Any feedback on an Air Friday?

[Fat Boy]

So that's it. Has anyone ridden an Air Friday and has some opinions on it? There's a bunch of feedback on the Bike Friday website, but you wouldn't guess that they'd put up the 'bad' stuff.

[Foldable Two]

This hardly counts, but I pulled one down off the wall in their showroom and sat on it briefly!

It was pretty springy, but I do weigh 205-207 fully dressed, which is like 15-17 lbs over the limit for a normal "Air" Model, per their website.

[bokes]

I wouldn't buy one without trying it out first. Some people love them, I didn't like it. Instead I got a NWT, which I think is a superb folding bike for loaded touring.

[Fat Boy]

What about it did you not like? Was it the 'springy' thing that F2 mentioned?

[Foldable Two]

Guess I should mention, I also have a NWT. Rides great and fits my 6'3", 200 lb body along with my 6'6" arm span.

Don't need that much technology (as on the Air Friday) for 20-30 mile max rides on streets and bike paths.

(Like the abbreviation of Foldable Two to F2.)

[Fat Boy]

Guess I should mention, I also have a NWT. Rides great and fits my 6'3", 200 lb body along with my 6'6" arm span.


You must look like Grape Ape riding a circus bike! I'm not a big guy at 5'9" and 155#. I seem to fit on pretty much any folder. The 'springy' thing is something I hadn't thought of. I can see it being an issue, similar to a rear suspension that's too soft on a MTB.

The NWT seems to get pretty much rave reviews from everyone. I might be able to get ahold of a used AirFriday, so that's why I'm interested in feedback. Obviously, the beam is meant to flex, but I can see the lower hinge also being a possible flex point which could amplify the problem.

[Foldable Two]

My wife is 5'8" and has a Crusoe - she says she's gotten used to the 20" wheel "look" and doesn't think of them as clown bikes any longer, but yes, I am mostly arms and legs - very ape like for sure.

[makeinu]

Guess I should mention, I also have a NWT. Rides great and fits my 6'3", 200 lb body along with my 6'6" arm span.

Don't need that much technology (as on the Air Friday) for 20-30 mile max rides on streets and bike paths.

(Like the abbreviation of Foldable Two to F2.)

Do the streets have bad potholes? I know that the 4130 steel frames from BF supposedly have enough give for a comfortable ride, but I'm wondering whether an aluminum bike with suspension like a Birdy, a Moulton, or a Reach would be more comfortable. Of course, BF is custom fit, but I still wonder whether their unsuspended frames might be too harsh.

[gazer]

Again, went with the NWT - price and foldability drove that decision (I fold it every day). From what I've seen, the air friday's are closer to the 'packable' side of the foldable spectrum.

As for harshness of ride, the NWT is fine. I'm running Conti Contacts and just dropped the front pressure to 55 lbs (per Jan Heine's recommendation in Bicycle Quarterly). Holy smokes! Comfort factor went way up, and my speed went up too! :beer:

So, the only downside an an Air Friday I really see is the ease of folding, which may not be an issue for you. The flex is obviously intended - that's why it's designed that way. From what I've seen, it just means that you have to have a smooth pedal stroke. Of course, you should have that regardless of the bike, the AF just magnifies issues.

[Foldable Two]

Do the streets have bad potholes?

The Evergreen Hwy, which we use to get to Camas (it's the old Hwy before the FWY was put in) has lots of potholes and multiple layers of pavement spots, but most streets are pretty good and the bike paths are great for the most part.

We do have Thudbuster seat posts but we both have elastomers for the next highest weight setting installed so there is not so much give. They work well. I have one on my Dahon S1, too.

The tire pressure, as gazer mentions, is also a factor. Our Schwalbe Marathons are very harsh at 100 PSI. 70-80 PSI is a better ride - not sure just how low we can go without slowing down the bikes.

Currently working on how to quickly fold and strap the bikes (individually) when putting them in our lift back or SUV. The Dahon fold is really good - need to get BF's to where I don't mess up the finish when putting them in the car. The ease and quality of the BF ride is worth the little extra trouble in transport prep.

[pm124]

If you are running thin 120 PSI tires, some form of suspension really makes a difference. This is especially true if you are going to ride more than 50 miles at a stretch; you can't stand every time you hit a rough patch. Moreover, it teaches good riding technique. If you lift and push at the same time, you don't bob. If you think about it, bobbing occurs on an unsuspended bike as well, just to a much smaller extent. By training yourself to have a more circular motion, you'll develop better habits on any bike.

[Fat Boy]

Again, went with the NWT - price and foldability drove that decision (I fold it every day)......

So, the only downside an an Air Friday I really see is the ease of folding, which may not be an issue for you. The flex is obviously intended - that's why it's designed that way. From what I've seen, it just means that you have to have a smooth pedal stroke. Of course, you should have that regardless of the bike, the AF just magnifies issues.

Once I get the bike ready to ride, I leave it that way for several days. I have a Downtube right now. I could fold it up if I wanted to, but there's just no real reason for me to because of how I use it.

I am contemplating a long ride (for me) next summer (350+ miles) that would have to be on a folder, and it would have to happen in a 3 day time period, so I'd need to be reasonably fast. Doing that on the DT would be a little heroic for my tastes, but on my road bike I don't think it would be that big of a deal physically (beyond the obvious downside(upside?) of 3 century plus days back to back).

Anyway, I'm looking for something that I can make some time on and is a folder. The Pacific Reach and AirFriday are the 2 bikes that seem to fill that bill for me right now.

[jur]

... I don't think it would be that big of a deal physically (beyond the obvious downside(upside?) of 3 century plus days back to back)....

That would be neither upside or downside, but backside. :D

[Fat Boy]

That would be neither upside or downside, but backside. :D

No kidding!!!!! I have a feeling if I do that, **everything** would be hurting except my ego, if I made it.

[dorkypants]

I've owned and ridden an Air Friday since 2004 and am very happy with it. You do have to have a fairly smooth pedal stroke to avoid bobbing, although when you order a new one the factory does tune the stiffness of the Ti boom tube according to your preferences for ride stiffness. I've gotten pretty good at spinning really fast, as I occasionally have to.

You can get a Shimano Capreo 9-speed hub/cassette, which goes 9-26 and gives you a pretty decent low and high with a standard 39x53 double. You can also get larger chainrings, though it gets expensive. I have a 9-speed Ultegra with 39x53 front and 11-23 back. When you work the numbers it's close to having a 700c bike with a compact double, if a bit lower. It's hard work keeping up with a fast peloton in the flats, but it climbs fine for a 21 lb. bike (you can get the weight down to around 17 lb. by spending lots of money on carbon components), and I can go faster on descents than most riders on full-sized bikes.

Both the sales process and post-sales support from the factory have been exemplary.

Michael Khaw

[rhenning]

I am an early Bike Friday client. I bought one of their test bikes in 1992 or 93. It is Pocket Rocket serial number 2. It is what Bike Friday calls a classic frame with a two tube center frame. I has been a great bike although I have tweaked to my liking. I seem to do that with all my bikes. I believe the only bike in their line that I would up grade it to is one of the Air bikes. I have ridden several of the Air bikes and was very satified with them. Maybe I am just to cheap to do the upgrade. My wife who is not quite 5' 2" and has always had bike fit problems finally followed my advice and about 1 year ago bought a Pocket Crusoe Petite and it is the first bike that has ever fit her out of the box perfectly. She has had it out of the country twice and is able to take it total apart by herself. It is the first bike she feels she can repair if necessary on the road. The people at Bike Friday are wonderful people to deal with from the owners to the builders to the sales people. In all owning a Friday is a great experience. Roger

[Fat Boy]

Well, I bought it. I'm hoping it'll work for me and if it doesn't, I think I can get out of it for about what I got into it at. I'll be modding some of the parts on it, but I do that on every bike, so......

Anyway, I gave my Downtube to my nephew who is a Marine at Camp Pendleton (on loan), and I'm off to Friday-world. I'll give you all the poop when I've figured it out.

[jur]

Fatboy, off topic, I remember you took your DT's suspension apart. Can you describe how - were there any tricks? I have had a crack at my Mini's removed a bolt but the rest seems stuck. It's not urgent, it's not tight or binding, I just want to check it out for possioble improvement.

[Fat Boy]

Jur,

My DT is a FS IX, so it might be quite a bit different from what you have, but here's what I found.

The swingarm rides on 2 nylon (Delrin?) bushings that takes radial and axial loads. The axle that supports the bushing comes together in the middle with a male/female mating surface. On mine, there was something like 1mm of crush on the nylon bushings. Because of this, there was very little movement on the swingarm. That was how I noticed it, actually. I removed the shock and still could barely move the swingarm. Anyway, by putting a spacer in the middle of the axle mating area, I reduced the crush to about .2mm. This was enough to allow the swingarm to move, but not allow 'too much' side to side motion. Keep in mind, the more crush you have, the 'tighter' the ride will feel, but as shipped, you might as well have a hardtail. In fast corners or when pedaling hard, I can feel some frame flex. I've never felt this on any other bike, so I'm not too sensitive to it. I'm used to it, and it doesn't seem like that big of a deal at this point.

I don't know if the Mini is anything like the FS. It might be a completely different beast.

[scarabeoguy]

I have a Bike Friday Air Glide and NWT. I can only comment that the Air Glide is very comfortable ad pretty much elliminates all road shock especially frm the rear wheels. Of all my bicycles big and small wheel the Air Glide is the most comfortable ane this includes recumbents that I've owned.

[Fat Boy]

OK, I stuck my Air Friday together last night and cruised around the 'hood.

First, coming out of the suitcase, it's not a 'folder' as much as it is an easy to pack bike. The rear triangle swings around and such, but ultimately, it's a different sort of beast than my DT in terms of packing. Having said that, it probably went together quicker than my DT when it was packed in the F'Lite case. I'm going to get a tote bag and see how I can get it small without actually packing it in the suitcase. In this respect, I'm going to have to say that the DT probably gets the nod for quick packing ability in the softside case.

So, once I stuck it all together, I took on on a ride. The seating position is very similar to my road bike, as is the overall feel. It's definitely a different beast than the DT. It has a completely different vibe. This thing wants to go FAST.

Remember, I changed my DT gearing to a 53 tooth chainring. Well, this has a double on the front (Shimano 600 groupset). The gearing is 62 / 52. That's right, folks, it's pretty steep. At first I pedaled around on the 52. Believe it or not, it felt too short. The 62 in the middle of the cassette felt like what I would actually ride on this bike. It is essentially the difference between mountain bike and road bike gearing. The 451 tires roll very free. The rear wheel has a little wobble which truing will fix, but you can tell that this thing is meant for speed.

I didn't ride over anything rough, so it was hard for me to really evaluate the seat boom. I bounced on it a little and it flexes (duh!). When I was pedaling, though, I didn't notice any bobbing at all. Probably due to my ultra-buttery-smooth pedaling technique......or just that I don't notice that type of thing. It is _nothing_ like having a rear suspension bob. On a short jump out of the saddle, it just squirted forward. The frame didn't move around underneath me, which is a big step forward compared to the DT FS.

So there are things I want to change and fix up, but overall, I'm glad I bought the Friday. I think it's gonna be a real good friend. Oh, ya, at it's only about 21 pounds. Not as light as my road bike, but a lot lighter than the DT.

Ebay is a wonderful thing.

[spambait11]

The 62 in the middle of the cassette felt like what I would actually ride on this bike.
This is endemic to folding bikes in general without the Capreo option. I would also agree that anything in the 60T range makes a folding bike feel more like a full-size bike in terms of gearing, but the problem is that 60T rings on a folding bike make the bike look out of proportion. :p

Oh well. You wanted speed and comfort anyway. Can't go wrong with a Bike Friday. By the way, seems like it fits you very well. You really got lucky.

[Bacciagalupe]

So can you adjust the stiffness/suspension on the fly? Or is it that they will put the tube in a different spot to make it more or less bouncy?

[Fat Boy]

Size wise, the bike was within a cm of what I would have ordered for myself new, so I was pretty confident on getting it. You're right, the gearing *looks* weird, but in use, I bet it's more efficient than running a Capreo cassette. a 9 and 10 tooth cog is just a bit too small for me to be comfortable with. I will probably change the cassette and small chainring. Right now the cassette is an 11-23, and my 'granny' gear is 46 gear-inches. That's pretty steep. Hopefully I can pull the small chainring down to a 48 or 50 and use an 11-27 cassette. That will get me down to 36 gear inches in the 'granny' and still keep the 114 at the top end. The trick to that is going to be to get all the derailleurs to play well together.

You can't adjust the stiffness on the fly. You can just change the insertion depth of the seat boom. I haven't played with that, so I don't know how much softer it gets. Apparently, there is something else that they use with the boom to stiffen the ride if you want.

It's one of those things I'll just have to experiment with, but I don't see it being a big deal.

[gazer]

Sounds awesome. Enjoy!

[rhenning]

The only way to change the stiffness is to replace the seat tube with a thicker or thinner tube. On my Pocket Rocket I use an 11-28 8 speed in the back and a 46-60 in the front. I would agree I that I spend alot of time in the 60. This is a picture of a "Classic Friday". Roger

[Fat Boy]

The only way to change the stiffness is to replace the seat tube with a thicker or thinner tube.

OK, that makes sense. I thought maybe you could run the seat boom more or less 'engaged' in the chassis. It seemed to me that running it less 'engaged' would be softer, but a little hard on the clamp, so I didn't try it. Changing the whole seat boom is a better way to go about it.

I think your gearing is probably what I would have done if I was ordering it new. What is your shifter / derailleur setup. I would like to run the same cassette basically the exact same lash-up but 2 teeth taller on the chain ring (since I already have a 62).

[rhenning]

The shifters are Shimano 8 speed bar-ends and the derailluers are 8 speed Ultegras front and rear. The drivetrain is about mid 1990s amd has worked so well I never saw a reason to change it. The highest gear is 109 gear inches and the lowest is 32 gear inches. I did tweak it a bit when I first got the bike. Changed from a 12-24 cassette to the 11-28. Roger

[Fat Boy]

After talking with Hugh from BF, I've found out some more info about my bike. It's a late 90's vintage. The shifters are 9 speed 600 (Ultegra). The cassette is an 8 speed cassette, which caused me to scratch my head. It turns out it's actually a 9 speed cassette with the biggest cog left out. That gives it a narrow stack height and the 9 speed spacing, but 1 fewer gear. It also explains the 11-23 8-speed cassette, which isn't supposed to exist. I'm going to get an 11-32 9 speed cassette, ditch the 32 and end up with an 11-28. That will give me 114 gear inches on the top and with a 48 small chainring will give me about 35 on the bottom.

All in all, it should be a pretty sweet runner after I get done playing with it.

[awetmore]

When buying the 11-32 make sure that you get a lower level one that doesn't use a spider or carrier for the largest cogs. You'll need to drill out the rivets that holds the cassette together.

Cheaper SRAM or Shimano cassettes make a good choice.

Bike Friday did the 8 on 9 thing to get 8 speeds on the 3x7 hubs before the DualDrive came out. I think it's a good solution, it gives you wide range gearing but lets you get wheels with less dish. A 135mm wheel built for a 7sp width freehub is close to dishless.

[Fat Boy]

OK, I've had 2 somewhat short rides on my Air Friday, so I'm going to do a little bit of a review. I have 2 other bikes that I'm going to compare it with, neither of which is really a good comparison. The first is my Downtube FS IX, the second is my Cannondale road bike.

1. I gave BF a call and talked to them about my bike. After I gave them the serial number, they were able to tell me about the original owner, and all sorts of stuff about the bike. It's pretty impressive the records they keep. Hugh was the guy I talked to and he had all sorts of advice for me. Keep in mind, I bought the bike used...BF hasn't made of dime off me.....but they will. If you are buying a used Friday, get the serial number and talk to someone at BF about the bike. They'll probably know a lot about it.

2. My bike is a 1997 model. It has Shimano 600 (Ultegra) components. The bike itself doesn't really look like it has that many miles. Everything feels pretty tight and I don't notice many squeaks or areas of concern. It seems to have been well taken care of. It's pretty amazing that a 10 year old bike has held it's value as well as this one has. I think that is the biggest testament of the BF quality. If you were to buy a $20k car in 1997, it might be worth $5k now. I'd say I paid about 1/2 of what it was originally purchased for. It's held it's value well.

The 600 shifters take a lot of motion to change gears. I think that's just part of the design, but that's the biggest thing I notice about it compared to my road bike with newer Ultegra components.

3. I was concerned about the Air Friday seat beam. People talked about the bouncing that you can get into with them. Well, it does exist. At certain cadences, the beam does bounce a little. That cadence is a bit above what I normally ride at (it happens at maybe 110 rpm), so I only hit is when going downhill and I should shift. The beam really smooths out of the road. I road for 45 minutes on Tuesday and Wednesday on an unoccupied car racetrack. No traffic, but it's a little bumpy. That beam really soaks the bumps up. It also seems to soak up the stuff from the front end as well as the rear. Having said that, it doesn't feel like it soaks it up in the same manner that a suspension bike does. It's as smooth as my DT FS over bumps, but it does so in a much more controlled manner. The DT seems to 'pop off' over bumps a lot. This doesn't. I think because the pedaling loads contribute to the problem on the DT.

I didn't have any big hills to climb, but if I did, I'd guess that there is a fair bit of flex in the handlebar/stem area. It's fine when you're just cruising (even at road bike speeds), but in a sprint or on a steep hill out of the saddle I could see it being an issue. The rear triangle / frame is pretty stinkin' stiff. The actual frame of the bike is pretty solid. In a completely unfair comparison, the DT frame moves around _a lot_ more than this does. I've always felt like my DT frame clamp was pretty solid, but the swingarm is an issue. Like I've said many times, if I were to do it over, I'd have gotten a hardtail DT.

4. The Downtube folds faster and more completely. It wins this competition hands down. The Air Friday seat beam slides out of the frame after loosening a couple bolts, and then the rear triangle folds around after undoing another bolt. All in all, I had it in my car trunk in about 2 minutes without taking the handlebars off (2 more bolts for the handlbars and a QR for the stem). The DT would have taken 20 seconds and included the handlebar fold. The difference of this is that the Friday is more of a 'packable' bike than a 'folder' that you'd use on a daily basis on a train. They're meant for different uses. The Friday fits better in a suitcase for air travel because it's disassembly is more complete and designed around that criteria. The DT is quicker and more meant to stick in a bag and hide on a metro train. In this they are just different horses for different courses.

5. The Friday is a fast bike. Forget fast folder, it's a fast bike. I'm not sure if I'm a quite as fast and on my Cannondale, but it's got to be close. The 451 tires roll smoothly and beg to be ridden at full speed. The gearing is good road gearing. I'd be just fine on a group ride with all varieties of high dollar road bikes. I'm one of those that don't believe smaller tires are faster, but I will say that these are about as close as you're going to get to a 700 wheel.

6. At medium speeds (Maybe, 8-12 mph) the DT is probably the better handling bike. It feels maneuverable, but not twitchy. At that speed, the Friday is twitchy. You're in a road bike posture, with the front having a lot of weight on it. The front feels twitchy compared to the more upright position of the DT. Once you get going, the Friday smooths out nicely. At around 20 mph it's handling is similar to my road bike and the ride is smoother. I think this is a bit of a testament to how well thought out the DT geometry really it. In the range of speed that a DT spends most of it's time, it's a very nice handling bike. When trying to make time on a DT, though, I'd only get to 15-16 mph. On the Friday it's going to be 19-20 for a similar ride.

7. By having suspension front and rear the DT has some pretenses of being an off-road bike, which it's not. The Friday makes no bones about it. Don't ride me anywhere but on pavement.

So there you go. That's what I've figured out about my bike so far. I can see upgrading to newer Ultegra shifters and new tires (the old ones are showing minor dry rot). The gearing has already been discussed, but that's about it. Oh ya, and a seat. Right now it has a Bontrager that I don't care for. I'll need a Terry Fly to make me happy.

So there we go.

[rhenning]

Fat Boy I think the twitchyness at slow speed comes from the small light wheels. With less centrfugal force than 700c wheels the steering turns much quicker with the same input on the handlebars. As speed increases you get more centifugal force and that feeling goes away. I have let a lot of people try my Pocker Rocket and always warn them that it will be twitchy at first. Most who have ridden it more than 10 miles have agreed with that. They say they do not notice the twitchyness after riding yhay distance. Roger

[jur]

Fat Boy I think the twitchyness at slow speed comes from the small light wheels. With less centrfugal force than 700c wheels the steering turns much quicker with the same input on the handlebars. As speed increases you get more centifugal force and that feeling goes away. I have let a lot of people try my Pocker Rocket and always warn them that it will be twitchy at first. Most who have ridden it more than 10 miles have agreed with that. They say they do not notice the twitchyness after riding yhay distance. RogerI used to think along those lines too. But I wonder if is not rather the angular moment around the steering axis which determines the twitchiness. Obviously a big wheel has much bigger angular steering moment, so no twitchiness even at slow speeds.

Reduction of twitchiness at high speed could also be ascribed to the effect of trail. Likewise tiller effect.

[rhenning]

Jur in science class did you ever do the experiment of holding spinning bicycle wheels of different sizes by the axles and trying to change the direction of the wheel quickly. It is amazing how much easier it is to do a 20 inch wheel than a 27 inch wheel. Since most bikes people ride have bigger wheels. They naturally get used to pushing with a given amount of force to turn the bike. When I have been riding my 700 wheel bike and then get on my Rocket the same amount of force that would put me in a gentle turn on the 700 bike will cause a sharp turn on the Friday. It just takes a mile or so to get used to it. I will say mine is a little squirely on a fast (35MPH) down hill with a rumbly road. The bike I have is a very early production bike and I have ridden newer ones on the same road and they handle it better. Roger

[Fat Boy]

I'm sure the small, light wheels are part of the issue. They just don't have much gyroscopic effect. Beyond that, there is some issue of steering geometry. At low speeds, you steer by turning the handlebars. At higher speeds, you turn primarily by leaning. I think that because of the road bike geometry you tend to have a lot of weight forward on the Friday when you're at the 'turn by steering' speeds as opposed to the more upright position of the DT. This coupled with small high pressure tires make for a quick response.

When you get to the 'turn by leaning' speeds, everything acts fairly similar to any other road bike. It acts plenty quickly, I never tried to ride no-handed, but it seems like it'd be tough to keep in rolling in a straight line.