Classic & Vintage - the BEST raleigh three-speed!

okay, now that i have your attention... here's the question- and maybe i should post this in 'commuting'... i love my raleigh three-speeds, but i'm wondering what would be the ultimate three-speed today? i've seen sheloon's competition superbe and am wondering- if you were going to make the ultimate three-speed, what would it be? take an old raleigh and stick new components on her? build up a new frame? i'm thinking that it has to be a upright riding style, a commuter with racks and or baskets etc, lights, chainguard, fenders, internal gears... i'll ever get rid of my raleighs, but i know there are lighter more efficient bikes out there...opinions please?! thanks!

I hope that you'll forgive me for this not being a Raleigh...

Here is my in-progress superlightweight 3 speed. It's a 70's Dawes Galaxy full 531 frame, the wheels are alloy rimmed 27"ers, with a Sturmey Archer AG 3 speed generator hub, and a Brooks saddle. The bars, stem, shifter etc are from an old Viscount, which will also donate a chainguard. All it needs is a BB and a set of cotterless cranks, and I'm good to go. Even the fenders are lightweight plastic items, but with a natty chrome look trim strip. It's gonna be gorgeous, if it ever gets back to the front of my list of bike projects....

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Samuelw72/P4020008.jpg

Like it!
Well done (when it is)!
Always wondered what a lightweight 3 speed would be like.
Could always have a double chain-wheel with it to extend the range.

I always wanted a Galaxy....
Never even ridden one.

Addenda.
Did you get it with the hub already laced into the alloy rims?
Or do it yourself?

I just bought (yesterday) wheel truing jig to try something similar!

I've put thousands of miles on several Raleigh Sports. If I wanted an ultimate version, I would start with an 80's touring frame like a Specialized Expedition, Miyata 1000 or Centurion Pro Tour and build it with some classy alloy crank, North road bars, a Schmid or Shimano generator hub with LED head/tail lights, Super Champion or Rigida alloy rims, Simplex or other classy alloy chaingaurd, a Brooks B72 saddle on an alloy post, SunTour Superbe brake levers & Mafac or Shimano cantilever brakes, Honjo or Berthaud fenders, Tubus racks with a classy bar & saddle bag set....Since I have the Expedidtion, I just may start accumulating some parts for a conversion in 10 years or so. :) Don

[QUOTE=Sammyboy;5665386]I hope that you'll forgive me for this not being a Raleigh...

no problem with it not being a raleigh, maybe the ultimate isn't?! god forbid that i'd actually go with a new frame like a kogswell...maybe though a nice old frame is the answer. i do have an international but i'm setting her up as a short range tourer/randonneuring bike. maybe if i find a second international?!?

Like it!
Well done (when it is)!
Always wondered what a lightweight 3 speed would be like.
Could always have a double chain-wheel with it to extend the range.

I always wanted a Galaxy....
Never even ridden one.

If you think about it, having a double chain-wheel means having a derailleur like chain tensioner too - not a good solution in my view. This Galaxy was rather different to the late 70's/80's ones that became more famous. I got the wheels in their entirety from a Viscount (!) 3 speed that I got for a fiver from the dump. The spokes are a little tired, and I've just bought a truing stand too, so in time, they may get some love. Below is the bike I cannibalised for parts - regular trips to the tip are worth it for the chance of occasionally turning something like this up. I've no doubt I'll end up using the frame for some other project, probably a porteur.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a322/Samuelw72/P3110002.jpg

For years I've thought about building a lightweight with a SA three speed. I like three speeds, but I don't like the clunky frames that are usually equipped with them. I finally got around to building the bike after I stumbled onto a '59 Carlton with a Reynolds 531 frame. I didn't get a fork with it, so I used one from a Raleigh Competition. I had the wheels built on my hubs by a local shop for $168. The rims are Sun CR-18 and the spokes are DT Competition. The front hub is an old Lambert with Japanese cartridge bearings and is incredibly smooth. I haven't calculated what I spent on the bike, but whatever the amount it was worth it to me. It's a wonderful ride!

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/560796524cQRWSB

Some of the shots were taken when I first built the bike as a single speed on fat tubulars. It was fun and very light, but it just wasn't practical for me.

aw, dirt, that thing is sweet! i'd love to find an old carlton and do what you did.

It doesn't have to be a Carlton. Use any lightweight frame you like. It just has to have horizonal dropouts. Carltons had lots of brazed on fittings, even in the fifties. It even had Cyclo shifter bosses. I cut off everything I didn't need. Some people don't like that idea, but I don't care. It's my bike. I think it would look stupid if I left them on.

It was originally going to have a Raleigh Competition frame, but that one turned out to be cracked. That's where I got the fork.

For years I've thought about building a lightweight with a SA three speed. I like three speeds, but I don't like the clunky frames that are usually equipped with them. I finally got around to building the bike after I stumbled onto a '59 Carlton with a Reynolds 531 frame. I didn't get a fork with it, so I used one from a Raleigh Competition. I had the wheels built on my hubs by a local shop for $168. The rims are Sun CR-18 and the spokes are DT Competition. The front hub is an old Lambert with Japanese cartridge bearings and is incredibly smooth. I haven't calculated what I spent on the bike, but whatever the amount it was worth it to me. It's a wonderful ride!

http://good-times.webshots.com/album/560796524cQRWSB

Some of the shots were taken when I first built the bike as a single speed on fat tubulars. It was fun and very light, but it just wasn't practical for me.

Seems to be missing the lockring on the adjustable cup. Might cause problems down the road. (no pun intended)

For me, an ANT Boston Roadster. Nice commuter frame.

Seems to be missing the lockring on the adjustable cup. Might cause problems down the road. (no pun intended)

That's a Miche Primato track cartridge bottom bracket and they don't use lockrings or cups. They use adapter rings like Phil Wood. It allows for an adjustable chainline, although it worked out that the cartridge is centered in this application. The rings are aluminum and the threads are cut so that they fit tightly in the BB shell.

I'm kind of sort of hunting for a late '80's, early 90's Schwinn Traveler.
(waits politely for the laughter to die down).
Think about it, through about 1970 the Traveler was an upright 3 speed - then from the mid 70's through the mid-80's it was a carbon steel frame with what amounts to a touring geometry, but starting in the mid 80's...
Either 4130 straight or True Temper butted main tubes with the classic "sports touring" geometry of the 1980's - long enough to be comfortable, short enough to be responsive. Strong enough to load up for a tour, light enough to go play...
And who would suspect a Traveler? It hasn't much provenance, but it has all the right stuff.

To be fair, a Le Tour or one of the 91 "World Sports" (I think, it's been a while since I surfed TRFindlays pages) also came in chromoly, but I think it would be kind of neat to have a couple of 3 speed Travelers separated by 25-30 years.

It ought to be deceptively quick.

http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1991_2000/1991_25.html

http://www.trfindley.com/flschwinn_1980_1990/1983Ltwt09.html

Dirtdrop's Carlton is very cool. I've done similar retrofitting on 70s lightweight Raleigh road bikes over the years, most of which I've sold, but the pics remain.

Here's a 1971 Raleigh Competition with a Gran Sport paint job, set up as a 3-speed:
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/CompTouristNew1.jpg

The same bike set up as a club racer, now owned by a BF member:
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/CompetitionClub1.jpg

A mid-70s Raleigh International set up as a 4-speed with an SA FW rear hub:
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Intl2.jpg

A 1971 Raleigh Super Course repainted Krylon metallic blue with matching painted fenders (SKS plastic ones). This is set up as a 3-speed:
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/SC3_1.jpg

A 70s fillet-brazed Viscount set up as a 4-speed:
http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/Viscount6.jpg

Neal

I built my Carlton after looking at Neal's site. I'd had the idea for years, but his bikes inspired me to go ahead and do it. Neal contributed the cool vintage steel cable pulley wheel to my bike.

My Raleigh 3-speed.
http://gallery.mac.com/bbattle/100072/100_0441/web.jpg

A set of alloy wheels with new SA hub are on the way. I've also enlisted the assistance of a venerable pack rat down at the LBS; he may have some suitable spindles so I can get rid of the cottered cranks. I figure I can drop 5 pounds off the bike with these upgrades.

I built my Carlton after looking at Neal's site. I'd had the idea for years, but his bikes inspired me to go ahead and do it. Neal contributed the cool vintage steel cable pulley wheel to my bike.
Yes, you're both bad influences!

Was it on this forum or in the folders where they mentioned taking one of the new SRF3 hubs and once it's broken in drilling and tapping it for an oil port. The theory goes that an oil lubed epicyclic hub is less draggy than a greased one.

Don't know, but it's bonus style points.

I am going along with Sammy's build. I have a 1975 (or so) Dawes Galaxy that is getting a similar build, but I have a 4 speed FG hub that is getting used instead of the AG (got to cater to those old knees;)) Other than that it is going to look much like a British built club racer from the 30's and yes I build my own wheels. BTW anybody know where to find a 40 hole 26x1-3/8" alloy rim:(

Aaron:)

Yes, you're both bad influences!

Was it on this forum or in the folders where they mentioned taking one of the new SRF3 hubs and once it's broken in drilling and tapping it for an oil port. The theory goes that an oil lubed epicyclic hub is less draggy than a greased one.

Don't know, but it's bonus style points.

I don't think you read it here. I'm going to look for it in folders. It's an interesting idea. It would be difficult, but not impossible to perform that modification on my built-up wheel. I'm thinking angle drill.

I was looking at a late English-built SA hub at a bike swap. I was surprised to see that it had no oil port.

I don't think you read it here. I'm going to look for it in folders. It's an interesting idea. It would be difficult, but not impossible to perform that modification on my built-up wheel. I'm thinking angle drill...

Found it:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=348873&page=2

It's a thread about a Raleigh 20 with an 8 spd SA hub.

I am going along with Sammy's build. I have a 1975 (or so) Dawes Galaxy that is getting a similar build, but I have a 4 speed FG hub that is getting used instead of the AG (got to cater to those old knees;)) Other than that it is going to look much like a British built club racer from the 30's and yes I build my own wheels. BTW anybody know where to find a 40 hole 26x1-3/8" alloy rim:(

Aaron:)

Aaron, I think you have a slightly better chance of finding an alloy 40-hole EA1/597mm ERD rim. I have Weinmann alloy EA1 rims in 40/32 drilling on a couple of pre-50s English bikes.

Neal

i knew you'd be around sooner or later neal, and now that i've cleaned the drool from the keyboard, all i can say is, "uh, that little blue super course wouldn't be for sale, would it?!"

i knew you'd be around sooner or later neal, and now that i've cleaned the drool from the keyboard, all i can say is, "uh, that little blue super course wouldn't be for sale, would it?!"

Actually, I've sold all of those bikes over the last year or so (mostly in an effort to finance my Kogswell P/R). However, the one conversion I still own is below: a 1971 bronze green Super Course with an SA FW hub built into a 27" wheel.

Neal

http://web.mit.edu/nlerner/Public/Bikes/71SuperCourseNew2.jpg

neal- how dos the kogswell compare to the sports? i mean is it that much better? the extra gears don't mean much to me, three is plenty, but obviously it's a much lighter bike...i just ordered alloy rims for two of my sports to see what difference that makes, and i'm wondering if something like the kogs or even the green super course is like night and day compared to the sports... thanks! v

Vaughn, it's a real apple-and-oranges comparison. The Kogswell is unlike the Sports and unlike the lightweight 3-speed conversions, mainly because of the frame geometry (low trail) and the 650B wheelset (cushy and fast!). I don't think it's overall lighter than some of those conversions I show from all Reynolds 531 frames, but it's designed from the ground up for a certain kind of ride, and in my view certainly delivers that ride. But it's not C&V!

Neal

I thought the Kogswell had MORE than usual trail? To stabilize a front rack?

I thought the Kogswell had MORE than usual trail? To stabilize a front rack?


It depends upon which fork you order with the P/R; there are three to choose from.

If you think about it, having a double chain-wheel means having a derailleur like chain tensioner too - not a good solution in my view.



Had a think about that and what made it seem workable to me was the simple tensioner on the Itera.

It does add one complication, but a double (triple even?) chain-wheel (+ tensioner) is simpler and cleaner than using a rear derailer with a 3 speed.
In theory anyway.

I've yet to try it, but I have thought about it!!

I thought the Kogswell had MORE than usual trail? To stabilize a front rack?

It can have more than usual fork rake, which will translate into shorter trail (and shorter trail is generally more stable for carrying a load on front). A key factor is headtube angle. Fwiw, I went with the middle range fork on my P/R, giving me 40mm of trail (the other options give 25mm and 50mm). The ride is very stable, very cushy, and quite nimble.

For a handy trail calculator, see http://greenspoons.com/cgi-bin/trailulator.

Neal

Had a think about that and what made it seem workable to me was the simple tensioner on the Itera.
Like this.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/IteraRearhub-1.jpg

You've got an Itera??? I've always wanted to ride one of those! How is it? I see how in that case, it could work well, but I like a nice, simple solution - I'd much prefer NOT to have one of those fellas.

"Ultimate" means different thing to different people. A 531 road bike converted to faux "Clubman" makes a lot of sense. But 531 road bikes converted to pseudo roadsters don't work for me. Geometry is wrong for the roadster riding position.

I'm fortunate enough to have a couple of sets of 531 and the tools needed to turn them into proper "Light Roadsters" with 69 degree angles and long chainstays. (Now all I need is time.) The sets I have should produce a 4.3 pound frame in my size. With alloy parts and thermoplastic fenders you should be able to come in 10 pounds under the weight of a Raleigh Sport without giving up any functionality.

High on the list of features would be a secure mount for the prop stand that would keep it from moving and protect the chainstays. Easy to do, but few manufacturers ever have.

Admittedly I have my three speed set up more like a Clubman than a Sports but I still think it would make a great commuter. The frame is an early 1970's Raleigh Competition (Reynolds 531 throughout) with Campy wheels and a 1950's Sturmey Archer Three Speed rear hub. The pics are from right after I bought it so I am have made some cosmetic changes since. All and all it makes for light, great riding bike which I use for my Saturday morning rides as well as grocery runs. It will probable continue to be my only three speed until that mint condition Raleigh Clubman or Record Ace falls into my lap. :)


http://www.picturetrail.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=16522996&uid=8070887

Neal,

That Competition looks very familar. :) I posted pictures of it further down not realizing you had already posted it as part of your collection. I enjoy the bike very much. Thanks again.

Viscount,
What is the story on the Itera? I have never seen one of those before? Year? Do they still make them?

Aaron:)

"Ultimate" means different thing to different people. A 531 road bike converted to faux "Clubman" makes a lot of sense. But 531 road bikes converted to pseudo roadsters don't work for me. Geometry is wrong for the roadster riding position.


I'd love to have them all be Club-type conversions with drop bars, but unfortunately I have a chronic neck condition that makes being on drops a literal pain in the neck. I have to have my bars up above saddle height, and achieving that with upright bars (or flat bars and a upward-angled stem) is usually what I do.

However, having ridden lots of true Raleigh 3-speeds for many years and now having modified a bunch of 531 bikes into lightweight Sports-type bikes, I'd take the latter ride quality every time. The angles aren't as slack, for sure, but the responsiveness you get back is very nice. There's certainly a sweet spot--for instance, I found that late 70s Raleighs with their more "sport" geometry don't do well as upright riders. But the early 70s models were still slack enough to be excellent candidates.

Neal

However, having ridden lots of true Raleigh 3-speeds for many years and now having modified a bunch of 531 bikes into lightweight Sports-type bikes, I'd take the latter ride quality every time.

Neal

This is a big part of the impetus behind the Kogswell P/R: to make a better roadster.

At first (this is around 1986), I wanted to make a light version of an American roadster, like a Schwinn Racer. Later when I became aware of the more sophisticated models, like the older Raleighs, that just fanned the flames. And when I became aware of the porteur bikes, I crossed the Roadster Rubicon, so to speak.

You've got an Itera??? I've always wanted to ride one of those! How is it? I see how in that case, it could work well, but I like a nice, simple solution - I'd much prefer NOT to have one of those fellas.
Yes, me have Itera.
The bars are a bit flexy but you get used to it quickly.
Was such a brilliant idea in the 80s.
Recyclable way before its time.
And just like a 3 speed to ride.
I often get asked when I'm riding it "is it an electric bike?"

Does look like that, but it's a piece of history now.

Viscount,
What is the story on the Itera? I have never seen one of those before? Year? Do they still make them?

Aaron:)

Aaron, the Iteras were made in the 80s, and financed by an enlightened Swedish government grant that enabled the whole process. (Could you imagine it happening anywhere else?)
It didn't succeed financially, but that was more down to the implementers/managers than the idea itself.

It folded on the verge of success, some would say. (Me included)
But it was a brave attempt I think.
Good place to start is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itera_plastic_bicycle

You've got an Itera??? I've always wanted to ride one of those! How is it? I see how in that case, it could work well, but I like a nice, simple solution - I'd much prefer NOT to have one of those fellas.

What about this one then?
Similar one can be used to switch between fixie/SS:

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g58/duktig/Swingarm.jpg

Posted it last night before I found this thread again.
Simpler than a conventional derailer.