This year I've done the biggest (long) (one-day) rides in the country, and I'm looking for something different for next year.

Turns out, there's a rando series just south of me. Starts in January.

But I'm hung up on something Machka said a few years ago. "Cemetaries are a great place to sleep, no one bothers you." I believe it! I'm not doubting the accuracy of the statement, but wondering: Just how strange does it really get out there?

And that's not the only reason. Crashing out on a bench outside a convenience store sounds a bit funny - anyone get harassed for vagrancy? Sleeping in ditches, too - bugs and snakes? Ever get rain while sleeping in a ditch?

All the riders know the good roads, probably with wide shoulders and little traffic. The randonneur seems to ride ANYTHING. The routes I've seen include everything but freeways, because that's what it takes to connect the dots on these long routes! Just how often do you find yourself saying, "this route sucks, I wish I was back on the good roads and not trying to get 200k out there"? In other words, when would you prefer a friendly loop? Hell, I've seen big organized rides with crazy-stupid routing, I can just imagine how hard it is to get a 1200k with no death-roads.

Speak the truth, boys and girls, for maybe I should drink beer and train for RAGBRAI instead

Some, not all, randonneurs have mistaken what started out as a somewhat genteel long distance touring pasttime for a kind of marathon dance rage. Ever read the novel "They Shoot Horses, Don't They?". Randonneuring has become something similar to this for some, not all.

In the not so distant past, I've known randonneurs to do such bizarre things as start a 200k ride knowing full well they would be facing up to 70 mph wind gusts and sandstorm like conditions. Just crazy. I hope I never need to fill my life with that kind of thrill seeking. I think some of these people are looking for some kind of personal gratification not found in their lives as 9-5 cubicle jockeys.

That said, I heartily recommend sleeping in cemeteries.;)

This year ... Speak the truth, boys and girls, for maybe I should drink beer and train for RAGBRAI instead

On brevets up to 400K, sleep isn't an issue. On last year's 600K, I slept for 1/2 an hour with my head down on a table, 1/2 hour on a lawn chair at a control, and 1/2 hour on the grass outside a county courthouse. On 1200K's, you end up sleeping in more unusual places. But you're just way too tired to care. On BMB, I slept in muddy gravel, uphill from a big oak tree on a steeply sloping climb. I had gotten off to walk, because I was too tired and demoralized to keep pedaling and wanted a change, but then I kept nodding off while I was walking, so decided I'd better take a nap. After a fifteen minute snooze, I was good to go.

As to routing, I've never ridden one of those all-good-road rides that you're talking about. Pretty much every ride of a century or more that I've been on has at least some sections of unpleasant roads. At the same time, there've been very few brevets that have more than ten miles of roads with truly unpleasant traffic.

First of all, I can say that sleeping in a cemetery isn't all that weird. Maybe if you're superstitious, but otherwise, what's the big deal? When you get so tired that you're falling asleep on the bike (yes, I've done it) you stop being choosy.

Another great place to catch a quick nap is a post office. There is generally an open area for PO box access all night that provides good protection from the weather. Try to stay out of site and don't be very long.

As far as convenience store benches goes, I have found most store personnel get a kick out of us showing up in the middle of the night having ridden 200+ miles with lots more to go. They go out of their way to accommodate us. It's not like we're getting in anyone's way at 3AM! Of course, we do buy things from them.

Ditches aren't a very good choice except for last resort. You can't get much sleep since any car that drives by will stop to see if you're alive!

As mentioned earlier, anything below 600K usually doesn't require sleep. However, I have found the need to get a few minute nap near the end of 400K routes. And 600K routes are often comprised of two separate loops that start at a motel so, if you have time in the bank, you can get a few hours sleep between loops.

One catch with sleeping in a cemetery is that they are normally closed after dark (in the US at least), so you could wind up jailed for trespassing.

If you are getting very very little sleep while doing stuff, you have to consider the possibility that you're dozing off and not realizing it, too. Not a safe way to drive or do anything else.

But I'm hung up on something Machka said a few years ago. "Cemetaries are a great place to sleep, no one bothers you." I believe it! I'm not doubting the accuracy of the statement, but wondering: Just how strange does it really get out there? as others have said -- it gets stranger the longer you're out there and the more sleep is deprived from you.

I've never slept in a cemetary, but have napped on my fair share of town greens and unfenced meadows. On PBP, I've also slept in the empty clock tower of a church.

Crashing out on a bench outside a convenience store sounds a bit funny - anyone get harassed for vagrancy? I came down with a pretty bad cold during a fleche last year and had to abandon. Sacked out in the vestibule of a gas station for 30 minutes while waiting for a friend to pick me up. Most of the staff, treaded around me, but none of them gave me any issues. When you're in a state where you are consciously choosing to sleep in a convenience store rather than your own bed , it's not the most ideal of circumstances and most folks recognize that and will give you some leeway, unless you're being an active nuisance to them and theirs.

One of the nice things about randonneuring is that it exposes one to many reminders that people are not jerks.

All the riders know the good roads, probably with wide shoulders and little traffic. The randonneur seems to ride ANYTHING. The routes I've seen include everything but freeways, because that's what it takes to connect the dots on these long routes! Just how often do you find yourself saying, "this route sucks, I wish I was back on the good roads and not trying to get 200k out there"? In other words, when would you prefer a friendly loop? Hell, I've seen big organized rides with crazy-stupid routing, I can just imagine how hard it is to get a 1200k with no death-roads. I've been bored with a loop course. For me, the appeal of randonneuring is the exploration, and getting gritty, tiny roads is part of the deal. In New England, our route organizers place a pretty high priority on low traffic, safe routes, but unless the road is under construction and utterly unnavigable, there is no heed paid to road quality. It's assumed that in New England that smooth pavement is more precious than saffron. So we definitely get low traffic, if not wide shoulders or good surface, and I'm fine with that and wouldn't define too many of our routes as "crazy stupid" ... but considering the amount of climbing we have to do, just "crazy" comes to mind frequently

oh, and, skinny, I was a pointless thrillseeker long before I became a 9-5 cubicle jockey ;) if anything, I commute to work through Boston traffic, and that adds a perfectly reasonable amount of adrenaline to the 8am and 6pm shoulders of my corporate veal pen existence.

Cemeteries are great ... they're dead quiet! :D

I've slept on restaurant benches, on floors here there and everywhere, on the cement pad outside a church, on the steps of a church, on the lawn outside a church (churches are also good places to find sleeping quarters), on a sidewalk, in the middle of a parking lot, in a train shelter (like North American bus shelters), in a bus shelter, in ditches, and once in the middle of a gravel road. On the occasion of the gravel road, I noticed a dead snake on the road next to the ditch, and so I didn't want to sleep in the ditch in case there were more snakes, so I slept on the side road instead.

However, I will echo what the others have said ... sleep is only required on rides over 400K. I might, on occasion, take a very brief nap on a 400K or 24-hour race, but most of the time I ride right through on those. Ideally on a 600K, 1000K, or 1200K we arrange somewhere to sleep ... a tent, a motel, our own homes, or something, but it doesn't always work out to do that.

As for roads, speaking as a route planner, we are encouraged to plan the best routes possible. Routes with minimal traffic and decent roads, but lots of challenges. In other words, where possible, we include hills ... but preferably no more hills than would be on the PBP. So the PBP has something like 30,000 ft of climbing over 1200K, therefore a 200K should aim for about 5000 ft of climbing. If we can't incorporate that amount of climbing, we might include roads which we know will be windy. :D

When I planned my SR series, I drove and cycled all over central Alberta. There is hardly a road from the BC/Alberta border to the Alberta/Saskatchewan border acrosss central Alberta I haven't been on. I set out with some ideas from maps, and revised and modified those ideas based on what I saw in terms of: 1) Road condition, 2) Traffic density, and 3) Availability of supplies. In fact, I had my 600K route planned on a map, then re-did the whole thing when I got out there and discovered that there were no supplies to be had for many, many kilometers. I will be modifying my 300K route this year too. When I first mapped and rode it, and then when I rode it officially a bit later, one particular section of road was fine. But I guess we must have had a rough winter because when I rode it again this past year, what shoulder there was had pretty much vanished - all broken off - and the traffic was really heavy. It has become quite a scary section of road.

Planning a full SR series is quite challenging! I take my hat off to anyone who has planned a successful, challenging (but in a good way), and enjoyable set of routes!! There are a number of rules regarding route planning. One is that there cannot be paved shortcuts. If there is a place where a cyclist can take a shortcut, there needs to be a real control or an information control situated in such a place to prevent the cyclist from taking a shortcut. Trust me on this ... that rule is not as easy to adhere to as it sounds!

So when you combine the rules with the nice things to have on a route, we route planners do our best to come up with something that works. But yes, I have been on routes where I strongly wished for better roads! I've been on my own routes muttering to myself, "Who planned this thing!!"

But there's something about the challenge of it all that makes it appealing ... and there is something about the way Randonneuring reduces life down its basics (food, clothing, shelter) that makes it appealing as well. :)

One catch with sleeping in a cemetery is that they are normally closed after dark (in the US at least), so you could wind up jailed for trespassing.


Not a problem as long as you make the next control in time.

Not a problem as long as you make the next control in time.

:lol:

You also must return to the point where you left the route (the cemetery) before continuing on. Wouldn't that make a great story!

Fascinating :D :D :D

Reading this thread, I now realise this crazy style of cyclo-tramping is not reserved to the genuine european randonneurs. Adding to the list, I would suggest bus stops (covered), phone booths, Visa card cash machines near banks, church entrances (in Bretagne where some churches were built with shelter outside the entrance for the passing pilgrim), doorways and sheltered porches. In Switzerland, they also have schlaf um stroh (sleep on straw) advertised on the official Swiss-wide bike map together with Velotels (bike-hotels)

So far, the best I know, however is a tent, a B&B or a hotel room :lol::lol::lol:

I think some of these people are looking for some kind of personal gratification not found in their lives as 9-5 cubicle jockeys.


Why do you imply that there's something wrong with that?

Why do you imply that there's something wrong with that?
Yes. Sleeping in cemeteries ... :D:D What else ? ;)

I think much of the "adventure" nature of Brevet-riding has been reduced due to the Internet and better information being supplied by brevet administrators. Even if I travel to a strange venue - I've already searched out all kinds of info about possible route stops and other info from the Internet or my mapping software.

Back in the '70s and '80s there were a lot more riders "exploring" for services - many times off course...

I think much of the "adventure" nature of Brevet-riding has been reduced due to the Internet and better information being supplied by brevet administrators. Even if I travel to a strange venue - I've already searched out all kinds of info about possible route stops and other info from the Internet or my mapping software.

you could, of course, choose not to do any research before doing any of your rides. The most that I ever look up before going out on a ride are directions and the cue sheet. I don't bother looking up data on services or lodging en route, and the most that our RBAs provide for us is a reference to whether or not a particular control is in an eatery or supermarket.

I think he was trying to reassure me, spokenword - and I need it. What I've gleaned so far -

- even the people who think rando riders have gone too far think sleeping in cemetaries is OK. This does not bode well!
- cemetaries ain't nothing, compared to phone booths, bus stops and under the table at the post office. Except that I might be arrested, and that's OK as long as I get back to the cemetary to start the ride to the next control.
- you ride so far, so long, you fall asleep on the bike. You fall asleep walking.
- those who create these crazy routes are just as nuts as the rest of you. The roads could be horrible and deadly but less traffic is favored - almost to say they're hanging you out there for a long, slow suffering death.
- Going to church is a good idea. This somehow implies the Devil's work!
- mud, hills, people having to step over your snoring body, congregation having to step over your snoring body, this ain't no problem. Ringing church-bells in the steeple of the church ain't no problem "if you're tired enough." The limit is drawn when you're on the side of the road and people think you're dead. But again, cemetaries are OK, somehow. This is confusing!
- in Switzerland, they've created asylums for people like you called schlaf um stroh (sleep on straw).

Did I miss anything?
Am I the only one who thinks this is insane? And I'm a little bit like you, I ride far enough that most people think I'm crazy too - but this is nuts, purely nuts!

(I write this tongue-in-cheek and am seeing quite a humorous angle. Maybe it comes from shaking my head with wonder and amazement)

you could, of course, choose not to do any research before doing any of your rides. The most that I ever look up before going out on a ride are directions and the cue sheet. I don't bother looking up data on services or lodging en route, and the most that our RBAs provide for us is a reference to whether or not a particular control is in an eatery or supermarket.

In Manitoba, it wouldn't matter if you did research before your ride ... what you'll find is that there ain't nuttin' out there. Between about 5 pm and 7 am, you'd be hard pressed to find anything open ... or in some cases anything at all. It takes some strategic planning to ride those events. Now, the last time I rode a 600K there was something if you could make it there before 9 pm and then a 24-hour place about 4 to 6 hours later up the road.

My routes here in Alberta are set up to have something available at least once during the night, but it took a lot of planning and restructuring the route to achieve that. Even so, I'm not 100% happy with my 600K route.

My controls are towns, nothing specific in that town, although I will mention if there is a gas station or something there, and I try to mention what time the gas station closes so riders know whether to bother looking for it or not. Some of my controls are simply information controls about road signs or barns or something out in the middle of nowhere because there simply aren't any towns out there.

you could, of course, choose not to do any research before doing any of your rides. The most that I ever look up before going out on a ride are directions and the cue sheet. I don't bother looking up data on services or lodging en route, and the most that our RBAs provide for us is a reference to whether or not a particular control is in an eatery or supermarket.

That's about all that you really need to know. I mean, it's supposed to be fun and adventurous. As long as I have an accurate cue sheet and know where I can get food and water at any time, I'm good to go.

- those who create these crazy routes are just as nuts as the rest of you. The roads could be horrible and deadly but less traffic is favored - almost to say they're hanging you out there for a long, slow suffering death.

that which doesn't kill you improves your finishing times, my friend.

in all seriousness, as difficult, tough and borderline insane as some of this stuff sounds, a lot of us wouldn't be doing it if we didn't find that a day, week or month later, we've become better people from the experience. We learn to accept and overcome obstacles that seem overwhelming and are less likely to despair in adverse conditions. We make the best of life when it isn't necessarily easy, and we learn to treasure the comforts that we do have.

A few hours of sleep deprivation is a small price for that, I think.

that which doesn't kill you improves your finishing times, my friend.

in all seriousness, as difficult, tough and borderline insane as some of this stuff sounds, a lot of us wouldn't be doing it if we didn't find that a day, week or month later, we've become better people from the experience. We learn to accept and overcome obstacles that seem overwhelming and are less likely to despair in adverse conditions. We make the best of life when it isn't necessarily easy, and we learn to treasure the comforts that we do have.

A few hours of sleep deprivation is a small price for that, I think.

Every easy thing was once a challenge.

If you have a problem with cemeteries, just remember that there was once a time when cemeteries were the only public open space that non-nobility could use in the city. There wasn't such a thing as a city park, so this is where city folk got their recreation. Nothing weird about it. Just try to stay out of the way of the zombies as they mill about.

If you have a problem with cemeteries, just remember that there was once a time when cemeteries were the only public open space that non-nobility could use in the city. There wasn't such a thing as a city park, so this is where city folk got their recreation. Nothing weird about it. Just try to stay out of the way of the zombies as they mill about.
when growing up in the Philippines, part of our Day of the Dead celebrations were picnics in cemetaries with our deceased relatives. because it was such a widespread practice, lots of folks from the surrounding town would also be in attendance, so in some ways it was like a large communal block party.

yes, the environment was a little creepy, but when one is a devout Christian, who only looks at death as the next stage of existence before one passes on to the hereafter, then that tends to take a bit of the edge of the graves that surround you.

And that's not the only reason. Crashing out on a bench outside a convenience store sounds a bit funny - anyone get harassed for vagrancy? Sleeping in ditches, too - bugs and snakes? Ever get rain while sleeping in a ditch?

The Iron Butt Motel is the motorcycle version of this, and is usually a sheltered picnic table at a rest stop. I've slept in many of them in my riding gear, and never been bothered. I did have one keep asking me where the bookstore was one day, and we were way out in the middle of nowhere.

I think much of the "adventure" nature of Brevet-riding has been reduced due to the Internet and better information being supplied by brevet administrators. Even if I travel to a strange venue - I've already searched out all kinds of info about possible route stops and other info from the Internet or my mapping software.

Back in the '70s and '80s there were a lot more riders "exploring" for services - many times off course...

Ah but they have not got the weather under control yet have they? Times when I would have loved to sleep in a nice dry cemetary I have found myself soaked and unable to stop for fear of the chill that ensues after stopping. I have yet to experiment with strange sleeping arrangements though (although if I get to ride my 1200k permanent this year I will find many I am sure).

have you considered www.warmshowers.org

have you considered www.warmshowers.org

For a tour maybe, but not for a randonnee. On a randonnee some of us only get 2-3 hours of sleep, and don't have time to sit and chat with people.

It is a felony in Georgia to be in a cemetary after dark.

A felony, wow, must have troubles with Dr. Frankenstein down there. Seriously, I wonder what happened to make them consider it a felony.
If one is discreet there are actually a number of places a person can get a few hours sleep. Anywhere there is underbrush or vegetation it is not hard to hide a bicycle and a person laying down. No one ever stops to examine the right of ways near highways. I am thinking of take a really light sleeping bag/emergency bivy on a 1200k permanent I made and just sacking out anywhere I feel like.

It is a felony in Georgia to be in a cemetary after dark.

Home of the brave, land of the free....?

Slept like a babie on a sematary in Paris in the '80s. It was the national day selebrations and I was drunk as a skunk. Had been beaten up by some Parisians for speaking English to them and couldn't find my way home, buhu! Remember this trip everytime I hear this tune ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEOZA2k3Plw