Going through red lights

[Raffles]

I only go through the ones that are pedestrian crossings when there are no pedestrians currently crossing and when there isn't a car behind me (otherwise I feel guilty). It's not such a long wait, but if there's no one around it's obviously a pointless wait.

Red lights where there is lots of traffic or where they are intended for general road traffic I always stop at except when there are no cars around on any of the streets at the junction. I would just feel bad if I did and because I'd be worried about perpetuating the bad name cyclists have of having no respect for traffic signals. Not just among motorists but also pedestrians.

That said, pedestrians generally don't have a leg to stand on when criticising cyclists because the vast majority have no respect for traffic lights either and often get in my way (when their little man is red), killing my momentum (a major annoyance). Here in Oxford they seem particularly terrible. Pedestrians are a bit like blind cattle crossing a road in my experience and the tourists here seem especially bad.

Anywho, what about you? Do you respect the rules when cycling?

[ken cummings]

I do not let the behavior of pedestrians affect my cycling. On my pre-dawn ride to work I do roll through several stop signs but I always slow to the point where I could make a foot down stop if I see a car for several blocks in any direction. There is only one red light in town that I will go through because in five years it has never tripped for me even when I park on the bike symbol painted over the sensor coils. Again, if I see any cars coming I wait.

On the one dangerous piece of road I use I am as VC as they get.

[San Rensho]

I only go through the ones that are pedestrian crossings when there are no pedestrians currently crossing and when there isn't a car behind me (otherwise I feel guilty). It's not such a long wait, but if there's no one around it's obviously a pointless wait.

Red lights where there is lots of traffic or where they are intended for general road traffic I always stop at except when there are no cars around on any of the streets at the junction. I would just feel bad if I did and because I'd be worried about perpetuating the bad name cyclists have of having no respect for traffic signals. Not just among motorists but also pedestrians.

That said, pedestrians generally don't have a leg to stand on when criticising cyclists because the vast majority have no respect for traffic lights either and often get in my way (when their little man is red), killing my momentum (a major annoyance). Here in Oxford they seem particularly terrible. Pedestrians are a bit like blind cattle crossing a road in my experience and the tourists here seem especially bad.

Anywho, what about you? Do you respect the rules when cycling?

Why do you feel guilty? The vast majority of cars I come across violate the law by speeding, not making complete stops at stop signs or when making right turns on red and in myriad other circumstances.

[AlmostTrick]

I rode my bike through a crosswalk on a "don't walk" signal and got hit by a car. My mistake for sure, but I won't do it again. In the street I'll always wait for the green, unless the light won't change for me. Obviously the main thing is to make sure it's safe to cross, no matter what color the lights are. That being said, I'd say going on green will usually be safer.

[songfta]

Here's the simple truth to the matter: pedestrians always have the right-of-way!

That's the rule of the land in almost every jurisdiction in the United States and elsewhere. Sure, some are daft to step out into actively moving traffic, but as soon as their foot hits the tarmac, they have the right-of-way.

It's that simple.

As far as running red lights is concerned: in a heavily-populated, high traffic area it's just plan daft, irresponsible, and stupid. Sometimes there is traffic you can't see, and there are almost always people watching - pedestrians, drivers, other cyclists, impressionable kids - who get the wrong message when a cyclist blatantly disobeys posted traffic signs. It's not going to cost you a lot of downtime, so think of it as a chance to practice your trackstands, or your starting sprints once the light turns green.

I understand the plight of not tripping the sensor coils, which is a by-product of the lack of conductive metal on many modern bikes. In these cases, if there's no car around but a pedestrian call button, I'll head over and trip the call button. If it's truly deserted and there's no means to trip the light, I'll push the bike through the crosswalk (hobby horse style) to be quasi-legal.

If I'm in a rural area where there's a good sight line with regard to cross traffic, and the light won't change in 60 seconds, and there's absolutely no automobile traffic following me, I will run the light, but will make it very clear that I've checked for oncoming cars in every direction before I go (even using exaggerated movements to illustrate my point).

But the law is the law, and if you ride a bike on the road, you are taking on the responsibilities of using the road in a lawful manner. It's really that simple: the bicycle becomes a vehicle when it's being used on a public road. I've seen too many close calls and incidents where I live cause by cyclists who run lights, stop signs, and engage in other patently stupid and lawless behavior because they believe that the laws don't apply to them (alas, not only to vehicular laws apply, but so do the laws of physics, which put bicycles at a distinct disadvantage compared to cars, trucks, motorcycles, buses, et al).

Just my $0.02 - your mileage may vary.

[Az B]

Here's the simple truth to the matter: pedestrians always have the right-of-way!

That's the rule of the land in almost every jurisdiction in the United States and elsewhere. .

It's not law here or in any place in the US I've ever visited.

http://http://www.peds.org/laws.htm

Here's the gist:

"(d) Except as otherwise provided in this chapter, any pedestrian upon a roadway shall yield the right of way to all vehicles upon the roadway. 40-6-91"

Basically, peds only have the right of way in a crosswalk, marked or unmarked. Peds wandering around on the freeway at 3:00 AM dressed as ninjas have no right of way at all.

Az

[Mago]

My commute takes me through a bunch of red lights, depending on where I work that day (I'm a sub teacher) so I don't run those, as I'm normally in the middle of morning rush. However, I do drift through stop signs but take my turn (I slow down appropriately but never make the complete stop - my antique clips are hard to get in and out of) in the rotation.

[joelpalmer]

I freely admit to running reds. Often it's to get out in front of buses. I saw on one of the 10,000 different bike-friendly cities plans something that included a pre-green for bikes and that's how I ride (without it being built into the traffic system).

[-=£em in Pa=-]

My riding philosophy is to never impugn on anothers forward motion, unreasonably.
Ped or car. Sidewalk or road.
If I am not bothering anyone else I run reds. Right-turn-on-red has evolved into a
no-stop situation for cars so why would I feel guilty for doing the same ?
That is my only descent into the realm of VC-eolotism. Running reds as if I was a car.

[Helmet Head]

The main reasons to not run red lights are:

1) It's a bad habit. Anything you do habitually is bound to become a habit, by definition. Once something is a habit, you're more likely to do it without thinking and without paying attention. Sooner or later you're bound to make a mistake, and proceed in front of a car or truck that you did not notice.

2) Not acting like a driver of a vehicle operating in accordance with the rules of the road makes you less likely to be treated like a driver of a vehicle. If you want them to respect you in accordance to the rules, then you need to show respect for the rules.

Having said that, if there is no one around and it's a rare exception, whatever. But don't make it habitual and don't do if there is anyone else around, even if they don't pose a threat.

[PaulH]

The main reasons to not run red lights are:

1) It's a bad habit. Anything you do habitually is bound to become a habit, by definition. Once something is a habit, you're more likely to do it without thinking and without paying attention. Sooner or later you're bound to make a mistake, and proceed in front of a car or truck that you did not notice.


That's one reason why I feel the right turn on red law should be repealed. It degrades safe habits on the part of all road users. Cagers now routinely run reds when turning right. Cars that run reds are, of course, even more of a danger to cyclists and peds than bikes that run reds, and there are more than enough of both out there.

Paul

[Helmet Head]

That's one reason why I feel the right turn on red law should be repealed. It degrades safe habits on the part of all road users. Cagers now routinely run reds when turning right. Cars that run reds are, of course, even more of a danger to cyclists and peds than bikes that run reds, and there are more than enough of both out there.

Paul
I dunno. I think right-on-red improves traffic flow considerably. There is a light on my commute with a double right turn lane that they made "no right on red" (an exception in CA), and it has been a pain ever since (it's a long right red arrow).

On the downside, the risk to peds and bicyclists, that's very manageable. I never feel threatened by right-on-red runners, but I do watch for them.

Allowing right on red seems like a net benefit to me.

[San Rensho]

I dunno. I think right-on-red improves traffic flow considerably. There is a light on my commute with a double right turn lane that they made "no right on red" (an exception in CA), and it has been a pain ever since (it's a long right red arrow).

On the downside, the risk to peds and bicyclists, that's very manageable. I never feel threatened by right-on-red runners, but I do watch for them.

Allowing right on red seems like a net benefit to me.

So if you think right on red is good, then why not straight through on red as long as you yeild the right of way to everyone? And don't just come back with because its not legal.

Our traffic laws codify the accepted practice that you can "run a red" as long as you look and let others through. I see no functional difference between right on red and going through a red light as long as you yield the right of way to everyone else.

[bmclaughlin807]

I always stop for red lights... that said, if I'm downtown, most of the intersections have a period of time when all the traffic lights are red and the pedestrian crossings are all lit up in green.

IF that's the case, I'll cross in the crosswalk. I was, in fact, stopped for this one time...

Led to a good discussion of the cycling and pedestrian laws around here, and I proved to him that I knew the laws to the letter, and I was, in fact, following them.

In Colorado, bicycles are allowed on the sidewalks and in crosswalks, and are treated as pedestrians when in those areas. There is a law that allows cities to ban bicycles on sidewalks, which they are in Denver... but that law makes no mention at all of banning them from crosswalks as well.

The law USED to state that cyclists had to dismount when entering a crosswalk, but that was repealed a little over two years ago...

So, as long as I'm not riding on the sidewalks, I can cut over to the curb and cross in the crosswalk IF they have a walk signal, and IF I yield right of way in the crosswalks to the pedestrians.

By the time the light turns green for the cars, I'm at LEAST a block ahead of them... much more if the cross traffic got a green light before the road I'm on.

Otherwise the only way I run lights or signs is if there are no pedestrians at the corner, or in the intersection, and I'm not going to be crossing traffic lanes... so, if I'm turning right, or if I'm crossing a T intersection with no road to my right.

[bmclaughlin807]

I dunno. I think right-on-red improves traffic flow considerably. There is a light on my commute with a double right turn lane that they made "no right on red" (an exception in CA), and it has been a pain ever since (it's a long right red arrow).

On the downside, the risk to peds and bicyclists, that's very manageable. I never feel threatened by right-on-red runners, but I do watch for them.

Allowing right on red seems like a net benefit to me.

Right on Red is the worst abused law on the books... drivers very rarely stop before making the turn, and they almost never look for pedestrians... I can't tell you how many times I've seen people nearly hit by someone making a right turn on red without stopping for pedestrians in the crosswalk right in front of them!

I've actually been hit once, myself... just barely hit my back wheel hard enough to have to get it trued.

[maddyfish]

Raffles- do you do the same in your car as on your bike?

[StrangeWill]

Why do you feel guilty? The vast majority of cars I come across violate the law by speeding, not making complete stops at stop signs or when making right turns on red and in myriad other circumstances.

Because he's considerate enough to know that there are many people who don't go around thinking of how many laws they can break because they're inconvenienced? It's amazing how people can feel when they think outside of themselves.

Anyway, I run them when I can't get them to trigger and there is no one around *thumps on road sensor* curse you! If the lights are cycling I'll usually just take a breather, have some water, stretch a little, etc.


Anyway, never had issues with peds walking in front of me... maybe it's because I'm slower and more maneuverable so it's easy to avoid people unless they're RIGHT in front of you... however they seem much more safe challenging me when I'm behind the wheel of 2000lbs of steel... People are strange.

[Raffles]

Raffles- do you do the same in your car as on your bike?
Well, I live in the UK but can't drive here. I drive in Peru (where I have a licence) though, when I go there on holiday. And there, I respect the traffic rules as they are, so no, I don't do the same. But as cyclists go, I believe I adhere more to the rules than most. I was recently fined £30 ($60) for cycling in a pedestrianised street (I was unaware of this), so I'm quite wary of breaking the traffic law now.

Regarding the "turning right on reds" thing, that is a US-only thing it seems. In the UK (and Peru) roads are much narrower and have fewer lanes, thus turning right on a red is illegal and not done. Cyclists here in Oxford do it regularly though.

Why do you feel guilty? The vast majority of cars I come across violate the law by speeding, not making complete stops at stop signs or when making right turns on red and in myriad other circumstances.

Cagers in the UK tend to be quite good drivers I think, possibly because the driving test is said to be rather difficult. In London they tend to be more aggressive, but so are cyclists. And why do I feel guilty? Because the rules are there for all vehicles on the road. Cyclists have no right to flout them just because they are more nimble, smaller, more environmentally friendly or whatever justification may be made. That said, I am a hypocrite because I go through red lights when there is nobody around, but on the whole, I am pretty good in comparison to most cyclists. I just think it's not cool to disregard the law when it's sensible and others are respecting it.

I have to say, pedestrians piss me off way more than cars do. In fact, the only vehicles that annoy me on a fairly regular basis are taxis that pull up and stop right in front of me forcing me either to swerve or stop completely to let traffic pass until there is a gap for me to continue. I feel like keying them.

[BarracksSi]

So if you think right on red is good, then why not straight through on red as long as you yeild the right of way to everyone? And don't just come back with because its not legal.

Right on red is allowed (unless marked otherwise) because the turning car only has to worry about getting into traffic from one direction. This is the same reason why left turns are allowed on red from a one-way street onto another one-way street (again, unless marked otherwise).

I've seen a few intersections where two marked right-turn lanes are given a compromise. The far right lane (the one against the curb) is allowed to turn on red, but the lane inboard must wait for the light. This eliminates the complications that come from a car turning from the inboard lane blocking the view of cars in the curb lane, along with multiple lanes of turning cars trying to fit into gaps in traffic.

Right turn on red is prohibited at times and marked as such with signs. Conditions include poor visibility around the corner, complicated multi-way intersections, and busy times of day (no right turns on red between 7 AM and 7 PM within much of downtown DC, for example; it creates congestion, but there are more pedestrians during the daytime, too).

[CentPARider]

Why do you feel guilty? The vast majority of cars I come across violate the law by speeding, not making complete stops at stop signs or when making right turns on red and in myriad other circumstances.

So that’s justification for him to do it? Don’t worry about it, cars do it all the time?

If cars are doing it all the time, then that’s even more justification for stopping. I see cars that do this too, but in the game of car+bike+peds, car covers bike every time.

[syn0n]

I always stop at reds. Ours are pretty much on timers, not sensors, so usually the wait is no more than 45 seconds or so. If there is absolutely no one around, it's a different story, but I don't want people seeing a cyclist break a bunch of laws because I don't want motorists to have an excuse for thinking I don't belong on the road, and if something happens, I want to be able to say I was obeying the law.

I'll admit that I don't really stop for signs, but I slow to a 3-5mph crawl like motorists do. If there is anyone at the intersection, I do a foot-down stop to communicate that I'm not going to run the sign, as I've seen many motorists and motorcyclists reluctant to make their turns when they have the right of way as they see me approach. They know cyclists are unpredictable. I'd really like that to change.

[ChezJfrey]

Right on Red is the worst abused law on the books... drivers very rarely stop before making the turn, and they almost never look for pedestrians... I can't tell you how many times I've seen people nearly hit by someone making a right turn on red without stopping for pedestrians in the crosswalk right in front of them!

I've actually been hit once, myself... just barely hit my back wheel hard enough to have to get it trued.

I agree that the "right on red" law is frequently and dangerously abused. I run frequently and nearly every urban/suburban run I take, I will have to halt several times when I have the ROW because a vehicle rounds the corner without stopping or sometimes hardly even slowing.

I was even clipped once when a driver did actually stop and look at me. Seemed I caught his attention, so I proceeded, only to have him dart out and nail me - that pissed me off! I yelled for him to stop and come back, but he just tore off anyway. Flippin' coward.

Oh, and on the bike, I always stop at red lights. Hardly any reason not to...stops only add 2-5 minutes to my 45 minute commutes anyway.

[gabdy]

When road biking, I'am god. All other road users must yield to me and I don't have to follow any rules.

[John E]

How many of you walk or jog regularly on the roadway? Try crossing the mouth of a freeway offramp from the recommended-for-pedestrians contraflow right side sometime. Usually there are two right turn lanes and lots of motorists looking left (i.e., away from you) for a break in traffic to support their precious right-on-red maneuver. I do not hesitate to yell, wave my arms, even knock on a front fender -- anything to make sure I am seen, even though I have the right-of-way with my green light. I sometimes resort to crossing behind the first car in line, but I always worry about becoming a double amputee by getting squeezed between the bumpers of the first and second cars. I would favor right red arrows integrated into the traffic signal cycle, except some bozo will probably not know what this rarely-used signal means.

[dobber]

Didn't we just have this argument a couple weeks ago.

[ChezJfrey]

Possibly, but the problem continues unabated :)

So, for a recent example, we'll take my run from work to home just this evening (many incidents unrelated to "right on red," but there is a relevant one. Oh, I'm sure to get flamed for my antics, but whatever...). I run this route twice a week and the scenarios I describe are typical - similar events unfold every time. Here's my experience tonight:

I run with a headlamp and a reflective vest - very visible.

The first mid-block crosswalk I encounter is signed and marked - I step down onto the street to assert myself and the first approaching vehicle doesn't stop. In fact, the driver even swerves toward me slightly as he passes. I kick the side of his car, hard. The following car also shows no signs of slowing, even though I gesture with two outstetched arms. They actually attempt to swerve away from me, so I skip on over and kick their car as it passes.

The next problem doesn't occur for another 5 miles. I'm waiting at an intersection. The light turns green and the crossing signal flares. I look around and things look good...there' even a municipal bus at the adjacent stop line heading straight so I've got a bit of cross-traffic shielding. Suddenly, a vehicle careens from the facing left turn lane, just blasting through a light that has been red for 3 seconds. I leap back toward the sidewalk, out of the way.

One half mile later, I hit another mid-block, signed and marked crosswalk - the approaching car isn't slowing down for me, so I make a nice arc with my arms and let fly with a handful of gravel and leaves (added for visibility) straight up, high in the air toward the crosswalk. If the car stops, the gravel falls harmlessly onto the pavement. But, the fool drives on, so their auto gets pelted with a shower of gravel. Too bad. The following autos stop and let me cross.

Another half mile down the road, I'm at the corner just as the crossing traffic signal turns red and the crossing signals "OK" for me. I notice a vehicle approaching, and as I take a step toward the curb to show I'm crossing, the woman blares her horn at me and carries on through a right turn without even slowing. Really? She blasts the horn at me because I want to cross with an appropriate signal, but she wants to tear through a red light and I'm getting in the way? I have nothing, so I just yell, "F you, b1tch!"

The remaining 5 miles are uneventful. So that's a typical run from dowtown to an outlying suburb. Good people out there just trying real hard...to be little b1tches, I guess :( I certainly hope I didn't irreparably harm the driver/pedestrian relationship of goodwill :rolleyes:

[BarracksSi]

The first mid-block crosswalk I encounter is signed and marked - I step down onto the street to assert myself and the first approaching vehicle doesn't stop. In fact, the driver even swerves toward me slightly as he passes. I kick the side of his car, hard. The following car also shows no signs of slowing, even though I gesture with two outstetched arms. They actually attempt to swerve away from me, so I skip on over and kick their car as it passes.

One half mile later, I hit another mid-block, signed and marked crosswalk - the approaching car isn't slowing down for me, so I make a nice arc with my arms and let fly with a handful of gravel and leaves (added for visibility) straight up, high in the air toward the crosswalk. If the car stops, the gravel falls harmlessly onto the pavement. But, the fool drives on, so their auto gets pelted with a shower of gravel. Too bad. The following autos stop and let me cross.

Did either of those crosswalks have lights? If not, then they're the only events I'd flame you about. ;) I'm not a fan of mid-block, unlighted crosswalks whether I'm a driver, pedestrian, or cyclist mainly because they don't have stoplights. Somebody stepping into the crosswalk is similar to a stoplight skipping the yellow and suddenly turning from green to red -- it's a big "WTF??" moment, and drivers are afraid of slamming their brakes and getting rear-ended (which is a genuine fear, trust me; if it's not the first car that gets hit, it might be the second or third).

Plus, someone stepping into the crosswalk and standing there like a fencepost either has a death wish or is reliving that scene from Rain Man. Wait a few seconds longer for traffic to pass or keep moving to the other side, but don't just stand there and expect a cell phone-chatting, head-getting :D , Big Mac-eating, child-spanking, road-raging motorist to see you (and remember, there's no way to tell what they're doing until it's too late anyway).

If I have to cross where there isn't a light, I only go when traffic is far enough away that there's no chance of getting hit. Even if I'm at a light and it's in my favor, I make sure that I'm not gonna get hit. It's just walking defensively -- treating every driver as if they're deaf, dumb, and blind.

[ChezJfrey]

I don't trust anyone out there, so no, I don't stand in the middle of the road, but I do make it clear that I intend to cross by moving and taking that first step (if there is room out of the path of the auto). In both of the cases tonight, I'm reflective, have a light aimed at the approaching vehicles, and there is plenty of time to react...I'm not going to get upset if the second I arrive at a crossing, there are cars streaming across the walkway. I only get angered when the vehicles that should have plenty of time to see me, react and stop, don't give a damn and just continue on -- this is what happened tonight (like every other time). I've long ago gotten weary of the attitude and disrespect I receive as a pedestrian, so I serve them in kind. Otherwise, these people just walk, or drive, all over me with impunity.

[BarracksSi]

I don't even cut it close enough to make them stop unless there's a red traffic signal overhead. The car(s) at the front of the pack may see me, but the others behind them won't. Those are the ones that aren't expecting brake lights and could either run into the stopping car or swerve around and hit me anyway (after all, they don't see a red stoplight, and as far as they can tell, the first driver may be parking or preparing for a drive-by).

It's just not worth the risk, whether expecting them to stop or, after kicking them or throwing gravel, expecting them to not stop a few yards later and get out with revenge on their minds. I'm just walking (or jogging) -- I'm not going anywhere in a hurry. I have time.