Classic & Vintage - Campagnolo Syncro shifters: yeah or nay?

Quoth Sheldon Brown: "Synchro derailers and shift levers are incompatible with anything else, and the Synchro system worked so poorly that it is not a good idea to try to set the system up on a bike you intend to actually ride." * (http://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_st-z.html#synchro)

Agree? Disagree? If agreed, is the Syncro II version any better? And is there a way to identify the revised version, if there is any real difference in performance?

I'm considering a set of the 8 speed Syncros for a build, using a 7 speed Shimano cassette (because apparently, Campagnolo 8 and Shimano 7 have the same cog spacing).

EDIT: They would be mated to what I believe is an 8 speed "Racing T" rear dérailleur. Not sure if this dérailleur is pre-ergo or not.

ViperZ and 55/Rad are both successfully running some form of Synchro shifters, and I believe a few over here are as well. There's some mod you can do the shifter to help it out.

I am running syncro on one bike, it works reasonably well and you think if a retro grouch ever wanted to run indexing they would use syncro for it's nice defined "chunk" as it shifts. Apparently if you smooth out the teeth in the insert a little it will improve shifting (according to out resident expert avenan). Now the combinations of syncro are mind boggling.

try this:
http://www.tuttocampybici.com/catalogs/syncro_1987.pdf

there are more catalogues at that sight which can be used to figure out what insert you need for what freewheel and dérailleur you have.

However, now that I think of it you might not even have Syncro, I am not sure the syncro system came in 8 speed.

Edit: are they the curved shifters with the built in adjuster as can be seen here:
http://www.tuttocampybici.com/catalogs/1992.pdf? If so these are a whole different ball game.

However, now that I think of it you might not even have Syncro, I am not sure the syncro system came in 8 speed.

Don't have a set, just been watching them on ebay. They come up fairly regularly, including this set (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150182617764&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005), and most I've seen have been labeled 8 speed.

They appear to have blue inserts, which would appear to make them 7 speed according to catalogue you linked to?

I think that nightmare of a chart says it all!

I could be wrong about the 8 speed. That is the 1987 chart afterall, no knowing where my catalogue CD is is really starting to upset me! But those do look like syncro shifters as they have the knurled knob part to switch from friction to indexed. I have a set of later shifters with a 7 speed insert, never really investigated but I got it with a regina syncro-90 freewheel (7s) and 1st gen. mirage derailleur. I put it together and it worked like absolute crap. But the 6 speed set-up on my girlfriend's bike which is all chorus with maillard 700 freewheel works great, of course it is matched properly as per the chart.

Not sure of the vintage you're talking about, but I built up a Tesch 101 back in 1988 with C record/deltas and synchro II shifters.

I personally thought they were junk and would have been happier with friction shifters, but I'm 50 yrs old and your mileage may vary.

they are a challenge, to say the least. You'll never get them shifting perfectly, but if you work at it you can get reasonably close. And just think of the adventure...you never know if the next shift is gonna complete gracefully. The only thing that I can guarantee is that if there's a babe anywhere within earshot, you're gonna grind a pound of gears with as much noise as a bike can make...

you need a bike set up with these shifters, if for no other reason than to remember how good modern shifters work. If you set up a nuovo or a super record, you also need the adjuster barrel that allows you to fine tune the cable tension. That piece was actually part of the upgrade kit to synchro...if you buy a NOS set make sure that the little adjuster barrel is in there.

I built up a time trial bike in '91 with Campy Athena Syncro II 7 speed on the downtube and it worked fine though i heard there were problems with the original Syncro. When I was looking to update the bike and move the shifters to the aero bars I took someone's advice from this forum and used Olympus shifters and suprisingly they worked just fine both indexing and friction. Not bad at all for Campy's lower end stuff.

These here are NOS campy Record 'Syncro 2' 8-speed DT shifters from 1992. They are index only and shift just fine on my 8-speed Record cassette. So far I havent had any problems with them, which doesn't mean problems do not exist with others. FWIW I've heard changing to a 'floating' top jockey pulley on the RR derailleur helped indexing on the Syncro shifters that did have problems.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2359/2048619409_5bbfeae741_o.jpg

My C-Record system is set up with friction, not synchros, so I can't help.

That said. I would like to know if there is a 10 speed indexed DT shifter that will work with Campy - Centaur to be specific. The only one I know of is the DA....and I don't know if it'll work.

55/Rad

I would like to know if there is a 10 speed indexed DT shifter that will work with Campy - Centaur to be specific.

You probably already know about the Record 10 speed barends. Branford's page mentions a conversion kit, but the link doesn't seem to be working. These would end up being the most expensive DT shifters ever, though I'm sure the main units could be had more affordably on ebay.

http://www.branfordbike.com/brake/brk03.html

These here are NOS campy Record 'Syncro 2' 8-speed DT shifters from 1992.

I've considered the version with the cable adjuster as well. So these came in a box labeled "Synchro II"? The 1992 catalogue (http://www.tuttocampybici.com/catalogs/1992.pdf) available on TuttoCampyBici.com doesn't make mention of the 'Synchro' trademark.


And just think of the adventure...you never know if the next shift is gonna complete gracefully. The only thing that I can guarantee is that if there's a babe anywhere within earshot, you're gonna grind a pound of gears with as much noise as a bike can make...

So is that what Wino Ryder has, or is his a different animal?


And just think of the adventure...you never know if the next shift is gonna complete gracefully.

I think I'll leave the adventure for another day, luker. I was hoping for a budget alternative to ergos, but it looks as if a project like this could end up costing more in the long run. It'll have to be friction for the time being. What a foolish thought: Campy on a budget!

you're right - campy on a budget is kind of an oxymoron...my comments above refer to the original, period-correct, 80's version of campy's index shifting. They are not good, so unless you are building a period correct piece, I can't recommend 'em. Campy never really believed in the need; the top drawer C-Record stuff came non-indexing for quite a while.

this thread isn't quite C&V; more like retrogrouches in review, but I happen to like downtube shifters, and I like the thought of all of those cogs in the back. The 8 speed downtube shifters from the '90's work great, like Wino Ryder's setup. The 9 speeds are even better. I have finally found a rear 10speed campy derailleur that I could afford, and so maybe soon I'll be able to say that 10speeds work as well as 9.

Back to your original post - racing triple rear derailleurs are indexing (only, I think... although you can make just about anything work in friction mode...). There are several 8-speed options for campy downtube shifters. I have a bike running a Sachs 8-speed freewheel and campy 8-speed synchro. Works great. Any of the campy 8-speed cassettes will also work.

While we are exploring all of the options: has anyone tried to make a campy 10 setup shift over a shimano 10 cassette, or the other way around? It seems to me that there just isn't enough room left with 10 cogs for the manufacturers to be building in uniqueness...

Back to your original post - racing triple rear derailleurs are indexing (only, I think... although you can make just about anything work in friction mode...). There are several 8-speed options for campy downtube shifters. I have a bike running a Sachs 8-speed freewheel and campy 8-speed synchro. Works great. Any of the campy 8-speed cassettes will also work.

While we are exploring all of the options: has anyone tried to make a campy 10 setup shift over a shimano 10 cassette, or the other way around? It seems to me that there just isn't enough room left with 10 cogs for the manufacturers to be building in uniqueness...

Problem is, I have a Shimano wheelset, so I was hoping to mate the 8 speed indexed Campy levers to a 7 speed Shimano cassette, as per this website: http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=3946

It appears, according to the chart on the website, that you can run a Shimano 10 cassette with a pre-2001 Campy indexing rear derailleur.

My C-Record system is set up with friction, not synchros, so I can't help.

That said. I would like to know if there is a 10 speed indexed DT shifter that will work with Campy - Centaur to be specific. The only one I know of is the DA....and I don't know if it'll work.

55/Rad

The Synchro 2 shifter pictured above uses the Ergo gear from a barcon. So, 10 is possible

Tim

This site seems to have pretty good discussions on everything 7/8-speed. May clear up some issues involving Syncro DT shifters.
http://campyonly.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=2

That said, here's another shot of my 'Syncro 2' shifters so everyone can see how gorgeous they look. (sorry if its a shameless plug, but I cant help it. :D.......they even work good.




http://farm1.static.flickr.com/129/331714848_f182669388.jpg

Wino rider, you're usuing a post c-record, record derailleur with those?

Junk Yard, if campy 8 and shimano 7 have the same spacing then so whould shimano 8 as you can use 8 speed shimano shifters with 7 speed cassettes/freewheels no problem because the spacing is the same.

Wino rider, you're usuing a post c-record, record derailleur with those?

Junk Yard, if campy 8 and shimano 7 have the same spacing then so whould shimano 8 as you can use 8 speed shimano shifters with 7 speed cassettes/freewheels no problem because the spacing is the same.

Are you sure? Shimano 7 is 5mm, Campy 8 is 5mm, Shimano 8 is 4.8mm. Not saying it wouldn't work. I'm planning on using what I think is an 8 speed 'Racing T' rear derailleur, so unless I fiddle with cable positioning, I'm under the impression Shimano shifters won't work due to a different actuation ratio.

Wino Ryder, thanks for the link to the CampyOnly board. Need more time to search. The ShimaNO forum is worth a few laughs.

don't forget us. We need to know the results of your research. ummmm. pizza. All of the kids have left and there's pizza. Not supposed to eat pizza, don't tell...

I have a set of levers here, never used them...

[QUOTE=cyclotoine;5666388]Wino rider, you're usuing a post c-record, record derailleur with those?QUOTE]


Believe it or not, this is all part of my campy conversion on my Tommasini, which came with Shimano '600'.

So far I have converted everything over, but am still using the '600' 8-speed STI rear derailleur. The DT syncro shifters work just fine with that derailleur, shifting onto an 8-speed Record cassette. Believe me, I was expecting trouble with this set-up but it worked great. I dont know. Maybe its because the top pulley on the STI '600' derailleur is more free floating, allowing everything to index correctly.

don't forget us. We need to know the results of your research. ummmm. pizza. All of the kids have left and there's pizza. Not supposed to eat pizza, don't tell...

The results of my research: eye fatigue and hunger...any pizza left?

Syncros were awful, apparently.

Again, Wino Ryder, are you sure those are 'Syncros'? From the catalogues available online (TuttoCampyBici.com and CampyOnly.com), it appears the version with the cable adjuster on the lever was first introduced in '92 (your set), but they had dropped the 'Syncro' moniker by then. In the catalogue, this text appears: "precision indexed shifting (no over-shift)." I'm thinking this is the year they fixed the problems with the Syncros.

I have a set of levers here, never used them...

PM sent.

nah. twice. Wino has the later version. I have no pizza left. The big kids blew through looking for their D&D books and magically, all of the freakin' pizza disappeared. I am not supposed to indulge. I am not supposed to indulge. that was a good thing, I think...

DOMINO'S PERSONAL PIZZA:

Bacon, onions, tomatoes, pepperoni, ground beef, extra cheese, 2x hot peppers. & garlic dip.

c/w can of Coke.

$ 7.85 Cdn


Regards,
J T

[QUOTE=JunkYardBike;5669611]

Again, Wino Ryder, are you sure those are 'Syncros'?



You mean like I may be guessing?...or... I'm really not sure, but I think so?? :D


just kidding........The shifters in my pics are NOS 'Record' Syncro 2, for 8-speed marked on the box with '92. The right shifter came with a small spring loaded cable adjuster (which I thought was pretty cool) along with a small Campagnolo instruction book and set of stainless cables. It was all straight forward and easy to set up, really. Once I got it all set up and adjusted, fine tuning with the small adjuster on the shifter, it shifted very well.

The shifters in my pics are NOS 'Record' Syncro 2, for 8-speed marked on the box with '92. The right shifter came with a small spring loaded cable adjuster (which I thought was pretty cool) along with a small Campagnolo instruction book and set of stainless cables.

Wait, are you absolutely, positively certain someone didn't swap boxes on you? ;)

Hmm, so the cable adjuster wasn't actually on the lever? NOS Syncro 8 speed levers pop up on ebay consistently, but in the photos, I never see the cable adjuster. Of course, I've not asked the sellers if they are somewhere in the box.

Wait, are you absolutely, positively certain someone didn't swap boxes on you? ;)

Hmm, so the cable adjuster wasn't actually on the lever? NOS Syncro 8 speed levers pop up on ebay consistently, but in the photos, I never see the cable adjuster. Of course, I've not asked the sellers if they are somewhere in the box.

The Syncro II used the adjuster and 3 springs on their Ergo gear. The first gen Syncro used 2 springs on it's Ergo gear. They aren't interchangeable as far as I know. The 2nd version with an adjuster can use current 8,9 or 10 sp barcon Ergo gears. That means a set of 10 sp DT shifters is possible. You can use current barcons with a LeTour adaptor as DT shifters also. Actually, when you pull the rubber of the barcons you'll find a beautiful set of shifters underneath.

Tim

The Syncro II used the adjuster and 3 springs on their Ergo gear. The first gen Syncro used 2 springs on it's Ergo gear. They aren't interchangeable as far as I know. The 2nd version with an adjuster can use current 8,9 or 10 sp barcon Ergo gears. That means a set of 10 sp DT shifters is possible. You can use current barcons with a LeTour adaptor as DT shifters also. Actually, when you pull the rubber of the barcons you'll find a beautiful set of shifters underneath.

Tim

Not to sound obtuse, though I'm sure I do: so the Syncro II's were actually fairly functional, or do they exhibit the same overshift problems? According to the Campagnolo's own advertising text (quoted above), the overshift seems to have been resolved on the redesign.

What I mean by the missing cable adjuster: here's a set advertised on ebay as Syncro II, and yet no visible adjuster. Perhaps they were packaged in the box separate from the shifter (though it may be missing in this case):

http://i19.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/c5/50/3283_1_b.JPG

learn from the master of syncro:
http://www.tearsforgears.com/2007/05/last-gasps-of-syncro.html

Syncro I: had little extra lever to shift between friction and indexed
Syncro II: had knurled thingy to switch between friction and indexed
1991: I think the I and II designation was done away with, and we see 8 speed syncro with flat lever and bigger barrel (i.e. no converting syncro I and II to 8 speed), lever is still flat, can still go to friction mode. These must be rare as they only saw one year of production.
1992: curved levers, no more friction mode, little barrel adjuster... still referred to as syncro but unlike syncro I or II.
1995: 3rd spring added.
2001: discontinued

this is how I see it.

Not to sound obtuse, though I'm sure I do: so the Syncro II's were actually fairly functional, or do they exhibit the same overshift problems? According to the Campagnolo's own advertising text (quoted above), the overshift seems to have been resolved on the redesign.

What I mean by the missing cable adjuster: here's a set advertised on ebay as Syncro II, and yet no visible adjuster. Perhaps they were packaged in the box separate from the shifter (though it may be missing in this case):

http://i19.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/c5/50/3283_1_b.JPG

these look like true syncro 2 (barrel size are the same right and left) i.e. 6 and 7 speed only. It's all comeing together now. I have syncro I, syncro II and the 1992-1995 syncros... I should get some more inserts and start having fun with these.

these look like true syncro 2 (barrel size are the same right and left) i.e. 6 and 7 speed only. It's all comeing together now. I have syncro I, syncro II and the 1992-1995 syncros... I should get some more inserts and start having fun with these.


The pictured levers are the 1991, Syncro II, 8 speed compatible. The right barrel is about 33% larger in diameter and about 50% thicker. It's harder to tell in the box, but when you see them on a frame they look totally mismatched (and consequently very ugly)! I can post pics in about a week. They work well, provided you use a rear derailleur specifically designed for Syncro and the Rohloff (or similar) chain with the 8 speed Camapgnolo cassette. However, they are still clunkier and need more adjustment than SIS.

I received a custom Marinoni with Syncro II C-Record in 1991. A very nice bicycle, but it was shelved in short order for a stock 1991 Marinoni frameset with Dura-Ace 7400, which was far superior to the C-Record, both in braking and shifting.

Syncro and attempts to mate it with pre-Syncro derailleurs and freewheels often lead to frustration. There are some combinations that work reasonably well, but nothing pre-1992 works as well as SIS. 1985-1991 were very bleak years for Campagnolo.

learn from the master of syncro:
http://www.tearsforgears.com/2007/05/last-gasps-of-syncro.html

Ah, nice find, and very helpful.


I should get some more inserts and start having fun with these

Spoken like a true Campy affectionado! Personally, I think I'll stick with friction for now, and perhaps upgrade to Ergos later...though it seems seems the early 8 speed ergos had issues as well...:rolleyes:

The pictured levers are the 1991, Syncro II, 8 speed compatible. The right barrel is about 33% larger in diameter and about 50% thicker. It's harder to tell in the box, but when you see them on a frame they look totally mismatched (and consequently very ugly)!

I see that now, thanks T-mar! Maybe that is why the regina 90 7 speed freewheel never worked will with the 1993 mirage/post 1991 syncro 7 speed setup I had...

now that we have cleared things up lets make them confused again.

Was there not a regina syncro 90 and a regina syncro 92 freehweel? Would assuming that regina had to update the freewheels in order to work with the new syncro system in 1991/2 it be a plausible association to make?

[QUOTE=JunkYardBike;5672440]Wait, are you absolutely, positively certain someone didn't swap boxes on you? ;)





"YES..YES...I confess.....It was the UPS man"

(sob).....he swapped boxes with me.....tole me if I told anybody Brown would come after me. My life has been a living hell ever since then, having to run and jump into a ditch every time I saw a UPS truck. LOL :roflmao::roflmao:


The right shifter came with the small spring loaded barrel adjuster already installed. It was not loose in the box. The box says SYNCRO 1 1- 8V, and on each corner is a yellow tag that says "1992 New Product"

The instruction book (the english part) which has an exploded diagram of the shifters and DT shifter boss

SHIFTING LEVERS FOR GEAR - FRONT DERAILLEUR:

1. Preparation of the frame

Clean all traces of paint or chrome off the boss with the
Campagnolo mill code 1185001, or an emory cloth

2. Shifting levers assembly

Proceed to assemble the levers as indicated in the drawings 1 and 2.
For the index shifting of the gear, checkthat the two plates of A bush
are perfectly inserted on the plates of the boss: tighten the wing nut completely.

3. Adjustment of the tension of the rear derailleur shifting cable

The right hand gear lever is supplied with an adjusting screw (C-Drwg 3)
which allows adjustment of the rear gear cable tension during use. Thanks
to this unique feature, any mis-alignment of the rear derailleur with reference
to the freewheel can be corrected: for example after a wheel change this may
be necessary.

The Syncro II used the adjuster and 3 springs on their Ergo gear. The first gen Syncro used 2 springs on it's Ergo gear. They aren't interchangeable as far as I know. The 2nd version with an adjuster can use current 8,9 or 10 sp barcon Ergo gears. That means a set of 10 sp DT shifters is possible. You can use current barcons with a LeTour adaptor as DT shifters also. Actually, when you pull the rubber of the barcons you'll find a beautiful set of shifters underneath.

Tim

i went down this road last year. I have a 10 speed insert, but it doesn't fit in the 8 speed shifter. I actually tried to track down a machinist to build me one that would fit, but failed to interest anyone. well, I didn't try very hard, either. Anyone want to buy about 300 if I can get 'em made?

i went down this road last year. I have a 10 speed insert, but it doesn't fit in the 8 speed shifter. I actually tried to track down a machinist to build me one that would fit, but failed to interest anyone. well, I didn't try very hard, either. Anyone want to buy about 300 if I can get 'em made?

you had the post 1995 shifters with 3 spring set up and it still didn't fit? Someone said above that the 10 speed insert from the barcons fit in the 1995-2001 DT shifters.

OK, anyone know which these are? Will the levers fit the typical Campy frame braze-ons?

OK, anyone know which these are? Will the levers fit the typical Campy frame braze-ons?

Those look like one of the various types of c-record era friction shifters, bolted to old band parts to keep them in one piece? They will fit regular DT braze-ons.

OK, anyone know which these are? Will the levers fit the typical Campy frame braze-ons?

I assume if they have all the internals shown on page 5 of the 1986 catalogue, they may. The presence of the roller bearings would also confirm they are retrofriction.

http://www.tuttocampybici.com/catalogs/re_1986.pdf

I like this copy from the 1986 catalogue, evidencing either Campagnolo's frustration in developing the indexed shifter system, or their reticence regarding the change:

"For those who do not wish to use the shift lever of the champions, it is possible to obtain the Record gear equipped with the Syncro shifter lever."

My C-Record system is set up with friction, not synchros, so I can't help.

That said. I would like to know if there is a 10 speed indexed DT shifter that will work with Campy - Centaur to be specific. The only one I know of is the DA....and I don't know if it'll work.

55/Rad

http://jtekengineering.com/shiftmate.htm
Shiftmate #3 mates Shimano 10sp shifters to Campy rear d./cassette

you had the post 1995 shifters with 3 spring set up and it still didn't fit? Someone said above that the 10 speed insert from the barcons fit in the 1995-2001 DT shifters.

the 10 speed insert is too big, and the widgie on the back doesn't fit into the appropriate widgie place (them's technical engineering terms...) I have a whole collection of campy shifters from the 80's and 90's...couldn't get it to work anywho...

"Those look like one of the various types of c-record era friction shifters, bolted to old band parts to keep them in one piece? They will fit regular DT braze-ons."

Don't know. Clamp is original, came in a sealed Campagnolo bag I opened for only the photo. (Yeap, there's the clamp version on page 4.) I think I've had these close to 20 years.

"I assume if they have all the internals shown on page 5 of the 1986 catalogue, they may. The presence of the roller bearings would also confirm they are retrofriction."

Hmm, I'll study the catalog and take a look at one side. (Yeap, that's what they look like inside.) Clamp seems to be standard Campagnolo-type fitting for inside the lever.

I always thought these to be Campagnolo's answer to the Simplex Retrofriction, as opposed to "indexed".

Here's another set on ebay. That's why I stick to the old stuff, this is all too confusing. What's wrong with a 5 speed freewheel?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-Record-Downtube-Shifters-Campy-Retro-Index_W0QQitemZ200176604529QQihZ010QQcategoryZ36140QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Here's another set on ebay. That's why I stick to the old stuff, this is all too confusing. What's wrong with a 5 speed freewheel?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-Record-Downtube-Shifters-Campy-Retro-Index_W0QQitemZ200176604529QQihZ010QQcategoryZ36140QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

No, those are Syncros...yours are retrofriction. :)

I was reading elsewhere, and Campy was actually being pretty admirable with their Syncro system. They were attempting to make them retro-compatible with rear derailleurs back to the 70s! (your NR stuff, dbakl)

Problem was, the cable pull was too short for effective indexed shifting. I'm sure there were other factors involved, of course, but it was a valiant effort to produce something that was repairable, could be modified, and extended service on 10-15 year old components.

Not sure these (http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-C-Record-Down-Tube-Shifters-Circa-1987_W0QQitemZ270186397552QQihZ017QQcategoryZ58095QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) are exactly the same...and they seem to be missing the fixing bolts.

These (http://cgi.ebay.com/NOS-Campagnolo-80s-Downtube-Shifters_W0QQitemZ300168623560QQihZ020QQcategoryZ56197QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem) are a likely match, as I believe 'Frizione Differenziata' indicates retrofriction, or 'differentiated friction'

And here's (http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-C-Record-Retro-Friction-Downtube-shifters_W0QQitemZ190170764471QQihZ009QQcategoryZ42330QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem) another likely match.

I just noticed. Any mods reading this thrilling thread care to edit the errors in my thread title? :o

Here's another set on ebay. That's why I stick to the old stuff, this is all too confusing. What's wrong with a 5 speed freewheel?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-Record-Downtube-Shifters-Campy-Retro-Index_W0QQitemZ200176604529QQihZ010QQcategoryZ36140QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

these are also post CdA, and the seller is obviously unaware of that.


I was reading elsewhere, and Campy was actually being pretty admirable with their Syncro system. They were attempting to make them retro-compatible with rear derailleurs back to the 70s! (your NR stuff, dbakl)

Problem was, the cable pull was too short for effective indexed shifting. I'm sure there were other factors involved, of course, but it was a valiant effort to produce something that was repairable, could be modified, and extended service on 10-15 year old components.

Not sure these are exactly the same...and they seem to be missing the fixing bolts.

These are a likely match, as I believe 'Frizione Differenziata' indicates retrofriction, or 'differentiated friction'

And here's another likely match.

those all look like the retro friction, I think they might actually be called doppler or something.. I can't believe how much the middle set went for:eek: I have a pristine set myself... I might use them on the Faggin and put my simplex shifters aside with my TA cranks and my sachs new succes RD for that day a long way off down the road when I can build myself a velo orange style randonneur.

As far as adapting to old derailleurs, I think that was mentioned earlier in the thread, you could get a barrel adjuster that fit into nuovo and super record RDs to faciliate this.

As far as adapting to old derailleurs, I think that was mentioned earlier in the thread, you could get a barrel adjuster that fit into nuovo and super record RDs to faciliate this.

Ah, but I meant their entire design was doomed because they went with a shorter pull to accommodate the older rear mechs. The barrel adjuster was probably one of many later 'fixes'. So it was their excellent service that caused them to stumble on indexing.

Here's another set on ebay. That's why I stick to the old stuff, this is all too confusing. What's wrong with a 5 speed freewheel?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Campagnolo-Record-Downtube-Shifters-Campy-Retro-Index_W0QQitemZ200176604529QQihZ010QQcategoryZ36140QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

this is America, dude! more is always, always better.

The retrofrictions from Campy have always astounded me with their resale value; so much that I have never bought a pair. They made a (rare) set from Nuovo/Super record castings...those babies will set you back!