hub dynamo lighting systems

[pastafagioli]

I am continuing my research on lighting systems. I would appreciate any feedback regarding
lighting systems with hub dynamos. I plan on riding to work, 29 miles each way. I need a good quality light.

[n4zou]

I've been considering a Pioneer E-generator light system from abs-sports.com . It attaches to the left side of the rear axel and is driven by the spokes. It has all the advantages of a hub dynamo without the added cost of building a new wheel around a dynamo hub.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk//images/products/pioneerdynamohubbig_xl.jpg

[ModoVincere]

I've been considering a Pioneer E-generator light system from abs-sports.com . It attaches to the left side of the rear axel and is driven by the spokes. It has all the advantages of a hub dynamo without the added cost of building a new wheel around a dynamo hub.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk//images/products/pioneerdynamohubbig_xl.jpg

How does it fit in the frame? Do you have to have the rear wheel re-dished or something?

[n4zou]

I've been researching it before purchasing myself. What you do is remove the rear wheel. Using a gage supplied with the kit you set the spoke adaptor to the proper depth so the adaptor will engage the spokes properly. You then remove the outermost axel nut and slip on the hub making sure to properly engage the spoke adaptor with the spokes. Replace the axel nut and double check the spoke adaptor is engaged properly. Reinstall the wheel and attach the wires for the headlight and taillight. There are separate connectors for the headlight and taillight but the connections are common to both in the hub. This allows easy connection to both but you may leave off the taillight so 3-watts is available for the headlight.

I'm waiting until after Christmas to order one. From now till next year all shippers will be overload so packages stand a greater chance of being damaged or lost during this time.

I found a German language page detailing performance of it!
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Beleuchtung/node43.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522pioneer%2Bels-100%2522%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DDNI

This is the translated page. The machine translation is not very good of course. Apparently it's capable of much more than 3-watts. The stock headlight has Zener diodes to prevent over voltage so the bulb is protected from high voltages. From the chart 770mA can be produced at 16.2 Km/h. This would easily drive an LED with an 800mA drive requirement.

[eastvanbike]

Please let us know how it works out. I remember coming across it in the past and was intrigued by it. I just got a Dinotte 200L at the sale and am pleased with it but I would like a dynamo system. The last one I used was a Soubitez bottle generator I had on my Nishiki Olympic in the early 80's!

[bart]

It is delivered with a very bright LED rear light (Spanninga SPX) and a halogen headlight with sensor (JOS EP 95)

The system can not be turned off ; there is a switch to turn off the sensor, so that the lights burn permanently. The headlight has a enervating light distribution like those headlights where the light beam shines through the front reflector.

The contact shoes on the generator for the 2.8mm crimp-connectors are mounted in a rather fickle way, and may cause a short circuit if the right force is applied. The system uses big cone bearings made out of sheet steel tensioned over distance pods and the friction coupler.

We didn't manage to stop a fluttering and a slight grinding between magnet and the magnet ring.

Just the winding assembly weighs 465g (copper, iron poles and sheet metal cover).


In short, I am VERY interested how it works out, but wouldn't like to try myself.

[operator]

I am continuing my research on lighting systems. I would appreciate any feedback regarding
lighting systems with hub dynamos. I plan on riding to work, 29 miles each way. I need a good quality light.

In what conditions? Hub dynamo lights are "to be seen lights".

[derath]

In what conditions? Hub dynamo lights are "to be seen lights".

I would venture to guess there is a whole group of folks over in the LD forum who would disagree.

-D

[n4zou]

I would venture to guess there is a whole group of folks over in the LD forum who would disagree.

-D
+1
My dynamo LED light is much more than a "be seen" light. It is much brighter than 5-watt Halogen lights and rechargeable batteries. The rapid development of exceptionally bright LED's is starting to produce a revolution in dynamo lighting systems. Luxeon had just doubled the light output of its Rebel series of LED's driven at the same 350mA for full rated light output. It's now easy to get 200+ Lux using a Martin LED driver circuit. See this link for details.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=179805
The 6 LED system will easily produce more useable light than a 20-watt halogen flood light due to the poor beam pattern produced by using reflectors designed to illuminate stationary objects, not a highway.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u200/Vankoff/PowerOptions.gif

[ModoVincere]

I've been researching it before purchasing myself. What you do is remove the rear wheel. Using a gage supplied with the kit you set the spoke adaptor to the proper depth so the adaptor will engage the spokes properly. You then remove the outermost axel nut and slip on the hub making sure to properly engage the spoke adaptor with the spokes. Replace the axel nut and double check the spoke adaptor is engaged properly. Reinstall the wheel and attach the wires for the headlight and taillight. There are separate connectors for the headlight and taillight but the connections are common to both in the hub. This allows easy connection to both but you may leave off the taillight so 3-watts is available for the headlight.

I'm waiting until after Christmas to order one. From now till next year all shippers will be overload so packages stand a greater chance of being damaged or lost during this time.

I found a German language page detailing performance of it!
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Beleuchtung/node43.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522pioneer%2Bels-100%2522%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DDNI

This is the translated page. The machine translation is not very good of course. Apparently it's capable of much more than 3-watts. The stock headlight has Zener diodes to prevent over voltage so the bulb is protected from high voltages. From the chart 770mA can be produced at 16.2 Km/h. This would easily drive an LED with an 800mA drive requirement.


So, does this cause the hub to effectively be wider than it was to start with? Does it effect the dish of the wheel? Seems like the frame may need cold setting to handle a wider rear (assuming a steal frame).

[Juha]

The Pioneer certainly seems interesting. Does anyone know how it compares to hub dynamos such as Shimano or SON in efficiency and durability... the SON claims 0,5W loss when switched off (5W loss when switched on).

Most dynamo powered light systems comply with the strict German legislation regarding voltage, wattage and how voltage should vary with riding speed. I even had one German web store refuse to sell me a 3W spare bulb for a dynamo headlight (technically 2,4W is the max for front light, the remaining 0,6W goes to rear). If the Pioneer does not have any built in circuitry that limits its output, even better.

--jh

[n4zou]

So, does this cause the hub to effectively be wider than it was to start with? Does it effect the dish of the wheel? Seems like the frame may need cold setting to handle a wider rear (assuming a steal frame).
It fits without needing to change anything. You just remove the outermost nut on the left side of the axel, slide on the dynamo making sure the spoke drive engages the spokes, replace the axel nut and tighten it. The dynamo fits over the hub between the axel nut and spokes so it will easily fit in the frame and there's no need to dish the wheel.

On another note I've had a few personal e-mails about it.

The good:
The headlight has a sensor so it will automatically turn on the headlight and taillight when it's dark. A manual switch on the headlight allows turning on the headlight and taillight they do not switch off when passing under bright streetlights or just before entering an unlighted tunnel. The headlight is very efficient with a very good beam pattern. The taillight is an LED stand light so it will continue to emit light for approximately 2 minutes after stopping.
It has been accepted and meets very strict German requirements for bicycle lighting ensuring it's a quality product that won't fail for many years of daily use.

The bad:
You will be able to feel the magnets as they pass by the poles at very slow speeds. This is due to the fact there are fewer poles and magnets than high quality hub dynamos. The JoyTec EDH-1 hub suffers from the same effect. Considering the cost differential I could live with this very minor problem.
You get the headlight in the package even if you're not planning on using it. The Taillight is nice and I would use it in addition to my blinkie. I would use the headlight until the bulb blows and replace it with an LED headlight.
It makes noise due to pressure between the magnets and the poles. The magnets must be in close proximity to the poles so spring pressure forces the magnets onto a Teflon bearing pad ensuring a steady and constant power output from the poles. This produces a slight sliding noise. The German translation calls it a sanding noise. Hub dynamos emit no noise, bottom bracket and bottle dynamos emit considerably more noise and damage tires.

[n4zou]

If the Pioneer does not have any built in circuitry that limits its output, even better.

--jh
There are two Zener diodes in the headlight so no modifications to the dynamo are required.Testing shows 770mA output at 16.2 Km/h! Even at 10.3 Km/h it's cranking out 500mA. Above 16.2 Km/h the current starts dropping off a little but for the average rider it's still going to provide ~700mA.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.enhydralutris.de/Fahrrad/Beleuchtung/node43.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522pioneer%2Bels-100%2522%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26hs%3DoQ4

This means you can fully drive a Cree P4 Bin emitter with 130 Lumens output.:D

[ModoVincere]

It fits without needing to change anything. You just remove the outermost nut on the left side of the axel, slide on the dynamo making sure the spoke drive engages the spokes, replace the axel nut and tighten it. The dynamo fits over the hub between the axel nut and spokes so it will easily fit in the frame and there's no need to dish the wheel.

On another note I've had a few personal e-mails about it.

The good:
The headlight has a sensor so it will automatically turn on the headlight and taillight when it's dark. A manual switch on the headlight allows turning on the headlight and taillight they do not switch off when passing under bright streetlights or just before entering an unlighted tunnel. The headlight is very efficient with a very good beam pattern. The taillight is an LED stand light so it will continue to emit light for approximately 2 minutes after stopping.
It has been accepted and meets very strict German requirements for bicycle lighting ensuring it's a quality product that won't fail for many years of daily use.

The bad:
You will be able to feel the magnets as they pass by the poles at very slow speeds. This is due to the fact there are fewer poles and magnets than high quality hub dynamos. The JoyTec EDH-1 hub suffers from the same effect. Considering the cost differential I could live with this very minor problem.
You get the headlight in the package even if you're not planning on using it. The Taillight is nice and I would use it in addition to my blinkie. I would use the headlight until the bulb blows and replace it with an LED headlight.
It makes noise due to pressure between the magnets and the poles. The magnets must be in close proximity to the poles so spring pressure forces the magnets onto a Teflon bearing pad ensuring a steady and constant power output from the poles. This produces a slight sliding noise. The German translation calls it a sanding noise. Hub dynamos emit no noise, bottom bracket and bottle dynamos emit considerably more noise and damage tires.


Thanks for the update...I will have to look into one of these for next year.

[BarracksSi]

I'm visiting my sister in Germany, and we just dropped her bike off at a shop to have a Shimano dynamo hub, new wheel, and front & rear lights (along with some other stuff) installed for her Christmas present. Generator-based systems are pretty standard around here, whether they're in the hub or bottle-style generators (which is what her bike will be upgraded from).

I'm tempted to get something similar for my Bad Boy, too, turning it into a true full-time city bike.

[n4zou]

How does it fit in the frame? Do you have to have the rear wheel re-dished or something?
Pioneer E-generator update.
I found instructions for the system. Here is the link.
http://www.abs-sports.com/abselmi.htm
You'll need to click on the links to see drawings for this page.
This lets you know if it will fit your wheel and have clearance for the stay.

Now the bad news. The Pioneer E-generator is an alias for the Pioneer Spanninga system. I guess the German word would confuse English speaking people so it got a name change. The lights used with the system are very good as is required by the German government. There is not an issue with the quality of the generator. The problem is drag with the lights turned off. There is no way to disengage the generator eliminating all drag as would be the case with a bottle dynamo. The drag reduction with lights turned off is only very slightly less than drag with lights on! You might as well ride around with the lights burning all the time. If it used an LED in the headlight thats exactly what I would do. Considering it uses a halogen bulb I would turn it off when not required just to extend it's use.
Here is a link to a site where testing was done.
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/dynotest.html
You'll note the Pioneer Spanninga induces much less drag than any of the bottle dynamos and is comparable with hub dynamos with lights on but that drag is there all the time with lights off. That pretty much kills this system for use on my touring and road bikes. I would consider it for use on a commuter where I would do a considerable amount of my commute in the dark.
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/images/high_drag.gif

[ModoVincere]

Well, N4Zou did you buy one of these yet?

[dbg]

I have been using a Shimano InterL on my commuter for several years. When I first built the bike I tested and noticed a big difference in drag with the lights engaged. But this was just from doing hand spinnning tests. For that reason I included a cutoff switch (pictures below). I've since suspected greater effects at higher speeds (coasting down steep hills feels like a "surging" feedback from the dynamo). The above chart suggests this is true. Tomorrow I will try turning lights on and off on the hills and see if I can feel any difference.

[znomit]

I just built a led system with a shimano 3n71 and 3 cree R2 leds.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=186066
Only been on a few rides but the drag is not significant. Not really noticable even at 30kph... should drop around a half a kph based on the 5w light and 50% efficiency, half this again on low(which is still darn bright).
Its around 15-20w halogen equivalent on high.

[n4zou]

Well, N4Zou did you buy one of these yet?

Well, N4Zou did you buy one of these yet?
Considering the amount of miles I do in a year (~3,000) I will not be getting one. I'll continue using my bottle dynamo. Yes there is more drag induced when engaged but to be honest I don't use it all that much at night. Touring mandates a light for those times your running late trying to make the next stop after dark. I also recharge my Palm TIX PDA and a Bluetooth GPS unit I use with the Palm but it only takes about 2 hours of riding to recharge both units from the dynamo. The Palm will operate 4 hours on that charge and the GPS unit will go 20 hours. The Pioneer generator would be inducing drag all the time as would the hub dynamos to a slightly less extent. The only hub dynamo I would now consider is the Schmidt but that's way more than I want to invest. Originally I thought the Pioneer would be a good option from reading reviews until I found the review of it compared to other dynamo systems for the use I would use it for. If I were using it for commuting and doing a lot of riding at night I would purchase and use it on a commuter bike but for touring, no way. I've built a new dynamo circuit for my touring bike for use with the bottle dynamo. It will also work for hub dynamo systems as well. It includes A USB connector for recharging the PDA and GPS units. The batteries are used to regulate voltage and current for the LED lights or USB devices plugged into the USB connector. Note: the capacitor across the 1-watt LED in the headlight is not required when the batteries are in the circuit. I included it in the event the batteries were damaged or lost as the capacitor would allow the headlight LED to be operated from the dynamo and bridge rectifier without the batteries in the circuit.
http://i143.photobucket.com/albums/r154/n4zou/all-standlightUSB-1.jpg