dinotte or wilma (less than 2lm per dollar).
Case, battery, charger, straps, mounting, build time, having something tried and true....
operator
That's is my point, it's using the 3-LED Cree 3-Mode Regulator linked above for $28.27, I suspect it's not in the same league as the Wilma or 600L. Thus it's not for me.....
You asked "What exactly is the problem that you have with it?"
It says it's $44.97 here. That is still considerably less than the retail of ~ $170 for the 200L. Obviously won't be anywhere near the 600L. But 300L > 200L...
Couldn't you just stack 2 x 300L flashlights = 600L?
Case, battery, charger, straps, mounting, build time, having something tried and true....
I wasn't impressed with the mounting system that came with the 200L. My battery pack slides all over the top tube with the included 2x velcro straps. The small one and the big one are equally bad. I've accidentally hit the battery pouch once and spilled it all over the road with my new while getting out to sprint :( How hard would've it have been to have something that would securely attach the AA case to your bike?
Batteries and charger - didn't really matter much to me. I picked up a 2500mah AA Energizer nimh's complete with charget at walmart for $27. (Since I got the "weekend" sale version of the light which did not include charger/battery).
For $45, that dealextreme flashlight looks like a steal.
You asked "What exactly is the problem that you have with it?"
It says it's $44.97 here. That is still considerably less than the retail of ~ $170 for the 200L. Obviously won't be anywhere near the 600L. But 300L > 200L...
Couldn't you just stack 2 x 300L flashlights = 600L?
Case, battery, charger, straps, mounting, build time, having something tried and true....
I wasn't impressed with the mounting system that came with the 200L. My battery pack slides all over the top tube with the included 2x velcro straps. The small one and the big one are equally bad. I've accidentally hit the battery pouch once and spilled it all over the road with my new while getting out to sprint :( How hard would've it have been to have something that would securely attach the AA case to your bike?
Batteries and charger - didn't really matter much to me. I picked up a 2500mah AA Energizer nimh's complete with charget at walmart for $27. (Since I got the "weekend" sale version of the light which did not include charger/battery).
For $45, that dealextreme flashlight looks like a steal.
ViperZ
It says it's $44.97 here. That is still considerably less than the retail of ~ $170 for the 200L.
So after case, batteries, chargers etc, it's more what I got the 200L on sale for...
Knock yourself out and make a few ;)
So after case, batteries, chargers etc, it's more what I got the 200L on sale for...
Knock yourself out and make a few ;)
Ziemas
Somewhere in the link it states the expected lumens is about 300.... Thats not enough for me at this point.
If I build something it's going to have to eclipse my current systems, as such will not be cheap (currently), I think.
Actually a little further in the thread the guy who said that changed his mind and thought it to be a bit brighter. Either way, the flashlight geeks over at CPF seem to be impressed with it.
Although it isn't ideal for a bike it give a good indication to where LED lighting is going cost and brightness wise. If Fenix decided to enter the bike and SCUBA markets they could own them rather quickly with their low cost/good quality and brightness lights. Hopefully someone will step up to the plate and prices will drop considerably.
If I build something it's going to have to eclipse my current systems, as such will not be cheap (currently), I think.
Actually a little further in the thread the guy who said that changed his mind and thought it to be a bit brighter. Either way, the flashlight geeks over at CPF seem to be impressed with it.
Although it isn't ideal for a bike it give a good indication to where LED lighting is going cost and brightness wise. If Fenix decided to enter the bike and SCUBA markets they could own them rather quickly with their low cost/good quality and brightness lights. Hopefully someone will step up to the plate and prices will drop considerably.
ViperZ
It says it's $44.97 here. That is still considerably less than the retail of ~ $170 for the 200L. Obviously won't be anywhere near the 600L. But 300L > 200L...
I wasn't impressed with the mounting system that came with the 200L. My battery pack slides all over the top tube with the included 2x velcro straps. The small one and the big one are equally bad. I've accidentally hit the battery pouch once and spilled it all over the road with my new while getting out to sprint :( How hard would've it have been to have something that would securely attach the AA case to your bike?
Batteries and charger - didn't really matter much to me. I picked up a 2500mah AA Energizer nimh's complete with charget at walmart for $27. (Since I got the "weekend" sale version of the light which did not include charger/battery).
For $45, that dealextreme flashlight looks like a steal.
You can use a longer self supplied velcro strap to secure the battery case :)
If a person can't solve that problem themselves, how can you expect to build your whole system from scratch?
I wasn't impressed with the mounting system that came with the 200L. My battery pack slides all over the top tube with the included 2x velcro straps. The small one and the big one are equally bad. I've accidentally hit the battery pouch once and spilled it all over the road with my new while getting out to sprint :( How hard would've it have been to have something that would securely attach the AA case to your bike?
Batteries and charger - didn't really matter much to me. I picked up a 2500mah AA Energizer nimh's complete with charget at walmart for $27. (Since I got the "weekend" sale version of the light which did not include charger/battery).
For $45, that dealextreme flashlight looks like a steal.
You can use a longer self supplied velcro strap to secure the battery case :)
If a person can't solve that problem themselves, how can you expect to build your whole system from scratch?
ViperZ
Actually a little further in the thread the guy who said that changed his mind and thought it to be a bit brighter. Either way, the flashlight geeks over at CPF seem to be impressed with it.
Although it isn't ideal for a bike it give a good indication to where LED lighting is going cost and brightness wise. If Fenix decided to enter the bike and SCUBA markets they could own them rather quickly with their low cost/good quality and brightness lights. Hopefully someone will step up to the plate and prices will drop considerably.
Sure enough, all I wanted to point out is state of the art emitters and drivers in the +600 Lumens class still seem relatively expensive.
A person can no doubt cobble together a LED system that is great to awesome, however cost is still a factor even in DIY as you reach for the higher powered units with variable operating modes, and doesn't look like a science fair project.
Although it isn't ideal for a bike it give a good indication to where LED lighting is going cost and brightness wise. If Fenix decided to enter the bike and SCUBA markets they could own them rather quickly with their low cost/good quality and brightness lights. Hopefully someone will step up to the plate and prices will drop considerably.
Sure enough, all I wanted to point out is state of the art emitters and drivers in the +600 Lumens class still seem relatively expensive.
A person can no doubt cobble together a LED system that is great to awesome, however cost is still a factor even in DIY as you reach for the higher powered units with variable operating modes, and doesn't look like a science fair project.
operator
You can use a longer self supplied velcro strap to secure the battery case :)
If a person can't solve that problem themselves, how can you expect to build your whole system from scratch?
Oh snap. Back handed comment for the win. The problem is not with the length of the strap - it's with the fact that even when tightly strapped, the pack is still able to move around on the top tube.
Why does the consumer have to jury-rig his own solution to something that should've been 100%, "tried and true" (these are your words) out of the box? I think your love for Dinotte is starting to blind you to any criticism they can face.
So after case, batteries, chargers etc, it's more what I got the 200L on sale for...
Knock yourself out and make a few ;)
Seeing as how the 200L on sale did not include battery, chargers and helmet mount for $99USD, I don't think you have a case here.
If a person can't solve that problem themselves, how can you expect to build your whole system from scratch?
Oh snap. Back handed comment for the win. The problem is not with the length of the strap - it's with the fact that even when tightly strapped, the pack is still able to move around on the top tube.
Why does the consumer have to jury-rig his own solution to something that should've been 100%, "tried and true" (these are your words) out of the box? I think your love for Dinotte is starting to blind you to any criticism they can face.
So after case, batteries, chargers etc, it's more what I got the 200L on sale for...
Knock yourself out and make a few ;)
Seeing as how the 200L on sale did not include battery, chargers and helmet mount for $99USD, I don't think you have a case here.
ViperZ
Oh snap. Back handed comment for the win. The problem is not with the length of the strap - it's with the fact that even when tightly strapped, the pack is still able to move around on the top tube.
Why does the consumer have to jury-rig his own solution to something that should've been 100%, "tried and true" (these are your words) out of the box? I think your love for Dinotte is starting to blind you to any criticism they can face.
Are you upset at me with something outside of this thread to make that Dinotte love statement? Sorry Operator, I didn't mean to insult you or backhand you in anyway as you indicate. Really I meant no harm.
I understand the battery bag may not be perfect, however to gripe about it as if it is a real tangible argument in the context of this thread seems off base. All you have to do is strap the supplied Velcro strap around the bag and frame and it's as secure as any other battery bag I have used. Even on the slippery gloss carbon frame it seems secure enough.
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3838/light1gs4.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2563/light2iy0.jpg
Seeing as how the 200L on sale did not include battery, chargers and helmet mount for $99USD, I don't think you have a case here.
You may have a point there, please build one for the same price and if it works well, I'll be in line to build one too, or buy one from you.
Why does the consumer have to jury-rig his own solution to something that should've been 100%, "tried and true" (these are your words) out of the box? I think your love for Dinotte is starting to blind you to any criticism they can face.
Are you upset at me with something outside of this thread to make that Dinotte love statement? Sorry Operator, I didn't mean to insult you or backhand you in anyway as you indicate. Really I meant no harm.
I understand the battery bag may not be perfect, however to gripe about it as if it is a real tangible argument in the context of this thread seems off base. All you have to do is strap the supplied Velcro strap around the bag and frame and it's as secure as any other battery bag I have used. Even on the slippery gloss carbon frame it seems secure enough.
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/3838/light1gs4.jpg
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/2563/light2iy0.jpg
Seeing as how the 200L on sale did not include battery, chargers and helmet mount for $99USD, I don't think you have a case here.
You may have a point there, please build one for the same price and if it works well, I'll be in line to build one too, or buy one from you.
Ziemas
^^^^
It seems like you are arguing apples and oranges ViperZ. Folks keep on mentioning ready made flashlights and you keep on mentioning building something from scratch. As it stands the $45 300-400 lumen flashlight is a lot less expensive than the Dinotte, but of course comes with it's on set of problems. I think what operator is trying to say is that there are better values for the money from a pure lumens standpoint than the Dinotte, and I have to agree with him. Both times I've been ready to buy a Dinotte with a little searching I've been able to find a comparable product for less money. They might be great lights, and I even might buy some one day, but right now they seem a little on the pricey side.
It seems like you are arguing apples and oranges ViperZ. Folks keep on mentioning ready made flashlights and you keep on mentioning building something from scratch. As it stands the $45 300-400 lumen flashlight is a lot less expensive than the Dinotte, but of course comes with it's on set of problems. I think what operator is trying to say is that there are better values for the money from a pure lumens standpoint than the Dinotte, and I have to agree with him. Both times I've been ready to buy a Dinotte with a little searching I've been able to find a comparable product for less money. They might be great lights, and I even might buy some one day, but right now they seem a little on the pricey side.
ViperZ
^^^^
It seems like you are arguing apples and oranges ViperZ. Folks keep on mentioning ready made flashlights and you keep on mentioning building something from scratch. As it stands the $45 300-400 lumen flashlight is a lot less expensive than the Dinotte, but of course comes with it's on set of problems. I think what operator is trying to say is that there are better values for the money from a pure lumens standpoint than the Dinotte, and I have to agree with him. Both times I've been ready to buy a Dinotte with a little searching I've been able to find a comparable product for less money. They might be great lights, and I even might buy some one day, but right now they seem a little on the pricey side.
Really I'm not arguing anything....
All I did was price out a build using parts that would attain +600 lumens, showing a example of a cost break down to the Operator's original question "Where does most of the cost come from in LED systems? I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics? "
In the original system I spec'ed it would seem the Array+Driver, housing and Batteries are all equally the same expense.
All of a sudden people are on me for some unknown reason just because I said the Cree 3-Mode Regulator isn't for me, and it's $28.27 cost may not place it in the same league as the Cree MR11 at $90.
I agree, the 200L isn't the best thing going for it's retail asking price, there is better bang for buck, however it's still a nice little light.
The 600L on the other hand is one of the best bang for bucks going, I was drawing a cost break down comparison to what it may cost to build something similar, using a similar quality scratch build for pricing, showing where the cost are distributed in regards to the original question... That is all.
It seems like you are arguing apples and oranges ViperZ. Folks keep on mentioning ready made flashlights and you keep on mentioning building something from scratch. As it stands the $45 300-400 lumen flashlight is a lot less expensive than the Dinotte, but of course comes with it's on set of problems. I think what operator is trying to say is that there are better values for the money from a pure lumens standpoint than the Dinotte, and I have to agree with him. Both times I've been ready to buy a Dinotte with a little searching I've been able to find a comparable product for less money. They might be great lights, and I even might buy some one day, but right now they seem a little on the pricey side.
Really I'm not arguing anything....
All I did was price out a build using parts that would attain +600 lumens, showing a example of a cost break down to the Operator's original question "Where does most of the cost come from in LED systems? I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics? "
In the original system I spec'ed it would seem the Array+Driver, housing and Batteries are all equally the same expense.
All of a sudden people are on me for some unknown reason just because I said the Cree 3-Mode Regulator isn't for me, and it's $28.27 cost may not place it in the same league as the Cree MR11 at $90.
I agree, the 200L isn't the best thing going for it's retail asking price, there is better bang for buck, however it's still a nice little light.
The 600L on the other hand is one of the best bang for bucks going, I was drawing a cost break down comparison to what it may cost to build something similar, using a similar quality scratch build for pricing, showing where the cost are distributed in regards to the original question... That is all.
Ziemas
^^^
The flashlight ViperZ, the flashlight...... :)
The flashlight ViperZ, the flashlight...... :)
ViperZ
^^^
The flashlight ViperZ, the flashlight...... :)
Got it :) I misunderstood, I thought he was refering to the Cree 3-mode part. Sorry....
However he did say "I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics? "
That can cover more than flashlights
The flashlight ViperZ, the flashlight...... :)
Got it :) I misunderstood, I thought he was refering to the Cree 3-mode part. Sorry....
However he did say "I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics? "
That can cover more than flashlights
znomit
I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100.
The LED itself?
LEDs cost you and I 10$ each for the latest, including worldwide shipping. Last gen a few dollars less. Optics are a buck each from kai if you buy 10.
Lets take a triple cree Q5 setup for 600lm and say wholesale is about $25 then.
The batteries?
Batteries are cheaper than an equivalent halogen system(for same run time, same battery type).
Half the batteries, half the cost. 30$ will get you 4 NiMH AAs and charger. Wholesale 25?
The electronics?
The drivers on DX and kai are around 3$ each. A really good driver from taskled is 30. Lets say 25 wholesale.
Ok, so we have 600lm with an hours run time for 75$.
Cateye make a nice 4aa led light, the el530 for 37$. Its nicely made, has a magnetic switch and supposedly dunk proof, quick release handlebar bracket... Im sure they could design a nice housing and build it all for 25$ since we are already providing the leds and batteries and driver.
So there is your 600lm light. 100$
I am sure the wholesale prices on this stuff will be way less than I have quoted. So there is nothing really expensive parts wise here.
400$ is perhaps a little expensive for a 600lm light. Even with a li-ion battery, 3hrs runtime and super high tech o-ring mount.
BUT... until there are cheap alternatives people will still be buying these, cause not running into things in the dark is worth 400$!
The LED itself?
LEDs cost you and I 10$ each for the latest, including worldwide shipping. Last gen a few dollars less. Optics are a buck each from kai if you buy 10.
Lets take a triple cree Q5 setup for 600lm and say wholesale is about $25 then.
The batteries?
Batteries are cheaper than an equivalent halogen system(for same run time, same battery type).
Half the batteries, half the cost. 30$ will get you 4 NiMH AAs and charger. Wholesale 25?
The electronics?
The drivers on DX and kai are around 3$ each. A really good driver from taskled is 30. Lets say 25 wholesale.
Ok, so we have 600lm with an hours run time for 75$.
Cateye make a nice 4aa led light, the el530 for 37$. Its nicely made, has a magnetic switch and supposedly dunk proof, quick release handlebar bracket... Im sure they could design a nice housing and build it all for 25$ since we are already providing the leds and batteries and driver.
So there is your 600lm light. 100$
I am sure the wholesale prices on this stuff will be way less than I have quoted. So there is nothing really expensive parts wise here.
400$ is perhaps a little expensive for a 600lm light. Even with a li-ion battery, 3hrs runtime and super high tech o-ring mount.
BUT... until there are cheap alternatives people will still be buying these, cause not running into things in the dark is worth 400$!
acroy
I'm talking about the more expensive options in LED >$100. The LED itself? The batteries? The electronics?
The engineering & capital equipment needed for production are the expensive parts.
The componenets are cheap.
The engineering & capital equipment needed for production are the expensive parts.
The componenets are cheap.
mrbubbles
I like to chime in here. My setup puts out the same amount of light as the Dinotte 600L, except that I don't have a strobe option (don't need it when the light is that bright).
My setup cost me $80, that was before the Canadian dollar was on par with American dollars.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p202/bubbles_mr/C.jpg
Total reported lumens by Seoul is 720lm, we all know that's just marketing bs. Realistically, it's probably around 650 if I'm lucky maybe pushing 700.
Runtime is 2.5 hours, up to 60 hours on low with 2650mAH battery. With Li-Ion 7.2V 4000mAH or more, the runtime will be significantly extended.
The good stuff about my setup is I can actually change the beam pattern just by removing the lens and slotting in a different one.
User interface is a lot easier, just a knob to turn and that is it.
The mounting option is very, very good, none of that o-ring crap.
Exact same setup for me today would cost around $60 without the battery.
Cost break-down
- Seoul P4 U-bin $15
- Lens from Kai, $5
- Aluminum, $3
- Fatman driver from Taskled, $27 (cost saving from this can be significant if you manage to find another driver for cheap)
- Potentiometer $2.50
- Power plug $2
- Cube 6AA holder with 9v snap, $1.50
I already have batteries and charger, a 6AA 2AAA NiMH 2500mAH Sanyo package cost $15 from Costco is pretty cheap, and adds just $15 to the whole assembly cost.
There's nothing wrong with people choosing to buy commercial systems, it took me 2-3 hours to build this, and that's not counting the time for gathering the material. For some people, the economics of spending their time to build a system is just not worth it when they can buy a readily made one.
My setup cost me $80, that was before the Canadian dollar was on par with American dollars.
http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p202/bubbles_mr/C.jpg
Total reported lumens by Seoul is 720lm, we all know that's just marketing bs. Realistically, it's probably around 650 if I'm lucky maybe pushing 700.
Runtime is 2.5 hours, up to 60 hours on low with 2650mAH battery. With Li-Ion 7.2V 4000mAH or more, the runtime will be significantly extended.
The good stuff about my setup is I can actually change the beam pattern just by removing the lens and slotting in a different one.
User interface is a lot easier, just a knob to turn and that is it.
The mounting option is very, very good, none of that o-ring crap.
Exact same setup for me today would cost around $60 without the battery.
Cost break-down
- Seoul P4 U-bin $15
- Lens from Kai, $5
- Aluminum, $3
- Fatman driver from Taskled, $27 (cost saving from this can be significant if you manage to find another driver for cheap)
- Potentiometer $2.50
- Power plug $2
- Cube 6AA holder with 9v snap, $1.50
I already have batteries and charger, a 6AA 2AAA NiMH 2500mAH Sanyo package cost $15 from Costco is pretty cheap, and adds just $15 to the whole assembly cost.
There's nothing wrong with people choosing to buy commercial systems, it took me 2-3 hours to build this, and that's not counting the time for gathering the material. For some people, the economics of spending their time to build a system is just not worth it when they can buy a readily made one.
Mr. Fly
I am not sure what this thread is about. Is it a genuine, curious inquiry to how much light parts cost, or a veiled bash at the commercial manufacturers of "boutique" bike lights and their customers? A cursory reading of the two pages thus far indicated to me that it is more of the latter.
I am not sure many of you fully considered the cost of being in business for a small manufacturer like Dinotte. If, as many implied, the analysis for bicycle light cost was so biased towards a healthy profit margin, why don't you consider offering us an alternate, lower-cost solution, that is specially designed for bike use?
One must also consider that more frequently than one would expect, component costs for commercial off-the-shelf products are typically a small fraction of its retail value. Does a US-made custom steel bike really cost $1200 and up, given that the best tube sets are only a couple of hundred dollars? Does a cold-forged name-brand crank really need to cost more than the $5 worth of aluminium it is made of? How many yards of Cordura fabric and commodity nylon parts can one buy for the $80+ charged for a typical messenger bag?
Finally, one should consider whether the premium that was charged over the price of the parts worth the trouble of DIYing. For many, the answer is no as can be seen from the (assumably) profitability of Dinotte and its likes. The value I extracted from my commercial lighting system is high enough for me, that I did not feel the need to critically analyze how much the components cost the manufacturer.
I am not sure many of you fully considered the cost of being in business for a small manufacturer like Dinotte. If, as many implied, the analysis for bicycle light cost was so biased towards a healthy profit margin, why don't you consider offering us an alternate, lower-cost solution, that is specially designed for bike use?
One must also consider that more frequently than one would expect, component costs for commercial off-the-shelf products are typically a small fraction of its retail value. Does a US-made custom steel bike really cost $1200 and up, given that the best tube sets are only a couple of hundred dollars? Does a cold-forged name-brand crank really need to cost more than the $5 worth of aluminium it is made of? How many yards of Cordura fabric and commodity nylon parts can one buy for the $80+ charged for a typical messenger bag?
Finally, one should consider whether the premium that was charged over the price of the parts worth the trouble of DIYing. For many, the answer is no as can be seen from the (assumably) profitability of Dinotte and its likes. The value I extracted from my commercial lighting system is high enough for me, that I did not feel the need to critically analyze how much the components cost the manufacturer.
Ziemas
^^^
I think the point that some, including myself are getting at is that there are more and more low cost options out there which produce massive amounts of light. Sadly none of these are bicycle specific, but the technology is the same and hopefully someone will step up and produce bike specific lights in these lower price points.
I think the point that some, including myself are getting at is that there are more and more low cost options out there which produce massive amounts of light. Sadly none of these are bicycle specific, but the technology is the same and hopefully someone will step up and produce bike specific lights in these lower price points.
znomit
I think we are just waiting for large scale production of cheaper brighter lights.
The problem is they are still botique builders, not large scale mass production runs which reduce overheads per unit to very little. We want toyotas not feraris.
I wonder how many more bikes we will see out at night in 5 years when we can buy a 400lm light for 50$...?
The problem is they are still botique builders, not large scale mass production runs which reduce overheads per unit to very little. We want toyotas not feraris.
I wonder how many more bikes we will see out at night in 5 years when we can buy a 400lm light for 50$...?
operator
I am not sure what this thread is about. Is it a genuine, curious inquiry to how much light parts cost,
Yes. If you've ever read my posts, this is as genuine as any of my questions get.
why don't you consider offering us an alternate, lower-cost solution, that is specially designed for bike use?
That was actually my next question: if someone could offer their plans for their low cost DIY system (free or not). I'm prepared to eat the "opportunity cost" as I have loads of time to spare after work. I don't have the necessary EE background to design circuit boards/pcb's but I can follow instructions for putting together circuits.
Batteries are cheaper than an equivalent halogen system(for same run time, same battery type).
Half the batteries, half the cost. 30$ will get you 4 NiMH AAs and charger. Wholesale 25?
Actually I just went to walmart last night. They were offering 4xAA Nimh's 2500mah + charger for $19.99 canadian. I'm going to guess the wholesale is a bit less. Thanks for the added info.
Are you upset at me with something outside of this thread to make that Dinotte love statement? Sorry Operator, I didn't mean to insult you or backhand you in anyway as you indicate. Really I meant no harm.
Sorry no. I'm just a jackass. You can safely ignore me most of the time - my apologies.
Yes. If you've ever read my posts, this is as genuine as any of my questions get.
why don't you consider offering us an alternate, lower-cost solution, that is specially designed for bike use?
That was actually my next question: if someone could offer their plans for their low cost DIY system (free or not). I'm prepared to eat the "opportunity cost" as I have loads of time to spare after work. I don't have the necessary EE background to design circuit boards/pcb's but I can follow instructions for putting together circuits.
Batteries are cheaper than an equivalent halogen system(for same run time, same battery type).
Half the batteries, half the cost. 30$ will get you 4 NiMH AAs and charger. Wholesale 25?
Actually I just went to walmart last night. They were offering 4xAA Nimh's 2500mah + charger for $19.99 canadian. I'm going to guess the wholesale is a bit less. Thanks for the added info.
Are you upset at me with something outside of this thread to make that Dinotte love statement? Sorry Operator, I didn't mean to insult you or backhand you in anyway as you indicate. Really I meant no harm.
Sorry no. I'm just a jackass. You can safely ignore me most of the time - my apologies.
ViperZ
I am not sure what this thread is about. Is it a genuine, curious inquiry to how much light parts cost, or a veiled bash at the commercial manufacturers of "boutique" bike lights and their customers? A cursory reading of the two pages thus far indicated to me that it is more of the latter.
I am not sure many of you fully considered the cost of being in business for a small manufacturer like Dinotte. If, as many implied, the analysis for bicycle light cost was so biased towards a healthy profit margin, why don't you consider offering us an alternate, lower-cost solution, that is specially designed for bike use?
One must also consider that more frequently than one would expect, component costs for commercial off-the-shelf products are typically a small fraction of its retail value. Does a US-made custom steel bike really cost $1200 and up, given that the best tube sets are only a couple of hundred dollars? Does a cold-forged name-brand crank really need to cost more than the $5 worth of aluminium it is made of? How many yards of Cordura fabric and commodity nylon parts can one buy for the $80+ charged for a typical messenger bag?
Finally, one should consider whether the premium that was charged over the price of the parts worth the trouble of DIYing. For many, the answer is no as can be seen from the (assumably) profitability of Dinotte and its likes. The value I extracted from my commercial lighting system is high enough for me, that I did not feel the need to critically analyze how much the components cost the manufacturer.
Good Post... I'm sure it started off in ernest, however stepped over to the dark side because human nature will dictate that it does :)
I am not sure many of you fully considered the cost of being in business for a small manufacturer like Dinotte. If, as many implied, the analysis for bicycle light cost was so biased towards a healthy profit margin, why don't you consider offering us an alternate, lower-cost solution, that is specially designed for bike use?
One must also consider that more frequently than one would expect, component costs for commercial off-the-shelf products are typically a small fraction of its retail value. Does a US-made custom steel bike really cost $1200 and up, given that the best tube sets are only a couple of hundred dollars? Does a cold-forged name-brand crank really need to cost more than the $5 worth of aluminium it is made of? How many yards of Cordura fabric and commodity nylon parts can one buy for the $80+ charged for a typical messenger bag?
Finally, one should consider whether the premium that was charged over the price of the parts worth the trouble of DIYing. For many, the answer is no as can be seen from the (assumably) profitability of Dinotte and its likes. The value I extracted from my commercial lighting system is high enough for me, that I did not feel the need to critically analyze how much the components cost the manufacturer.
Good Post... I'm sure it started off in ernest, however stepped over to the dark side because human nature will dictate that it does :)
ViperZ
^^^
I think the point that some, including myself are getting at is that there are more and more low cost options out there which produce massive amounts of light. Sadly none of these are bicycle specific, but the technology is the same and hopefully someone will step up and produce bike specific lights in these lower price points.
I think we are just waiting for large scale production of cheaper brighter lights.
The problem is they are still botique builders, not large scale mass production runs which reduce overheads per unit to very little. We want toyotas not feraris.
I wonder how many more bikes we will see out at night in 5 years when we can buy a 400lm light for 50$...?
You would think somebody like Cateye, who has been in the mass production market for a long time would be leading the charge, however even they currently charge a premium for their best offerings (Double & Triple Shots) which aren't really at the top of the class either.
I think the point that some, including myself are getting at is that there are more and more low cost options out there which produce massive amounts of light. Sadly none of these are bicycle specific, but the technology is the same and hopefully someone will step up and produce bike specific lights in these lower price points.
I think we are just waiting for large scale production of cheaper brighter lights.
The problem is they are still botique builders, not large scale mass production runs which reduce overheads per unit to very little. We want toyotas not feraris.
I wonder how many more bikes we will see out at night in 5 years when we can buy a 400lm light for 50$...?
You would think somebody like Cateye, who has been in the mass production market for a long time would be leading the charge, however even they currently charge a premium for their best offerings (Double & Triple Shots) which aren't really at the top of the class either.
ViperZ
Sorry no. I'm just a jackass. You can safely ignore me most of the time - my apologies.
NP, same goes for me :) That was evil VZ that got a hold of the keyboard with reading comprehension problems....
NP, same goes for me :) That was evil VZ that got a hold of the keyboard with reading comprehension problems....
Ziemas
You would think somebody like Cateye, who has been in the mass production market for a long time would be leading the charge, however even they currently charge a premium for their best offerings (Double & Triple Shots) which aren't really at the top of the class either.
True, and it rather makes my point - theFenix LD2 is brighter, has more spill, and better throw that my Cateye DoubleShot and is far cheaper, although it only has half the runtime.
True, and it rather makes my point - theFenix LD2 is brighter, has more spill, and better throw that my Cateye DoubleShot and is far cheaper, although it only has half the runtime.
ViperZ
True, and it rather makes my point - theFenix LD2 is brighter, has more spill, and better throw that my Cateye DoubleShot and is far cheaper, although it only has half the runtime.
There's that catch again... Everything can always be brighter, however at the expense of run time in a constrained design :lol:
I think we need to amend that Bontrager quote for now.
Runtime, bright, cheap...... Pick any two
There's that catch again... Everything can always be brighter, however at the expense of run time in a constrained design :lol:
I think we need to amend that Bontrager quote for now.
Runtime, bright, cheap...... Pick any two
Ziemas
There's that catch again... Everything can always be brighter, however at the expense of run time in a constrained design :lol:
I think we need to amend that Bontrager quote for now.
Runtime, bright, cheap...... Pick any two
Actually the Fenix is a better design than the Cateye, no wires to deal with, and two and a half hours is a decent runtime.
With the improvements in LEDS and batteries in the next year or two things should be quite even in regards to flashlights and specialized bike lights.
I think we need to amend that Bontrager quote for now.
Runtime, bright, cheap...... Pick any two
Actually the Fenix is a better design than the Cateye, no wires to deal with, and two and a half hours is a decent runtime.
With the improvements in LEDS and batteries in the next year or two things should be quite even in regards to flashlights and specialized bike lights.
operator
With the improvements in LEDS and batteries in the next year or two things should be quite even in regards to flashlights and specialized bike lights.
I have a feeling it's going to take more than 2 years for prices to become affordable at the lumens we want.
I have a feeling it's going to take more than 2 years for prices to become affordable at the lumens we want.
ericy
I have a feeling it's going to take more than 2 years for prices to become affordable at the lumens we want.
I expect that the next change we will see is another doubling of the lumens for a given wattage of LED. Price will probably stay about the same though.
I expect that the next change we will see is another doubling of the lumens for a given wattage of LED. Price will probably stay about the same though.
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Common bike forum topics in clue bicycles, cycling, mountain biking,
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cycling jerseys, shorts, socks, shoes and bike equiptment selection.