Living Car Free - Do we owe anything to the future?

There's been an interesting discussion (http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/09/what-does-the-present-owe-the-future/) on Andrew Revkin's blog (http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/) at the N.Y. Times. it was inspired by this letter:


Hello, Mr. Revkin — I very much appreciate your terrific reporting on global climate change issues. And I was curious: Knowing what you know about the pace of change — and how what we’ve already dumped in our atmosphere is going to have an irreversible impact for decades to come — what is your personal belief on the issue of what sort of lives we in the first world should live in the here and now?

What I mean is: I get so sad for the state of our planet and the environmental damage we’ve done to it, and I’m actively doing what I can to minimize my “footprint” on the Earth. But then sometimes I think: NOTHING that I do for the remaining decades of my life is going to have even the most infinitesimal impact on reducing the greenhouse effect in my lifetime.

So why bother? I don’t have any children of my own, and never will. In your opinion, does it really just boil down to doing it for the sake of other people’s children and their children? Thank you for your time!

What do you all think?



(Posted November 9, 2007 (http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/11/09/what-does-the-present-owe-the-future/) on DotEarth (http://dotearth.blogs.nytimes.com/), in case the link expires.)

Interesting question Roody. Like the OP on the blog, I am child-free. As far as I can tell that is the overall best thing that I can do for other peoples children.

A neighbor's experience illustrates the power of this. My neighbor in La Quinta was a lovely woman in her nineties. She had no kids of her own. Her sister though had 100 descendents; Children, Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren. Now no matter how my neighbor might litter and drink from styrofoam cups, there is no possible way that she could equal the ecological damage done by her sister's descendents.

My response to being child-free and trying to be Earth friendly, is that I try to live a simple life and preserve things as I can, but I don't get too stressed when I'm not too pure. Everyone, including myself are "other people's children" so I do try to give back to the community. It's my only way to influence things. I suppose that I could just not worry and live it up. But that goes against my grain. Any benefit from doing that is very temporary.

Perhaps ironically, it also drives me as a space activist. In the long view, sustainability requires a human population living off planet, untimately, we need to expand beyond the solar system and even the Milky Way.

My response to being child-free and trying to be Earth friendly, is that I try to live a simple life and preserve things as I can, but I don't get too stressed when I'm not too pure.

I too am child-free, and the above statement strikes a chord with me. I do what I can, and a I'm very conscious of the disposable items that I can avoid, if possible.

And I too am frustrated, when I see people handle their consumer purchases/interactions, in an opposite manner to what I consider diligent and responsible. But then I have to remind myself that my decisions are my decisions, and everyone else has that right as well.

Mother Earth is my home, and I take responsibility for my actions. That is all I can do. It is infectious though. And it can result in a chain reaction. My present actions are merely the results, of previous interactions that I've had with people, whom have shown me why it is important to act with an environmental conscience.:)

Think Globally, Act Locally:)

I try to pollute less because pollution is ugly. By not polluting now, the environment around me is cleaner for me and everyone around me right now. That is my payoff. Burning less gasoline keeps the air cleaner around me and others.

I started working on bettering myself spiritually about eighteen years ago. During that time I have learned that people really do live more than one lifetime. We do come back. Not always immediately but we do return. I recall several different lifetimes on Earth.

Until you actually recall one of your past lifetimes and experience reliving parts of it you will have a hard time believing anyone who tells you such things. The best you will be able to do is believe the testimony of someone you trust. The time between lifetimes is very interesting to experience too.

So save the Earth for YOUR future lifetimes.

I try to pollute less because pollution is ugly. By not polluting now, the environment around me is cleaner for me and everyone around me right now. That is my payoff. Burning less gasoline keeps the air cleaner around me and others.

I started working on bettering myself spiritually about eighteen years ago. During that time I have learned that people really do live more than one lifetime. We do come back. Not always immediately but we do return. I recall several different lifetimes on Earth.

Until you actually recall one of your past lifetimes and experience reliving parts of it you will have a hard time believing anyone who tells you such things. The best you will be able to do is believe the testimony of someone you trust. The time between lifetimes is very interesting to experience too.

So save the Earth for YOUR future lifetimes.

+1,000,000...

I was looking for a way to say that without totally sidetracking the thread. Although I haven't relived any past-life experiences, I know I've been here before.

Well said smallwheels:)

We owe nothing to the future, being that it hasn't happened. But we are responsible for good stewardship. Unfortunately, a concept completely alien to most people.

We owe nothing to the future, being that it hasn't happened. But we are responsible for good stewardship. ................................

That pretty much sums it up and not for god, future generations or fear of punishment in an afterlife but just 'cause.:)

We owe nothing to the future, being that it hasn't happened. But we are responsible for good stewardship. Unfortunately, a concept completely alien to most people.

Agreed! I work for a company that has been around for over 65 years in pretty much the same form. The main reason because it is privately owned and it is owned with a sense of stewardship and forward thinking. If more people would think in terms of the fact we are only here for a short time and need to leave things in a better condition than we found them...

Aaron:)

Interesting question Roody. Like the OP on the blog, I am child-free. As far as I can tell that is the overall best thing that I can do for other peoples children.

Can we get a child-free forum? I'm sure we can relate it to cycling, somehow.

Do we owe anything to the future?

What's the future done for you?

A neighbor's experience illustrates the power of this. My neighbor in La Quinta was a lovely woman in her nineties. She had no kids of her own. Her sister though had 100 descendents; Children, Grandchildren and Great Grandchildren. Now no matter how my neighbor might litter and drink from styrofoam cups, there is no possible way that she could equal the ecological damage done by her sister's descendents.

I do have children and I would greatly appreciate it if their children did not have to deal with the styrofoam cups I might have used in my lifetime. But even if I didn't have children, I would feel the same towards everyone else's children. Maybe it's some deeply-ingrained, genetic response.

Do we owe anything to the future?

What's the future done for you?

So far it's always been there for me.

"We do not inherit the earth from our fathers. We borrow it from our children."

;)

I do have children and I would greatly appreciate it if their children did not have to deal with the styrofoam cups I might have used in my lifetime. But even if I didn't have children, I would feel the same towards everyone else's children. Maybe it's some deeply-ingrained, genetic response.


I don't quite understand what you were saying. What would you feel towards everyone else's children?

So far it's always been there for me.

Just wait. Sooner or later it will let you down when you need it most.

I don't quite understand what you were saying. What would you feel towards everyone else's children?
I would like them to have the a planet available... preferably that little blue one.

Just wait. Sooner or later it will let you down when you need it most.

Well, you see, that's the great thing about the future - it really can't let me down. Either its there (great), or its not - and if there is no future, I won't be around to worry about its absence. Now a BAD future is a problem, but that's what we're trying to avoid with that funny "responsibility" thing we humans are so bad at.

Our present was once our future... and if you remember what we had been doing, say, fifty years ago, you'd be pretty happy that we're doing this well by now.

We've got generations that never really knew smog.

Let's say that you, your parents, your grandparents, and your children all live in one house. that's the only house you have and there are no other houses. It's a big house full of everything you need, but of course it's up to you to look after it and pass it on to your children in a livable state.

How would you feel if your parents treated the house with total disrespect? what if every time they argued they got into physical fights that caused structural damage to the house and rendered some rooms too dangerous for human habitation? what if they dumped their garbage in such a careless way that it contaminated the plumbing and the water out of some of the faucets was too polluted to drink? What if their lifestyle choices damaged the a/c and the refrigerator so that you couldn't be sure that the food was going to be OK to eat? - and what's worse they're aware of the consequences of their actions but refused to change their ways? would you feel entitled to criticise them? would you feel entitled to speak out and ask them to start behaving responsibly? I sure would.

This planet is our house, it's the only one we have, it's the only one our children will have. Do we want us and our future generations to live in a comfortable house that's structurally sound? that has good plumbing delivering fresh, clean water? a well stocked kitchen full of wholesome nutritious food?

It's up to all of us to do the maintenance on the house, to clean up after ourselves or better yet - not make a mess in the first place. We're all in this together, unfortunately some people just don't get it and won't get it untill the house burns down, but it'll be too late then.

I don't quite understand what you were saying. What would you feel towards everyone else's children?

Since I've had my own children, I've found myself to be more protective of all children, not just my own. I can't really explain it, so it must be a hormone-induced altruism of some kind (but what do I know).

Since I've had my own children, I've found myself to be more protective of all children, not just my own. I can't really explain it, so it must be a hormone-induced altruism of some kind (but what do I know).

It just means you're a decent human being.

I like to think that, by being carfree (along with other measures), I'm "making a difference" in the future of the planet. But in fact, the difference I'm making is so small that it really isn't a difference. If there are 120 million cars in the USA alone, what's the point of one less car?

Why should I bother?

I like to think that, by being carfree (along with other measures), I'm "making a difference" in the future of the planet. But in fact, the difference I'm making is so small that it really isn't a difference. If there are 120 million cars in the USA alone, what's the point of one less car?

Why should I bother?

Whenever I start thinking that way, I remind myself that there are probably millions of people who are thinking the same thing: "What's the point, since I'm only one person?"

Taken together, those are a lot of "just one person"s.

...the difference I'm making is so small...Why should I bother?
Because in addition to the direct payoff of your efforts, you are making it a little bit easier for the next person to go car free.

the difference I'm making is so small that it really isn't a difference. If there are 120 million cars in the USA alone, what's the point of one less car?

Why should I bother?

they reckon that out there, somewhere, amongst the amazon rainforest, there is a tree

if this tree was to be cut down, the whole interconnected eco-system would collapse

on the other hand

there is a person on this planet (it might even be YOU!)

and when they 'wake up' and realize they apart of the whole, and that their actions DO make a difference

well when that person wakes up ... we all wake up ?

100th monkey

critical mass of consciousness

just got to beleive in yourself

there is a person on this planet (it might even be YOU!)

and when they 'wake up' and realize they apart of the whole, and that their actions DO make a difference

well when that person wakes up ... we all wake up ?

Great post! Margaret Mead once pointed out that most significant change comes from a very small nucleus of society... a small group that generates ideas and takes action. Ideas themselves once generated take on a life of their own. But don't wait for society to wake... just wake up yourself.

they reckon that out there, somewhere, amongst the amazon rainforest, there is a tree

if this tree was to be cut down, the whole interconnected eco-system would collapse

on the other hand

there is a person on this planet (it might even be YOU!)

and when they 'wake up' and realize they apart of the whole, and that their actions DO make a difference

well when that person wakes up ... we all wake up ?

100th monkey

critical mass of consciousness

just got to beleive in yourself

I think this might be the best reason to stay carfree. If enough people take individual action, eventually there might be a "tipping point" that will have far reaching consequences. But do you think it would do more good to try to swing some collective action? Maybe get into education, persuasion, politics?

In the long view, sustainability requires a human population living off planet, untimately, we need to expand beyond the solar system and even the Milky Way.

+1

when did we loose the capacity to dream?
I talk to my grandad, who went through the space race, and the old coot has it very much figured out.

go lie outside on the grass (or snow....) tonight and look up. billions of system, galaxies, all untapped, unused as far as we know.

And we're so caught up worrying about styrofoam cups on this little, single ball of rock? thinking of it this way, it all seems small minded, narrow view, no vision to me!!:D

fyi, i try to practise "good stewardship". why? cause I consider it my duty to use & enjoy responibly, not abuse.

now i go cycle home.

beers;)

Great post! Margaret Mead once pointed out that most significant change comes from a very small nucleus of society... a small group that generates ideas and takes action. Ideas themselves once generated take on a life of their own. But don't wait for society to wake... just wake up yourself.
The Electric vehicle discussion list guru Lee Hart used to have in his signature a quote or two from Margaret Mead (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/margaret_mead.html) at times.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
Margaret Mead
"What people say, what people do, and what they say they do are entirely different things."
Margaret Mead

+1

when did we loose the capacity to dream?
I talk to my grandad, who went through the space race, and the old coot has it very much figured out.

go lie outside on the grass (or snow....) tonight and look up. billions of system, galaxies, all untapped, unused as far as we know.

And we're so caught up worrying about styrofoam cups on this little, single ball of rock? thinking of it this way, it all seems small minded, narrow view, no vision to me!!:D

fyi, i try to practise "good stewardship". why? cause I consider it my duty to use & enjoy responibly, not abuse.

now i go cycle home.

beers;)

untapped ?

unused ?

our perception shape ours experience of "reality"

lets heal our hearts and minds, and then we can really begin to expand ourselves

i reckon, i do i do ido, that all the problems we perceive in the world today come from our state of mind, especially this underlying ego-centric, anthropocentric world-view that sees human beings at the top of a pyramid or in the center of the universe

I believe that all the expansive magic we see beyond the stars at night has inherent beauty...

as in... its magical unto itself... untapped, unused ...

just like the tropical forests and the deep ocean sea.... its got beauty in its "being"

when we see everything for a purpose to serve us ... our relationship to the whole becomes fragmented and its in that moment we beging to loose touch with ourselves

this is just my infinitely limited perspective on stuff and things

Great post! Margaret Mead once pointed out that most significant change comes from a very small nucleus of society... a small group that generates ideas and takes action. Ideas themselves once generated take on a life of their own. But don't wait for society to wake... just wake up yourself.

as gandhi says "You must BE the change you wish to see in the world"

Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

One of the most powerful experiences on this earth is when we recognize our Destiny in life. When we connect with what our job is here on earth, we become alive in the knowingness of our purpose and what we need to share with the world. Your calling in life comes about from identifying your natural talents and gifts and blending those with what your community or environment is most in need of. Where your passion and the need meet – there you have your calling in life. When you calling link with a cause, you can enroll others who have a similar destiny. Creating a community of like-minded folks who share your vision of what is needed in the world can be one most satisfying journeys. At the root of all this is knowing the direction you are heading and then making commitments to move you further on that journey. Knowing your destination (your Destiny) is gives movement towards it. Today, think about your purpose here on earth. What is your Destiny and Legacy for this world?

Perhaps ironically, it also drives me as a space activist. In the long view, sustainability requires a human population living off planet, untimately, we need to expand beyond the solar system and even the Milky Way.

This is true, which is why I'm also interested in seeing our species colonize other planets. However, there are so many obstacles to overcome in order to do so that we need to ensure our survival on this planet for a very long time in order to have the time to develop the requisite technology.

Think about it. We have never even seen another planet capable of supporting life as we know it, so we need to find one. Then we need to get there. Given that we are quite sure that it is impossible to travel faster than light - which is far too slow to travel around the galaxy in human lifetimes anyway - we need to develop technology to fold space. I think this is a little ways off yet. We also need to figure out how to pass through such a "wormhole" intact.

Given that, taken as a whole, our species is not living sustainably, it follows that our species needs to change if it is going to continue to exist. Since it'll probably take hundreds or thousands of years for us to figure out how to expand to other planets, and at our current rate the planet will be screwed long before then, we need to be ecologically-minded to be technologically-minded. Know what I mean?

Okay, but what about Fermi's Paradox? It should take only a few million years for a sufficiently advanced civilization to colonize the galaxy. But since the galaxy is already billions of years old, why don't we see a galaxy already full of alien civilizations?

My worthless opinion is that intelligent spacefaring species probably exhaust their planetary resources fairly quickly. Then it's back to living off sunbeams for a long, long time.

Even if we found a nice fresh Earth to live on, it would take only about a thousand years for us to overpopulate it and exhaust its resources.

There is von Neumann's loophole in Fermi's paradox. Even if interstellar travel is not possible for macro size beings such as ourselves, it might be possible to colonize the galaxy with microscopic, self replicating machines based perhaps on some advanced molecular nano technology. If that's the case, we'd expect to see ourselves surrounded by incredibly advanced microscopic self replicating machines and their descendants. Where are they?

If all of those people that consume more keep having babies while the simple living/car-free/environmental people stop having babies, where will the "tipping point" come from? If you are one of the living/car-free/environmental people and you instill those values in your children then aren't you doing more for the future than those that choose not to have babies? If it is only the people who feel that they owe nothing to the future, and consume accordingly, having children, then i really do not see any change happening.

re: Fermi's Paradox:
It could well be that no other planet has been able to support intelligent life, which is why we haven't seen any alien civilizations. Yes, I know there are trillions of planets out there, but there is likely a one in several trillion chance that any given solar system will have a planet as supportive of life as Earth.

A planet on which intelligent life as we know it could evolve requires:
1) At least one large planet (in our case, Jupiter) further from its sun than the planet in question to soak up the majority of large debris coming from outside the solar system;
2) Lots of water;
3) Highly unstable geological conditions (read: lots of heat/electricity etc.) early in the planet's life. Without these, amino acids (proteins) would never spontaneously form;
4) The planet then needs to "settle down" somewhat to allow life to progress beyond micro-organisms and develop intelligence;
5) A narrow temperature range;
6) A stable, oxygenated atmosphere, which also deflects the appropriate amount of solar radiation;
7) Probably a lot of other factors as well (certain amount of gravity, volcanoes, moon(s), etc.)

Next, even if life exists on other planets, it could well be that it has not evolved into a highly intelligent form as we have. Note that I said "intelligent" and not necessarily "wise." Our evolution in itself was a fluke. In the tens of millions of years that large multi-cellular organisms have existed, no single species ever came to dominance as we have, and we've only been around for 2 million of those years. But finally, somewhere, some environmental condition stopped selecting for things like speed and size and strength and started selecting for big freaking brain:body mass ratios. But this was a fluke and, even today, I don't see it anywhere in nature. Were that we were still selected by intelligence!

So we might be alone. Or perhaps no one's figured out how to create wormholes/get something through them intact. Or perhaps the advanced civilizations take a look at our "leaders" and very wisely stay the hell away.

re: von Neumann's loophole:
There are a lot of practical problems with inorganic nano-machines. Organic nano-machines transported by small inorganic vessels/support machines would probably work a lot better. Sound like something you know?

Who knows - maybe life on Earth didn't begin spontaneously. Maybe we are all ultimately of extra-terrestrial origin, and the "seeds" which landed here did so because they detected it as a potentially habitable world. There's really nothing science can do to prove or disprove this hypothesis.

Human nature - and most probably the nature of any intelligent life, as the desire to replicate one's genes is necessary for evolutionary selection - doesn't cause any real urge to colonize the universe with inorganic machines, anyway. However, imagine if we had the technology to spread just a few cells of us across the universe, such that they would grow on other worlds. It'd be like shipping concentrate because mixed orange juice would be too heavy on account of all the water. Think we'd do that?

Oh, and as for what we owe to the future - it will be our home and the home of our children, children's children, etc. We have all been "wired" by evolution to want to ensure our survival and the survival of our children. To not care about the future, then, is to deny our most essential human instincts. Not something I myself do with any great frequency.

my last poop before I die...let that be my legacy.

Oh, and as for what we owe to the future - it will be our home and the home of our children, children's children, etc. We have all been "wired" by evolution to want to ensure our survival and the survival of our children. To not care about the future, then, is to deny our most essential human instincts. Not something I myself do with any great frequency.

I don't believe that humans are hardwired to think that far ahead. At least our history doesn't offer many examples of it. It's reason and study that occasionally allow people to plan into the next generation or two. In other words, we have to go beyond our wiring to deal with the planetary issues that face us now.

This doesn't seem likely in a world where most children are unable to go to school beyond the primary grades, and most so-called education is just the perpetuation of ancient superstitions and prejudices.

I don't believe that humans are hardwired to think that far ahead. At least our history doesn't offer many examples of it. It's reason and study that occasionally allow people to plan into the next generation or two. In other words, we have to go beyond our wiring to deal with the planetary issues that face us now.

Well, I was referring to the very near future, as peak oil/pollution/war etc. are very present issues, at least to me. Of course, many people in society believe that these are things that will only become issues far down the road, and so give them little consideration. And you're right, we unfortunately are not endowed with the instincts to plan 1-2 generations ahead, which we need to do more than ever, especially as it applies to global climate change and diminishing resources.


This doesn't seem likely in a world where most children are unable to go to school beyond the primary grades, and most so-called education is just the perpetuation of ancient superstitions and prejudices.

Yes, ignorant masses can certainly make a royal mess of things. But on the flip side, don't underestimate the ability of small groups of intelligent people to effect major change. It has happened frequently throughout history. There is hope yet :)

I like to think that, by being carfree (along with other measures), I'm "making a difference" in the future of the planet. But in fact, the difference I'm making is so small that it really isn't a difference. If there are 120 million cars in the USA alone, what's the point of one less car?

Why should I bother?

This has to be the $64,000 question. I think it was Emerson who once said that a thought is mirrored throughout the universe. In this case, a reasonable idea might be a shining example to the rest of the population, sort of in the same way we think about the ideas of Gandhi or Tolstoy.

Or maybe I'm just a delusional old fart.

This has to be the $64,000 question. I think it was Emerson who once said that a thought is mirrored throughout the universe. In this case, a reasonable idea might be a shining example to the rest of the population, sort of in the same way we think about the ideas of Gandhi or Tolstoy.


You picked a good example. What is the importance of Thoreau's spending a night in jail to protest war taxes? It accomplished nothing.

But it was the beginning of the civil disobediance movement. Ghandi was inspired by it. And Martin Luther King was inspired by Ghandi. So you never know.

Aren't we supposed to be polluting more so we can hasten the rapture?

Yes, we owe everything to the future children, but we sold them out so "governments" could leave them a boat load of debt, that they incurred in our name, so they could be as wasteful as they've been.

The majority of people on earth are victims of their baser natures. The more "aware" among us take advantage of that to gain social and economic power over us. They make money off our desires for sex, drugs, and video games.(and SUV's, and big wasteful houses, and all the idiotic spending programs, ad infinitum.)

My 20somthing nephews already blame us "Boomers" for all their perceived difficulties in this world. Your children don't stand a chance unless you can instill good Bible based values of right and wrong, morals and ethics, into them, which is hard to do if we don't have them ourselves.

Basically, nothing will change until "we" can yank the printing presses and ability to create money out of thin air, out of your "leaders" hands. I'm sure The New World Order thanks us for providing more war fodder/ worker bee/ tax slaves for it's continuing World Domination Projects.

Pay your taxes. Always get a permit or license. Never question Authority. Submit, consume, obey...and just try and stop us putting more debt on you....it's for your own good.

my last poop before I die...let that be my legacy.

Thank you. I love it.

I don't have children but I'm definately a breeder. My kids will learn all about stewardship -as I have picked up so much of other people trash in my life.

I'm thinking about Jane Jacobs when she felt revolted by talk of overpopulation. I'm not revolted by a persons choice to not have children, that's a personal choice and I wish good will to you. I don't think there is a linear process of lesss children better world. We know that if we just develop our societies better -with regards to livable cities, we can alleviate environmental degradation. No it's not the solution to our problems but it is a major point of concern in my mind.

My kids will learn all about stewardship -as I have picked up so much of other people trash in my life.

I think everybody needs to work in the service industry at some point, whether they're moving boxes, typing on a cash register, carrying food, or picking up trash. One of my big peeves is when I hear someone who's never had dirt under their fingernails refers to "the help".

BarracksSi, I agree. Nothing like a dose of hard labor to sober us all up.

Yes, we owe everything to the future children, but we sold them out so "governments" could leave them a boat load of debt, that they incurred in our name, so they could be as wasteful as they've been.

The boat-load of debt may be incurred in our name and *is* our responsibility. After all, we are the folks who vote for these "governments". We allow these governing parties to continue without fiscal responsibility and often without any vision or plan beyond the immediate future. Is that our fault? I would think so.

BarracksSi, I agree. Nothing like a dose of hard labor to sober us all up.

Well, yeah, but not in a punitive sense.

I've delivered pizzas, worked phones, cleaned toilets, and waxed floors, among other things. It gives an honest perspective on society. I just can't look down upon the stockboy busting his hump at the grocery store or the pizza driver who's risking his car to pay the rent.

Agreed, I didn't mean punitively. I worked many years for people who didn't have the good fortune to be able to use a toilet. Every kind of work seems like a blessing to me. Now that I'm working with a different kind of paper I never forget the other "paper" work.

I do some volunteer work picking up trash -it never ends.

The boat-load of debt may be incurred in our name and *is* our responsibility. After all, we are the folks who vote for these "governments". We allow these governing parties to continue without fiscal responsibility and often without any vision or plan beyond the immediate future. Is that our fault? I would think so.

I agree. But I sure don't know how to disallow them doing it.

It's as though some drunk guy named "government" is out on a binge induced, never ending, spending spree with our stolen credit cards, and we can't get them away from him.

The game of those in power, it would seem, is to rob the public blind before they ever catch on, and as dense as we seem to be about money, credit, and bonds, at their level, this is going to go on till everyone either works at a serf's level for the "government", or is bankrupt.

Unfortunately, the depth of real solutions would far exceed most attention spans, and BF bandwidth, so about all I do is make a few snide comments about it all, when the subject comes up, just to see who else shares my distaste. Pleased to meet you.